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View Full Version : Carlos Lee to Texas?



RedsMan3203
07-28-2006, 12:10 PM
No article on it that I saw.....just this paragraph on ESPN

I knew he might get traded......the Rangers weren't the team I expected.

Carlos Lee To Be Dealt To Rangers

The Brewers are trading slugger Carlos Lee to the Rangers as part of a multi-player deal, ESPN's Keith Law has learned. The Brewers are sending Lee, Nelson Cruz and a player to be named to Texas for reliever Francisco Cordero and outfielders Kevin Mench and Laynce Nix. Both teams are working on the medicials.

Rob Dicken
07-28-2006, 12:11 PM
That's not a bad trade on both ends, really.

Redleg39
07-28-2006, 12:11 PM
No article on it that I saw.....just this paragraph on ESPN

I knew he might get traded......the Rangers weren't the team I expected.

Carlos Lee To Be Dealt To Rangers

The Brewers are trading slugger Carlos Lee to the Rangers as part of a multi-player deal, ESPN's Keith Law has learned. The Brewers are sending Lee, Nelson Cruz and a player to be named to Texas for reliever Francisco Cordero and outfielders Kevin Mench and Laynce Nix. Both teams are working on the medicials.

Yeah, I just read the same. Hey, If they can get this trade done during the day, we won't have to deal with Carlos tonight!

RBA
07-28-2006, 12:12 PM
And the flood gates are open! Come on Krivsky!!!!

cumberlandreds
07-28-2006, 12:12 PM
Good, get Lee out of town before tonight. He normally rakes against the Reds.

crazybob60
07-28-2006, 12:13 PM
So would this mean that Cordero would get a shot at being a closer again since Turnbow has hit a rough spot?

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:14 PM
Great trade for Milwaukee.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2006, 12:14 PM
That makes things real interesting, it should kick the market into turbo. :beerme:

captainmorgan07
07-28-2006, 12:16 PM
no lee tonite equals good things for the reds krivsky needs to jump on one of those starters perferably not lidel maybe redman

Jaycint
07-28-2006, 12:19 PM
Maybe the Brewers will have this done in time to get Big Head Mench in the lineup to kill us tonight.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:19 PM
Wayne, take notes. That's how you pick up a killer bullpen arm.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2006, 12:20 PM
Yeah I think we need to consider p/u up that bat and arm right about now. :help:

cincy09
07-28-2006, 12:22 PM
nice trade by the Brewers, glad we won't see Lee tonight!

Jaycint
07-28-2006, 12:23 PM
Wayne, take notes. That's how you pick up a killer bullpen arm.

He gives up a decent amount of hits and walks but he misses a lot of bats too. Would look a lot nicer in Red than the Weather man.

Anybody got the scoop on why he lost the closer job down there? Was he getting beat on too bad early this year or did he have an injury or something?

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:24 PM
nice trade by the Brewers, glad we won't see Lee tonight!

If the trade is legit, then I imagine the Brew Crew could be short-handed for tonight, but not tomorrow.

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 12:24 PM
Anybody got the scoop on why he lost the closer job down there? Was he getting beat on too bad early this year or did he have an injury or something?
Something along those lines... and Otsuka's been nasty as his replacement.

Jaycint
07-28-2006, 12:27 PM
Something along those lines... and Otsuka's been nasty as his replacement.

Man how nice would it have been if that supposed trade TC2 heard discussed had come to fruition sending Kinsler and Otsuka this way.

M2
07-28-2006, 12:27 PM
Great trade for Milwaukee.

I was thinking just the opposite. Cordero's getting lit up pretty well. Nix is useless and Cruz should be better than Mench.

I'd consider that a wholesale step backward for the Brewers if those are the the actual bodies involved. Good news for the Reds if it happens though.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:28 PM
I was thinking just the opposite. Cordero's getting lit up pretty well. Nix is useless and Cruz should be better than Mench.

I'd consider that a wholesale step backward for the Brewers if those are the the actual bodies involved. Good news for the Reds if it happens though.

I think Cordero will be very good in the NL. He K's a bunch of people and keeps the ball in a very tiny ballpark in Arlington. I think he'll be great in Milwaukee.

Milwaukee trades from a strength (offense) to pick up a weakness (killer reliever). It's a brilliant move for Milwaukee.

BuckU
07-28-2006, 12:29 PM
I would hope they sign Lee to an extension, if not, thats a steep price to pay for a rental...

lollipopcurve
07-28-2006, 12:32 PM
Unless the PTBNL is a decent arm, I'm surprised Texas moves Mench and Cordero without getting any pitching back.

M2
07-28-2006, 12:33 PM
I think Cordero will be very good in the NL.

He already plays in a division with three weak offenses, the NL's not going to be any more kindly to him than those teams.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2006, 12:33 PM
I think Cordero will be ok short term. Which should be just enough to make Milwaukee think he is their answer long-term. I know when we faced them was it last year or the year before we were getting to him! :thumbup: As a matter of fact he is perfect for us lots of walks & hits. We will make him throw strikes or he will get Turnbowed!

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:35 PM
He already plays in a division with three weak offenses, the NL's not going to be any more kindly to him than those teams.

What's your knock against him? His numbers are very good.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:35 PM
He already plays in a division with three weak offenses, the NL's not going to be any more kindly to him than those teams.

The AL's offenses dwarf the NL's overall. He'll flourish in the NL.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 12:38 PM
That's not a bad trade on both ends, really.Hopefully it is done by tonight

flyer85
07-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Kind of a hedge your bet trade for the Brewers, although I don't think that much of Mench/Nix, but Cordero has an intruiging arm`

IslandRed
07-28-2006, 12:45 PM
Kind of a hedge your bet trade for the Brewers, although I don't think that much of Mench/Nix, but Cordero has an intruiging arm`

That's what I was thinking -- I wasn't expecting a Lee trade to be a fence-straddling sort of deal. It's not strongly biased toward improving this year's Brewers or next year's. Cordero himself could be a rent-a-player if he doesn't pitch well enough to justify picking up his expensive option for 2007.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 12:46 PM
That's what I was thinking -- I wasn't expecting a Lee trade to be a fence-straddling sort of deal. It's not strongly biased toward improving this year's Brewers or next year's. Cordero himself could be a rent-a-player if he doesn't pitch well enough to justify picking up his expensive option for 2007.... and Mench is not cheap for his level of production.

I think this deal points that teams just aren't willing to give up top young prospects making the market very slow.

M2
07-28-2006, 12:46 PM
What's your knock against him? His numbers are very good.

4.81 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, .708 OPS against (high for a closer)

That's nowhere near "very good."

Plus, he's always struck me as a guy who's going to fold if his team starts playing meaningful games. Up against the better teams in the AL from 2003-2005 (Boston, New York, Minnesota, L.A. and Oakland), he's 27-41 (66%) in save chances. I've seen him turn into a *****cat a few times. Texas certainly didn't waste any time demoting him from closer when Otsuka became an option.

BRM
07-28-2006, 12:47 PM
Brewers trade Lee to Rangers, get Cordero
The Milwaukee Brewers are trading slugger Carlos Lee to the Texas Rangers as part of a multi-player deal, ESPN.com learned Friday.

The Brewers are sending Lee, minor-league outfield prospect Nelson Cruz and a player to be named later to the Rangers for relief pitcher Francisco Cordero and outfielders Kevin Mench and Laynce Nix.

Both teams are checking for any medical issues before consummating the deal.

The Rangers are currently two games behind the Athletics in the American League West.

LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2532418)

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 12:51 PM
4.81 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, .708 OPS against (awfully high for a closer)

That's nowhere near "very good."

Plus, he's always struck me as a guy who's going to fold if his team starts playing meaningful games. Up against the better teams in the AL from 2003-2005 (Boston, New York, Minnesota, L.A. and Oakland), he's 27-41 (66%) in save chances. I've seen him turn into a *****cat a few times. Texas certainly didn't waste any time demoting him from closer when Otsuka became an option.

I can live with his .708 OPSA, it's not the best, but for the AL and for that ballpark, it's pretty solid. And his Ks are very good.

And Milwaukee has a surfeit of offense--and Lee was going to be expensive. I agree that the deal appears to be a swap of rent-a-players, with Milwaukee's option of keeping Cordero through next year if he works out for them. The deal leaves Milwaukee with some interesting options overall.

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 12:52 PM
... and Mench is not cheap for his level of production.

I think this deal points that teams just aren't willing to give up top young prospects making the market very slow.
$2.8 million! Texas overpaid??? Never happens. ;)

Your comment about teams not wanting to give up prospects is spot-on, I'd say, and makes me think we could get something very tasty for a Bailey-Votto sandwich.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 12:54 PM
$2.8 million! Texas overpaid??? Never happen. ;)

Your comment about teams not wanting to give up prospects is spot-on, I'd say, and makes me think we could get something very tasty for a Bailey-Votto sandwich.I think the reason teams aren't dealing top young prospects is that the payoff in the ST doesn't justify the LT cost.

Joseph
07-28-2006, 12:58 PM
I thought Corey Hart was an answer in the OF for the Brewers, if they pick up two in return, does this mean Hart isn't in their plans or they are going to flip Mench to someone else?

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 12:59 PM
I think the reason teams aren't dealing top young prospects is that the payoff in the ST doesn't justify the LT cost.
Add in all the bad press (and internet bashing) that teams have gotten for trading Doyle Alexander for Smoltz, Bagwell for Larry Anderson, or Kazmir for Victor Zambrano and teams are gun-shy about trading a guy that might be the next Bagwell or Smoltz.

M2
07-28-2006, 01:00 PM
I can live with his .708 OPSA, it's not the best, but for the AL and for that ballpark, it's pretty solid. And his Ks are very good.

And Milwaukee has a surfeit of offense--and Lee was going to be expensive. I agree that the deal appears to be a swap of rent-a-players, with Milwaukee's option of keeping Cordero through next year if he works out for them. The deal leaves Milwaukee with some interesting options overall.

Nelson Cruz is the most interesting option in this deal and Milwaukee parted with him. Nix doesn't belong on a major league roster. Mench should be a bench player (especially when you've got Corey Hart kicking around).

Once a closer crosses over the .700 threshhold he starts to beg for trouble (think Danny Graves 2001). Plus, like I mentioned, Cordero's got spine problems.

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 01:00 PM
I thought Corey Hart was an answer in the OF for the Brewers, if they pick up two in return, does this mean Hart isn't in their plans or they are going to flip Mench to someone else?
Laynce Nix is a 4-5 OF at best.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Unless Cordero solidifies the closer role for the Brewers it is hard to see this being a net gain, kinda sounds like the Reds dealing away Kearns and Lopez.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 01:03 PM
Unless Cordero solidifies the closer role for the Brewers it is hard to see this being a net gain, kinda sounds like the Reds dealing away Kearns and Lopez.

Cruz is not a chip on a par with Kearns or Lopez. And Lee was a goner. Apples to cantaloupes.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:03 PM
Laynce Nix is a 4-5 OF at best.and possibly Mench as well. A sub 800 OPS playing half your games in one of the best hitters parks in baseball does not suggest a quality OF.

cincrazy
07-28-2006, 01:03 PM
I don't like this deal for Milwaukee. Nix is a good defender, but the guy's been injury prone, and hasn't shown signs of hitting in a few years. Cordero has been the AL version of Turnbow and Lidge this year, which is an absolute head case. The guy's blown like 9 out of 15 save chances. Danny Graves could convert more saves successfully than that ;). And Kevin Mench is ok, but most of his homers this year came during one hot week or two, and I don't exactly think he's going to move to a new league and a bigger ballpark and catch the world on fire. I just thought Milwaukee could get a lot more young, more promising prospects for Lee. Maybe Nix and Cordero just needed a change of scenery though like Phillips and Ross, so time will tell.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
07-28-2006, 01:05 PM
I thought Corey Hart was an answer in the OF for the Brewers, if they pick up two in return, does this mean Hart isn't in their plans or they are going to flip Mench to someone else?
Hoe about Mench, Turnbow, and bush, for Deno, Votto, and a couple low a pitchers.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:05 PM
Cruz is not a chip on a par with Kearns or Lopez. And Lee was a goner. Apples to cantaloupes.My point was the Brewers just sacrificed offense for the "potential" of an improved bullpen.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:06 PM
And Kevin Mench is ok, but most of his homers this year came during one hot week or tworight after he found out his shoes were too small. Mench is a real bobblehead.

Joseph
07-28-2006, 01:07 PM
Laynce Nix is a 4-5 OF at best.

Oh I realize that, but I'm saying that the math of having 5 OFs for 3 spots [Lee, Jenkins, Clark, Gross, and Hart] and dealing one of them for 2 more OFs makes it sound like Jim Bowden is running the team, or that Dan O'Brien is working there.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 01:07 PM
My point was the Brewers just sacrificed offense for the "potential" of an improved bullpen.

Good for the Brewers, then, that they already have a ton of offense even without Lee.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:14 PM
Good for the Brewers, then, that they already have a ton of offense even without Lee.Is it a net run gain? That is the real issue just like the Reds trade with the Nats. Is the sacrifice in offense made up by the improvement in pitching?

Falls City Beer
07-28-2006, 01:15 PM
Is it a net run gain? That is the real issue just like the Reds trade with the Nats. Is the sacrifice in offense made up by the improvement in pitching?

I imagine it will.

dabvu2498
07-28-2006, 01:16 PM
Oh I realize that, but I'm saying that the math of having 5 OFs for 3 spots [Lee, Jenkins, Clark, Gross, and Hart] and dealing one of them for 2 more OFs makes it sound like Jim Bowden is running the team, or that Dan O'Brien is working there.
Welcome to Nashville, Mr. Nix.

M2
07-28-2006, 01:20 PM
Cruz is not a chip on a par with Kearns or Lopez. And Lee was a goner. Apples to cantaloupes.

Lee was a goner and at $6 million for next season Cordero was a goner.

Now if Cordero stops showing his belly to every team that demonstrates some dominance and the Brewers leap back into the playoff chase as a result, then Cordero for Lee will be a good goner swap for Milwaukee.

Cruz could be a nice hitter the next three to five years, certainly better than Mench.

nmculbreth
07-28-2006, 01:25 PM
Great move for the Rangers, they acquire a legitimate power bat for two mediocre outfielders and an expensive reliever. Even if they lose him at the end of the season they'll get two compensatory draft picks, right? If so I think they win big.

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 01:26 PM
This is kind of funny. I looked up similar batters to Mench on BaseballReference.com, and guess who slots in at #7?

Austin Kearns.

Granted, their "Similar Batters" charts leave a lot to be desired...

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2006, 01:37 PM
I think the real question for me here is did Texas change their plan? They need pitching badly and it seems that their approach was to find some, and of the starting variety. Did they shift gears finding that pitching was gonna cost them too much, and decide to just try to outscore opponents? I still would like to see if there is still a chance of making some remnants of a swap with Texas of Germano and Clayton for Ian Kinsler (not likely i'm sure, I wouldn't do it if I were the Rangers). Also doesn't Texas need to replace at least Cordero right now or is there an arm in their organization to fill that in?

Either way I'm sure this heats up something for Soriano and Tejada (Anaheim). Because only one of those teams in the West is going to the playoffs.

EKURed
07-28-2006, 01:39 PM
I know that Lee is a FA, but I suspect he will like the park in Arlington and sign there. As far as the comparisons between the Reds trade, I am pretty confident that Carlos Lee is valued higher throughout baseball than Kearns/Lopez combined. Majewski is making the trade look not so good, but I think Reds' fans overvalued Kearns and Lopez by a substantial margin.

flyer85
07-28-2006, 01:45 PM
I think the real question for me here is did Texas change their plan? They need pitching badly and it seems that their approach was to find some, and of the starting varietyThey did get Adam Eaton back this week.

M2
07-28-2006, 02:05 PM
They did get Adam Eaton back this week.

They ought to send out a thug to re-injure him. Otherwise they might have to put the guy on the mound in a game that counts.

Ltlabner
07-28-2006, 02:12 PM
Great move for the Rangers, they acquire a legitimate power bat for two mediocre outfielders and an expensive reliever. Even if they lose him at the end of the season they'll get two compensatory draft picks, right? If so I think they win big.

So all the Brew Crew got in return for Lee was an expensive reliever with questionable numbers? What happened to this wide open bullpen market where solid arms are picked off the tree like ripe fruit? ;)

sig
07-28-2006, 02:16 PM
Kameron Loe will be back soon too. He could actually take Cordero's setup role if they don't put him back in the roatation. Long term the Rangers have the big 3 pitching prospects Danks, diamond, and Vasquez. I liked cordero but he just hasn't been producing since arm went dead after his big year a couple of years ago. I think if they can keep Lee past this year it is good for them. If not, i think they could have done better. I know Abreu is not having a good year but i'd just as soon have him. He'd be a good fit for the Park in Arlington.

IMO, the Rangers did this to show their core players like Young and Tex that they are trying to win now. Last year there was a lot criticism from within that they did not try to make moves to get into or remain in contention.

I don't they will move Kinsler though they have Drew Meyer who i think is as good at triple A. Meyer was drafted as a SS when they had AROD. I think they may move him to the outfield.

nmculbreth
07-28-2006, 02:32 PM
So all the Brew Crew got in return for Lee was an expensive reliever with questionable numbers? What happened to this wide open bullpen market where solid arms are picked off the tree like ripe fruit? ;)

Evidently the Reds and Brewers don't have access to said market. :)

Handofdeath
07-28-2006, 02:39 PM
I think if the Rangers can sign Lee to long term deal they have literally stolen from the Brewers. Cordero had two great seasons as a closer but this year mysteriously has seem to lost his stuff. Mench has never lived up to the potential the Rangers thought he had and Nix is not much more than a 4-A player at this point. The Rangers also got the Brewers Minor League Player of the Year from 2005. The Rangers get a guy who is on pace for 44 homers and 129 RBI's and is going to a far superior offense. The Rangers offense is going to be downright scary especially if it is firing on all cylinders. The Rangers got good pitchers but that will not matter until they change that ballpark.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2006, 02:39 PM
Apparently the PTBNL is Julian Cordero a minor league LHP.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/trade_deadline/index_06.jsp

Also MLB.com's guys break the trade down a bit. Actually they have it as Julian Cordero going to the Brewers.

REDREAD
07-28-2006, 03:04 PM
I know that Lee is a FA, but I suspect he will like the park in Arlington and sign there. As far as the comparisons between the Reds trade, I am pretty confident that Carlos Lee is valued higher throughout baseball than Kearns/Lopez combined. Majewski is making the trade look not so good, but I think Reds' fans overvalued Kearns and Lopez by a substantial margin.

Things to keep in mind though:
Carlos Lee was producing better than Kearns. (roughly a .050 OPS margin)
Kearns also cost 4 million less this year.
Both Kearns and Lopez are under Wash's control until after 2008, Lee is a FA after this year.
Codero might not be an elite closer, but he looks a lot better than Maj does.

Although I think the Rangers won this deal. I don't think the Brewers got robbed as bad as the Reds did :)

oregonred
07-28-2006, 03:35 PM
I'm with M2 on this one. Cordero #1 is a two month rental and the Brew Crew is done for 2006 regardless of what they manage to do this weekend. Lee was a huge chip and they didn't seem to get a lot of bankable '07 and beyond improvement. Cordero #2 must be the key component of the deal for Milwaukee??

Looks like a neutral to bad deal for the Brew Crew giving away both Lee + Cruz unless baby Cordero makes an impact. Rangers have the resources to sign Lee although low rev Milwaukee getting stuck with a 4/48M corner OF contract would have been a good thing for the rest of the NL Central.

Mench/Kearns is a good comparison. They are almost the same player but he's 2 years older and has posted 25 HR's twice. Same MLB service time and starting to get a lot more expensive next year. .800 career OPS Rightfielders.

oregonred
07-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Lee has been remarkablly consistent throughout his career with great years in 2004 and so far in 2006. He never seems to get hurt and has been an RBI/XBH machine since he arrived in the bigs

Offensive impact since 2002 (Kearns injury prone history really shows up in the key production stats)

Lee 2712 ABs, 148 HR, 487 RBI, 157 2B, 376BB
Kearns 1631 AB, 72HR, 267 RBI, 94 2B, 215BB

For fun;
DUNN 2391AB, 170HR, 402 RBI, 127 2B, 499BB :)

Blue
07-28-2006, 04:09 PM
Here's the real evidence that Cordero is a good pickup for the Brewers:

April ERA- 11.45
May ERA- 2.51
June ERA- 2.08
July ERA- 4.35 (his last appearance was terrible, raising his July ERA from below 1.00.)

I don't know enough about Mench and Cruz to make a judgement about this trade, but Cordero looks pretty good to me.

CTA513
07-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Here's the real evidence that Cordero is a good pickup for the Brewers:

April ERA- 11.45
May ERA- 2.51
June ERA- 2.08
July ERA- 4.35 (his last appearance was terrible, raising his July ERA from below 1.00.)

I don't know enough about Mench and Cruz to make a judgement about this trade, but Cordero looks pretty good to me.

Cordero was removed as the closer for the Rangers and has improved.
I dont know if the Brewers plan on making him a closer or not, but hes 6 for 15 in save opportunities this year.

REDREAD
07-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Maybe the Brewers plan on exercising Cordoro's option and selling him high next deadline? In other words, they feel they can get more for Cordoro next year than they can get for Lee right now.

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2006, 04:35 PM
Maybe the Brewers plan on exercising Cordoro's option and selling him high next deadline? In other words, they feel they can get more for Cordoro next year than they can get for Lee right now.

That's an interesting idea.

After all, bullpen arms are at a premium these days. ;)