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View Full Version : Sparky, Pinnela, Johnson ..........



MaineRed
07-28-2006, 07:39 AM
Narron has the Reds leading the wild card, yet he is continually torn to shreds on this board. He gets accused of having man love for a guy putting up very good numbers. He gets accused of being in love with vets when one of the only other vets he plays is hitting above .300 and is the only true 1B on the roster. People want Freel and Deno to play, everyday, at the same position.

I just wonder what people think the Reds should be doing. Even when they go on the road and take 2 of 3, Narron still gets beat up. 3 Reds managers have taken them to the play-offs in the last 30 years. I'm curious, if they, or anyone else were managing the Reds, how big would the teams wild card lead be? Based on the simple decisions that Narron apparently gets wrong ALL THE TIME, it seems as though we should be up by at least 10 games at this point, ON THE CARDINALS.

I'm not looking for a debate on Narron. There are plenty of other threads for that. I just want to know, how many above .500 the Reds would be, if Sparky Anderson or Lou Pinnela were the skipper? Has Narron cost us 4 games? 8? 12? Is he responsible for every loss?

Clearly the guy stinks and has no business managing a big league club. I'd like to pinpoint just how badly he stinks.

VI_RedsFan
07-28-2006, 08:43 AM
Amen bro. I don't think Jerry gets nearly as much credit as he deserves on this board, sadly...

Redhook
07-28-2006, 09:22 AM
We'd probably have a playoff spot locked up if someone else was managing ;) . I have no idea how many games he has cost us or how many games he's helped us. I love the fact that we've been a winning team since Narron has got here. I think he's done a good job changing the atmosphere here and I think most of the players respect him. All that being said, I do believe he has made a few errors and is trending the wrong way with some of his decisions. Here's a few questionable moves:

1) The handling of EE, obviously. This has been beaten into the ground over and over again. Beyond the stats that prove EE should be playing (Cyclone made some great points in another current thread), the real problem I have is that Narron hasn't spoken to EE about this and really hasn't addressed it publicly. EE had the job, got hurt, and now has no job. There needs to be some explanation.

2) Griffey still batting 3rd. He has the worst OPS of all #3 hitters in the league. I love Jr. and I love watching him play. Just move him down a spot or two in the lineup. Just because Jr. is a hall-of-famer doesn't mean the manager should be scared to do what's best for the team.

3) The inconsistency with the lineup. I do think it is tough to get everyone playing time, but the way he throws the lineup together is ridiculous. I believe a more consistent lineup would breed more consistent results. During last night's game, they posted a stat that said the Reds are something like 2-23 when they score 2 or less runs. How in the world does this team have 25 games scoring 2 or less runs? It's unbelievable. You could argue it's not Narron's fault they didn't score more, but I disagree. Better placed hitters would result in more opportunities to score. I think a more consistent lineup would help when the power hitters on this teams slump a little bit.

4) The overuse of Harang and Arroyo. Yes, the bullpen has been poor, but he needs to save these guys a bit more, especially when we're losing late in the game.

5) Going with his heart to make some decisions. He needs to do less of this.

No manager is perfect. Some are better than others and I think Narron, overall, has done a good job. And he is much better than Boone and Miley. However, I really believe he is trending the wrong way with some of his recent decisions. I'm very happy with the Reds being over .500, but I do think if he addressed the 5 items above we'd be a little better for the rest of the season and the playoffs, if we make them.

GAC
07-28-2006, 09:28 AM
I'm not looking for a debate on Narron.


Clearly the guy stinks and has no business managing a big league club. I'd like to pinpoint just how badly he stinks.

You're not asking for it, yet you'r gonna get it. ;)

Casey Stengel once said that the hardest part of his job was filling out the lineup card daily (because he had a talented roster).

I don't deny that Narron has made some decisions/mistakes that have left me scratching my head at times. But when I look at the overall talent level on this team, and where we are at, he's done a good job.

I don't agree with this mindset that we've performed despite of a Narron.

Lou Pinella took a team to the WS that he did not construct. And Lou was just as bad with a pitching staff.

And we're listing three managers (Anderson, Pinella, and Johnson) who are "old school" in their thinking. ;)

Rob Dicken
07-28-2006, 10:30 AM
If we are to compare coaches....I always thought Jack McKeon was the BEST Manager we've had here in a LONG TIME.

The reason he was fired: Griffey and Larkin didn't like him.

Not saying they were wrong, but he won a World Series with the Marlins, and had a winning record with the Reds during the time.

To be perfectly honest, they probably didn't like McKeon because he didn't put up with the bullcrap the recent managers have here.

goreds2
07-28-2006, 12:49 PM
If we are to compare coaches....I always thought Jack McKeon was the BEST Manager we've had here in a LONG TIME.

The reason he was fired: Griffey and Larkin didn't like him.

Not saying they were wrong, but he won a World Series with the Marlins, and had a winning record with the Reds during the time.

To be perfectly honest, they probably didn't like McKeon because he didn't put up with the bullcrap the recent managers have here.

Very well said. :clap:

Highlifeman21
07-28-2006, 01:04 PM
Narron has the Reds leading the wild card, yet he is continually torn to shreds on this board. He gets accused of having man love for a guy putting up very good numbers. He gets accused of being in love with vets when one of the only other vets he plays is hitting above .300 and is the only true 1B on the roster. People want Freel and Deno to play, everyday, at the same position.
I just wonder what people think the Reds should be doing. Even when they go on the road and take 2 of 3, Narron still gets beat up. 3 Reds managers have taken them to the play-offs in the last 30 years. I'm curious, if they, or anyone else were managing the Reds, how big would the teams wild card lead be? Based on the simple decisions that Narron apparently gets wrong ALL THE TIME, it seems as though we should be up by at least 10 games at this point, ON THE CARDINALS.

I'm not looking for a debate on Narron. There are plenty of other threads for that. I just want to know, how many above .500 the Reds would be, if Sparky Anderson or Lou Pinnela were the skipper? Has Narron cost us 4 games? 8? 12? Is he responsible for every loss?

Clearly the guy stinks and has no business managing a big league club. I'd like to pinpoint just how badly he stinks.

Myth.

People want Denorfia to start in CF, and Freel most likely to start at 2B. Those aren't the same position, last time I checked.

Spend enough time on here, and people will tell you exactly what they think the Reds should be doing.

Sparky would have us contending for the division. Lou would have the WC locked up. Both of them knew how to manage starters and relievers. Sparky actually believed in putting the same 8 out there on a nightly basis, a concept foreign to Narron. Lou had the Nasty Boys, and leaned on them heavily, but he had to do something right to go Wire to Wire. Narron's getting by so far with his smoke and mirrors act. Expect the smoke to clear and the mirror to break.

Narron did such a bang up job down in Texas, didn't he? Narron is the lovechild of Dan O'Brien, and I honestly wish more than anything for the organization that Castellini and WK would have let Narron go at the end of this year and bring in their own guy, but unfortunately that didn't happen.

westofyou
07-28-2006, 01:15 PM
Sparky actually believed in putting the same 8 out there on a nightly basis

Myth, The Great Eight played only 88 games together as a starting lineup in 1975-76. They went 69-19 -- a .784 winning percentage. That's only 39% of the time, the rest of the time he was tinkering like every other manager not named Durocher.

Sparky believed in a set lineup though, as in set spots for players, but then again it was rare and pretty sweet nice to have 4 hall of fame vets flanking your infield.


Lou would have the WC locked up. Both of them knew how to manage starters and relievers.

Lou must have forgot in Seattle because he had a hell of a time with that part of the game in the late 90's.

MaineRed
07-28-2006, 01:16 PM
Plenty of people want Denorfia in right and realize moving Griffey out of center is easier said than done. Plenty of people also want Freel in right.

I don't care what Narron did in Texas. He is not being judged by that. We are talking about the present. Is that the problem? He stunk in Texas so he has no shot here?

What did Jack McKeon do in Cincinnati? Sure didn't keep him from winning the WS with Florida, did it?

I'm sure Sparky did believe on playing the same guys each day, especially when he had Rose, Morgan, Foster, Bench, Concepcion, Perez and Griffey.

Go check and see if Sparky used the same line-up each day when he was finishing last and had much less talent.

MaineRed
07-28-2006, 01:19 PM
I was posting at the same time as woy. Pretty amazing stat. I guess even Sparky couldn't keep himself from tinkering with the BRM.

And people expect Narron to not do it?

RichRed
07-28-2006, 01:30 PM
The fact that finer managers than Narron have made dumb mistakes doesn't make me feel any better about Jerry's dumb mistakes. Sparky could afford brain cramps every once in a while with the ridiculous talent he had. I don't feel the same way about Narron.

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 01:34 PM
The fact that finer managers than Narron have made dumb mistakes doesn't make me feel any better about Jerry's dumb mistakes. Sparky could afford brain cramps every once in a while with the ridiculous talent he had. I don't feel the same way about Narron.
So then we get back to the point that it really is 99.95% about the talent.

For example, Joe Torre is considered a genius for the way he uses his bullpen... yeah... no kidding.

Highlifeman21
07-28-2006, 04:21 PM
Myth, The Great Eight played only 88 games together as a starting lineup in 1975-76. They went 69-19 -- a .784 winning percentage. That's only 39% of the time, the rest of the time he was tinkering like every other manager not named Durocher.

Sparky believed in a set lineup though, as in set spots for players, but then again it was rare and pretty sweet nice to have 4 hall of fame vets flanking your infield.


Lou must have forgot in Seattle because he had a hell of a time with that part of the game in the late 90's.


I'd love to see a favorable 8 from us for 88 games. I'm curious as to what lineup Narron's trotted out there the most times this year, and the record for each lineup he pencils in.

Lou struggled with personnel in Seattle. He lacked the bullpen he had in Cincinnati. I believe he had a better offense, and some bigger name starters, but only had a way past his prime Norm Charlton.

Bottomline, give me McKeon, Anderson, Pinella, and then as a last resort with the gun to my head, Narron.

MaineRed
07-28-2006, 04:27 PM
That was 88 games over two years. That averages out to 44 per season.

Lou struggled with personnel, but meanwhile Narron is coaching the 27 Yankees, eh?

Chip R
07-28-2006, 04:35 PM
Yeah, I remember about 3 years ago how Narron's doppelganger Dusty Baker was such a genius. Now his head is on the chopping block.

princeton, was it 99 or 2000 when you were advocating McKeon should be fired mid-season?

westofyou
07-28-2006, 04:50 PM
I'd love to see a favorable 8 from us for 88 games. I'm curious as to what lineup Narron's trotted out there the most times this year, and the record for each lineup he pencils in.

Lou struggled with personnel in Seattle. He lacked the bullpen he had in Cincinnati. I believe he had a better offense, and some bigger name starters, but only had a way past his prime Norm Charlton.

Bottomline, give me McKeon, Anderson, Pinella, and then as a last resort with the gun to my head, Narron.
For his career Pinella averaged 120 different lineups a year and 378 Relievers

McKeon 101 lineups and 393 relievers (skewed by bad Marlins, in Cincy it was 360 or so)

Narron 123 lineups 464 relievers (skewed by Texas and Cincy)

LaRussa 133 Lineups 437 Relievers

Alou 128 and 451

Bochy 119 and 426

Garner 117 and 404

Francona 103 421

Baker 115 and 434

Cox 98 and 417

Robinson 127 and 452

Showalter 133 and 387

Torre 108 and 379.

vic715
07-28-2006, 07:04 PM
It seems most of the animosity on this board toward Narron is because Denorfia and EE aren't in the lineup everyday.Sure I'd like to see those kids get a shot but not at the expense of winning.Aurilia and Freel are playing well and the team is winning. I don't think JR is going to stay in a slump all year so there is really nowhere for Deno to play. EE could play 3rd and Aurilia at SS but that might make the infield defense worse than it was when Lopez was here.Right now as they say if it ain't broke then don't fix it.There Does seem to be a lotta depth on this team which is good so Narron does have tough choices at times on who to play where.If the lineup he puts out there executes then he looks like a genious. If they have an off night then he looks like an idiot.Right now I think he's doing a good job.And come September I may change my mind.

keeganbrick
07-28-2006, 07:31 PM
Krivsky has set this team up to win, not Narron. Now I still like Narron, he just has some moments where it looks like he has no clue what he is doing with when to pull starters and who to bring in for them and just the bullpen in general.

The EE situation upsets me at times but I just hope he gets him in there to play more as the season goes on.

SeeinRed
07-28-2006, 07:39 PM
I just think that it is hard to call a manager that takes over an abosolutely horrible underachieving team for half a season, and has them play .500 ball for the second half a bad manager. Then look what has happened this year with a team expected to finish a the bottom of the division. Narron just seems to get the most out of his players. Its hard to argue with a manager who keeps his team where the Reds are. Like his decisions or not, I just don't see how you can expect anything more out of this team, or manager, who many of you said were playing over their heads and were just pretenders earlier in the year.

killuminati35
07-28-2006, 08:07 PM
I think Narron has made his fair share of mistakes, such as Griffey in the 3 hole, and the wild line-up's, but I don't think his handling of EE is a mistake. He should probably explain it to EE, but it is pretty obvious why he isn't playing. He can't make a routine play. Plain and simple, he makes too many errors. Aurillia might have a slightly worse bat, but his defense is head and shoulders of EE. We need all the help on defense we can get.

IslandRed
07-28-2006, 08:50 PM
I was posting at the same time as woy. Pretty amazing stat. I guess even Sparky couldn't keep himself from tinkering with the BRM.

30 years after the fact, of course we all love Sparky. But he was criticized plenty back in the day, and if Redszone had existed in the early 1970s, he would have been shredded for the Captain Hook tendencies and as a general handy source of blame for the "can't win the big one" reputation the team had developed by 1975. Championship rings tend to induce selective amnesia.