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View Full Version : Will Carroll: Reds going after Craig Wilson



jmcclain19
07-29-2006, 10:10 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5358

First post


You haven't seen Wayne Krivsky's Reds in many trade rumors this weekend. That's not to say the Reds aren't trying to make moves. They have one offer out on a player that would really signal a new era in Cincy, though it's unlikely to happen.

And the follow up posted just a few minutes ago


The name? Craig Wilson. At least three teams are in on him right now, but once again, the Pirates are asking for the moon. The Reds willingness to get in on a rental player signals that they're looking to win now, whether it's to catch the Cards or to hang on to the wild card. The team is now willing to take on some salary if that's what's needed, a big change from the old ownership. Wilson is hardly the only name that the Reds have looked into, although their focus is still on pitching.

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 10:14 PM
What the heck would we need him for?
:dunno:

Matt700wlw
07-29-2006, 10:14 PM
I didn't know he was a pitcher

RedsMan3203
07-29-2006, 10:16 PM
Can he catch?

Jpup
07-29-2006, 10:16 PM
Maybe there will be a package of Wilson, Hernandez, and maybe Kip Wells or Oliver Perez. Denorfia could be going the other way, just a guess. Jack Wilson is also available and he can play short better than most, although he is expensive.

edabbs44
07-29-2006, 10:17 PM
Wayne must be out of his mind. I bet he would be the platoon mate of Hatteberg. RA should be starring in that role, but since Jerry thinks EdE is allergic to grass and clay, RA has to play 3rd at bat cleanup every game.

This would be a stupid acquisition.

captainmorgan07
07-29-2006, 10:17 PM
i hope not ollie he sucks kip has been pitching well

jmcclain19
07-29-2006, 10:18 PM
Can he catch?

Well, he was drafted as a catcher

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/draft/1995/Round-2-1.shtml

Jpup
07-29-2006, 10:18 PM
Wilson would play right field if the Reds got him, IMO.

traderumor
07-29-2006, 10:19 PM
What the heck would we need him for?
:dunno:A right-handed power hitter, which we currently have none. Wilson is a riddle wrapped in an enigma with the Pirates, who for some reason have decided that the poor guy should not only have to suit up for their pitiful franchise, but then bring in guys like Casey and Burnitz to keep him on the bench. And then when someone asks about him, they want top dollar for someone they clearly don't value. It's like he slept with Littlefield's teenage daughter and the propitiation is to sit the bench for a loser year after year.

LINEDRIVER
07-29-2006, 10:19 PM
Will Carroll.....Get real! Throw 5,000 pounds of mud against the wall and maybe an ounce will stick.

Joseph
07-29-2006, 10:20 PM
This acquisition would NOT signal a new era in Cincinnati. I don't know what Will Carroll is huffing, but this isn't one of those type pick ups.

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 10:20 PM
Wilson would play right field if the Reds got him, IMO.
Where does Freel go?

Someone tell Wayne you can't platoon every spot.

Hope this is just made up by a pirate fan.

KronoRed
07-29-2006, 10:22 PM
A right-handed power hitter, which we currently have none.
His power doesn't seem to be that much better then Aurilia's or EE's.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4593

Jpup
07-29-2006, 10:22 PM
Where does Freel go?

Someone tell Wayne you can't platoon every spot.

Hope this is just made up by a pirate fan.

I think Freel should play everyday, with that said, I don't believe Narron does. He's a "super-sub."

OTOH, the Reds need a power bat from the right side. It's sounds legit to me. Edwin doesn't count because he's not aloud to play.

Ltlabner
07-29-2006, 10:24 PM
Edit: I'm an idiot and read the numbers backwards. Sorry.

alloverjr
07-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Wilson would play right field if the Reds got him, IMO.

And people thought the infield defense was bad. This would be an unbelievable waste of resources be it player or money. If you're gonna shoot your wad Wayne, make it for a pitcher that can make a positive difference.

Jpup
07-29-2006, 10:27 PM
And people thought the infield defense was bad. This would be an unbelievable waste of resources be it player or money. If you're gonna shoot your wad Wayne, make it for a pitcher that can make a positive difference.

The word is that the Pirates are trying to dump salary, I would imagine that the Reds main target is Hernandez and Kip Wells with Pittsburgh wanting to include Craig Wilson. I would rather have Jack Wilson, but that's just me.

MWM
07-29-2006, 10:27 PM
I like Craig Wilson, but I wouldn't give up much to get him. He's been seriously misused by the Bucs over the years. But if they don't have to give up anything of real value that could be used to get a pitcher, he'd be a decent addition for the stretch run.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 10:27 PM
This acquisition would NOT signal a new era in Cincinnati. I don't know what Will Carroll is huffing, but this isn't one of those type pick ups.

I didn't read it that way. I understood it to mean there was one big monster trade that probably won't happen and then there was interest in Wilson. 2 completely seperate deals. But like you said, most trade rumors are just sprortswriters stirring the pot.

Aronchis
07-29-2006, 10:30 PM
Yep, nothing more than fluff you always get this time of year.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:30 PM
maybe he can play SS

alloverjr
07-29-2006, 10:31 PM
I read it the way Joseph did. If you must get a bat, SS is where they need it, although I'm scared to think where Clayton would play if they got one.

Jpup
07-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Wilson is hardly the only name that the Reds have looked into, although their focus is still on pitching.

I hope you guys didn't miss this part from Carroll.

MWM
07-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Hey Will, let me know what that Pete Rose statue looks like in the Hall of Fame? :evil:

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:33 PM
Honestly this Reds team is still a mish mash of ill fitting parts. We hear this talk of "improving the defense" yet they let 2 subpar defensive players man the two most important defensive positions.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2006, 10:36 PM
Honestly this Reds team is still a mish mash of ill fitting parts. .

It is. Both in terms of position players and pitchers, IMO.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:39 PM
It is. Both in terms of position players and pitchers, IMO.lineups, defense, etc. It is true from top to bottom.

Cedric
07-29-2006, 10:40 PM
It is. Both in terms of position players and pitchers, IMO.

That's why it's very imporant to have two big time starters and a nice lineup nucleus.

It's not a great team by any stretch, but it might be good enough to make games matter in Sep/Oct.

Isn't it fun?

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:48 PM
Isn't it fun?would be a lot more if they actually shored up the defense at SS and played Freel and EE everyday. The Reds are going to need the offense they provide to win the wildcard.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2006, 10:50 PM
would be a lot more if they actually shored up the defense at SS and played Freel and EE everyday. The Reds are going to need the offense they provide to win the wildcard.

Agreed. I'd rather win or lose with my best on the frontlines. No excuses.

Cedric
07-29-2006, 10:52 PM
Agreed. I'd rather win or lose with my best on the frontlines. No excuses.

Who the hell wouldn't?

You want Redszone to make the lineup tommorow? We aren't part of the process.

I just don't understand how you guys haven't figured out why Clayton and Aurilia play almost every night. It's absurd reasons, but you actually sound surprised by it. It's been that way forever in baseball. It's just a game based on tradition and reputation.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:54 PM
Who the hell wouldn't?

Jerry Narron :help:

It will be sad if this team goes down and everybody can see the Reds weren't put in the best position to win by their field manager.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2006, 10:54 PM
Who the hell wouldn't?

You want Redszone to make the lineup tommorow? We aren't part of the process.

I just don't understand how you guys haven't figured out why Clayton and Aurilia play almost every night. It's absurd reasons, but you actually sound surprised by it. It's been that way forever in baseball. It's just a game based on tradition and reputation.

Not at all surprised by it. I don't mind Rich being in the lineup. That's where I differ from a lot of people on here.

But if you can land one, just one, reason why Royce Clayton needs to be near this 25 man roster, I am ALL ears.

alloverjr
07-29-2006, 10:54 PM
Who the hell wouldn't?



Jerry. Although in his defense (which is damning), I think he believes he has the best out there every night.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 10:57 PM
Not at all surprised by it. I don't mind Rich being in the lineup. That's where I differ from a lot of people on here. I have never complained about it either(my dislike is playing at the expense of EE and BATTING CLEANUP). At least he has a reason for being, unlike Clayton.

Cedric
07-29-2006, 10:58 PM
Not at all surprised by it. I don't mind Rich being in the lineup. That's where I differ from a lot of people on here.

But if you can land one, just one, reason why Royce Clayton needs to be near this 25 man roster, I am ALL ears.

Chris gives you the reason that Royce is on this roster every night.

The perception that he will always make the routine play. Defensive reputation is more important than a few errors here or there in games. The veteran persona and the defensive reputation of Clayton is more important to the baseball manager than reality.

Sadly you know that's how it always goes in baseball because defensive stats aren't widely thought of in the dugout.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2006, 11:00 PM
Chris gives you the reason that Royce is on this roster every night.

The perception that he will always make the routine play. Defensive reputation is more important than a few errors here or there in games. The veteran persona and the defensive reputation of Clayton is more important to the baseball manager than reality.

Sadly you know that's how it always goes in baseball because defensive stats aren't widely thought of in the dugout.

Castro looks like Concepcion compared to Clayton.

Cedric
07-29-2006, 11:01 PM
But Castro has always been a bench player, Clayton a starter.

It's all part of the reputation. You don't trade for Clayton and then sit him for Castro.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2006, 11:02 PM
But Castro has always been a bench player, Clayton a starter.

It's all part of the reputation. You don't trade for Clayton and then sit him for Castro.

Then that's a problem that has its roots with GM, not Narron.

Idiot inertia is no great revelation, but the smart GM finds a way to buck "the old ways" of doing things in favor of the "right way of doing things."

They are often mutually exclusive company.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 11:02 PM
The perception that he will always make the routine play. ... and yet we can all see how wrong it is.

Dunn has been hot and yet on this trip outside of 2 innings of Buchholz this team has struggled to score.

edabbs44
07-29-2006, 11:12 PM
would be a lot more if they actually shored up the defense at SS and played Freel and EE everyday. The Reds are going to need the offense they provide to win the wildcard.
It's sad that this statement has to be made. It really is. Jerry needs to take a look at the lineup he puts out there on a nightly basis and make some adjustments.

1) Clayton and RA shouldn't be on the field with RHPs on the mound, period. Clayton is .239/.287/.315 and RA is .238/.288/.360. How can these facts be slipping by Narron? Those splits are flat-out disgusting. For comparison purposes, EdE is .284/.355/.473 vs RHPs. BP should at least be given a shot at SS, with Freel at 2b.
2) Griffey needs to be taken out of the 3 hole immediately. Jerry has acknowledged that he is struggling and will break out soon. No reason to keep hitting him 3rd, while we wait for this "breakout". If and when he does break out, then move him back.

After dealing AK and FeLo, Jerry has to be spot on with his lineups due to the loss of offense.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 11:15 PM
After dealing AK and FeLo, Jerry has to be spot on with his lineups due to the loss of offense.and as we are going to find out, it will start to hurt. But they are scrappy vets who know how to play the game, make the routine play, and play the game the right way.

Did I miss anything?

edabbs44
07-29-2006, 11:21 PM
and as we are going to find out, it will start to hurt. But they are scrappy vets who know how to play the game, make the routine play, and play the game the right way.

Did I miss anything?
Just the fact that we are finding out Royce sometimes has a problem with the routine play. All that BS we heard about how great a fielder he is sounds pretty funny now.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 11:23 PM
It's sad that this statement has to be made. It really is. Jerry needs to take a look at the lineup he puts out there on a nightly basis and make some adjustments.

1) Clayton and RA shouldn't be on the field with RHPs on the mound, period. Clayton is .239/.287/.315 and RA is .238/.288/.360. How can these facts be slipping by Narron? Those splits are flat-out disgusting. For comparison purposes, EdE is .284/.355/.473 vs RHPs. BP should at least be given a shot at SS, with Freel at 2b.
2) Griffey needs to be taken out of the 3 hole immediately. Jerry has acknowledged that he is struggling and will break out soon. No reason to keep hitting him 3rd, while we wait for this "breakout". If and when he does break out, then move him back.

After dealing AK and FeLo, Jerry has to be spot on with his lineups due to the loss of offense.

IMO heres how you use the current assets at your disposal to make a better team both offensively and defensively.

-1B becomes a Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon
-2B becomes Freels job for the next 50 some odd games
-SS is Phillips
-3B is EE
-LF Dunn
-RF Griffey
-CF Denorfia

Lineup:
2b Freel
CF Denorfia
LF Dunn
3B EE
RF Griffey
1B Hatteberg/Aurilia
SS Phillips
C Ross/LaRue

I saw someone extolling Narrons virtues as a leader in another thread. A good leader could convince Griffey to make that move to help the team. A competent manager could see these moves need made and are very realistic. Unfortunately Jerry is neither a good leader or a competent manager.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 11:24 PM
All that BS we heard about how great a fielder he is sounds pretty funny now.I knew it sounded funny then(at the time of trade) and I said so. If WK had to glorify CLayton to justify the trade I wasn't going to drink the Kool-Aid. I would have been happier if it was a 7 player deal minus Clayton.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 11:27 PM
I knew it sounded funny then(at the time of trade) and I said so. If WK had to glorify CLayton to justify the trade I wasn't going to drink the Kool-Aid. I would have been happier if it was a 7 player deal minus Clayton.

It didn't matter to me that he was part of the deal. Narron has a choice to play him or not.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 11:28 PM
It didn't matter to me that he was part of the deal. Narron has a choice to play him or not.I didn't want Narron t have the choice because I knew what was going to happen. I felt the Reds would have been better served to give Olmedo the job rather than Clayton.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2006, 11:29 PM
-1B becomes a Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon
-2B becomes Freels job for the next 50 some odd games
-SS is Phillips
-3B is EE
-LF Dunn
-RF Griffey
-CF Denorfia


I have been saying the same thing, but that just makes too much sense.

Screw the numbers. Screw the percentages. Go with your gut. Go with your heart.

flyer85
07-29-2006, 11:31 PM
Screw the numbers. Screw the percentages. Go with your gut. Go with your heart.Go with scrappy veterans who know how to play the game the right way.

Marc D
07-29-2006, 11:35 PM
I didn't want Narron t have the choice because I knew what was going to happen. I felt the Reds would have been better served to give Olmedo the job rather than Clayton.

Agreed. We all knew Narron couldn't kick his crappy vet addiction but that doesn't excuse him. Its his fault Clayton sees the field consistently.

KronoRed
07-30-2006, 02:14 AM
I would be extremely disappointed if we go out and use some of our limited trading chips to get a bat, O is not going to be a problem in the long run this year, did we lose some with Lopez and Kearns gone? yep, but still the main problem is going to be pitching pitching and more pitching.

buckeyenut
07-30-2006, 09:00 AM
IMO heres how you use the current assets at your disposal to make a better team both offensively and defensively.

-1B becomes a Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon
-2B becomes Freels job for the next 50 some odd games
-SS is Phillips
-3B is EE
-LF Dunn
-RF Griffey
-CF Denorfia

Lineup:
2b Freel
CF Denorfia
LF Dunn
3B EE
RF Griffey
1B Hatteberg/Aurilia
SS Phillips
C Ross/LaRue

I saw someone extolling Narrons virtues as a leader in another thread. A good leader could convince Griffey to make that move to help the team. A competent manager could see these moves need made and are very realistic. Unfortunately Jerry is neither a good leader or a competent manager.
If you are going to have the conversation about the #3 spot, why not have the conversation about moving to RF and having denorfia play CF where you can take advantage of the speed and range?

Krusty
07-30-2006, 09:17 AM
Say what you want about the players we got from Washington but take a look at the team's record since the allstar break and the bullpen's team ERA. Trade looks like a success so far.

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 09:45 AM
Say what you want about the players we got from Washington but take a look at the team's record since the allstar break and the bullpen's team ERA. Trade looks like a success so far.
Again, it was extremely easy to make a trade and lower the BP's ERA. They also could have dealt Bruce and Bailey and lowered the team's ERA. But was it the right move? They could have gotten some vets for low-level prospects and then permanently fixed the BP in the off-season.

johngalt
07-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Say what you want about the players we got from Washington but take a look at the team's record since the allstar break and the bullpen's team ERA. Trade looks like a success so far.

The bullpen ERA lowering has a lot more to do with Guardado's arrival and the fact that some of the other guys have pitched better in their roles. Majewski and Bray certainly haven't helped lower it.

The other factor has been Dunn, Aurilia, Hatteberg and Encarnacion swinging the bat extremely well. They've been carrying the team offensively to just score enough runs in many cases.

I'd venture to say the Reds have been winning in spite of that trade, not because of it.

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 11:18 AM
The bullpen ERA lowering has a lot more to do with Guardado's arrival and the fact that some of the other guys have pitched better in their roles. Majewski and Bray certainly haven't helped lower it.

The other factor has been Dunn, Aurilia, Hatteberg and Encarnacion swinging the bat extremely well. They've been carrying the team offensively to just score enough runs in many cases.

I'd venture to say the Reds have been winning in spite of that trade, not because of it.
EdE is swinging the bat well? When? During batting practice?

Ltlabner
07-30-2006, 01:47 PM
They could have gotten some vets for low-level prospects and then permanently fixed the BP in the off-season.

And as the team faded away we'd be more interested in mowing the yard and the impending Bengals season instead of the frenzy of trade rumers and the possibility of being in it at the end. No thanks.

MWM
07-30-2006, 02:02 PM
EdE is swinging the bat well? When? During batting practice?

You do realize he has a line of .375/.444/.531 since coming back from the DL? He's been on fire since coming back.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 02:03 PM
You do realize he has a line of .375/.444/.531 since coming back from the DL? He's been on fire since coming back.

I think he's goofing on the fact that we fans only get to see EdE play during batting practice due to Jerry's benchings.

MWM
07-30-2006, 02:05 PM
Ah, my bad.

johngalt
07-30-2006, 02:54 PM
You do realize he has a line of .375/.444/.531 since coming back from the DL? He's been on fire since coming back.

Good thinking, Kruger.

MWM
07-30-2006, 03:12 PM
Good thinking, Kruger.

I'm not too worried about it.

johngalt
07-30-2006, 03:17 PM
I'm not too worried about it.

Well, I am!!!

(Too bad there's no Costanza emoticon.)

KronoRed
07-30-2006, 03:23 PM
Chill out all..we have no control over anything

:D

ochre
07-30-2006, 03:26 PM
Chill out all..we have no control over anything

:D
You, sir, control the smilies! On that we can depend.