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View Full Version : Had a great convo about Barry Larkin



KalDanielsfan
07-27-2006, 12:00 PM
Last night at this bar in hollywood with an avid Mets fan who is a close friend of mine

for about an hour over drinks we discussed Barry Larkin..i argued he should be a first ballot HOF...

My buddy says he doesnt get in at all and is at best a fringe HOF

what do u guys think? objective opinions please

I was shockd to hear ANYONE oppose B Larkin into the HOF and I thought I was being objective about it as well

Jr's Boy
07-27-2006, 12:16 PM
Dumb argument.

Rob Dicken
07-27-2006, 12:20 PM
Even if I wasn't a Reds fan....this is common sense....

Barry Larkin is one of the best Shortstops the Reds have ever had, a multiple time All-Star, and possibly one of the best the MLB has ever seen. Lately, shortstops have been converted into 3rd basemen (Cal Ripken, A-rod.)

Barry Larkin was a shortstop until he retired. He had the range, fielding abilities, and throwing accuracy only comparable to the BEST of all shortstops.

How could he NEVER get in? It would be lunacy not to induct him.

cincrazy
07-27-2006, 12:22 PM
If Barry Larkin would have played in New York with the Yankees, Barry Larkin would have been Derek Jeter. Playing in a small market like Cincy hurts his chances a bit, but I see him making it. He has a world title, an MVP, and was one of the top two shortstops in the NL for years. I would be very disappointed if he doesn't eventually get in.

terminator
07-27-2006, 12:27 PM
I think, given his career stats, having a WS title and MVP award pretty much cinches it for him.

Whether he makes it on the first ballot probably depends on who is on the ballot with him.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2006, 12:27 PM
He's certainly not a first ballot hall of famer.

For: 3 GG, 7 Silver Sluggers, 1995 MVP, 30-30 threat.

Against: Career counting stats come up lacking... 2,340 hits, 1,329 runs, 940 RBI's good not elite.

I think the real problem will be context. Take his career numbers and his peak offensive numbers against the standard 80's early 90's shortstop, and he's a no doubt hall of famer.
Compare them to your late 90's, 2000's SS and it's again very good but fringe HOF.

How would you compare him to Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez(I know he's a 3b now) and Miguel Tejada. My guess is the majority of his counting stats will be left in the dust by those three.

acredsfan
07-27-2006, 12:37 PM
He's certainly not a first ballot hall of famer.

For: 3 GG, 7 Silver Sluggers, 1995 MVP, 30-30 threat.

Against: Career counting stats come up lacking... 2,340 hits, 1,329 runs, 940 RBI's good not elite.

I think the real problem will be context. Take his career numbers and his peak offensive numbers against the standard 80's early 90's shortstop, and he's a no doubt hall of famer.
Compare them to your late 90's, 2000's SS and it's again very good but fringe HOF.

How would you compare him to Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez(I know he's a 3b now) and Miguel Tejada. My guess is the majority of his counting stats will be left in the dust by those three.I really don't think it will be a problem, what he lacks in offensive numbers he made up for with his defense. To me he is one of the greatest all around SS in the history of the game. Not only was he a 30-30 threat, he was one of the steadiest fielders of his time. If Ozzie is in, then there is no reason for Barry not to make it, you can use the whole context thing to give an excuse for if he doesn't make it, but in reality, if he doesn't make it then the problem isn't context, its the people voting to let players into the hall of fame.

RedsManRick
07-27-2006, 12:48 PM
Bill James rated Larkin at the #6 SS of all time. I think he won't get in first ballot (50% or so) but as soon as a relatively weak class shows up, he'll get in. The argument will pretty quickly be framed not as "look as his peers" but rather "look at the other HoF SS's".

Johnny Footstool
07-27-2006, 12:52 PM
Dumb argument.

Great comment on your part, though...

Cyclone792
07-27-2006, 12:55 PM
Here's my lengthy take on Larkin and the Hall ...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42221

The short answer is Barry belongs ... easily.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2006, 01:00 PM
I should clarify, I think he deserves to go, but I think he will have trouble making it.

However to compare his fielding to Ozzie's will not help.
Ozzie had 13 gold gloves.
He also had 2,460 hits and 1,257 runs.

Jr's Boy
07-27-2006, 01:00 PM
Great comment on your part, though...
Gracious.

redsfanfalcon
07-27-2006, 01:05 PM
I agree he should probably get in, but injuries make it a bit cloudy for him. That IMO, is the only thing really counting against him.

redsfan30
07-27-2006, 01:13 PM
Sounds like a Mets fan holding July of 2000 against Barry....

Wheelhouse
07-27-2006, 01:20 PM
He might be first ballot for this reason: a good many players from the 90's will have question marks floating over them because of the 'roid issue: Barry won't be one of them...

acredsfan
07-27-2006, 01:25 PM
He might be first ballot for this reason: a good many players from the 90's will have question marks floating over them because of the 'roid issue: Barry won't be one of them...I don't know, did you see his calves?;)
http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/7-legged-calf.jpg

Phhhl
07-27-2006, 01:33 PM
It's true that some contemporary shortstops have amassed better numbers, and that could hurt Larkin. But, for the majority of his career, and for the entire history of baseball before it, Larkin was one of the greatest hitting shortstop the game has ever seen. Hall of Famers have been graded on the curve of their times and hundreds of other factors that have effected their statistics over the years. Why should an influx of freakishly talented hitters who happen to play the same position as Larkin taint what he accomplished when he was the standard bearer? A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and Garciappara have absolutely nothing to do with Barry Larkin. Nothing.

Definately should be a hall of famer. No question.

crazybob60
07-27-2006, 01:43 PM
Personally Barry belongs and will make it into the Hall. Is he a first-ballot HOF? Really I don't think that is going to be determined by Barry alone, I think that will be determined by who else is eligible to go in the same year as Barry, does anybody happen to know who that may be????

If there are no significant names or maybe one, then he goes in first ballot, and if there are more than one, well then he is fringe on the first ballot but IMO no doubter on the second or third ballot.

Also, comparing him to Jeter, well, I think Barry is a far superior SS to Jeter and probably could have helped the Yankees more in a spot such as that, but that would be an endless argument for someone to have because there will always be one person saying one thing and another saying another, not saying that is bad because that is what we all love to do is to talk and debate these such topics, that is what makes talking about this type of thing fun, at least for me.

Rob Dicken
07-27-2006, 01:47 PM
I should clarify, I think he deserves to go, but I think he will have trouble making it.

However to compare his fielding to Ozzie's will not help.
Ozzie had 13 gold gloves.
He also had 2,460 hits and 1,257 runs.

Ozzie also played 18 seasons and and had a lifetime batting average of .262
He also hit a grand total of 28 home-runs. :eek:

Barry, on the other hand, also played 18 seasons and had a lifetime batting average of .295, and hit 198 homeruns.

Comparing OPS:

Ozzie Smith: .666 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: .815 LIFETIME

Comparing FPT:

Ozzie Smith: .978 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: .975 LIFETIME

Comparing Errors:

Ozzie Smith: 281 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: 231 LIFETIME



So, really.....we're contesting WHAT here?

Barry OBVIOUSLY blew away Ozzie in EVERY offensive category. Fielding wise, it's very close.

First ballot? You bet your butt he belongs in the Hall of Fame first ballot. Will he? It's hard to tell.

JEA
07-27-2006, 02:19 PM
The writers/voters are a fickle bunch.

Hopefully, by the time Larkin's class comes around for consideration, the writers will be big into "making a statement" by voting in a guy who was never wrapped up in any type of scandal or drugs or clashes with the media.

If they decide to value character and loyalty as much as on-field accomplishments, he'll be a no-brainer for induction.

princeton
07-27-2006, 02:37 PM
Last night at this bar in hollywood with an avid Mets fan who is a close friend of mine

for about an hour over drinks we discussed Barry Larkin..i argued he should be a first ballot HOF...

My buddy says he doesnt get in at all and is at best a fringe HOF

is a "convo" an hourlong contradiction of two unreconcilable viewpoints?

if so, then 'scuse me while I convo with mrs. princeton

TOBTTReds
07-27-2006, 03:16 PM
Barry changed the way SS's are viewed offensively. He changed a major part of the game. He is like a pioneer for power hitting SS.

Jaycint
07-27-2006, 03:48 PM
Barry is a definite first ballot guy. Looking at his numbers against some other guys in the Hall I don't see how he can't be.

I think the A-Rod/Tejada/Jeter standard is an unfair one and I don't think the voters will try and compare them that way.

Matt700wlw
07-27-2006, 03:49 PM
Ozzie's in, Barry should be in...if Barry's in, Concepcion should be in....

Hoosier Red
07-27-2006, 05:34 PM
Ozzie also played 18 seasons and and had a lifetime batting average of .262
He also hit a grand total of 28 home-runs. :eek:

Barry, on the other hand, also played 18 seasons and had a lifetime batting average of .295, and hit 198 homeruns.

Comparing OPS:

Ozzie Smith: .666 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: .815 LIFETIME

Comparing FPT:

Ozzie Smith: .978 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: .975 LIFETIME

Comparing Errors:

Ozzie Smith: 281 LIFETIME
Barry Larkin: 231 LIFETIME



So, really.....we're contesting WHAT here?

Barry OBVIOUSLY blew away Ozzie in EVERY offensive category. Fielding wise, it's very close.

First ballot? You bet your butt he belongs in the Hall of Fame first ballot. Will he? It's hard to tell.


The problem I was posting with those numbers is. Ask anyone of the writers who the better fielder was and a vast majority tell you Ozzie hands down. They'll also tell you Ozzie doesn't get in if not for his defense(obviously)

When you say total package obviously that goes to Larkin's favor but due to his counting stats not being great(in some cases less than Ozzies') that will hurt him.

I hope he's compared to the guys in the first 10 years of his career. I hope he's given credit for being ahead of the curve as far as SS's go,(Cal Ripken Jr gets all the credit for that.)
My fear is he'll be compared to the guys in the last 9 years.

Again, I'm not arguing he shouldn't be in. If he played for the Yankees, Mets or Red Sox, Cooperstown would be trying to change the rules so he could already be in. But he played for Cincinnati, was never given due credit while he played by the mainstream press,(look back to Smith's last two or three Gold gloves,) and to the vast majority of America is looked at as a good not great player.