PDA

View Full Version : Outfield defense ... it's killing me



osuceltic
07-30-2006, 12:35 PM
I know there are some of you who discount defense in the outfield. I don't. The eighth inning last night is a great example of the lousy outfield defense on this team. First, Dunn's lazy play turned Hall's single into a double (and eliminated a tailor-made double play from the next batter), then Junior let a ball drop that no other center fielder in baseball would have let drop. It was unbelievable.

One of those two will be gone or playing another position next season. Krivsky knows the value of playing great defense -- he has addressed it at other positions. It's just a matter of time until he gets to the outfield.

Dunner44
07-30-2006, 12:39 PM
Griffey is responsible for the run in the 6th that was credited ot Geronimo. He should have caught that ball, which would have meant another out, and no RISP.

osuceltic
07-30-2006, 12:42 PM
Griffey is responsible for the run in the 6th that was credited ot Geronimo. He should have caught that ball, which would have meant another out, and no RISP.
Yep. Forgot about that one. The eighth inning wiped out some of my short-term memory.

alloverjr
07-30-2006, 01:10 PM
One of those two will be gone or playing another position next season. Krivsky knows the value of playing great defense -- he has addressed it at other positions. It's just a matter of time until he gets to the outfield.

Knows the value so well that he picked up Clayton. Yuch. Be careful what you wish for.

... Although I agree with you on the Dunn gaff and JR's inability to move.

Redleg39
07-30-2006, 01:49 PM
Yeah, as bad as Majewski has been since coming over, last night he shouldn't of had any runs against him. He pitched well enough to get out of the 8th last night.

redbuck
07-30-2006, 01:53 PM
That play from Griffey was atrocious. Not surprising, but atrocious. He has the worst range of any CF in baseball. Never thought I would say that. And it tells you that he is the exact opposite of a "team player" in his refusal to move to RF for the betterment of the team. Griffey should insist that Freel or Denorfia play CF since he can't catch a ball that lands 5 feet from where he was standing when it was hit.

edit-- and obviously he would stink in RF too, but I would rather have him stinking up the joint in RF than CF where you need to cover more ground.

BenHayes
07-30-2006, 02:00 PM
The play in the 8th inning was irrelevant because even if he caught it, wasn't there a runner on third anyway. He certainly would have scored on the sacrifice fly because there is no chance at throwing him out after diving. The biggest problem with the outfield defense is that all of them except Freel play pretty deep allowing a lot of weak hits to fall in.

2001MUgrad
07-30-2006, 06:45 PM
The Defense in general kills me on a daily basis at pretty much every position. Hatteberg is solid at first, but other than him its been watch out this year.

demas863
07-30-2006, 07:50 PM
That play from Griffey was atrocious. Not surprising, but atrocious. He has the worst range of any CF in baseball. Never thought I would say that. And it tells you that he is the exact opposite of a "team player" in his refusal to move to RF for the betterment of the team. Griffey should insist that Freel or Denorfia play CF since he can't catch a ball that lands 5 feet from where he was standing when it was hit.

edit-- and obviously he would stink in RF too, but I would rather have him stinking up the joint in RF than CF where you need to cover more ground.
Can't go to right. He'll blow his hamstring with the sudden stops. Griff's starting to look old and overweight. Home stats atrocious. Discipline seems to be gone as he appears to be fading but when he wakes up and carries the team during the final push to the playoffs we'll all love the guy again and forget we ever wrote nasty things about him.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2006, 10:49 PM
Clayton is a great fielder. My 1998 MLB Year in Review magazine says so.

Wheelhouse
07-30-2006, 11:54 PM
I know there are some of you who discount defense in the outfield. I don't. The eighth inning last night is a great example of the lousy outfield defense on this team. First, Dunn's lazy play turned Hall's single into a double (and eliminated a tailor-made double play from the next batter), then Junior let a ball drop that no other center fielder in baseball would have let drop. It was unbelievable.

One of those two will be gone or playing another position next season. Krivsky knows the value of playing great defense -- he has addressed it at other positions. It's just a matter of time until he gets to the outfield.

The problem is that defense is the hardest aspect of the game to describe in terms of statistics--and thereby has less importance according to the flawed logic of statheads. Backing up a point-of-view (to them) exclusively means backing it up with numbers, and if there are no numbers for something, then it must not exist, or at least, it has no importance.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 12:52 AM
The problem is that defense is the hardest aspect of the game to describe in terms of statistics--and thereby has less importance according to the flawed logic of statheads. Backing up a point-of-view (to them) exclusively means backing it up with numbers, and if there are no numbers for something, then it must not exist, or at least, it has no importance.

A complete misportrayal of "statheads."

Weak. Very weak.
:thumbdown

KySteveH
07-31-2006, 02:08 AM
Knows the value so well that he picked up Clayton. Yuch. Be careful what you wish for.

... Although I agree with you on the Dunn gaff and JR's inability to move.
Clayton > Lopez.

That wasn't even the point of that trade, but we did upgrade our defense slightly at SS.

Rob Dicken
07-31-2006, 08:45 AM
Can't go to right. He'll blow his hamstring with the sudden stops.

Wow a Griffey injury knock. That's something that's never been said before.


The play in the 8th inning was irrelevant because even if he caught it, wasn't there a runner on third anyway. He certainly would have scored on the sacrifice fly because there is no chance at throwing him out after diving. The biggest problem with the outfield defense is that all of them except Freel play pretty deep allowing a lot of weak hits to fall in.

The question is: What would you rather have? Him dive for the ball and possibly miss it, creating extra bases instead of a base hit? Either way, the guy was going to score on third base, just like you said.

Glad I wasn't the only one to pick that up. :thumbup:

And yes, the outfield plays pretty deep....too deep.

44Magnum
07-31-2006, 09:41 AM
Griffey is way done defensively! Dunn is what he is. If Dunn would drop 30 lbs., he would be much better.

2001MUgrad
07-31-2006, 09:49 AM
Griffey is way done defensively! Dunn is what he is. If Dunn would drop 30 lbs., he would be much better.

And become what?? If he dropped that much weight he would change completely as a player. It might be good, it might not be. I'm guessing he would transform into a Sean cassey type hitter if he dropped that much weight. Its not like he is out of shape.

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 09:53 AM
And become what?? If he dropped that much weight he would change completely as a player. It might be good, it might not be. I'm guessing he would transform into a Sean cassey type hitter if he dropped that much weight. Its not like he is out of shape.
Actually, Dunn has put on quite a bit of weight since he reached the majors and it isn't muscle. He's a little heavy. I don't think that's debatable. But there are other guys who play like that. I'm convinced Dunn would be better offensively and defensively if he were in better shape. It bothers me a little, but the dumb, lazy plays like the other night bother me more.

Still, if he hits the way he has been hitting, he can carry a tub of ice cream to left field with him.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 09:56 AM
Clayton > Lopez.

That wasn't even the point of that trade, but we did upgrade our defense slightly at SS.
And lost a ton in offense.

44Magnum
07-31-2006, 09:57 AM
And become what?? If he dropped that much weight he would change completely as a player. It might be good, it might not be. I'm guessing he would transform into a Sean cassey type hitter if he dropped that much weight. Its not like he is out of shape.

Did you see Dunn on the play where he blasted the Brewer's catcher? He was completely done (no pun intended) rounding third base. If you think him dropping down to 250 lbs. would affect his power, etc., you are mistaken. He is at least 280 lbs. now. His body fat is way too high.

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 10:20 AM
And lost a ton in offense.
Not this month, which really is all that's relevant. The OPS is about .650 - .644 in Lopez's favor, and the batting average is about 25 points in Clayton's favor.

Now, there's no question that Lopez is a better hitter than Clayton, but this isn't the Lopez from the first half of last season anymore. He's still better than Clayton, but he's not really a premier offensive shortstop anymore. And he's terrible defensively. Clayton isn't Ozzie Smith, but he's a definite upgrade. I know I felt better when that game-ending DP ball was hit to Clayton the other night than I would have if it had been Lopez.

Really, the only thing wrong with the offense since the trade has been Junior's atrocious slump and the injury to Ross -- and the slump by Phillips, although he's showing signs of coming out of it. You get those three back to swinging the bats the way they're capable, and the team will be scoring a bunch of runs again. But with Freel producing the way he has, I don't think the offensive numbers have been greatly affected by the trade.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 10:27 AM
I love how we're talking about Lopez as if he's past his prime at age 26. :laugh:

TeamBoone
07-31-2006, 03:27 PM
So... now that most people can no longer rag on Adam Dunn for his hitting, a new topic must be found so that the nagging can continue unabated. What happens after he loses 30 pounds?

Good Grief! Will it ever end? There are so many more deserving things to complain about, and a whole lot to be happy about as well.

demas863
07-31-2006, 05:27 PM
Wow a Griffey injury knock. That's something that's never been said before.



The question is: What would you rather have? Him dive for the ball and possibly miss it, creating extra bases instead of a base hit? Either way, the guy was going to score on third base, just like you said.

Glad I wasn't the only one to pick that up. :thumbup:

And yes, the outfield plays pretty deep....too deep.
Perhaps a bit more explanation. Griffey would be prone to sudden stops in left or right due to the stands. It is the sudden stops (or starts) that result in most of the instances of reinjuring a damaged hamstring. His trainers have said this. Hatcher has said this. Narron has said this. But what do they know. It's pretty evident that he's not currently making any sudden starts in center thus resulting in what is obviously a loss of range. It would be a much more difficult task to avoid sudden stops in the corner positions. He's not going to right. He's not going to left. Mark it down.

Always Red
07-31-2006, 08:00 PM
He's not going to right. He's not going to left. Mark it down.
Then the outfield defense will not get any better.

Junior has been a great center fielder, but his wheels are shot; through no fault of his own. Heck, even the great Mickey Mantle spent the last 2 years of his career at first base.

He'll finish this year out in CF, then he is either a LF, 1B or DH.:dunno:

dabvu2498
08-01-2006, 10:20 AM
So... now that most people can no longer rag on Adam Dunn for his hitting, a new topic must be found so that the nagging can continue unabated. What happens after he loses 30 pounds?

He stays healthier and plays longer. Maybe he plays better.

44Magnum
08-01-2006, 03:25 PM
He stays healthier and plays longer. Maybe he plays better.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

registerthis
08-01-2006, 03:40 PM
I love how we're talking about Lopez as if he's past his prime at age 26. :laugh:

That's OK, Dontrelle Willis is apparently a washed-up 24 year old.