PDA

View Full Version : How long will Griffey be in the 3 hole?



George Foster
07-23-2006, 10:52 PM
With a batting avg. under .250 and an OBP of .296 (worst in MLB or one of the worst for a 3 hole hitter) how long will he remain batting third? What will it take? It is time for this organization and Griffey to realize his old numbers will never happen again. This is now not the Griffey that was in Seattle. He has shown signs of greatness this year with some clutch hits and catches, but he should not be batting third, it's hurting the Reds production. How can he protect anybody when he won't take a walk or make the defense play honest by hitting it to left or laying down a bunt for a easy hit down third? Why not extend the inning and let the remaining line-up have a chance?

Cedric
07-23-2006, 10:54 PM
Never happen again? He had a very solid year last year.

He will break out very soon and be fine. He's just not walking right now, pressing.

redsfan30
07-23-2006, 10:54 PM
Griffey won't be dropped out of the three hole. Just won't happen.

Marc D
07-23-2006, 11:00 PM
How long will Griffey be in the 3 hole?

As long as Narron draws a breath.

George Foster
07-23-2006, 11:02 PM
Never happen again? He had a very solid year last year.

He will break out very soon and be fine. He's just not walking right now, pressing.

We were out of contention last year. Pitchers pitch a lot differently with a muli run lead than in "a game." You can make a real argument that a lot of his production was because a pitcher that has a lead, throws a lot more strikes, trying not to beat themselves with walks. My real concern is his OBP...it's really bad.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:04 PM
As long as Narron draws a breath.I'd say we have a winner

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:10 PM
I'd say we have a winner

It's pretty obvious. Who else are you going to hit in the 3 hole?

Narron is doing what every manager would do, just gotta hope Griffey breaks out.

TOBTTReds
07-23-2006, 11:11 PM
As long as Narron draws a breath.

I agree. No one has mentioned that these struggles started when Dunn moved in front of him. Aurilia has been "protecting" Jr. He gets nothing to hit. Put Dunn behind him, and Jr. hits. Put Jr. behind Dunn, and Dunn hits. We need another good bat to protect him right now, and Richie does not strike fear into opposing pitchers right now.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:13 PM
It's pretty obvious. Who else are you going to hit in the 3 hole? by the numbers, the answer is pick a name out of a hat. The easy answer is move someone into the 2 hole and everyone down a slot.

If it was me

Freel
Hatty
Dunn
EE
Jr
Ross
Phillips
Clayton

against LHP
Freel
Phillips
Dunn
EE
Jr
Ross
RA
Clayton

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:15 PM
Jr is struggling because he is up there hacking at pitchers pitches early in the count and getting himself out. Until he changes his approach little is going to change. I think he is pressing and needs to relax and see more pitches

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:16 PM
He's pressing. He was hitting .300 and his obp was fine about a month ago.

I assume he will relax and get right back into the flow of things soon.

westofyou
07-23-2006, 11:17 PM
No one has mentioned that these struggles started when Dunn moved in front of him. Aurilia has been "protecting" Jr. He gets nothing to hit.

Maybe because they started a long time ago?

.255/.300/.491 on 6-1-06
.240/.293/.491/ on 7-21-06

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:19 PM
Until Jr quits getting himself out on bad pitches it won't get any better. Without the hits he is worthless up in the order because of so few walks.

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:20 PM
Maybe because they started a long time ago?

.255/.300/.491 on 6-1-06
.240/.293/.491/ on 7-21-06

Weird season.

Griffey was .255/.300/.491 on 6-1 and by 6-6 he was .298/352/573.

Now he's back down to .255.

Here is to hoping that wasn't just one hot week.

Marc D
07-23-2006, 11:22 PM
It's pretty obvious. Who else are you going to hit in the 3 hole?

Narron is doing what every manager would do, just gotta hope Griffey breaks out.

RF Freel/Deno
2b Phillips
LF Dunn
3b Aurilia (I tasted stomach bile typing that)
CF Griffey
1b Hatte
C Ross/LaRue
SS whoever

Flip BP and Hatte if you want, but why not give that a shot for a while? Or how about simply giving JR a day off or two? Instead Narron platoons two guys in RF that are both better CF's than Griffey while JR does a Ripken impersonation lately. Narron's the type that would try and push a rope.

alloverjr
07-23-2006, 11:23 PM
It's pretty obvious. Who else are you going to hit in the 3 hole?

Narron is doing what every manager would do, just gotta hope Griffey breaks out.

Not sure EVERY manager would leave him there. Minimally I'd stick Encarnacion in the 3 hole and move Griffey down to 4. Ross, when healthy, would get time at 5, Hat 6th, BP 7th and then whatever offensive monster is playing SS 8th. Jr ideally should be moved even further down, but this offense doesn't really have a lot of options.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Now he's back down to .255.

Here is to hoping that wasn't just one hot week.after today he is .244 with .296OBP and the hot week is getting further and further in the distance. He needs to be dropped in the order and if they bat him behind guys who get on base a lot (Freel, Hatty, Dunn and EE) he would get even more RBI opps without his OBP hurting as much.

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:26 PM
I'm gonna ride Griffey and hope he turns it around in front of Dunn.

Dunn should be hitting behind Griffey.

Griffey is swinging early in the count because he doesn't trust his bat speed right now. He's also pressing because he hasn't seen many good pitches to hit because of Rich Aurilia behind him. Every at bat he's probably thinking that first pitch is all he is gonna get good to hit.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm gonna ride Griffey and hope he turns it around in front of Dunn.

Dunn should be hitting behind Griffey.Jr's problem is his approach not who is hitting behind him. During his hot week at the beginning of June and then the beginning of July RA batted behind Jr a lot more than Dunn did. The idea is to give the pitcher a chance to make a mistake, not hack at the first strike you see.

LINEDRIVER
07-23-2006, 11:33 PM
Griff Sr has recently advised Jr as to what he seems to be doing wrong so hopefully Jr will get it going very soon.

I seem to remember a batting order problem with Joe Morgan in the late 70's. Did some checking and found Morgan hit just .254 as a third-place hitter in 87 games in 1978 for the Reds. The almost 35-year-old Morgan was moved to the #2 hole in the lineup where he really sucked with a .182 BA over August AND September. It drove me nuts!! But managers very rarely demote the onetime superstars to an embarrassing spot in the batting order.

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:34 PM
Jr's problem is his approach not who is hitting behind him. During his hot week at the beginning of June and then the beginning of July RA batted behind Jr a lot more than Dunn did. The idea is to give the pitcher a chance to make a mistake, not hack at the first strike you see.

So his approach might not be based on who is hitting behind him? BS.

You think we on Redszone are the only people that realize Rich shouldn't be in the cleanup spot? Hell no. Griffey get's it, and I bet it helped foul up his approach at the plate.

And I'm by no means saying it's the only reason Griffey might be struggling. But I think it's a valid arguement that his slot in front of Rich is changing his mentality at the plate.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:38 PM
So his approach might not be based on who is hitting behind him? BS.Let's ignore the data since one doesn't like it and go with the anecdotal. That is right up Jerry's alley.

westofyou
07-23-2006, 11:38 PM
Griffey is swinging early in the count because he doesn't trust his bat speed right now. Actually he's been feasting on the first pitch for his whole career, something like 13% of his PA's involve a first pitch swings with a result, problem is he was raking for his career at around 1.000 OPS, and now he's clocking in at .599.

Marc D
07-23-2006, 11:39 PM
Here' a crazy idea, ego's and managers bias aside:

RF Freel
CF Deno
1b Dunn
3b EE
LF JR
2b Phillips
C Ross
SS dejour

Package Aurilia, Hatteberg and LaRue for pitching help. Your now razor thin but better defensively in the OF and at least the same on the IF.

If Deno can't hit you minimise the liability by making him the sac bunt champion of the world and play a good defensive CF.

If Jr turns it around you adjust the batting order but that would be my team for the last 60 games or so.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:41 PM
If it was all about a lack of protection for Jr he would be walking and not hacking.

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:44 PM
If it was all about a lack of protection for Jr he would be walking and not hacking.

Griffey has always been a free swinger. He's just going a little overboard right now because he's pressing.

If you think Griffey is done that's fine, we'll just have to wait and see.

My contention is the Reds can't win without Ken Griffey Jr in this lineup producing. So the best way to do that is put him in front of Dunn and let him sink or swim.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:49 PM
If you think Griffey is done that's fine, we'll just have to wait and see.I have never said that Jr is done, however, at his age is a concern. The issue is addressing the some of the worst #3 hole numbers in baseball. For whatever reason his BB rate is down 50% and his numbers are nosediving. Keeping him in the 3 hole and ignoring the problem just exacerbates the offensive problems this team is having. The smart play would be to move him down to where his lack of OBP hurts a lot less and where his RBI opps will likely increase.

flyer85
07-23-2006, 11:53 PM
This team has 4 really good OBPs batters (Freel, Hatty, Dunn and EE). Those guys really ought to be at the top of the order.

Cedric
07-23-2006, 11:57 PM
This team has 4 really good OBPs batters (Freel, Hatty, Dunn and EE). Those guys really ought to be at the top of the order.

Narron doesn't live in this perfect statistical world we all want him to, he actually has to deal with real players and real ego's. He might realize how important Ken Griffey Jr is to this team and maybe he expects Griffey to break out soon.

I've criticized Jerry a lot and will continue to about things, but not this.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:02 AM
He might realize how important Ken Griffey Jr is to this team and maybe he expects Griffey to break out soon. The point is, and what you're missing, is Jr would likely be even more valuable in the #5 hole because he would get even more RBI opportunities.

Pencilling in a name in a spot simple because of egos would be stupidity of the highest order and would tell me that the manager would rather keep people happy than win.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:02 AM
Narron doesn't live in this perfect statistical worldI'd say he lives in a completely anecdotal world.

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:04 AM
The point is, and what you're missing, is Jr would likely be even more valuable in the #5 hole because he would get even more RBI opportunities.

Pencilling in a name in a spot simple because of egos would be stupidity of the highest order and would tell me that the manager would rather keep people happy than win.

I didn't fall off the turnip truck coming home from the hospital, I understand the reasonings for putting Griffey in the #5 hole. I just believe that Narron has more things to juggle than you can imagine. And I believe Griffey still has a better chance to break out of this slump right where he is. Hitting in front of Edwin or Dunn though.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:10 AM
I didn't fall off the turnip truck coming home from the hospital, I understand the reasonings for putting Griffey in the #5 hole. then you should realize that the 5 hole is the spot because in that spot whether his BB rate comes back up or not really doesn't matter, in the #3 hole it certainly does. Jr's BA will likely rise but there have to be serious doubts about the walk rate. It is a no brainer to put him the spot to take adavantage of his numbers regardless of whether his BB rate rebounds this season.

This isn't about maximizing Jrs numbers, it is about putting this team in the best possible position to succeed given the current situation. Those two may coincide but they may not.

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:12 AM
then you should realize that the 5 hole is the spot because in that spot whether his BB rate comes back up or not really doesn't matter, in the #3 hole it certainly does. Jr's BA will likely rise but there have to be serious doubts about the walk rate. It is a no brainer to put him the spot to take adavantage of his numbers regardless of whether his BB rate rebounds this season.

Again, no brainer in terms of what? A video game?

Jerry Narron has ego's and a clubhouse to deal with.

I don't think it's a slam dunk move anyway, but it's not that simple and you know this.

This is a very important player to this team and a VERY sensitive person. Jerry Narron is a players manager and maybe he's making a small concession to keep the clubhouse in good spirits.

It's a long season.

KronoRed
07-24-2006, 12:12 AM
I would not slide Dunn behind JR to give him protection, if Dunn does well in front of JR leave it as is.

Oh and JR will bat 3rd till 2009

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:15 AM
Again, no brainer in terms of what? A video game?

Jerry Narron has ego's and a clubhouse to deal with.

I don't think it's a slam dunk move anyway, but it's not that simple and you know this.So then Narron loses either way. He gives in to egos and doesn't put his team in the best situation to win or he doesn't play favorites and alienates certain players. I would say the smart play is go all out to win and if you do there will be more job security there than losing.

I have no doubt that aging superstars who have lost some skills but not their egos are hard to deal with but that comes with the territory.

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:17 AM
So then Narron loses either way. He gives in to egos and doesn't put his team in the best situation to win or he doesn't play favorites and alienates certain players. I would say the smart play is go all out to win and if you do there will be more job security there than losing.

I have no doubt that aging superstars who have lost some skills but not their egos are hard to deal with but that comes with the territory.

He only loses if Griffey doesn't turn it around. Because at this point we are still playing relatively well.

We are just gonna have to wait and see if Jerry is right.

LINEDRIVER
07-24-2006, 12:18 AM
Griff Sr has recently advised Jr as to what he seems to be doing wrong so hopefully Jr will get it going very soon.

I seem to remember a batting order problem with Joe Morgan in the late 70's. Did some checking and found Morgan hit just .254 as a third-place hitter in 87 games in 1978 for the Reds. The almost 35-year-old Morgan was moved to the #2 hole in the lineup where he really sucked with a .182 BA over August AND September. It drove me nuts!! But managers very rarely demote the onetime superstars to an embarrassing spot in the batting order.

Willie Mays, who was making a fool of himself at the age of 42 with the 1973 Mets, started about 60-70 games as the centerfielder. He batted .211 that year and hit first or third in the line-up.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:20 AM
He only loses if Griffey doesn't turn it around. Because at this point we are still playing relatively well. that -13 run differential is a huge red flag that this team is likely more smoke and mirrors than legit playoff contender. The Reds margin for error from this point forward is extremely small.

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:21 AM
Funny you bring up Mays and 73.

I've read countless things on that 73 Mets team and almost every player speaks on how incredibly important Mays was to that team.

Making a fool of himself? Baseball is a lot more than just a friggin batting average or ops.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:23 AM
We are just gonna have to wait and see if Jerry is right.I'd still say the smart play is to put a guy in a position where the OBP rebound really doesn't matter, that way you get the potential upside without all the downside risk. But then again Narron probably thinks risk mitigation is a new version of an old board game.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:26 AM
Funny you bring up Mays and 73.

I've read countless things on that 73 Mets team and almost every player speaks on how incredibly important Mays was to that team.

Making a fool of himself? Baseball is a lot more than just a friggin batting average or ops.that 73 Mets team was all about great starting pitching(Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, etc)

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:28 AM
On the field.

You might not think clubhouse type things matter, I sure as hell do. And apparently the whole Mets team that year did.

If you don't believe me I can link many articles where pitchers and hitters alike spoke on the importance of Willie Mays to that team.

Clubhouse things matter, I don't care what anyone else says.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:33 AM
Clubhouse things matter, I don't care what anyone else says.I'm sure the 72-74 As who beat those happy 73 Mets would beg to differ. Those As disliked each other and all hated the manager.

Cedric
07-24-2006, 12:35 AM
Would those Mets even gotten there? Talent overrides anything, but some other teams rely on other means.

Not every case is the same. It sure can matter.

George Foster
07-24-2006, 12:41 AM
On the field.

You might not think clubhouse type things matter, I sure as hell do. And apparently the whole Mets team that year did.

If you don't believe me I can link many articles where pitchers and hitters alike spoke on the importance of Willie Mays to that team.

Clubhouse things matter, I don't care what anyone else says.

"The clubhouse type things" will take care of themselves if they win. Putting this team in position to win should be Narrons only concern. If Jr.'s numbers go up in the 5th hole, he will "get happy again" real quick. In the short term he might sulk, but when he starts producing....he'll quit. I hope Jr. puts winning above any personal pride in batting 3rd, and he should not have the final say.

LINEDRIVER
07-24-2006, 01:17 AM
My point was that managers rarely demote the onetime superstars to what would be considered an embarrassing spot in the batting order. Hopefully, most players are able to retire before embarrassing themselves. Willie Mays is often used as an example of a ballplayer who hung around too long. Willie Mays was and is my all-time favorite baseball player. However, he really had no business on the field in '73 at the age of 42. He was hanging on with the Mets because he was trying to overcome the financial problems that he was experiencing in the late 60's and early 70's. Mays should not of been batting 1st or 3rd with the very limited skills he had left in 1973, no matter how much respect he had in the clubhouse. Mays was probably THEE leader in the '73 Mets locker room, however, his outfield play, especially in the '73 World Series was a sad subject of conversation for many baseball fans. It was a bad scene, a very sad scene, especially for those of us who grew up admiring him.

George Foster
07-26-2006, 11:30 PM
After tonight and Tuesday night, is there really a question?

flyer85
07-26-2006, 11:32 PM
If he is removed from the 3 spot it will be long after it ceases to matter

redsrule2500
07-27-2006, 12:07 AM
He must be taken out of the 3 hole.

Isn't he embarassed in front of the rest of the team when he clearly knows he shouldn't be there?

boobhat
07-27-2006, 10:29 AM
griffey is about to catch on fire, mark my words

westofyou
07-27-2006, 10:39 AM
griffey is about to catch on fire, mark my words
I'd settle for some smoke... right now it's been what sparklers are to firecrackers.

flyer85
07-27-2006, 11:15 AM
I'd settle for some smoke... right now it's been what sparklers are to firecrackers.what concerns me is the slump is not because of
a) poor luck of hitting the ball but right at people
or
b) just missing good pitches

Jr is swinging at bad pitches and making soft outs. If his approach doesn't change his results are unlikely to improve much.

redsfan30
07-27-2006, 11:20 AM
Griffey will come out of this, that's for sure. But for his sake, the Reds sake, and the fans sake he better start to come around quickly.

Big Klu
07-27-2006, 02:17 PM
I'd settle for some smoke... right now it's been what sparklers are to firecrackers.

Where's the good stuff, man?

http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/davidspadejoedirt.jpg

KronoRed
07-27-2006, 04:36 PM
I just wish he would walk some more, if you walk and slump at least you have the walks, if you don't do either..well it's ugly.

Highlifeman21
07-27-2006, 05:08 PM
This thread right here http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49086 says all you need to know about Griffey and why he shouldn't be in the 3 hole.

A lot of great information, and not much hope on the horizon for Griffey to right the ship.

Eric_Davis
07-27-2006, 05:37 PM
Ken Griffey, Jr is the worst #3 hitter in the Majors.

There are at least 70 hitters,.......just in the National League alone.....hitting better than him.

Eric_Davis
07-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Encarnacion or Hatteberg should be batting #3.

Out with the old, Junior, and in with the new.