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View Full Version : Castro should be the everyday SS



redbuck
07-28-2006, 12:08 AM
Clayton is below average offensively and defensively. Give me Castro, who won't wuss out while turning a double play, and always makes the pick, even with a bad hop. And Castro is not much of a step down from Clayton offensively. In fact, I think they are pretty even.

Start Clayton from time to time, but Castro should be the primary starter IMO.

Dunner44
07-28-2006, 12:13 AM
Over Clayton, yes Castro should start more often. Over other proven major leaguers with a decent bat, no. But he does get hot, which is a plus when he is in such a state.

kaldaniels
07-28-2006, 12:17 AM
So...this brings up a Castro question...is "Golden Hands" his nickname around the league or it is Georgie Boy's pet name for him.

vic715
07-28-2006, 12:27 AM
Clayton always seems to find a job as the everyday SS wherever he lands so he must not be to bad. As far as that DP in the 8th tonight I sure don't see that as his fault.It looked like Philips took his time lobbiing the ball over to him and the runner coming did a good job of breaking it up.I would however have no problem with Castro being the everyday SS.

Redsfanao
07-28-2006, 12:39 AM
I attended all three games at Minute Maid this week and I would agree that Castro should see a significant increase in playing time at SS. In addition to the should be double play ball of Wilson's bat that Clayton screwed up, IMO a good SS makes a 6-4 put out on ball Berkman hit of of Bray in the same inning. Clayton seems to have a well below average arm and is not much help offensively. To his credit, Clayton was out taking ground balls during BP before all three games.

redlegs7089
07-28-2006, 12:43 AM
i say phillips at ss, so my boy Edwin can play everyday

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 12:43 AM
So...this brings up a Castro question...is "Golden Hands" his nickname around the league or it is Georgie Boy's pet name for him.

Manos de Oro, Pies de Plomo.

Wheelhouse
07-28-2006, 01:01 AM
Castro is BETTER offensively as he will hit the occasional HR...

kheidg-
07-28-2006, 01:17 AM
God, I was hoping this thread was a joke. There is no way Castro should be starting on this team, even with Royce Clayton on it. Castro is not an everyday player and has proved that throughout his career. Now, I do not like Clayton starting everyday either - but that is what we have at this point and it is a hell of a lot better than throwing Castro out there every day.

I'd actually prefer they move Phillips there and leave 2B for Freel/Aurilia, but that won't happen. I'd also rather see Olmedo starting there, but that won't happen either. I guess we are stuck with Clayton starting 5 out of 7 games and Castro the other two.

ghettochild
07-28-2006, 01:20 AM
Bahahahahhahahahhaa.....


.....



....


Bahahahahhaahha

WMR
07-28-2006, 01:25 AM
I would take Aurilia at SS over Clayton.

That's not an endorsement of Aurilia's SS prowess by any stretch of the imagination, just an indictment of the suckiness of Clayton.

If Krivsky had some balls--well, wait the Kearns/Lopez trade shows that he *does* have balls, how about brains--he'd let the kid who came up throughout the minors as a SS make the move that would allow EE to play everyday and still keep Aurilia/Freel in the lineup. Guess that's too crazy to ask.

"We don't want to move him in-season." Gimme a flipping break.

MaineRed
07-28-2006, 06:18 AM
Wayne doesn't set the line-up and Clayton has been doing OK, even with the stick, since he got here. Not sure how people can say he sucks.

I'm not a Clayton fan but he doesn't suck.

StillFunkyB
07-28-2006, 07:08 AM
Wayne doesn't set the line-up and Clayton has been doing OK, even with the stick, since he got here. Not sure how people can say he sucks.

I'm not a Clayton fan but he doesn't suck.

Agreed.

Aurilia at SS? Really? I think I have better range, and I am out of shape, with a bum knee.

Castro is a good guy to have, off the bench.

Redhook
07-28-2006, 08:37 AM
Please, no Castro everyday. He's been doing well so far, but he'd quickly go back to his norm if he played everyday.

My question is this....why can't we try, just a game or two, Phillips at SS right now to see how it goes? He's played alot of SS in the past and I don't think it'd take him very long to get back in the groove over there. Then we could put RA at 2nd most of the time.

I really believe we need to put the best 8 guys on the field every single night. Right now, we're not.

Rob Dicken
07-28-2006, 08:55 AM
The play in the 8th, where Clayton threw the ball high, wasn't his fault.

The runner broke it up, but was clearly too far from the bag. It should have been called runner's interference, but Umpires are pretty blind these days.

ChatterRed
07-28-2006, 09:01 AM
RF Freel
CF Griffey
LF Dunn

1B Hatteberg/Aurillia
2B Phillips (no questions asked)
SS Castro/Clayton
3B Encarnacion/Aurillia

C Ross

SP Arroyo
SP Harang
SP Ramirez
SP Milton
SP (Bailey)?

RP Standridge
RP Coffey
RP Magic Man
RP Bray
RP Guardado
RP Shackelford
RP Belisle

Freel should play everyday and be the leadoff hitter. That gives you two baserunning threats in he and Phillips. Aurillia and Hatteberg have done nothing but play well this season.........and they are veterans.

I like this team. Aurillia isn't going anywhere because he can play any infield position there is, yet he is more than a utility player. I feel sorry for EE, but this is just the way things are. And Hatteberg just signed an extension, so he's not going anywhere either, nor should he.

RANDY IN INDY
07-28-2006, 09:31 AM
The play in the 8th, where Clayton threw the ball high, wasn't his fault.

The runner broke it up, but was clearly too far from the bag. It should have been called runner's interference, but Umpires are pretty blind these days.

They never call that, and after looking at the replay, while it was close, Backe could have reached out and touched the bag with his hand. I think Clayton just got his steps out of whack and had to throw off balance. Still doesn't look comfortable with Phillips' feeds on the DP's. While Phillips is spectacular at times, I think his throws and timing at second are still a little unorthodox and not as smooth as most second baseman. (He is a shortstop) It takes a while to get used to a new keystone partner and get the timing down. You can't always simulate every throwing angle and scenario in infield practice. Still, a play and a throw that Clayton should make. Matter of fact, in a pennant race, you have to make that play.

Heath
07-28-2006, 09:32 AM
This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds.......

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 09:43 AM
I seem to remember somebody (Cyclone, maybe?) posting defensive stats/metrics on Clayton, and his numbers were bad. Very bad.

Maybe those metrics weren't too far off.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Would a platoon of Castro and Clayton hurt until Krivsky can find a better solution? Neither seems to bring much offense to the Reds, Narron and Krivsky seem to be content with platooning at 1b and 3b.

Roy Tucker
07-28-2006, 10:17 AM
In my mind, the jury is still out on Clayton.

Besides that DP ball in the 8th, a good SS would have had that ball Berkman hit with all the overspin. Clayton let it eat him alive. And he's been shakier in the field than what I expected with the inopportune E6. I've chalked it up to getting used to the new team, but really, a 36 yr. old vet isn't supposed to do that.

I guess I got spoiled with Larkin, Davey, etc. at SS for so many years. They would *always* make the routine plays and darn near always make the spectacular. There hasn't been good, consistent SS play for the Reds since Larkin left.

westofyou
07-28-2006, 10:21 AM
I guess I got spoiled with Larkin, Davey, etc. at SS for so many years.

Some teams realities at SS has been the Reds at 3rd Base, Reds fans are spoiled, blessed.. either is an apt term.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 10:26 AM
Bottom 5 AL SS by VORP

Player Team EqA VORP
Nick Green TBA -.047 -9.1
Juan Castro MIN .200 -7.7
Russ Adams TOR .221 -6.5
Angel Berroa KCA .226 -5.9
Ramon Santiago DET .000 -5.4

registerthis
07-28-2006, 10:32 AM
I'm just disgusted that we've been reduced to arguing about whether Juan Castro or Royce Clayton should be our starting shortstop.

Good Lord.

RANDY IN INDY
07-28-2006, 10:33 AM
I'm just disgusted that we've been reduced to arguing about whether Juan Castro or Royce Clayton should be our starting shortstop.

Good Lord.

That does get some thought.:beerme:

flyer85
07-28-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm just disgusted that we've been reduced to arguing about whether Juan Castro or Royce Clayton should be our starting shortstop.
Which do you prefer, death by hanging or by firing squad?

Roy Tucker
07-28-2006, 10:58 AM
I'm just disgusted that we've been reduced to arguing about whether Juan Castro or Royce Clayton should be our starting shortstop.

Good Lord.
Indeed. This elicited a very wry chuckle from Roy.

Lord love a duck.

pedro
07-28-2006, 01:10 PM
Clayton is the best SS on the team. It may be sad. But it's true.


edit: except, of course, Phillips.

vic715
07-28-2006, 01:48 PM
Regardless whether its Castro or Clayton its still better than Lopez. At least when the ball goes over there I feel better about one of those two making a clean play over Him.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 02:03 PM
Regardless whether its Castro or Clayton its still better than Lopez. That is as faint as praise can get.

VR
07-28-2006, 02:10 PM
Castro doesn't turn the DP on the Wilson(?) ball, because he would have turned a DP on the ball that Berkman hit. He is a statue, but his positioning and freaky solid mechanics trump Claytons perceived athletecism. By a long shot.

RichRed
07-28-2006, 02:36 PM
This will all be solved as soon as we trade for Neifi Perez and move him to SS. :evil:

BRM
07-28-2006, 02:48 PM
This will all be solved as soon as we trade for Neifi Perez and move him to SS. :evil:

Compare Neifi's OPS of .636 to the Reds current SS duo:

Clayton .665
Castro .622

flyer85
07-28-2006, 02:51 PM
Compare Neifi's OPS of .636 to the Reds current SS duo:

Clayton .665
Castro .622heck I would love Adam Everett right now.

BRM
07-28-2006, 02:53 PM
heck I would love Adam Everett right now.

OPS of .627. He's the best defender in the group, right?

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 02:55 PM
That is as faint as praise can get.

And as blindly inaccurate.

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 02:56 PM
Regardless whether its Castro or Clayton its still better than Lopez. At least when the ball goes over there I feel better about one of those two making a clean play over Him.

Like those "clean" plays Clayton made last night? Remember, the ones that ended up costing the Reds about 3 runs?

westofyou
07-28-2006, 03:08 PM
Like those "clean" plays Clayton made last night? Remember, the ones that ended up costing the Reds about 3 runs?
You mean the one he had to reach back for, the floater from Phillips?

Nice throw maybe makes the play, a tall 1st baseman too.

Poorly executed by all.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 03:17 PM
OPS of .627. He's the best defender in the group, right?He's the best defensive SS in the league IMHO.

Cyclone792
07-28-2006, 03:57 PM
I seem to remember somebody (Cyclone, maybe?) posting defensive stats/metrics on Clayton, and his numbers were bad. Very bad.

Maybe those metrics weren't too far off.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48542 ... is what I posted following the trade. The part on Clayton's defense is copied below ...


How about defensively? Clayton is rumored to be a slick glove guy, but I'm not seeing any evidence supporting that assertion anymore. Defensively, here were the bottom eight shortstops in PMR for 2005:


Runs Above Average
Original Alternative

Derek Jeter -13.2134 -14.3688
Russ M Adams -13.4525 -13.4673
Royce Clayton -13.8171 -18.4288
Jhonny Peralta -15.0402 -14.8627
Felipe Lopez -18.5375 -21.2106
Angel Berroa -18.5556 -10.7785
Michael Young -19.2755 -17.3725
Jose Reyes -22.9404 -25.8656

Royce Clayton was a very good defensive shortstop from 1994-2003. In 2004, however, he had -10 fielding runs above average according to BP's metrics. In 2005, he had -3 fielding runs above average. In 2006, he has -6 fielding runs above average so far.

Whoever in the Reds organization is telling us that Royce Clayton is an outstanding defensive player is living in the past. Age has seemingly caught up to Clayton, and what was once a very good defensive shortstop is now below average.

PMR and FRAA disagreed on specifics with Clayton's defense, but they both painted him as a below average defensive shortstop. Better than Felipe Lopez, yep, but still below average. I'd have to say that's a pretty reasonable assessment.

If it was up to me who was going out there every day, several things would change. First, Phillips and Encarnacion would be playing every day at shortstop and third base, respectively. Griffey would be moved over to right field. Denorfia would be playing center field in approximately 75 percent of games with Freel filling in for the other 25 percent. Freel and Aurilia would then be splitting time at second base roughly 50/50. Hatteberg would be playing first base around 75 percent of the time with Aurilia filling in for the other 25 percent.

Denorfia, Freel, Aurilia and Hatteberg would essentially be rotating in and out, but all would be playing roughly three out of four games, and Encarnacion's bat would be in the lineup every day. Use the matchups and numbers vs. RHP/LHP for each player to determine game-by-game specifics, but that's the general ballpark of what I'd be going for.

That alignment would instantly improve the team defensively in both center field and at shortstop, both of which are critical defensive positions. Offensively the team would improve for the sole reason of Royce Clayton being relegated to the bench.

But who knows, I'm not determining who gets to play and where so ... :dunno:

Raisor
07-28-2006, 08:49 PM
Which do you prefer, death by hanging or by firing squad?


Firing squad. Unless you get someone that's good with tying the noose, there's too much of a chance of your neck not breaking and having to be strangled to death.

Firing squad has a much better chance of "one and done".

redbuck
07-28-2006, 09:45 PM
Clayton seems to get worse by the day. As I said, at least I know what I'm getting out of Castro. One of the best glove guys in the league; punch 'n judy at the plate. I'll take that any day over Clayton, who is bad in every aspect of the game. He is over the hill and his (already mediocre) skills have diminished quite a bit.

Hey, I'm not calling Castro a "good everyday SS." I'm just saying he's the best we've got.

NewEraReds
07-29-2006, 12:41 PM
rich at 2b
brandon at ss
encarnacion at 3b

TeamBoone
07-29-2006, 01:21 PM
Clayton seems to get worse by the day. As I said, at least I know what I'm getting out of Castro. One of the best glove guys in the league; punch 'n judy at the plate. I'll take that any day over Clayton, who is bad in every aspect of the game. He is over the hill and his (already mediocre) skills have diminished quite a bit.

Hey, I'm not calling Castro a "good everyday SS." I'm just saying he's the best we've got.

Well, Clayton made one hell of a game-winning play last night. He was digging all the way and never gave up.

I've also seen him make some darned good catches out by 3B.

Nothing against Castro, but I don't think Clayton is as bad as everyone makes him out to be. I don't want him forever, but for the rest of this year... I can handle it.

pedro
07-29-2006, 01:30 PM
Nothing against Castro, but I don't think Clayton is as bad as everyone makes him out to be. I don't want him forever, but for the rest of this year... I can handle it.

that's how I see it too TB.

jimbo
07-29-2006, 01:37 PM
Well, Clayton made one hell of a game-winning play last night. He was digging all the way and never gave up.

I've also seen him make some darned good catches out by 3B.

Nothing against Castro, but I don't think Clayton is as bad as everyone makes him out to be. I don't want him forever, but for the rest of this year... I can handle it.

I agree completely with your assessment. Clayton is not a long-term solution at SS, but is adequate enough to put there this season. He is an upgrade on defense from Lopez and that's why he's there.

fearofpopvol1
07-30-2006, 01:41 PM
What I don't get is obviously, Castro is good defensively. Castro had a hot bat going before, so why not play him more at SS? Between scrappy Rich and EdE getting a start at 3rd every 5th day, it's not likely he'll be playing much at 3rd. At least play him more often at SS.

westofyou
07-30-2006, 01:51 PM
What I don't get is obviously, Castro is good defensively. Castro had a hot bat going before, so why not play him more at SS?

Because he's a scrub?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 01:55 PM
Because he's a scrub?

I'll take Castro's crap stick and hustle over Clayton's crap stick and nonchalance.

westofyou
07-30-2006, 02:14 PM
I'll take Castro's crap stick and hustle over Clayton's crap stick and nonchalance.
Nonchalance?

Love it... keep em coming.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 02:18 PM
Nonchalance?

Love it... keep em coming.

Well, a journalist I respect a lot in Marc Lancaster pointed that out in his blog last night. Maybe I should disregard what he says. I don't know.

fearofpopvol1
07-30-2006, 02:19 PM
Because he's a scrub?

Even with 2 scrubs, you got to have a better scrub out of the 2. I'd take Castro (based on Royce as of late).

westofyou
07-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Well, a journalist I respect a lot in Marc Lancaster pointed that out in his blog last night. Maybe I should disregard what he says. I don't know.
I must have missed that...

WMR
04-01-2007, 07:19 AM
April Fools

Degenerate39
04-01-2007, 08:04 AM
April Fools

Damn you

kheidg-
04-01-2007, 02:23 PM
WilyMoROCKS, way to go with all the April Fools posts. Not only is it annoying, it is a waste of everyones time. Keep up the good work.

reds44
04-01-2007, 02:27 PM
WilyMoROCKS, way to go with all the April Fools posts. Not only is it annoying, it is a waste of everyones time. Keep up the good work.
I hate April Fools Day with a passion.

Worst day of the year.

TeamBoone
04-01-2007, 05:07 PM
WilyMoROCKS, way to go with all the April Fools posts. Not only is it annoying, it is a waste of everyones time. Keep up the good work.

Oh for Pete's sake... lighten up.