Trading EdE?

[fearofpopvol1]

Sorry, I know there is an influx of threads on this guy already.

Now, I'm as big of a fan of EdE as the next Reds fan and would love to keep him around, but sitting on the bench as much as he has been, he's not really helping the team. Clearly, Jerry's mancrush on Richie and his love for Rich's scrappiness isn't going away anytime soon. I'm sure he'll get an extension before the year is over (maybe 4 years). Although Castro has seen less playing time, I'm sure a Castro/Aurilia platoon at 3rd would make Jerry salivate.

So, why not trade EdE? Surely, he would fetch a decent starting pitcher. By the time he gets the everyday starts he should, his pysche may be damaged pretty badly. He should be a Red and he should be playing and he should be imrpoving, but he's not.

So, why not at least get something for him?

[boognish]

Narron's mismanagement of the roster is not a sufficient reason to trade a promising young third baseman. No.

[MartyFan]

I'm not sure what EE would bring at this time...I think at some point down the line EE will get his chance but he'll keep his chance when he outperforms his competition on the team.

I like EE but he is young and I don't think you give him the spot simply becauses he is young and a GOOD PROSPECT...we already went through that once at 3B a couple years back.

[KoryMac5]

Rich is going to be 35 no way we trade EE. Rich might get an extension or get traded at the deadline.

[keeganbrick]

EE isnt going anywhere.

[5TimeWSChamps]

I'm not sure what EE would bring at this time...I think at some point down the line EE will get his chance but he'll keep his chance when he outperforms his competition on the team.

I like EE but he is young and I don't think you give him the spot simply becauses he is young and a GOOD PROSPECT...we already went through that once at 3B a couple years back.
Willie Greene? ;)

http://www.cnnsi.com/baseball/mlb/features/1998/magpreview/images/BBREDS.jpg

My favorite Willie Greene picture ever

[nmculbreth]

I like EE but he is young and I don't think you give him the spot simply becauses he is young and a GOOD PROSPECT...we already went through that once at 3B a couple years back.

I don't think you should give him the spot because he's a young prospect, he earned the job in spring training and his play certainly hasn't merited him being relegated to a reserve role. Aurilia has done a nice job this season but the fact EdE is losing playing time to him makes me ill.

[Blue]

I'm not sure what EE would bring at this time...I think at some point down the line EE will get his chance but he'll keep his chance when he outperforms his competition on the team.

I like EE but he is young and I don't think you give him the spot simply becauses he is young and a GOOD PROSPECT...we already went through that once at 3B a couple years back.

He's already outperforming his competition on this team. He's also shown the ability to hit both righthanders and lefthanders, which Aurilia cannot.

I'm holding out for a trade of RA for Kyle Lohse.

[crazybob60]

When Rich leaves the Reds or retires in a few years, then who would be the 3B? Hopefully we have someone at the healm then who will recognize this, but I truly believe that the Reds FO still believes that Edwin is the 3B of the future!

[BoydsOfSummer]

They should send him to Louisville.Really. He's not going to play consistently up here and that can only hurt him. Leave him down there until he's 26 or 27. You know,just when he's ready to peak. Plus,by then he'll have that musty smell of veteran stank.

[flyer85]

When does Denorfia go back to AAA? We've heard all year he needs to play everyday.

[redsupport]

he may be scrappy by then

[MartyFan]

He's already outperforming his competition on this team. He's also shown the ability to hit both righthanders and lefthanders, which Aurilia cannot.

I'm holding out for a trade of RA for Kyle Lohse.

Hmmmm? Well, there are two sides of a coin...how many errors does the guy have at 3b? 15 Rich has 4 in just about half as much playing time there over the season while putting up comparable numbers at the plate.

EE

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2006 62 212 33 62 21 1 7 42 106 23 41 0 1 .384 .500 .292

RA
2006 72 256 42 73 17 1 13 38 131 23 31 1 0 .343 .512 .285

[crazybob60]

I am just hoping and praying by the Reds sitting him like this and such that he doesn't turn into the next version of a Brandon Larsen. That would be sad.

[MartyFan]

I am just hoping and praying by the Reds sitting him like this and such that he doesn't turn into the next version of a Brandon Larsen. That would be sad.

Braden Larsen is exactly who I was thinking of and him sitting is not going to make him choke the way Larsen did when he got to the big leagues. Him sitting may actually allow him to learn...he can still take fielding practice and while watching big league players every day can become more comfortable to take over the position next year or the year after.

If Lopez can be traded because he is making too many errors in the field after going to the All Star game the year prior I've pretty much got to believe that this FO knows what they want to see out of their players.

[ChatterRed]

My problem is, I like both EE and Richie. I also like Castro, Phillips, and Hatteberg. And I'm growing on Clayton. Huge problem finding all these guys playing time.

I especially like Freel getting his chance. He has a hot bat right now and is making things happen.

[edabbs44]

Hmmmm? Well, there are two sides of a coin...how many errors does the guy have at 3b? 15 Rich has 4 in just about half as much playing time there over the season while putting up comparable numbers at the plate.

EE

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2006 62 212 33 62 21 1 7 42 106 23 41 0 1 .384 .500 .292

RA
2006 72 256 42 73 17 1 13 38 131 23 31 1 0 .343 .512 .285
A great majority of RA's numbers have come vs LHPs. Take a look at his splits. He shouldn't be in the lineup vs righties, let alone being cemented in the 4 hole.

[edabbs44]

My problem is, I like both EE and Richie. I also like Castro, Phillips, and Hatteberg. And I'm growing on Clayton. Huge problem finding all these guys playing time.

I especially like Freel getting his chance. He has a hot bat right now and is making things happen.
Who are you, Narron? Oh wait, you said you like EE. Sorry.

[KronoRed]

Lopez had a lot of time to prove he wasn't a good SS, will EE?

A key thing to watch for is what the Reds do with the contract option they have on Rich, if they pick it up..I think it means they don't see EE as a 3rd baseman in their future plans.

[Redhook]

A key thing to watch for is what the Reds do with the contract option they have on Rich, if they pick it up..I think it means they don't see EE as a 3rd baseman in their future plans.

I like Aurilia and I believe he really helps this team, but I will be very upset if he's back on this team next year because Narrooon will play him over EE and stunt his growth. Used correctly, Aurilia would be a great asset next year, but I don't see him being used correctly unless Phillips is moved to SS and RA is at 2nd some of the time.

[GAC]

Hmmmm? Well, there are two sides of a coin...how many errors does the guy have at 3b? 15 Rich has 4 in just about half as much playing time there over the season while putting up comparable numbers at the plate.

EE

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2006 62 212 33 62 21 1 7 42 106 23 41 0 1 .384 .500 .292

RA
2006 72 256 42 73 17 1 13 38 131 23 31 1 0 .343 .512 .285

And that is the key. Comparable overall offensive production, but better defense from RA, when one compares Fielding %, RF, and ZR.

Edge - Aurilia.

This management (and especially Narron) had to make a choice....

They know that EE is young and showing that inexperience on the field from a defensive perspective, and at a very important position (3B).

And Krivsky/Narron also realize that EE isn't going to get better not playing. But he IS out there every day working hard, taking grounders, and working with the coaches to improve his game. And he is getting the occassional start THIS YEAR. And that is what is needed IMO.

So Narron can throw him out there, endure the mental defensive lapses/errors while they hope he grows/improves (that is not a given by the way). Or.... they can, for the present and while they are in a race/contention this year go with a guy who has performed admirably on both sides (offensively AND defensively).

People can laugh and mock "veteran presence" all they want; but there are advantages to it when compared to "rookie immaturity".

One gives you a track record of some consistency to go on (to gauge expectation)... the other does not. ;)

All one can say is that he has a possible "upside" (i.e. potential).

As far as suggesting trading EE simply because he has not been playing? That is a ridiculous notion, and management, IMO, is not even considering it.

[Heath]

And I'm still holding to the point of EdE's range is FAR SUPERIOR than Rich's cement shoes. Sure, Rich's got better numbers, but he lets more balls go past him. EdE can probably double the range of RA at third. EdE can make the spectacular plays - its the throwing of the easy ones that gets EdE.

IMO, this is one time that looking at the numbers is not the basis of a true fielder. Skill and talent levels and range also determine who should play.

I'm sure someone in the Elias Sports Bureau probably has stats to discuss the above opinion. Or, maybe Erin's main squeeze Cyclone has some numbers running around.

[bounty37h]

Reading many of the posts here, I am glad none of you are or ever will be our manager, myself included ;)

[dabvu2498]

And I'm still holding to the point of EdE's range is FAR SUPERIOR than Rich's cement shoes. Sure, Rich's got better numbers, but he lets more balls go past him. EdE can probably double the range of RA at third. EdE can make the spectacular plays - its the throwing of the easy ones that gets EdE.

IMO, this is one time that looking at the numbers is not the basis of a true fielder. Skill and talent levels and range also determine who should play.

I'm sure someone in the Elias Sports Bureau probably has stats to discuss the above opinion. Or, maybe Erin's main squeeze Cyclone has some numbers running around.
For what it's worth, I posted this:

I found this here: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._200_inni ngs

Below you will find listed the Reds and their ranking in the National League based on a stat for which you can find the methodology here: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._zone_rating1/

The stat that he uses to rank is called Runs Saved (vs. average at that position). I'm going to include Runs Saved/150 games. All rankings are based on players who have 200+ innings at their position.

C:
Larue: 2nd/25: 14 RS/150
Ross: 12th/25: 5 RS/150

1B:
Hatteberg: 2nd/21: 13 RS/150

2B:
Phillips: 5th/20: 5 RS/150

3B:
Aurilia: 9th/18: 12 RS/150
Encarnacion: 16th/18: -18 RS/150 (Ahead of D. Wright and M. Cabrera.)

SS:
Lopez: 17th/17: -19 RS/150 (Dead last)

LF:
Dunn: 18th/19: -17 RS/150 (Ahead of Preston Wilson)

CF:
Freel: 11th/20: -3 RS/150
Griffey: 20th/20: -21 RS/150 (Dead last)

RF:
Kearns: 5th/17: 4 RS/150
here on July 12th. Whole thread is here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48471

But as was said somewhere else on the board in the last day or two, defensive metrics usually aren't worth the time it talks to talk about them.

[dunner13]

Bottom line is that EE was given a chance earlier in the year to be the everyday thirdbaseman and he proved that he cant go more than a game without making an error. And pitching and defense wins championships. No doubt EE is better offensively then aurilla but until he figures out how to make a throw to third it wont matter.

[OUReds]

I have been trying not to think about the Aurilia/EE fiasco recently. It's just easier that way. I would, however, like to point out this wonderful kernel from the enquirer today.

CAN'T SIT HIM: Rich Aurilia was in the lineup again Thursday and playing third base.

"He got pretty hot this time last year," Narron said of Aurilia. "He gives you good at-bats. He battles every at-bat."

So apparently one of the reasons we get to see RA's monster .650 OPS against right handers every day is that, as Narron remembers it, he happened to be hot last year around this time.

Brilliant.

[puca]

And that is the key. Comparable overall offensive production, but better defense from RA, when one compares Fielding %, RF, and ZR.


The problem is that against right handers, which is when EdE sits, their offensive production is not comparable at all (.650 OPS versus .850 OPS).

[BRM]

The problem is that against right handers, which is when EdE sits, their offensive production is not comparable at all (.650 OPS versus .850 OPS).

Apparently, Rich's defense trumps the .200 point dropoff in OPS.

[Phil in BG]

When does Denorfia go back to AAA? We've heard all year he needs to play everyday.

You know, that is a very good point. That's the reason he wasn't on the big club all year....so he could play every day. Now we trade Kearns to open up a spot and don't play him....figure that out.

[puca]

Apparently, Rich's defense trumps the .200 point dropoff in OPS.

If that were the case, why play EdE even against left handers? It shouldn't hard to find a 1b that can hit lefthanders at a .750 clip. Actually they already have one in Hatt.

[BRM]

If that were the case, why play EdE even against left handers? It shouldn't hard to find a 1b that can hit lefthanders at a .750 clip. Actually they already have one in Hatt.


You'll have to ask Jerry that question. If defense is the reason Rich plays over EE against righties even with the enormous dropoff offensively, why play EE at all? If you are that worried about his defense, put him back in Louisville and let him work on it down there while getting consistent playing time.

[puca]

You'll have to ask Jerry that question. If defense is the reason Rich plays over EE against righties even with the enormous dropoff offensively, why play EE at all? If you are that worried about his defense, put him back in Louisville and let him work on it down there while getting consistent playing time.


Yep. I sure wish someone would explain that one to me.

[ChaseReds]

EE wont be traded and will play much more next year.

Lets face it OF is not everything. Small ball and pitching (something Narron and Special K are big fans of), produce consistent results.

That being said I would love the see EE get more playing time but with Narron's small ball mentality that wont happen anytime soon. EE will keep working to improve and Narron (who loves hard work more than a UDF Milkshake) will play him. :rolleyes:

[BRM]

Narron may prefer small ball but his Reds sure aren't playing much of it. They are scoring runs with patience and power, not small ball.

[ChaseReds]

Narron may prefer small ball but his Reds sure aren't playing much of it. They are scoring runs with patience and power, not small ball.

agreed!

[Spring~Fields]

And that is the key. Comparable overall offensive production, but better defense from RA, when one compares Fielding %, RF, and ZR.

Edge - Aurilia.

This management (and especially Narron) had to make a choice....

They know that EE is young and showing that inexperience on the field from a defensive perspective, and at a very important position (3B).

And Krivsky/Narron also realize that EE isn't going to get better not playing. But he IS out there every day working hard, taking grounders, and working with the coaches to improve his game. And he is getting the occassional start THIS YEAR. And that is what is needed IMO.

So Narron can throw him out there, endure the mental defensive lapses/errors while they hope he grows/improves (that is not a given by the way). Or.... they can, for the present and while they are in a race/contention this year go with a guy who has performed admirably on both sides (offensively AND defensively).

People can laugh and mock "veteran presence" all they want; but there are advantages to it when compared to "rookie immaturity".

One gives you a track record of some consistency to go on (to gauge expectation)... the other does not. ;)

All one can say is that he has a possible "upside" (i.e. potential).

As far as suggesting trading EE simply because he has not been playing? That is a ridiculous notion, and management, IMO, is not even considering it.

So would the same argument hold true if we were talking about Ross and Larue? (the points in bold inserting a comparison between Larue and Ross vs. RA and EE). Just curious why Larue or the other Valetin would get to scoop up much of Ross's playing time under your assertions.

[MississippiRed]

Excerpt from Hardball Times:

Chipper Jones is hot when healthy.

Chipper has been injured the last few games and may stay out of the Braves' lineup until Friday, which is too bad. He is in the midst of a monster hitting streak. Jones has hit in each of the last 20 games he's played, with a .512/.570/.939 batting line, eight home runs and nine doubles in 82 at-bats (Courtesy of David Pinto's Day-By-Day Database).

According to SABR's Trent McCotter, Larry Walker is the only player known to have hit .500 or better over a 20+ game hitting streak in the last 75 years. Hugh Duffy had the highest average over the entirety of any 20+ game streak, with a .545 average in 1894; and Harry Heilmann had the longest streak over which a .500+ average was maintained, with a 32-gamer from 1922 to 1923. (Another example of why you should join SABR.)

Chipper is hottest of the hot. Here are the top 10 batting averages over the past 20 games (thanks to Doug's Stats; minimum of 20 at-bats):

Batter Team BA
Jones, Chipper Atl .525
Encarnacion, Ed Cin .478
Randa, Joe Pit .469
Hatteberg, Scott Cin .446
Mackowiak, Rob Whi .444
Escobar, Alex Was .441
Barfield, Josh SDG .436
Utley, Chase Phi .424
Barrett, Michael Cub .422
Bell, David Phi .413
Isn't that a strange list of hot batters? Who would have guessed Scott Hatteberg would be having a great year, or that the Reds wouldn't play Edwin Encarnacion on a daily basis when he's on fire?

It's bad when I've started enjoying RA making outs against RH pitching, in the hopes that someone will realize that Edwin should be playing!

Michael

[SeeinRed]

Lopez had a lot of time to prove he wasn't a good SS, will EE?

A key thing to watch for is what the Reds do with the contract option they have on Rich, if they pick it up..I think it means they don't see EE as a 3rd baseman in their future plans.


Funny you bring that up. I mean, Lopez had plenty good enough offensive numbers. The problem was his defense. Kinda sounds like EE in a way. The difference that could be the saving grace of EE is his work ethic. However, I think we are seeing a very distinct transition from an offensively oriented team, to a defensive and fundamentaly oriented team (and dare I say pitching... no, not yet), and the reasons are hard to argue with. This team has been absolutely explosive on the offensive side for many years, but shown little for it in terms of success. Offense doesn't win championships. Its not as exciting for the casual fan, but I for one enjoy the hard nosed play of the Reds this year when things are going right. On the other side, when the team has lapses in it's judgement, the hard nosed style can look flat out ugly.

That just my opinion, but I think the future of EE depends upon his defensive production, not his offense.