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Reds Fanatic
07-25-2006, 11:06 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060725&content_id=1574747&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


HOUSTON -- In recent days and weeks, Internet bloggers have taken to posting "Free Edwin Encarnacion" messages.
Some fan blogs have even displayed a picture of the Reds third baseman behind bars. Many more fans have wondered why Encarnacion hasn't played more lately.

But no one has wondered more than Encarnacion himself.

"Yeah, it's tough. I don't know what's going on," Encarnacion said. "The thing is, when they give me an opportunity to play, I'll try to do my job and try to do the best I can. That's the best thing that can happen for me right now."

To that end, Encarnacion has held up his end of the bargain offensively. He entered Tuesday with a five-game hitting streak and batting .478 (11-for-23) with one homer and five RBIs over the last eight games he's played since he returned from the disabled list on July 6.

However, it was Rich Aurilia and his equally torrid bat that started again for Cincinnati on Tuesday. Aurilia, whose 14-game hitting streak ended Saturday as a pinch-hitter, has manned the hot corner for most of July. Encarnacion started three straight games, Thursday through Saturday.

Until he sprained his left ankle in early June, Encarnacion played every day. Manager Jerry Narron has never explained why the 23-year-old's playing time decreased, but he has made it clear all season he prefers solid defense. Encarnacion has committed a club-high 15 errors this season. That included one in his first game back from the DL, but none since. Aurilia has committed six errors combined at four positions.

"This is the first time that I have to come to the ballpark and check the lineup to see if I'm playing at all," said Encarnacion, who is batting .293 with seven homers and 41 RBIs this season. "The only thing I want is to win games. If we win games, everything will be all right."

Narron has been trying to find ways to keep the steady bats of Aurilia, Encarnacion and first baseman Scott Hatteberg in the lineup. Aurilia has played mostly third or first base this season, but he could shift to spot start in one of the middle infield spots.

"There's a chance of it," Narron said. "I came close to doing it Sunday. With [Juan] Castro and [Royce] Clayton, it's tough to do. I want to play one of them at short."

Brandon Phillips has been a fixture at second base, and Narron has been reluctant to rest his infield's best glove. But the skipper plans to make more use of Encarnacion.

"Eddie will definitely play tomorrow [against Houston lefty Andy Pettitte]," Narron said. "He'll definitely play either Thursday here or Friday in Milwaukee, maybe both."

princeton
07-25-2006, 11:09 PM
Aurilia has played mostly third or first base this season, but he could shift to spot start in one of the middle infield spots.

"There's a chance of it," Narron said. "I came close to doing it Sunday. With [Juan] Castro and [Royce] Clayton, it's tough to do. I want to play one of them at short."

Aurilia at short?

only if Sid Fernandez is pitching

flyer85
07-25-2006, 11:10 PM
Aurilia has played mostly third or first base this season, but he could shift to spot start in one of the middle infield spots.

"There's a chance of it," Narron said. "I came close to doing it Sunday. With [Juan] Castro and [Royce] Clayton, it's tough to do. I want to play one of them at short."

Aurilia at short?

only if Sid Fernandez is pitchingor Eric Milton

membengal
07-25-2006, 11:11 PM
So, again, to be clear, Narron is making EE the platoon guy who "definitely" plays against lefties, while Aurilia plays against lefties and righties, shifting between 1st and 3rd to stay in the lineup no matter what.

As the weeks wear on, it's still a choice I firmly disagree with...

Reds Fanatic
07-25-2006, 11:11 PM
The article just says middle infield. Aurilia at 2nd, Phillips at short and EE at 3rd is the lineup Narron should try.

Cyclone792
07-25-2006, 11:11 PM
I posted this in the game thread, but it's worth mentioning again ...

Encarnacion has been back on the roster and off the DL for 15 games this season. He's started exactly six of those games.

He's hitting .293/.386/.505, good for an .891 OPS and 6.88 RC/27, and I don't know of anyone that predicted that type of line out of him this season (close to that line, but not that high of an OBP). In 241 plate appearances, he has 21 doubles. That's one double every 11.47 plate appearances. Over a full season, that's in the neighborhood of about 57 doubles.

Heck, the all-time major league record for doubles in a single season is 67, which was set by Earl Webb way back in 1931. The last players to reach 60 or more doubles in a single season were Hall of Famers Joe Medwick (64 doubles) and Charlie Gehringer (60 doubles), both in 1936.

Here's a post from spring training from jmcclain19... http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=901782&postcount=33


As WOY pointed out, a great year for EdE would be around

.280AVG/.335OBP/.475SLG/.810OPS

Just so everyone has a point of reference here


2005 Stats

David Wright
.306AVG/.388OBP/.523SLG/.911OPS

Eric Chavez
.269AVG/.329OBP/.466SLG/.794OPS

Morgan Ensberg
.283AVG/.388OBP/.557SLG/.945OPS

Hank Blalock
.263AVG/.318OBP/.431SLG/.749OPS

Melvin Mora
.283AVG/.348OBP/.474SLG/.821OPS

If EdE puts up numbers close to these type of numbers every Reds fan should be doing cartwheels.

Yes, Aurilia's done a decent job, but he's still been outperformed quite a bit by Encarnacion in 2006. To say this is starting to get ridiculous with Encarnacion riding the bench is a bit of an understatement.

flyer85
07-25-2006, 11:13 PM
EE is not nearly as scrappy as Rich.

Heath
07-25-2006, 11:13 PM
I posted this in the game thread, but it's worth mentioning again ...

Encarnacion has been back on the roster and off the DL for 15 games this season. He's started exactly six of those games.

He's hitting .293/.386/.505, good for an .891 OPS and 6.88 RC/27, and I don't know of anyone that predicted that type of line out of him this season (close to that line, but not that high of an OBP). In 241 plate appearances, he has 21 doubles. That's one double every 11.47 plate appearances. Over a full season, that's in the neighborhood of about 57 doubles.

Heck, the all-time major league record for doubles in a single season is 67, which was set by Earl Webb way back in 1931. The last players to reach 60 or more doubles in a single season were Hall of Famers Joe Medwick (64 doubles) and Charlie Gehringer (60 doubles), both in 1936.

Here's a post from spring training from jmcclain19... http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=901782&postcount=33



Yes, Aurilia's done a decent job, but he's still been outperformed quite a bit by Encarnacion in 2006. To say this is starting to get ridiculous with Encarnacion riding the bench is a bit of an understatement.


Preaching to the choir again.

And Jerry Narron's not even capable of passing the offering plate.

KronoRed
07-25-2006, 11:16 PM
Jerry has too many vets.

flyer85
07-25-2006, 11:25 PM
Jerry has too many vets.or not enough depending on the point of view.

Tony Cloninger
07-25-2006, 11:27 PM
Damn you RA....start hitting like Doug Flynn, Tom Lawless, Junior Kennedy, German Barranca, Ed Crosby, Chico Ruiz.....or our all time favorite...
Mr. De La Hoz............ be a team player and suck....so EE can start.

Then......do your thing off the bench....so JN will figure..."Well, he is too valuable off the bench to start."

wally post
07-25-2006, 11:40 PM
Damn you RA....start hitting like Doug Flynn, Tom Lawless, Junior Kennedy, German Barranca, Ed Crosby, Chico Ruiz.....or our all time favorite...
Mr. De La Hoz............ be a team player and suck....so EE can start.

Then......do your thing off the bench....so JN will figure..."Well, he is too valuable off the bench to start."

Classic! (De La Hoz...)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:help:

Heath
07-26-2006, 12:06 AM
Classic! (De La Hoz...)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:help:

The board would have exploded if he said Rafael Santo Domingo.

remdog
07-26-2006, 12:07 AM
EE is the future for the Reds. With Aurilia the Reds live in the past---not to say that Rich hasn't done a good job. I know most folks here believe the Reds are in a pennant race and, so far, they are. It's great and I root for them to win every day. But the difference between EE and RA is so slight that I would rather have EE on the field and learning more and more and preparing for the future.

Keep kicking EE around and, when he becomes free agent eligible, he may remember the shabby treatment.

Rem

RANDY IN INDY
07-26-2006, 08:18 AM
Hate to disagree, Rem, but I figure he'll go to whoever offers him the most $$$$$$$$$$$$. :) That loyalty thing doesn't much exist these days. The best thing Encarnacion can do right now is take a bunch of ground balls every day in front of Jerry Narron and get that throwin' thing down.

BRM
07-26-2006, 09:16 AM
It's all about the defense.

Marc D
07-26-2006, 09:18 AM
EE is not nearly as scrappy as Rich.

But twice as classy. The young man seems to be handeling this a lot more like like a scrappy vet than Richie did when he was in the same boat last year. I seem to remember a lot of public complaining and clubhouse strife as opposed to EE's line of "The only thing I want is to win games. If we win games, everything will be all right."


You can't dislike a manager much more than I dislike Narron.

Heath
07-26-2006, 09:25 AM
I think Hal McCoy's leaning towards this kid.


Edwin Encarnacion isn't angry, just confused. Since coming off the disabled list July 6, he has played only eight games and hit safely in seven — 11-for-23 (.478), one homer, five RBIs.

He started Thursday against Milwaukee and had two hits and a walk before manager Jerry Narron pinch-hit for him in the seventh. He started Saturday and had two more hits.

But he didn't play Sunday and wasn't in Tuesday's lineup against Roger Clemens.

Asked if defense played into his decisions, Narron said: "Yes. And a lot of things factor into it."

Encarnacion is baffled, even though he realizes Rich Aurilia and Scott Hatteberg are hitting, too, making it difficult to squeeze three players into two positions. Narron said Encarnacion would start tonight and might start Thursday, too, then Friday in Milwaukee.

"He (Narron) hasn't talked to me, and all I can do is when I get the opportunity I have to do something with it," Encarnacion said. "I don't know what's going on, and it's hard for me, but I just try to do my job every day. I know when I play I'm OK because I do my work and then do my thing.

"But, yes, this is hard because I was playing before I got hurt, and I never expected it to be like this when I came back. But if we keep winning games, everything is going to be all right."

Asked if he might consider playing Aurilia at second base or shortstop so Encarnacion can play third and Hatteberg first, Narron said: "There is a chance of it. I came close Sunday — playing Aurilia at second. It isn't likely Richie would play short, not with Royce Clayton and Juan Castro playing short."

The line in bold is the most telling of Jerry Narron's managerial style. Without any communication between players and managers will cause distrust and strife. Narron's simply bullheaded or jealous.

Heath
07-26-2006, 09:26 AM
It's all about the defense.

Its easy to play defense when you can only go to your right one step and left one step and the rest of the balls bounce harmlessly to the outfield.

BRM
07-26-2006, 10:36 AM
Its easy to play defense when you can only go to your right one step and left one step and the rest of the balls bounce harmlessly to the outfield.

Jerry simply isn't comfortable with EE's defense. That's the biggest reason why RA is getting all the playing time right now IMO. Not that I agree with it mind you.

TeamBoone
07-26-2006, 02:25 PM
I don't think we really know what JN isn't comfortable with when it comes to EE. Errors? Yup. Because he has such good range. With more playing time, those errors will diminish. Are they costing games? I don't know; I didn't look it up. But I would think not... or not many if they are. I would also think his bat would make up for them (he's pretty much equally good against lefties and righties).

I would think that JN would have the decency to at least talk to EE about why he's not playing him, and it irks me greatly that he hasn't. Just hang the guy out to dry with absolutely no explanation. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.

I've often seen him lauded for his relationship with his players. Guess EE doesn't count because he rarely plays.

KronoRed
07-26-2006, 05:35 PM
Narron was a guy who never got more then 203 at bats in a season yet played for 8 years, he was a scrappy vet..perhaps he wants to make sure similar scrappy vets don't get left on the bench for prospects ;)

WMR
07-27-2006, 02:18 AM
Narron was a guy who never got more then 203 at bats in a season yet played for 8 years, he was a scrappy vet..perhaps he wants to make sure similar scrappy vets don't get left on the bench for prospects ;)

Can you really call EE a prospect anymore? The kid is the real deal. I see him as a young major-leaguer, a bona fide major leaguer ready and able type talent.

Prospect denotes something else, in my eyes.

WMR
07-27-2006, 02:28 AM
But twice as classy. The young man seems to be handeling this a lot more like like a scrappy vet than Richie did when he was in the same boat last year. I seem to remember a lot of public complaining and clubhouse strife as opposed to EE's line of "The only thing I want is to win games. If we win games, everything will be all right."


You can't dislike a manager much more than I dislike Narron.

::please allow me to stand up and applaud this post::

:thumbup:

KronoRed
07-27-2006, 04:11 AM
Can you really call EE a prospect anymore? The kid is the real deal. I see him as a young major-leaguer, a bona fide major leaguer ready and able type talent.

Prospect denotes something else, in my eyes.
To the Reds..he's still a prospect.

I'm not sure what it takes to be "proven", I think Dunn only arrived at that level in the past few years.

Ron Madden
07-27-2006, 04:17 AM
It's easy to see that Narron respects veteran players.

If Brandon Phillips wasn't brought in by Jerry's boss (WK) he would've been forever lost behind Womack and Ritchie at second base.

Narron preaches defense and professional at bats. He is an awful judge of defensive talent and never has had any clue about hitting or any understanding of run production.

Narron is 5 games above .500 since taking the job as Reds Manager.
The 2006 Reds have better talent than what Miley or even Boon had to work with. Marty, Faye, McCoy and Lancaster all sing the peaises of Jery Narron.

I just can't see it. :confused:

Marc D
07-27-2006, 09:31 AM
It's easy to see that Narron respects veteran players.

If Brandon Phillips wasn't brought in by Jerry's boss (WK) he would've been forever lost behind Womack and Ritchie at second base.

Narron preaches defense and professional at bats. He is an awful judge of defensive talent and never has had any clue about hitting or any understanding of run production.

Narron is 5 games above .500 since taking the job as Reds Manager.
The 2006 Reds have better talent than what Miley or even Boon had to work with. Marty, Faye, McCoy and Lancaster all sing the peaises of Jery Narron.

I just can't see it. :confused:

Just for a moment ponder this.

If EE and Phillips had not gotten off to such hot starts this year our current infield would most certainly be Hatteberg, Woemack, Clayton and Aurilia.

Even sadder than actually projecting that mental image into your own head is the fact, all kidding aside, our manager would be thrilled with that infield.

GAC
07-27-2006, 09:32 AM
Its easy to play defense when you can only go to your right one step and left one step and the rest of the balls bounce harmlessly to the outfield.

I have no problem on it - and even agree that EE should be getting more playing time at 3B -but this inference that RA is a 2x4 at 3B is kinda ridiculous IMO. This year at 3B, his Fielding %, ZR, and RF are superior to EE's. Now maybe there are more in-depth defensive stats that show differently. That's fine. But these accusations at RA's defense at 3rd are kinda funny.

The guy is not a board out there. I've seen him, and especially in the last few days, make some superb defensive plays at 3B.

And I don't think Clayton should be benched either!

He should be shot! ;)

KronoRed
07-27-2006, 04:39 PM
Nah...hang em.

Heath
07-27-2006, 04:43 PM
I have no problem on it - and even agree that EE should be getting more playing time at 3B -but this inference that RA is a 2x4 at 3B is kinda ridiculous IMO. This year at 3B, his Fielding %, ZR, and RF are superior to EE's. Now maybe there are more in-depth defensive stats that show differently. That's fine. But these accusations at RA's defense at 3rd are kinda funny.

GAC, my point is that Aurilia easily gets to some of the ground balls and others that Encarnacion gets are ones Aurilia can't even get to in his dreams. EdE makes the bad throws on the ROUTINE plays.

I would agree that Aurilia's numbers are superior to EdE, but he doesn't get to a lot of balls that EdE gets to. I'd rather have the effort and the ability of what EdE can do at 3rd as opposed to have Aurilia lunge at balls that should be picked by EdE.

Heath
07-27-2006, 04:46 PM
Just for a moment ponder this.

If EE and Phillips had not gotten off to such hot starts this year our current infield would most certainly be Hatteberg, Woemack, Clayton and Aurilia.

Even sadder than actually projecting that mental image into your own head is the fact, all kidding aside, our manager would be thrilled with that infield.

Even EdE's hot spring didn't exactly get a ringing endorsement from Narron.

I believe that Narron's jealousy and inability to communicate really will be his dowfall.

reds44
07-27-2006, 05:13 PM
But twice as classy. The young man seems to be handeling this a lot more like like a scrappy vet than Richie did when he was in the same boat last year. I seem to remember a lot of public complaining and clubhouse strife as opposed to EE's line of "The only thing I want is to win games. If we win games, everything will be all right."


You can't dislike a manager much more than I dislike Narron.
:clap: :clap:

KronoRed
07-27-2006, 05:28 PM
Hmm...Womack

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2006, 05:38 PM
Even EdE's hot spring didn't exactly get a ringing endorsement from Narron.

I believe that Narron's jealousy and inability to communicate really will be his dowfall.

Jealousy? I don't get it.

RFS62
07-27-2006, 05:48 PM
Man, you guys are really overcomplicating this thing.

It's about defense. Narron thinks he'll win more games with Rich over there, until he's satisfied that EE improves his throwing, or until Rich's bat cools off to the point that the defense doesn't matter.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2006, 06:01 PM
Man, you guys are really overcomplicating this thing.

It's about defense. Narron thinks he'll win more games with Rich over there, until he's satisfied that EE improves his throwing, or until Rich's bat cools off to the point that the defense doesn't matter.

That scenario would make too much sense, and doesn't have enough entanglement and conspiracy involved.;)

GAC
07-27-2006, 06:18 PM
That scenario would make too much sense, and doesn't have enough entanglement and conspiracy involved.;)

And the game threads would have nothing to talk about. ;)

Ltlabner
07-27-2006, 06:41 PM
That scenario would make too much sense, and doesn't have enough entanglement and conspiracy involved.

Carefull now Randy, you don't want to be accused of complaining...some here are very concerned with that, you know... ;)

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 06:50 PM
Man, you guys are really overcomplicating this thing.

It's about defense. Narron thinks he'll win more games with Rich over there, until he's satisfied that EE improves his throwing, or until Rich's bat cools off to the point that the defense doesn't matter.

Right, it's about defense, and that's the problem with Narron's line of thinking. What he's thinking is really less than optimal, IMO.

I shall explain why ;)

The defensive upgrade Aurilia provides over Encarnacion is avoiding errors, and I don't think anyone will argue that point. Based on pure fielding percentage, Aurilia's a better option at this point. It's likely more people will tend to favor Encarnacion over Aurilia as far as range and getting to balls, but I'll ignore that for now. We're just focusing on errors here ...

We have 60 games remaining this season. Based on the career fielding statistics for both Aurilia and Encarnacion, Aurilia would make approximately six fewer errors than Encarnacion over the full 60 games with regular time at third base.

To make things simpler, that's one error every 10 games.

Now, what's the linear run created value of a typical error? That's easy to figure out because Tango Tiger has already done the research for us (http://www.tangotiger.net/bsrexpl.html). According to pbp data, the linear run created value of the average error is 0.481. Let's just make it easy and call it 0.50 runs.

So now we have Aurilia making one fewer error every 10 games than Encarnacion with that one error holding a linear run created value of 0.50 runs. If Rich Aurilia played third base regularly for the remainder of the season, he would then save approximately three more runs defensively over Edwin Encarnacion via fewer errors.

Three runs in 60 games.

Now all you have to ask yourself is what would the linear run created value of Edwin Encarnacion's bat be over Rich Aurilia's bat over those same 60 games, especially including games against right-handed pitching.

It's not necessary to know the exact total, because we all already know that it'd be much more than just three runs.

Chip R
07-27-2006, 06:58 PM
Jealousy? I don't get it.

It is because EE is so handsome. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2006, 07:12 PM
It is because EE is so handsome. ;)

:laugh:

Cyclone, that's all impressive and such, but Richie's hittin' pretty good right now.;)

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 07:24 PM
Cyclone, that's all impressive and such, but Richie's hittin' pretty good right now.;)

Against southpaws, of course, but he's been doing that all season. He's just stepped it up another notch against them recently. I have no qualms with Aurilia getting ample playing time against lefties.

But he's hitting .239/.291/.365 on the season against righties, and not even his recent busting out party has improved those figures. While his bat's been a total luxury against lefties, it's leaving much to be desired against righties.

membengal
07-27-2006, 07:25 PM
:laugh:

Cyclone, that's all impressive and such, but Richie's hittin' pretty good right now.;)


Not well enough to make up the difference with EE, particularly against righties. They want to find some other place for Aurilia (like 2b with Phillips at ss)? Fine. But this team would be stronger if Narron would work a whole lot harder to get EE's bat in the line-up more than he is right now.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2006, 07:28 PM
You guys got a strong case of man love for the boy.:laugh: As long as Aurillia hits, I got no problem with him playing. Ride the hot hand.

flyer85
07-27-2006, 07:32 PM
You guys got a strong case of man love for the boy.:laugh: As long as Aurillia hits, I got no problem with him playing. Ride the hot hand.except that since the break EE is hotter than Rich.

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 07:34 PM
You guys got a strong case of man love for the boy.:laugh: As long as Aurillia hits, I got no problem with him playing. Ride the hot hand.

When the kid's gonna reach 50 two-baggers by the time he reaches one full season's worth of plate appearances, I want him in the lineup. In the Reds' history, they've had exactly two players hit 50 or more doubles in a season, and that's it (Robinson with 51 in 1962 and Rose with 51 in 1978). Tack on 60 walks in that one full season's worth of plate appearances, and it's a no-brainer. All that at the ages of 22 and 23 years old.

The problem with Aurilia is he isn't hitting right-handed pitching at all.

dougdirt
07-27-2006, 07:45 PM
When the kid's gonna reach 50 two-baggers by the time he reaches one full season's worth of plate appearances, I want him in the lineup. In the Reds' history, they've had exactly two players hit 50 or more doubles in a season, and that's it (Robinson with 51 in 1962 and Rose with 51 in 1978). Tack on 60 walks in that one full season's worth of plate appearances, and it's a no-brainer. All that at the ages of 22 and 23 years old.

The problem with Aurilia is he isn't hitting right-handed pitching at all.

Or at least we wish it were such a no brainer.....:bang:

westofyou
07-27-2006, 07:47 PM
In the Reds' history, they've had exactly two players hit 50 or more doubles in a seasonAnd they have had 20 guys with 15 or more errors at 3rd, EE has 15 now.. he's done it in 58 games, previous holder was Willie Greene in 74 games, the Modern record for E's in less then 100 games is Nick Esasky with 19 in 82 games... if you just look at 3rd with less then 100 games played you start to get deadball players on the list right above Nick... not good company to be in.

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 07:58 PM
And they have had 20 guys with 15 or more errors at 3rd, EE has 15 now.. he's done it in 58 games, previous holder was Willie Greene in 74 games, the Modern record for E's in less then 100 games is Nick Esasky with 19 in 82 games... if you just look at 3rd with less then 100 games played you start to get deadball players on the list right above Nick... not good company to be in.

Despite EE's high error total, the run differential between Aurilia's errors and EE's errors just isn't as high as the perception leads people to believe. It's the run value of those errors that's important, not necessarily the total errors. If it's three runs in 60 games, then it's eight runs over a full season. I just find it difficult to believe that EE's bat wouldn't be worth more than eight runs over Aurilia's bat over a full season.

It really comes down to EE's bat advantage over Aurilia being greater than Aurilia's error advantage over EE.

Ltlabner
07-27-2006, 08:01 PM
I sure wish the Clayton/Philips error on the double play last night only created an extra .5 runs!

Falls City Beer
07-27-2006, 08:02 PM
Despite EE's high error total, the run differential between Aurilia's errors and EE's errors just isn't as high as the perception leads people to believe. It's the run value of those errors that's important, not necessarily the total errors. If it's three runs in 60 games, then it's eight runs over a full season. I just find it difficult to believe that EE's bat wouldn't be worth more than eight runs over Aurilia's bat over a full season.

It really comes down to EE's bat advantage over Aurilia being greater than Aurilia's error advantage over EE.

And it certainly raises the question of how exactly the Reds expect EE to improve his defense while rotting on the bench with the big club.

westofyou
07-27-2006, 08:05 PM
Despite EE's high error total, the run differential between Aurilia's errors and EE's errors just isn't as high as the perception leads people to believe. It's the run value of those errors that's important, not necessarily the total errors. If it's three runs in 60 games, then it's eight runs over a full season. I just find it difficult to believe that EE's bat wouldn't be worth more than eight runs over Aurilia's bat over a full season.

It really comes down to EE's bat advantage over Aurilia being greater than Aurilia's error advantage over EE.

Sometimes when your third baseman makes errors at a rate that would make Hick Carpenter blush the manager has to approach that from an angle that might upset the player and maybe the fans, he has to manage the "player" and not the "team" especially if the player is young and impressionable, the goal is to have the best player down the road and sometimes that gets in the way of those 550 at bats everyone knows he could give you, and wants to give you.

westofyou
07-27-2006, 08:06 PM
And it certainly raises the question of how exactly the Reds expect EE to improve his defense while rotting on the bench with the big club.
He's working on his game down there with Dent and taking balls.. plsu getting starts every other day, chances are he'll play winter ball and get to work on it then too.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2006, 08:07 PM
Sometimes when your third baseman makes errors at a rate that would make Hick Carpenter blush the manager has approach that from an angle that might upset the player and maybe the fans, he has to manage the "player" and not the "team" especially if the player is young and impressionable, the goal is to have the best player down the road and sometimes that gets in the way of those 550 at bats everyone knows he could give you, and wants to give you.

Hey, no one's trying to take away Jerry's Rich Aurilia Teddy Bear: I think most fans at this point'd just like to see Jerry throw Ed a bone.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2006, 08:07 PM
He's working on his game down there with Dent and taking balls.. plsu getting starts every other day, chances are he'll play winter ball and get to work on it then too.

Getting starts every other day? That's funny.

westofyou
07-27-2006, 08:08 PM
Hey, no one's trying to take away Jerry's Rich Aurilia Teddy Bear: I think most fans at this point'd just like to see Jerry throw Ed a bone.
He started last night eh?

Teddy bear .. you too?

westofyou
07-27-2006, 08:09 PM
Getting starts every other day? That's funny.
Almost as funny as the daily whining is getting.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2006, 08:11 PM
Almost as funny as the daily whining is getting.

I agree, it's relatively noisome. But most of it contains a kernel of truth. And the truth never hurt anyone.

Defending Narron: now THAT can get shrill.

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 08:15 PM
Sometimes when your third baseman makes errors at a rate that would make Hick Carpenter blush the manager has to approach that from an angle that might upset the player and maybe the fans, he has to manage the "player" and not the "team" especially if the player is young and impressionable, the goal is to have the best player down the road and sometimes that gets in the way of those 550 at bats everyone knows he could give you, and wants to give you.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, but if Narron's trying to manage the player then it doesn't appear he's doing a very good job of it. Not when the player is telling the local beat reporters he's confused as to why he's not in the lineup.

Giving EE a game off per week while leaving the lines of communication plainly open for why he's getting that game off each week would be a more successful plan of action for developing him than what we're seeing. Playing EE seven games out of 17 with no apparent explanation to EE doesn't appear to me to be the best way to manage the player.

KronoRed
07-27-2006, 09:20 PM
Man, you guys are really overcomplicating this thing.

It's about defense. Narron thinks he'll win more games with Rich over there, until he's satisfied that EE improves his throwing, or until Rich's bat cools off to the point that the defense doesn't matter.
I'm half with you here, I see Narron as a D first kind of guy, Rich still play even if he goes back to what got him released twice in 1 year.

GAC
07-28-2006, 08:00 AM
Some of you are going to be really pee'd when they take up that option year on Aurilia. ;)

Heath
07-28-2006, 09:14 AM
Some of you are going to be really pee'd when they take up that option year on Aurilia. ;)

I'd make a joke about coming down and burning your house down - but that wouldn't be right, fair, or funny. So we'll just use a lot of the :bang: smilies when RA comes back for 2007.

:D

Hey Cyclone - (or M2, or Steel or woy) are there numbers that chart or record the amount of chances one position gets over the course of a season? (I'm actually combining stats with actual bodily movements, so this thread may blow up. :explode: ) My point is the reason that RA has a better fielding percentage is due to his lack of range. There are balls that are hit that RA looks at that EdE can get. Henceforth, EdE can actually have more chances than RA.

Example - RA at third - ball hit to his left that he can't get - basehit. The same ball is hit into the same place - EdE at 3rd can glove.

Now, not to stir up the muck, but if EdE can get a ball, set and throw the ball, 90% of the time, he's not making an error, fielding or throwing. However, there is still the 50/50 of an infield hit or an out.

So, I ask you - do you want potential out chances or give up basehits for the better "numbers"?

BRM
07-28-2006, 09:15 AM
when they take up that option year on Aurilia.

That wouldn't suprise me at all.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2006, 09:24 AM
Some of you are going to be really pee'd when they take up that option year on Aurilia. ;)

After all of the encouragement that Castellini gave us fans with his wonderful comments. Well, I am expecting that he go beyond Bowdenesque speak, that of saying the right things to tweak the fans ears and demand that Krivsky finds upgrades for Aurilia, Clayton, Hattiberg, Claussen, Milton and Ramirez, as well as to continue to upgrade the bullpen during the offseason. Aren't you? BC did say that he is a fan and wants to win now didn't he? Tell me that Castellini did not mean to have cheap backup aged veterans as his starting eight, did he?

GAC
07-28-2006, 12:20 PM
After all of the encouragement that Castellini gave us fans with his wonderful comments. Well, I am expecting that he go beyond Bowdenesque speak, that of saying the right things to tweak the fans ears and demand that Krivsky finds upgrades for Aurilia, Clayton, Hattiberg, Claussen, Milton and Ramirez, as well as to continue to upgrade the bullpen during the offseason. Aren't you? BC did say that he is a fan and wants to win now didn't he? Tell me that Castellini did not mean to have cheap backup aged veterans as his starting eight, did he?

True. But until kids like EE show defensively the consistency/maturity that is needed, then guys like RA are gonna have a job.

Not playing EE consistently, while playing RA, is not gonna be the reason we might miss the play-offs.

The pitching is still another story. ;)

Just because Castellini/Krivsky are allowing the majority of the playing time at 3B to be given to RA right now, does not, IMO, mean they have given up on EE or that they are content with Aurilia being our 3bman of the future.

He is a solution for the NOW, while we are in the race. Not the future.

Chip R
07-28-2006, 12:33 PM
True. But until kids like EE show defensively the consistency/maturity that is needed, then guys like RA are gonna have a job.


But how does he show that consistency when he's playing every 3rd day or so? Incidentally I don't believe EE has made any errors since that first game he started after the break.

princeton
07-28-2006, 12:36 PM
Some of you are going to be really pee'd when they take up that option year on Aurilia. ;)

we do need a shortstop ;)

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 12:37 PM
But how does he show that consistency when he's playing every 3rd day or so? Incidentally I don't believe EE has made any errors since that first game he started after the break.
I was thinking the same thing Wednesday night when Aurilia (irony???) saved him from one with a great pick on what should have been a routine throw.

TOBTTReds
07-28-2006, 12:40 PM
I'd make a joke about coming down and burning your house down - but that wouldn't be right, fair, or funny. So we'll just use a lot of the :bang: smilies when RA comes back for 2007.

:D

Hey Cyclone - (or M2, or Steel or woy) are there numbers that chart or record the amount of chances one position gets over the course of a season? (I'm actually combining stats with actual bodily movements, so this thread may blow up. :explode: ) My point is the reason that RA has a better fielding percentage is due to his lack of range. There are balls that are hit that RA looks at that EdE can get. Henceforth, EdE can actually have more chances than RA.

Example - RA at third - ball hit to his left that he can't get - basehit. The same ball is hit into the same place - EdE at 3rd can glove.

Now, not to stir up the muck, but if EdE can get a ball, set and throw the ball, 90% of the time, he's not making an error, fielding or throwing. However, there is still the 50/50 of an infield hit or an out.

So, I ask you - do you want potential out chances or give up basehits for the better "numbers"?

This is exactly my thought on the two players.

Sample: 15 balls hit to Aurilia, he gets to 10 of them and makes all plays for outs which are 10.

The same 15 balls are hit to EdE, he gets to 13 of them, and makes one error. 12 of the batted balls turn into out. Who do you choose????

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 12:58 PM
This is exactly my thought on the two players.

Sample: 15 balls hit to Aurilia, he gets to 10 of them and makes all plays for outs which are 10.

The same 15 balls are hit to EdE, he gets to 13 of them, and makes one error. 12 of the batted balls turn into out. Who do you choose????
Here's a more scientific way of looking at it.

EE has played 58 games at 3B, amassing 152 total chances for 2.6 TC/G

RA has played 40 games at 3B with 92 total chances for 2.3 TC/G

Assuming they each would play a full season (150 games) at that rate there, that would end up being 390 total chances for EE, 345 for RA.

If EE fielded at his current .901 percentage that would lead to roughly 39 errors. Rich's .957 would lead to 15 errors.

So, maybe Rich gets to 45 fewer balls, but throws 24 fewer away. So many other factors come in to play (pitchers GB%, field conditions, speed of hitter/runner, etc. etc. ad nauseum) that it's hard to tell for sure.

Some would argue that "all we need from a 3rd baseman is a guy who can make the 'routine' (whatever that is) play."

I dunno. As has been said many times, many ways... most defensive metrics are crapola!

westofyou
07-28-2006, 01:03 PM
I dunno. As has been said many times, many ways... most defensive metrics are crapola!

Yeah they are a crapshoot, then you have to ponder the effect that eratic fielders have on the staff, you want absolute confidence in your pitches and that means having confidence that if the player hits the ball that your defense will cover your back. If that confidence is not there then the pitcher will often pitch to avoid the scenario and that's where some other problems can creep up and bite you in the butt.

Ltlabner
07-28-2006, 01:07 PM
Yeah they are a crapshoot, then you have to ponder the effect that eratic fielders have on the staff, you want absolute confidence in your pitches and that means having confidence that if the player hits the ball that your defense will cover your back. If that confidence is not there then the pitcher will often pitch to avoid the scenario and that's where some other problems can creep up and bite you in the butt.

Or the effect eratic fielders have on other fielders who may feal the have to over compensate which leads to more blunders.

Or the effect errors can have towards leading to big innings. Like say the Clayton/Philips double-play muff durring BA's last start. I know that Cyclone has posted previously that the average error leads to about .5 additional runs on average. But as we get into the strech, we can't afford any additional "big innings" that could be started that clock in above that .5 run.

Ltlabner
07-28-2006, 01:09 PM
This is exactly my thought on the two players.

Sample: 15 balls hit to Aurilia, he gets to 10 of them and makes all plays for outs which are 10.

The same 15 balls are hit to EdE, he gets to 13 of them, and makes one error. 12 of the batted balls turn into out. Who do you choose????


That is a good question Aves, but do we really trust that he would only muff one play out of 13 from here on out. I know he's been working his tail off, and he does deserve more playing time but I can see why they are warry of just handing things back over to him.

TOBTTReds
07-28-2006, 01:24 PM
That is a good question Aves, but do we really trust that he would only muff one play out of 13 from here on out. I know he's been working his tail off, and he does deserve more playing time but I can see why they are warry of just handing things back over to him.

Even if he muffs two, it is still a better result than RA in my scenario. His Fielding % is at .901 right now, so muffing two would be worse than his current % anyway.

KronoRed
07-28-2006, 04:25 PM
Won't surprise me at all when they pick up Aurilia option, what that means for EE is up for debate though, but it certainly will mean he is not in the Reds plans for 3rd base.

But..we do have one hope, it's a mutual option, Rich may think he can get more on the FA market and the Reds will be forced to play the young,cheap, good kid :D

GAC
07-28-2006, 05:37 PM
But how does he show that consistency when he's playing every 3rd day or so? Incidentally I don't believe EE has made any errors since that first game he started after the break.

That's because he hasn't played (much)! :mooner:

So they've actually helped to cut down on his errors! ;)

And they are working very hard with him in the area other then in game situations.

Does that count - or is it an effective way to address the solution while bringing him along patiently for the remainder of the year?

Plus, it was also suggested that EE play winter ball.

GAC
07-28-2006, 05:39 PM
Won't surprise me at all when they pick up Aurilia option, what that means for EE is up for debate though, but it certainly will mean he is not in the Reds plans for 3rd base.

I don't believe that for one minute.


But..we do have one hope, it's a mutual option, Rich may think he can get more on the FA market and the Reds will be forced to play the young,cheap, good kid :D

And if EE pulls a "Willie Green", and RA is gone, we'd better resign Castro! :lol:

TOBTTReds
07-28-2006, 11:27 PM
Bill Bray gave his 'hold' to EdE for his diving catch today. Web gem machine down there. I'm telling you he will get to 50 more hits a year than RA even though he makes 20 more errors, that is still a +30 out ratio.

GAC
07-29-2006, 06:19 AM
Bill Bray gave his 'hold' to EdE for his diving catch today. Web gem machine down there. I'm telling you he will get to 50 more hits a year than RA even though he makes 20 more errors, that is still a +30 out ratio.

That catch by EE last night brought me up out of my chair! What a clutch play at a critical juncture of the game.

And after the game? Narron shakes EE's hand.

Yeah, Narron is out to get EE. ;)

remdog
07-29-2006, 10:23 AM
What's he supposed to do, spit on his shoes? :confused: If he really wants to show EE that he appreciates his play, write him into the lineup!!

Rem

Marc D
07-29-2006, 11:04 AM
Bill Bray gave his 'hold' to EdE for his diving catch today. Web gem machine down there. I'm telling you he will get to 50 more hits a year than RA even though he makes 20 more errors, that is still a +30 out ratio.

The kid is going to get his footwork down and eliminate the throwing errors. Thats the only flaw to his game and its a common one with an easy fix. Playing time and practice. This isn't the WMP scenario when we have to resign ourselves to the fact a good young offensive player will never cut it defensively.

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 11:08 AM
Repetition, repetition, repetition and then having the confidence to carry it over to the games.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2006, 11:26 AM
Can't do much for th kid's confidence when you pull him out of a 4-3 game in the 9th for Juan Castro.

I wonder if Castro makes that play in the 8th.

What if we don't hold the lead and we go to extra innings? I would rather have EE getting those AB's in extra's. Haven't we gone down that road before with yanking our main offensive contributors only to need them later?

Everything worked out, so I guess it's okay. Just wish Jerry had a little more faith in the kid.

GAC
07-29-2006, 11:32 AM
Can't do much for th kid's confidence when you pull him out of a 4-3 game in the 9th for Juan Castro.

I wonder if Castro makes that play in the 8th.

What if we don't hold the lead and we go to extra innings? I would rather have EE getting those AB's in extra's. Haven't we gone down that road before with yanking our main offensive contributors only to need them later?

Everything worked out, so I guess it's okay. Just wish Jerry had a little more faith in the kid.

Bucky was managing. Narron got tossed very early.

And No.... I don't believe that Narron was managing from the tunnel. ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2006, 11:35 AM
Bucky was managing. Narron got tossed very early.

And No.... I don't believe that Narron was managing from the tunnel. ;)

How about by cell phone? ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 11:39 AM
Can't do much for th kid's confidence when you pull him out of a 4-3 game in the 9th for Juan Castro.

I wonder if Castro makes that play in the 8th.

What if we don't hold the lead and we go to extra innings? I would rather have EE getting those AB's in extra's. Haven't we gone down that road before with yanking our main offensive contributors only to need them later?

Everything worked out, so I guess it's okay. Just wish Jerry had a little more faith in the kid.

Keep making all the plays and you won't see him get yanked. He makes the great plays, because of talent and instinct. Encarnacion needs to stay focused on the routine plays. Like a lot of kids, when he has time to think, he gets in trouble. Kid definitely has the tools.

I've had kids play for me that were exactly like Encarnacion. Need a great play and you want that tough line drive or grounder hit their way, but in no way do you want a routine ground ball hit to them late in a game. Most get over it, but some never do. I think Encarnacion is going to be just fine.

GAC
07-29-2006, 11:40 AM
How about by cell phone? ;)

Or maybe smoke signals via the stacks in CF? ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2006, 11:42 AM
Keep making all the plays and you won't see him get yanked. He makes the great plays, because of talent and instinct. Encarnacion needs to stay focused on the routine plays. Like a lot of kids, when he has time to think, he gets in trouble. Kid definitely has the tools.

I've had kids play for me that were exactly like Encarnacion. Need a great play and you want that tough line drive or grounder hit their way, but in no way do you want a routine ground ball hit to them late in a game. Most get over it, but some never do. I think Encarnacion is goint to be just fine.

Agree you gotta make the plays. Just hard to make the plays consistently when you are:

A. Not getting into any kind of rhythm.

B. Always looking over your shoulder.

I understand we are in a pennant race, but I bet patience with him now will pay off soon enough. Maybe even October.

GAC
07-29-2006, 11:43 AM
Keep making all the plays and you won't see him get yanked. He makes the great plays, because of talent and instinct. Encarnacion needs to stay focused on the routine plays. Like a lot of kids, when he has time to think, he gets in trouble. Kid definitely has the tools.

I've had kids play for me that were exactly like Encarnacion. Need a great play and you want that tough line drive or grounder hit their way, but in no way do you want a routine ground ball hit to them late in a game. Most get over it, but some never do. I think Encarnacion is going to be just fine.

Yer right Randy - it's called reacting with HAVING time to think about it.

I was a SS in my yonger days (many eons ago), and I'd say my best plays (web gems) occurred too quickly for me to have time to think, but simply react.

Those days (and reflexes) are long gone! :lol:

GAC
07-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Agree you gotta make the plays. Just hard to make the plays consistently when you are:

A. Not getting into any kind of rhythm.

B. Always looking over your shoulder.

I understand we are in a pennant race, but I bet patience with him now will pay off soon enough. Maybe even October.

I've always stated that he should be getting more playing time, while I understand (not necessarily agree) with what/why they are currently doing with RA.

But this is a young kid who has plenty of time, ain't going anywhere (cheap talent), and who continues to carry a very good attitude through all of this while he continues to work hard daily with the coaches on his fielding.

I sincerely believe, and I'm not necessarily referring to this year, though it could begin to happen, that you will see EE getting the majority of the playing time at 3B with RA used in other various roles.

Before EE's ankle injury, RA only played 3B a few times, and spent the vast majority of his time in the 1B platoon with Hat.

I really hope they pick up RA's option. He has been an asset, and will only make 2.5 Mil if retained. I'll take him over Clayton and Castro. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Not looking over your shoulder is one of the hardest things to learn in all of sports. The best never look over their shoulder and are full of confidence. You think Bench ever looked over his shoulder? When he first came up, he told Johnny Edwards that he was there to take his job.

I hope that isn't a problem with Encarnacion, cause it's a hard problem to shake. He needs to go out there every time he gets to play with the attitude that he can handle anything hit at him, and that he is going to make every play. Take the job. That is what I want to see from Encarnacion.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2006, 12:04 PM
Before EE's ankle injury, RA only played 3B a few times, and spent the vast majority of his time in the 1B platoon with Hat.

I really hope they pick up RA's option. He has been an asset, and will only make 2.5 Mil if retained. I'll take him over Clayton and Castro. ;)

If they pick up RA's option, I hope it is because they don't see Votto ready for 2007 and mainly use RA as a platoon with Hatteberg at 1B. As has been noted, RA hits LHP very well and Hatte hits RHP very well. They both struggle (career-wise) vs. RHP and LHP respectively. If this were to be the case - a platoon at 1B with Hatteberg and RA, I think they could produce more than enough to justify the 4 M in total salary for 2007. RA could also be used (as with super-utility man Freel) only as an emergency backup (to EE and BP) and a RH bat off the bench when he doesn't play, which would be 2/3 of ther time, since Hatte would be starting against all RHP.

I'd like to see them land a quality 2B in FA (if Phillips is moved to SS) or a quality SS (if Phillips stays at 2B). Junior should either be dealt to the AL (to be a DH) or moved to RF or LF (if Dunn can manage RF), with Denorfia and Freel manning CF, unless a FA CF can be acquired in the off-season.

wally post
07-29-2006, 12:20 PM
Keep making all the plays and you won't see him get yanked. He makes the great plays, because of talent and instinct. Encarnacion needs to stay focused on the routine plays. Like a lot of kids, when he has time to think, he gets in trouble. Kid definitely has the tools.

I've had kids play for me that were exactly like Encarnacion. Need a great play and you want that tough line drive or grounder hit their way, but in no way do you want a routine ground ball hit to them late in a game. Most get over it, but some never do. I think Encarnacion is going to be just fine.

Great post Randy! We used to talk about Concepcion the same way when he came up and he sure worked out just great. I predict a similar outcome for EE!

Marc D
07-29-2006, 12:47 PM
Take the job. That is what I want to see from Encarnacion.

He did. Then he gets hurt and hasn't been given a fair shot to earn it back which he should never have had to do in the first place. Plus don't forget, Narron hasn't even had the decency to sit down and explain things to EE according to that article.

No one can spin this to make Narron look good. If its all about swallowing ego's to help the team win why is Griffey still in CF? If its about putting guys in the best position to help the team win thy isn't Phillips at SS and RA at 2B?

GAC
07-29-2006, 01:54 PM
If they pick up RA's option, I hope it is because they don't see Votto ready for 2007 and mainly use RA as a platoon with Hatteberg at 1B. As has been noted, RA hits LHP very well and Hatte hits RHP very well. They both struggle (career-wise) vs. RHP and LHP respectively. If this were to be the case - a platoon at 1B with Hatteberg and RA, I think they could produce more than enough to justify the 4 M in total salary for 2007. RA could also be used (as with super-utility man Freel) only as an emergency backup (to EE and BP) and a RH bat off the bench when he doesn't play, which would be 2/3 of ther time, since Hatte would be starting against all RHP.

I'd like to see them land a quality 2B in FA (if Phillips is moved to SS) or a quality SS (if Phillips stays at 2B). Junior should either be dealt to the AL (to be a DH) or moved to RF or LF (if Dunn can manage RF), with Denorfia and Freel manning CF, unless a FA CF can be acquired in the off-season.

I agree with the above. But people need to give it up on Jr. No one is gonna take the chance on that guy's contract, and he has veto rights.

He's here thru '08. ;)

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 04:04 PM
What's he supposed to do, spit on his shoes? :confused: If he really wants to show EE that he appreciates his play, write him into the lineup!!

Rem
Agreed.

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 04:04 PM
If they pick up RA's option, I hope it is because they don't see Votto ready for 2007 and mainly use RA as a platoon with Hatteberg at 1B.
That would be nice but I have a hard time see Narron using them that way.

Another year of EE being sent to the bench a lot for the veteran guys is not a good thing in my book, let him have the job..want an insurance guy? go find someone who Narron won't use as the starter..someone younger then EE I guess ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 04:22 PM
He did. Then he gets hurt and hasn't been given a fair shot to earn it back which he should never have had to do in the first place. Plus don't forget, Narron hasn't even had the decency to sit down and explain things to EE according to that article.

No one can spin this to make Narron look good. If its all about swallowing ego's to help the team win why is Griffey still in CF? If its about putting guys in the best position to help the team win thy isn't Phillips at SS and RA at 2B?

Take it again.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 04:36 PM
Take it again.

1 error and OPS .900+ since his return off the top of my head. What more can the kid do?

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 04:51 PM
Stay ready. Keep working hard. Make all the plays and throws in the field, particularly the routine ones.

Raisor
07-29-2006, 05:32 PM
If its about putting guys in the best position to help the team win thy isn't Phillips at SS and RA at 2B?


Make that Freel at 2B, and you've got me.

Cedric
07-29-2006, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure if moving Phillips to SS is really a smart choice at this point in the year. He's already had some troubles at the plate and he might be a little shaky in moving to the most stressful position on the infield.

I'm all for it next year though.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 06:02 PM
Make that Freel at 2B, and you've got me.

Agree but I'm factoring in the fact RA must be in the lineup somewhere.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 06:13 PM
Stay ready. Keep working hard. Make all the plays and throws in the field, particularly the routine ones.

Stay ready- I'd say his high OPS shows he performs when given the chance

Keep working hard- by all reports this isn't even close to an issue

Make the plays....- 1 error since his return?

So really all Narron can point to is 1 stinking error since he came back.


My advice to EE is emmulate Richie and throw a hissy fit about PT to every sportswriter who will listen. Worked for the scrappy vet, should work for the talented young kid.

RANDY IN INDY
07-29-2006, 07:07 PM
I always thought it was a better idea to act like you have some class and support your team when you are called upon. I think a lot of you guys are more upset about this than Encarnacion.

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 07:49 PM
My advice to EE is emmulate Richie and throw a hissy fit about PT to every sportswriter who will listen. Worked for the scrappy vet, should work for the talented young kid.
That was Miley it worked with ;)

Narron would use it to bench him for good :lol:

GAC
07-30-2006, 07:56 AM
I always thought it was a better idea to act like you have some class and support your team when you are called upon. I think a lot of you guys are more upset about this than Encarnacion.

:thumbup:

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2006, 05:41 PM
Trade Encarnacion. I love the kid, so much that I would rather him go somewhere else and be a great player rather than rot away on the Reds bench.

Jerry Narron has got to go.

TOBTTReds
07-30-2006, 06:28 PM
One thing that I liked is when Aurilia hit his HR in the 9th, EdE must have been hitting in the clubhouse because he came up the stairs and patted him on the back. I'm glad he didn't completely ignore him bc I could see this starting a clubhouse rif right now.

RFS62
07-30-2006, 06:30 PM
Trade Encarnacion. I love the kid, so much that I would rather him go somewhere else and be a great player rather than rot away on the Reds bench.

Jerry Narron has got to go.


Good Lord, man!!!!

You seriously need to consider decaf.

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Trade Encarnacion. I love the kid, so much that I would rather him go somewhere else and be a great player rather than rot away on the Reds bench.

Jerry Narron has got to go.
If Cincy can get a good, young pitcher for EdE right now I wouldn't mind. I just cannot fathom why JN refuses to play him.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2006, 06:41 PM
Good Lord, man!!!!

You seriously need to consider decaf.

Why?

I seriously would rather see Encarnacion go somewhere and become a star rather than see Jerry Narron ruin his career. I would contact the Angels about a Santana-for-Encarnacion deal. EE goes to a team that will appreciate how special of a player he is, and in return the Reds get a stud pitcher.

Phhhl
07-30-2006, 06:59 PM
Why?

I seriously would rather see Encarnacion go somewhere and become a star rather than see Jerry Narron ruin his career. I would contact the Angels about a Santana-for-Encarnacion deal. EE goes to a team that will appreciate how special of a player he is, and in return the Reds get a stud pitcher.

What Narron is doing to Edwin IS an absolute crime. But, when something like this happens, you fix it by getting rid of bad managers. Not good players.

I am afraid this club is going to start feeling the loss of those two bats real soon. As it stands, they literally have nothing to show for the trade except a few passable outtings from Bray. We could survive it if Narron would simply let Edwin do his job. I happen to think Edwin is a big enough offensive force right now to make the loss of Kearns and Lopez negligible. But Narron won't.

I am scared to death that Krivsky will move Edwin to get a fifth starter, or, God forbid, more bullpen. I can see no scenario in which Ewin is dealt where I would be happy about it.