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View Full Version : Lidle vs. Ramirez



RedsManRick
07-28-2006, 11:35 AM
Lidle: 8-7, 125 IP, 4.74 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 7.0 K/9, 2.5 K/BB, $3.3 Million
Ramirez: 4-6, 96 IP, 4.22, 1.30 WHIP, 6.0 K/9, 3.2 K/BB, $.3 Million

For as much as we dengrate O'Brien, there's something to be said for the trades he made when he did so proactively. His drafts appear to be good as well. Just sayin', not everything he did was bad.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 11:38 AM
Lidle: 8-7, 125 IP, 4.74 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 7.0 K/9, 2.5 K/BB, $3.3 Million
Ramirez: 4-6, 96 IP, 4.22, 1.30 WHIP, 6.0 K/9, 3.2 K/BB, $.3 Million

For as much as we dengrate O'Brien, there's something to be said for the trades he made when he did so proactively. His drafts appear to be good as well. Just sayin', not everything he did was bad.

The wake of Dan O'Brien will forever bear the stench of Milton, but I agree that some of his moves and particularly his second draft were quite good in retrospect.

BRM
07-28-2006, 11:43 AM
The wake of Dan O'Brien will forever bear the stench of Milton, but I agree that some of his moves and particularly his second draft were quite good in retrospect.

That's a fairly toxic stench. It's strong enough to overtake most of the good he did accomplish.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 11:44 AM
That's a fairly toxic stench. It's strong enough to overtake most of the good he did accomplish.

I agree. But I think it's also fair to say that it wasn't all bad.

Still, I don't want the guy anywhere near the Reds' organization again.

schroomytunes
07-28-2006, 11:53 AM
ok, lets look back at obrien. The main reason why I guess for his disliking is that he had no direction of where the organization was going. He held on to players too long that should have been jettisoned.(Casey,Larue,) and signed the worst FA pitcher on the market for GABP, at a ridiculous hand tieing contract. Although his drafts were ok, we never really landed anyone that could help us now, he had no creativity in wheeling and dealing. He seemed to always be the guy who left the poker table early. Also the man talked in circles to the media. But in his defense Lindner was not as easy to work for as Castellini.

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 12:04 PM
Don't forget O'Brien is the one who signed Cory Lidle for $2.75M in the first place and ended up paying him about $2M for 149 innings of 5.32 ERA. And he also asked for and received Machado in the deal instead of someone useful.

He got lucky with Ramirez.

He did seem to have a decent grasp of the draft, albeit by drafting long-term high school prospects instead of getting quick help by drafting college pitchers (something the organization needed badly).

When it came to major league operations, though, he was lost. Tom Hagen to Krivsky's Santino Corleone.

I'd rather have Michael Corleone running the family -- someone who's ruthless, but thoughtful and shrewd.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:10 PM
Don't forget O'Brien is the one who signed Cory Lidle for $2.75M in the first place and ended up paying him about $2M for 149 innings of 5.32 ERA. And he also asked for and received Machado in the deal instead of someone useful.

He got lucky with Ramirez.

And Wayne got lucky with Ross.

lollipopcurve
07-28-2006, 12:10 PM
He got lucky with Ramirez.

Reminds me of what we used to say as kids:

Opponent: "All luck."

Oneself: "All skill."

Trades that work out are good trades. Trades that don't are bad. I don't care who makes them.

paulrichjr
07-28-2006, 12:17 PM
ok, lets look back at obrien. The main reason why I guess for his disliking is that he had no direction of where the organization was going. He held on to players too long that should have been jettisoned.(Casey,Larue,) and signed the worst FA pitcher on the market for GABP, at a ridiculous hand tieing contract. Although his drafts were ok, we never really landed anyone that could help us now, he had no creativity in wheeling and dealing. He seemed to always be the guy who left the poker table early. Also the man talked in circles to the media. But in his defense Lindner was not as easy to work for as Castellini.

Most drafts don't help you now. I can count very very few players drafted in the last 3 years that are already helping out. As far as his first draft being bad which many say it was...He might just have gotten the best one out of the bunch with Homer. Time will tell but everyone on this board knows that this farm system is much stronger today than it has been in a long time and it isn't because of Bowden or Krivs.

I think the biggest problem with DanO was that he sold himself to the prior owner by stressing building for the long-run and he followed that plan completely. He couldn't do both which to be honest most GMs say that you are better off focusing on one or the other....Personally I would have loved DanO to be an assistant GM in charge of the draft...We would have been much better off with this scenario than what we got this year in my mind...

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 12:22 PM
Reminds me of what we used to say as kids:

Opponent: "All luck."

Oneself: "All skill."

Trades that work out are good trades. Trades that don't are bad. I don't care who makes them.

There's a little luck involved in all trades. The key to making "good" trades is to make a good analysis beforehand so that you minimize the luck factor.

RedsManRick
07-28-2006, 12:27 PM
Agreed Schroomy. Yes, we all hated the Milton deal. But his real problem was his complete inability to act timely and creatively. He was almost precisely the anti-bowden. He was inoffensive, quiet, and slow to decide. He cost us more in what he didn't do than by what he did. He reminds me a bit of an Allan Baird. Always "rebuilding" because he didn't have the guts to really do it all at once.

However, my point is simply that Elizardo is quietly morphing in to a very solid #4, perhaps #3 who I think we can pencil in to the rotation moving forward. It's been a long time since we had a starter that young turn in to a real major league guy.

Don't forget he also signed Randa and flipped him for a guy who is now Eddie Guardado and another who will be starting for us tomorrow. In the whole sheme of things, the trade is likely to be a footnote, but both the signing and trade proved to be solid moves.

oneupper
07-28-2006, 12:31 PM
I give some credit to Mario Soto and whoever thought to bring him aboard.

PuffyPig
07-28-2006, 12:32 PM
Lidle's stats are irrelevent at this stage. He was a FA, so he had as much chance of signing him as anyone. What we traded was 2 months of Lidle, back in 2004. It wouldn't matter id Lidle was the best pitcher in the league, it would still have been a great trade.

paulrichjr
07-28-2006, 12:36 PM
There's a little luck involved in all trades. The key to making "good" trades is to make a good analysis beforehand so that you minimize the luck factor.

Agreed...another way to say it is that hard work often leads to more luck. So is it luck or is it being smart?

I'm trying to get my younger brother (22 - I'm 38) to understand the difference between luck and hard work (being smart whatever you want to call it) Everyone he knows that is successful he always says stuff like they got lucky but I always try to show him ways that they took risk to make their "luck" happen. I believed the Lidle trade was a smart move when we made it and never could understand the venom pored out on DanO for that move as well as others like the Mercker deal, and the other trade with the Phillies that year that brought Moran (I think). Yes, he made some bad moves but his moves made a heck of a lot more sense that the junk Bowden pulled his last two years...trying to win when we had no chance and not trying to get prospects at the end of the deadline...

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Agreed...another way to say it is that hard work often leads to more luck. So is it luck or is it being smart?

I'm trying to get my younger brother (22 - I'm 38) to understand the difference between luck and hard work (being smart whatever you want to call it) Everyone he knows that is successful he always says stuff like they got lucky but I always try to show him ways that they took risk to make their "luck" happen.

Interesting discussion.

Luck is all the stuff that happens beyond your control.

Hard work is essential. Anyone can work hard, though.

Smart people can analyze a situation and figure out how to put that hard work to the best use -- particularly for finding ways to minimize the impact of the things that are out of your control.

GAC
07-28-2006, 01:05 PM
O'Brien had "rookie" love. ;)

RedsManRick
07-28-2006, 01:56 PM
I think O'Brien probably has a place in an organization in terms of young talent evalutation. However, I would not want him in charge of strategic decision making. Simple as that.

Jaycint
07-28-2006, 04:25 PM
And he also asked for and received Machado in the deal instead of someone useful.



Now there's a nightmare inducing name I haven't heard in a while. I wonder if he's still working for O'Brien? Maybe caddying for him at the county golf course?

BRM
07-28-2006, 04:30 PM
Now there's a nightmare inducing name I haven't heard in a while. I wonder if he's still working for O'Brien? Maybe caddying for him at the county golf course?

He's still with the Reds. Currently assigned to AA Chattanooga.

KronoRed
07-28-2006, 04:34 PM
Bring back Lidle

Lidle for Milton :D

Jaycint
07-28-2006, 04:41 PM
He's still with the Reds. Currently assigned to AA Chattanooga.

:scared: You mean he can still get me???

KronoRed
07-28-2006, 05:29 PM
:scared: You mean he can still get me???
Only if you like the lookouts ;)

kheidg-
07-29-2006, 03:09 AM
I don't like Milton, but I'd take Milton before Lidle any day of the week.

dougdirt
07-29-2006, 04:01 AM
Dano also got Javon Moran in that trade, who has hit .330 for the Reds between Dayton, Sarasota and now Chattanooga. That was a very good trade for the Reds.