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View Full Version : Is Mike Mussina a HOFer?



Puffy
07-26-2006, 10:49 AM
Career 236 130 0 3.63 1.18

So, is Mussina a Hall of Famer, and if not yet (which I would say is the case) what does he need to get to make it. He is 37 years old and still pitching well.

What if he ends up 282-155 for a career wining percentage of .645 with no Cy Youngs and no 20 win seasons?

How bout same 282-155 career, but with a 20 win season and a Cy Young?

Does he need a Cy Young? Or 300 wins? Or both?

Joseph
07-26-2006, 11:36 AM
No, not yet.

What he needs it a World Series win, a Cy Young or two, and 280+ wins.

princeton
07-26-2006, 11:38 AM
He's closer than the Reds' draft pick in 1990, Dan Wilson.

RBA
07-26-2006, 11:48 AM
Mike....who? :D

Red Leader
07-26-2006, 11:51 AM
No, not yet.

What he needs it a World Series win, a Cy Young or two, and 280+ wins.

From where he is now, I don't think he'll make the cut. He's been very good, but I just don't think Hall of Fame when his name is mentioned. He'd have to put up anther 2-3 seasons of 15+ wins, with mid 3 ERA's and some pretty good post season numbers to make it, IMO.

Puffy
07-26-2006, 11:54 AM
From where he is now, I don't think he'll make the cut. He's been very good, but I just don't think Hall of Fame when his name is mentioned. He'd have to put up anther 2-3 seasons of 15+ wins, with mid 3 ERA's and some pretty good post season numbers to make it, IMO.

OK, he's gonna do that this year, and probably for at least the next two years.

I ask this question because he is going to end up with a sick winning percentage and close to 300 wins, so is his lack of a Cy Young fatal? Seems most are saying yes, but LaMar Hoyt won a Cy Young, so is that really a prerequisite?

Cyclone792
07-26-2006, 11:55 AM
Mussina had a 125 ERA+ coming into this season, and barring a collapse, that figure will likely get better after this season. Tack on likely more than 250 career wins, and that should cement him, IMO.

By comparison, Jim Palmer went 268-152 with a career 125 ERA+, and I don't know anybody that doesn't believe Palmer belongs. Palmer's career only looks more impressive than Moose's because Palmer pitched in an era much more conducive to arms.

But as we all know, looks can be deceiving.

Red Leader
07-26-2006, 11:58 AM
OK, he's gonna do that this year, and probably for at least the next two years.

I ask this question because he is going to end up with a sick winning percentage and close to 300 wins, so is his lack of a Cy Young fatal? Seems most are saying yes, but LaMar Hoyt won a Cy Young, so is that really a prerequisite?

Well to me, the Cy Young indicates that you were at least the best pitcher in the game for one season. He can't claim that. Not having 20 W's in a season hurts him as well.

I'm not arguing that he's a good pitcher, because he is a good pitcher, but in the years prior to this one (while with the Yankees) he's fallen short of expectations and had some pretty mediocre seasons.

I think all of those things above will hurt him and leave him on the outside looking in.

Puffy
07-26-2006, 12:00 PM
Well to me, the Cy Young indicates that you were at least the best pitcher in the game for one season. He can't claim that. Not having 20 W's in a season hurts him as well.

I'm not arguing that he's a good pitcher, because he is a good pitcher, but in the years prior to this one (while with the Yankees) he's fallen short of expectations and had some pretty mediocre seasons.

I think all of those things above will hurt him and leave him on the outside looking in.

Yeah, well............................your mom wears combat boots.

RedsManRick
07-26-2006, 12:16 PM
I judge HoF status by 3 things:

1.) Career value (Eddie Murray)
2.) Peak value (Sandy Koufax)
3.) Intangibles (Kirby Puckett)

If you put each of these on a 1-10 scale (1 = not notable, 4 = solid major leaguer, 7 = all-star, 10 = all time great), I'd say you need a 20 or greater to make it. For Mussina I'd rate him a 6/7/4. If he can push his career value up to 8 (280 wins) and throw in a great post season or cy young, I'd say he's there.

edabbs44
07-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Wins are overrated.

Mussina just doesn't have that HOF luster. Did anyone ever say "Wow, we have to face Mussina this series?" I'm sure that was said about Unit, Pedro, Maddux, etc. I just don't see that about Moose. Very good pitcher, but not one who scared teams.

Johnny Footstool
07-26-2006, 12:33 PM
In my opinion, if Bert Blyleven isn't in the HOF, then Mike Mussina doesn't get in unless he buys a ticket.

redsmetz
07-26-2006, 12:37 PM
He's not a clear entry as shown by the chart below from baseball-reference.com, but he's surprising with his numbers in every area but the Black Ink.


Black Ink: Pitching - 14 (149) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 215 (30) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 46.0 (46) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 102.0 (89) (Likely HOFer > 100)

He also compares there with three HOF'ers: Juan Marichal, Catfish Hunter and Dazzy Vance

redsfanmia
07-26-2006, 12:45 PM
In my opinion, if Bert Blyleven isn't in the HOF, then Mike Mussina doesn't get in unless he buys a ticket.
You beat me to it.

RedsManRick
07-26-2006, 12:59 PM
In my opinion, if Bert Blyleven isn't in the HOF, then Mike Mussina doesn't get in unless he buys a ticket.

And Blyleven should be in the Hall. I agree. Moose is probably 3-4 solid seasons away from being comprable. That said, I wonder how many players have won 200+ games and had a career ERA+ of 125 or greater and are not in the hall. (Blyleven is at 117, Moose is at 125, fwiw)

Puffy
07-26-2006, 01:06 PM
And Blyleven should be in the Hall. I agree. Moose is probably 3-4 solid seasons away from being comprable. That said, I wonder how many players have won 200+ games and had a career ERA+ of 125 or greater and are not in the hall. (Blyleven is at 117, Moose is at 125, fwiw)

And it could get better. This year is the best he has pitched in a couple of years and its because he has tweaked his approach.

Puffy
07-26-2006, 01:07 PM
Oh, and Bert "be home" Blyleven should be in the Hall. More deserving that Bruce Sutter, IMO.

Cyclone792
07-26-2006, 01:07 PM
And Blyleven should be in the Hall. I agree. Moose is probably 3-4 solid seasons away from being comprable. That said, I wonder how many players have won 200+ games and had a career ERA+ of 125 or greater and are not in the hall. (Blyleven is at 117, Moose is at 125, fwiw)

200+ wins and career ERA+ of 125 or greater ... every starting pitcher with those credentials is in the Hall of Fame. Mussina also has a lifetime 3.30 ERA in 128 career postseason innings. If he had normal run support, his 7-7 postseason W/L record would be greater.

Thus far in his career, Mussina's flat out been a greater pitcher than many are giving him credit for.

FWIW, Blyleven belongs in too.

Danny Serafini
07-26-2006, 01:21 PM
Mussina is one of those guys who belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not the Hall of Fame. I don't think he's done quite enough as it stands, and I don't see him hitting the kind of benchmarks that move a guy in. He's a step short in my opinion.

Team Clark
07-26-2006, 03:25 PM
No Blyleven...then no way Mussine gets in.

westofyou
07-26-2006, 03:34 PM
Mike Mussina the Billy Pierce of this generation.

KronoRed
07-26-2006, 05:32 PM
Not quite.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2006, 10:44 AM
Everybody says wins are overrated. And I'll agree they are on a game by game basis. Even total wins in a season can be deceiving.
But total wins over a career many times gives a pretty good idea.

Such as it's pretty hard to win 20 games and have a bad season. 15 games? sure,(Jimmy Haynes) but to win 20 games is pretty tough.

Similarly winning 300 games takes an awful lot of good pitching.
How many 300 game winners can you name that really weren't Hall of Fame worthy pitchers?

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 03:58 PM
Well, I decided to take a little bit closer look at Mke Mussina, and the more I look at Mussina, the more I feel he truly does belong in the Hall of Fame. Some of you guys looking at him and feeling he doesn't deserve the Hall may be slighting him quite a bit, IMO, because Mussina compares very favorably to a very large chunk of Hall of Fame pitchers.

Here are most of the MLB pitchers enshrined in Cooperstown. I only say most because I may have missed one or three guys, but the vast majority of them are listed here. There's two simple columns, total innings pitched and ERA+. The list is sorted by ERA+:



PITCHER INNINGS ERA+

Lefty Grove 3940.2 148
Walter Johnson 5914.2 146
Ed Walsh 2964.1 145
Addie Joss 2237.0 142
Al Spalding 2890.2 142
Kid Nichols 5056.1 139
Three Finger Brown 3172.1 138
Cy Young 7354.2 138
Pete Alexander 5190.0 135
Christy Mathewson 4780.2 135
Rube Waddell 2961.1 134
John Clarkson 4536.1 134
Whitey Ford 3170.1 132
Sandy Koufax 2324.1 131
Hal Newhouser 2993.0 130
Dizzy Dean 1967.1 130
Carl Hubbell 3590.1 130
Amos Rusie 3769.2 130
Tom Seaver 4782.2 127
Stanley Coveleski 3082.0 127
Jim Palmer 3948.0 125

MIKE MUSSINA 3154.1 125

Lefty Gomez 2503.0 125
Dazzy Vance 2966.2 125
Tim Keefe 5047.2 125
Bob Feller* 3827.0 122
Juan Marichal 3507.1 122
Eddie Plank 4495.2 122
Don Drysdale 3432.0 121
Joe McGinnity 3441.1 121
Old Hoss Radbourn 4535.1 120
Bob Lemon 2850.0 119
Red Faber 4086.2 119
Warren Spahn 5243.2 118
Ted Lyons 4161.0 118
Gaylord Perry 5350.1 117
Steve Carlton 5217.1 115
Fergie Jenkins 4500.2 115
Phil Niekro 5404.1 115
Eppa Rixey 4494.2 115
Jim Bunning 3760.1 114
Robin Roberts 4688.2 113
Nolan Ryan 5386.0 112
Chief Bender 3017.0 112
Waite Hoyt 3762.1 111
Jack Chesbro 2896.2 110
Red Ruffing 4344.0 109
Burleigh Grimes 4180.0 107
Early Wynn 4564.0 106
Herb Pennock 3571.2 106
Catfish Hunter 3449.1 104
Rube Marquard 3306.2 103

Now, let's use the above list to find the Hall of Fame pitchers that I would rank Mussina greater than.

Hal Newhouser
Dizzy Dean
Stanley Coveleski
Lefty Gomez
Dazzy Vance
Don Drysdale
Joe McGinnity
Bob Lemon
Eppa Rixey
Jim Bunning
Chief Bender
Waite Hoyt
Red Ruffing
Jack Chesbro
Burleigh Grimes
Early Wynn
Herb Pennock
Catfish Hunter
Rube Marquard

That's 19 Hall of Fame pitchers that I would rank Mussina greater than, and yes, that's a very large portion. That isn't just saying that Mussina's greater than Rube Marquard and Burleigh Grimes; this is saying that Mussina's greater than over 35 percent of the starting pitchers already in the Hall of Fame.

That's extraordinary, and that's if Mussina retired right now. If he puts up a few more solid seasons, he'd also likely rank ahead of guys such as Red Faber, Ted Lyons and even have a darn good argument for ranking ahead of Juan Marichal.

Mike Mussina has been nothing short of an outstanding pitcher during his career, and he's put up numbers that are clearly Hall of Fame worthy. The only fault in his resume is that he's pitched in the shadows of Clemens, Maddux, Martinez and Johnson, but that still doesn't mean that Mussina isn't an outstanding pitcher in his own right.

Highlifeman21
07-27-2006, 05:17 PM
Well, I decided to take a little bit closer look at Mke Mussina, and the more I look at Mussina, the more I feel he truly does belong in the Hall of Fame. Some of you guys looking at him and feeling he doesn't deserve the Hall may be slighting him quite a bit, IMO, because Mussina compares very favorably to a very large chunk of Hall of Fame pitchers.

Here are most of the MLB pitchers enshrined in Cooperstown. I only say most because I may have missed one or three guys, but the vast majority of them are listed here. There's two simple columns, total innings pitched and ERA+. The list is sorted by ERA+:



PITCHER INNINGS ERA+

Lefty Grove 3940.2 148
Walter Johnson 5914.2 146
Ed Walsh 2964.1 145
Addie Joss 2237.0 142
Al Spalding 2890.2 142
Kid Nichols 5056.1 139
Three Finger Brown 3172.1 138
Cy Young 7354.2 138
Pete Alexander 5190.0 135
Christy Mathewson 4780.2 135
Rube Waddell 2961.1 134
John Clarkson 4536.1 134
Whitey Ford 3170.1 132
Sandy Koufax 2324.1 131
Hal Newhouser 2993.0 130
Dizzy Dean 1967.1 130
Carl Hubbell 3590.1 130
Amos Rusie 3769.2 130
Tom Seaver 4782.2 127
Stanley Coveleski 3082.0 127
Jim Palmer 3948.0 125

MIKE MUSSINA 3154.1 125

Lefty Gomez 2503.0 125
Dazzy Vance 2966.2 125
Tim Keefe 5047.2 125
Bob Feller* 3827.0 122
Juan Marichal 3507.1 122
Eddie Plank 4495.2 122
Don Drysdale 3432.0 121
Joe McGinnity 3441.1 121
Old Hoss Radbourn 4535.1 120
Bob Lemon 2850.0 119
Red Faber 4086.2 119
Warren Spahn 5243.2 118
Ted Lyons 4161.0 118
Gaylord Perry 5350.1 117
Steve Carlton 5217.1 115
Fergie Jenkins 4500.2 115
Phil Niekro 5404.1 115
Eppa Rixey 4494.2 115
Jim Bunning 3760.1 114
Robin Roberts 4688.2 113
Nolan Ryan 5386.0 112
Chief Bender 3017.0 112
Waite Hoyt 3762.1 111
Jack Chesbro 2896.2 110
Red Ruffing 4344.0 109
Burleigh Grimes 4180.0 107
Early Wynn 4564.0 106
Herb Pennock 3571.2 106
Catfish Hunter 3449.1 104
Rube Marquard 3306.2 103

Now, let's use the above list to find the Hall of Fame pitchers that I would rank Mussina greater than.

Hal Newhouser
Dizzy Dean
Stanley Coveleski
Lefty Gomez
Dazzy Vance
Don Drysdale
Joe McGinnity
Bob Lemon
Eppa Rixey
Jim Bunning
Chief Bender
Waite Hoyt
Red Ruffing
Jack Chesbro
Burleigh Grimes
Early Wynn
Herb Pennock
Catfish Hunter
Rube Marquard

That's 19 Hall of Fame pitchers that I would rank Mussina greater than, and yes, that's a very large portion. That isn't just saying that Mussina's greater than Rube Marquard and Burleigh Grimes; this is saying that Mussina's greater than over 35 percent of the starting pitchers already in the Hall of Fame.

That's extraordinary, and that's if Mussina retired right now. If he puts up a few more solid seasons, he'd also likely rank ahead of guys such as Red Faber, Ted Lyons and even have a darn good argument for ranking ahead of Juan Marichal.

Mike Mussina has been nothing short of an outstanding pitcher during his career, and he's put up numbers that are clearly Hall of Fame worthy. The only fault in his resume is that he's pitched in the shadows of Clemens, Maddux, Martinez and Johnson, but that still doesn't mean that Mussina isn't an outstanding pitcher in his own right.

This sums it up, the numbers don't lie. Let's not forget that Roger Clemens owes Mike Mussina at least 2 Cy Youngs that he didn't deserve.

Mussina should be a no-doubter, IMO.

Red Leader
07-27-2006, 05:21 PM
Hmmm. Here's what I would have to say.

Do I think Mike Mussina is a Hall of Famer: borderline. Could go either way for me. After looking at the numbers, I would have to be swayed more towards, yes. The numbers are pretty impressive.


Do I think Mike Mussina will actually get voted into the Hall of Fame? I really don't think so. I'd have to see what kind of names he'd be on the ballot with because that ultimately what I think it will come down to.

Yachtzee
07-27-2006, 09:05 PM
In my opinion, if Bert Blyleven isn't in the HOF, then Mike Mussina doesn't get in unless he buys a ticket.

My sentiments exactly.