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flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:18 AM
a poster is reporting that Zach Ward will be traded to the Twins for Kyle Lohse.

BTW, Lohse has been one of the unluckiest pitchers in all of baseball to this point. (H% of 35 and Strand % of 57 ). He has been as unlucky as Cormier has been lucky.

Just saying.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49422

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Awful trade if this is indeed true.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 11:23 AM
I would be a little upset. Lohse is horrible. And so much for Bob's pledge to spend money.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 11:24 AM
Awful trade if this is indeed true.

Completely agree. Whether Lohse has been unlucky or not. He makes a decent salary and IIRC, is arbitration eligible again this offseason. Ward has a bright future and is one of the prospects I had hoped the Reds would hang onto along with Bailey, Cueto, and Travis Wood.

NC Reds
07-31-2006, 11:25 AM
If true, another Krivsky stinker. If he loves the Twins so much, feel free to move back to Minnesota.

Joseph
07-31-2006, 11:25 AM
You can't say Castellini isn't spending money. If you want to disparage him, do so for allowing them to spend BAD money. These two trades would add what 5 million to the payroll?

wolfboy
07-31-2006, 11:26 AM
I would be a little upset. Lohse is horrible. And so much for Bob's pledge to spend money.

Bob's pledge to spend money is probably irrelevant. I don't think money has anything to do with it. We just don't have the chips to bring in the big names on the market.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 11:27 AM
You can't say Castellini isn't spending money. If you want to disparage him, do so for allowing them to spend BAD money. These two trades would add what 5 million to the payroll?
My bad...you are correct. I guess he could have traded for Pavano and spent money. Usually when you add payroll it means you are getting better, which is what I took his pledge to mean. Lohse is no better than Mays.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 11:28 AM
Bob's pledge to spend money is probably irrelevant. I don't think money has anything to do with it. We just don't have the chips to bring in the big names on the market.
I can't agree with that. The Yankees gave up next to nothing for Abreu and Lidle. I don't expect Bob to drop $20 mil at the deadline, but there has to be a happy medium.

Kc61
07-31-2006, 11:29 AM
If this is true it suggests that the Reds were not going to trade their top prospects for a veteran pitcher this year. Bailey, Bruce and Votto remain (so far) as do Wood and Cueto.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:30 AM
Lohse on the season has an xERA of 3.96

Over the last month with a h% of 24 and a strand% of 69(just average) his ERA has been 3.18

wolfboy
07-31-2006, 11:34 AM
a poster is reporting that Zach Ward will be traded to the Twins for Kyle Lohse.

BTW, Lohse has been one of the unluckiest pitchers in all of baseball to this point. (H% of 35 and Strand % of 57 ). He has been as unlucky as Cormier has been lucky.

Just saying.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49422

Point taken with his BABIP, but there are still some glaring red flags with this guy. 8 HR in 63 IP. His K/9 rate is the best it's been in his career, but it's still not that great. His K:BB is bad, and has been for years. RH batters have been murdering him this year. .904 OPSA and 7 of those 8 HR.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:41 AM
Point taken with his BABIP, but there are still some glaring red flags with this guy. 8 HR in 63 IP. His K/9 rate is the best it's been in his career, but it's still not that great. His K:BB is bad, and has been for years. RH batters have been murdering him this year. .904 OPSA and 7 of those 8 HR.if he didn't have warts the Twins wouldn't be wanting to trade him. He is simply a roll of the dice just like the acquisition of Majewski and Cormier. Bray is different, he actually has BPIs that support his success to this point.

TRF
07-31-2006, 11:41 AM
He hasn't started a game since May. If this is another bullpen addition, I'm ok with it. If he's going into the rotation, I'd have rather the Reds not traded Germano to the Phillies. I saw Germano as a slightly lesser version of the Lizard. but he did have a good first start. And if your number 5 guy can go 6 while only giving up 4 runs, then Phillie gets what they want. Lohse should not start a game for the Reds, but I am worried he will.

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2006, 11:42 AM
Marc's blog is now reporting the deal as done.

LawFive
07-31-2006, 11:43 AM
...for Zach Ward, per Marc.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Yuck.

smith288
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
wow... just, like, wow.

Joseph
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Booooooo!

Thats all I have to say about this one.

Puffy
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Lohse on the season has an xERA of 3.96

Over the last month with a h% of 24 and a strand% of 69(just average) his ERA has been 3.18

In the bullpen. He's been much better since they moved him to the bullpen.

I highly doubt the Reds plan to leave him in the bullpen.

wheels
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
We all knew this would happen.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Another awful trade by Krivsky. You trade a guy with great stuff like Ward for total crap like Lohse? Bring back Joe Mays!

Krivsky is regressing to Dan O'Brien's level.

Reds4Life
07-31-2006, 11:45 AM
Ugh.

Let me repeat, UGH.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:45 AM
I think Lohse is likely insurance at this point in case Claussen isn't healthy. I can't see Milton coming out even if he completely implodes.

deltachi8
07-31-2006, 11:45 AM
Wayne had me until this one.

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 11:45 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg ghhhhhhhhh!

registerthis
07-31-2006, 11:46 AM
As a starter or a reliever, though? That is the question.

NC Reds
07-31-2006, 11:46 AM
Krivsky has manlove for former Twins.

Lohse won't cure anything. I would rather try and develop Ward into something. I loved Ward's ground ball ratio. The bloom is way off the Krivsky rose. :angry:

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 11:46 AM
Wayne. Step away from the phones and go out side for a walk.

Wow.

zombie-a-go-go
07-31-2006, 11:47 AM
Remind me to skip the 5:00 news conference. :cool:

Puffy
07-31-2006, 11:47 AM
Marc's blog is now reporting the deal as done.

Then this is a horrible trade. Lohse is a bad pitcher, no ifs ands or buts. I happen to like Ward, but still as a prospect so far away he could never make it to the show, but still a horrible trade. Trading for guys like Lohse means actually using him in games.

Its Williams, Mays all over again, IMO. Lohse will have an ERA over 5 the rest of the year.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 11:47 AM
This is horrible. I had seen Ward pitch several times at Dayton and he was a good young prospect. Lohse has been horrible this year. ERA over 7 with the Twins he was demoted to the minors and has been pitching in relief. Lohse is going to get hit hard here. I don't like giving up a promising prospect for another failed 5th starter.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:47 AM
BTW, Zach Ward is no better prospect than Jason Germano.

A 22 year old having success in Low A vs a 23 year old having some success in AAA.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 11:48 AM
The bloom is way off the Krivsky rose. :angry:

i can live with these little BS pickups so long as they don't cost the Reds much of anything. I just hope WayneK doesn't expect Lohse to be the rotation's savior.

And this fascination with ex-Twins is getting tiresome.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 11:49 AM
Lohse....I guess he's better than Mays. Hell, I'm better than Mays.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:49 AM
I guess we will see, I view this trade no differently than Cormier. Giving up very little for a roll of the dice and I do not feel uncomfortable saying Lohse is likely to have as much or more success than Rheal Cormier.

Tommyjohn25
07-31-2006, 11:50 AM
How many games has Ward had a hand in winning for the Reds this year? I'll take it. Better than Mays/Claussen/Williams.

princeton
07-31-2006, 11:50 AM
As a starter or a reliever, though? That is the question.

exactly. He's a power righty arm who would complete this bullpen. But who comes out of the bullpen to start?

as a starter, he's better than what we've got but if he couldn't get it done with Rick Anderson, then he's not going to get it done for Tom Hume.

Need a lefty starter not a righty, but my guess is that he's too pricey for our pen, and that he's starting...

registerthis
07-31-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't like giving up a promising prospect for another failed 5th starter.

I don't know how promising Zach Ward was, though. Not saying whether he was or wasn't--I honestly don't know. I do know that BA didn't have him in the Reds Top 10 prospects list, but they did say he had the best slider in the Reds system.

RedsManRick
07-31-2006, 11:51 AM
Uggh. He adds nothing to the roster which wasn't already in AAA. He's not better than Mays. Look at both of their histories with the Twins. He's essentially a younger Joe Mays. Given, Zach Ward will likely never accomplish even what Lohse has, but I just don't see the sense in getting him. At least Ward has an outside chance of being a good major league starter.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:51 AM
I see this trade no differently than dealing for Cormier. Give up a little(Ward is certainly no better a prospect than Germano) for a roll of the dice.

Kc61
07-31-2006, 11:52 AM
Hate to give up Ward, but I'll trust Wayne's judgment.

Two remaining questions:

1. Which Reds pitcher is going, to make room? I'd guess Standridge or
Shack.

2. Will there be one more deal for a hitter?

LawFive
07-31-2006, 11:52 AM
I can't figure out why the Reds are wasting $3.85M (prorata) on Lohse when they have in-house options (Claussen, Gosling) that would be just as ineffective.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 11:52 AM
If Lohse goes to the BP, then it is overkill since he has already gotten 4 arms for the BP.

If he goes in the rotation, then that is just a sick joke he is playing on Reds fans everywhere.

And if the FO actually thinks that the fans are going to be happy with this move, then they have another thing coming.

zombie-a-go-go
07-31-2006, 11:53 AM
If Lohse is going to be pitching out of the pen, then this move - along with the Cormier trade - may be a precursor to something else this afternoon. I don't know why he'd go into the rotation when Claussen (who was a completely different pitcher in the second half last season) is almost ready to return.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 11:53 AM
If Lohse is the 5th starter what happens to Claussen.

Chip R
07-31-2006, 11:54 AM
Since there is a seperate thread about this trade, I'm just going to close this one up. In the meantime, this thread is available for your dining and dancing pleasure.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49426

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 11:54 AM
Well, I guess this probably means we're done for the day?

If so, what a stinker to end on.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 11:54 AM
Now I understand why Ward was not promoted to high A.

Keep those numbers looking good in low A.

ochre
07-31-2006, 11:54 AM
I don't know how promising Zach Ward was, though. Not saying whether he was or wasn't--I honestly don't know. I do know that BA didn't have him in the Reds Top 10 prospects list, but they did say he had the best slider in the Reds system.
My dad's seen him pitch a few times this year. Says he has a pretty quirky delivery. A couple of pictures I have seen of him make it look like he throws pretty severely across his body. Could be an injury concern there. I'm pretty blah about this trade. Fairly ambivalent about Ward as a prospect and not too excited about Lohse (at least as a starter).

Puffy
07-31-2006, 11:55 AM
Lohse in the bullpen - color me unimpressed, but nothing more. He can get it up there pretty good, and in small doses out of the Twins pen he has been pretty solid.

Lohse in the rotation - another 5 plus starter. Whoopty do.

Joseph
07-31-2006, 11:55 AM
I almost bet Lohse goes right in to our rotation immediately.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 11:55 AM
exactly. He's a power righty arm who would complete this bullpen. But who comes out of the bullpen to start?

as a starter, he's better than what we've got but if he couldn't get it done with Rick Anderson, then he's not going to get it done for Tom Hume.

Need a lefty starter not a righty, but my guess is that he's too pricey for our pen, and that he's starting...

A "power" arm who can't strike batters out and has control problems.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 11:56 AM
Ward supposedly has great stuff. A sinking fastball that can touch 95 and the best slider is the organization. His stats were terrific - 0.97 WHIP, 2.29 ERA, 2 HR allowed in 114 innings, 37 bb/95 k rate, and his GO/FO ratio was something like 4:1.

Bad, bad, bad deal.

Wayne is regressing to Dan O'Brien's level.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 11:56 AM
I almost bet Lohse goes right in to our rotation immediately.
My guess is Lohse starts Saturday which is the next time they needed the 5th starter.

lollipopcurve
07-31-2006, 11:57 AM
I have no problem with this trade. (And I haven't been a big fan of some of WK's other moves, at least at first blush.....) I could be dead wrong, but I think Lohse can fill the #4/#5 spot just fine. Ward was in single A (while fellow 05 college draftees Lecure and Avery were ahead of him at Sarasota), and, in my view, his funky mechanics make him a BP guy long-term. It's very likely he was several places back in the prospect line angling at the starting rotation (behind Homer, Wood, Dumatrait, Pelland, Cueto and perhaps others), so I feel the prospect resources are not significantly affected here.

Lohse threw 170-210 innings for 3 years for the Twins, and, entering the NL with something to prove (he was very unhappy in Minnesota, according to reports), I think he's got a good chance to rebound nicely.

I could be wrong, but I believe this is another incremental improvement to the major league staff, with more upside than downside.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 11:57 AM
I think Claussen moves back into his role as the 5th starter(on Saturday, he is scheduled for a rehab start tonight) and Lohse is insurance because currently the Reds have nobody in the pen who is likely to step in in case of injury/implosion.

Puffy
07-31-2006, 11:57 AM
My guess is Lohse starts Saturday which is the next time they needed the 5th starter.

Yeah, thats what I think too.

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 11:58 AM
For the last three years, his ERA as a RELIEVER is 3.00

traderumor
07-31-2006, 11:58 AM
Minny thought so highly of Lohse that they took a middling A-baller for him seems to be my take.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 11:58 AM
Would it be safe to assume that Ward was one of the organization's (already thin) top 10 prospects?

westofyou
07-31-2006, 11:59 AM
BP had this to say about Lohse... prior to this season in their annual.


"Not a stathead's type of pitcher, but not everybody can crank out a Quality Starts half the time, and if that's your 4th or 5th starter then you have something."

I wonder what the spin will be on this acqusition?

With the stink from this year his stock has dropped like pets.com, in 4 starts in AAA he is 2-1 with a 1.50 ERA and 2 complete games.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 12:01 PM
My guess is Lohse starts Saturday which is the next time they needed the 5th starter.

Oh great. I have tickets to that game.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 12:02 PM
If Lohse is going to be pitching out of the pen, then this move - along with the Cormier trade - may be a precursor to something else this afternoon.

Boy I hope so.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 12:02 PM
I think Wayne has done a good job, but I think another move has to be made. If Cormier and Lohse are both put in the bullpen and then he turns around and trades Majewski to someone like the Royals to get Mark Redman (to use as their 5th starter) and some prospects, I would have to think we'd be much improved. With Lohse in the 5th starter spot and only Cormier added to the bullpen, I'd be concerned.

15fan
07-31-2006, 12:03 PM
What's really cool is thinking about what the Reds will look like in 5 or 6 years.

Joe Mauer will be behind the plate, Justin Morneau will be at first, Torii Hunter will be in center, and the rotation will be anchored by Francisco Liriano and Johann Santana.

That'll be sweet.

TRF
07-31-2006, 12:03 PM
Cormier became the twelfth member of the pitching staff. Lohse is number 13. I'm thinking Standridge is likely the odd man out here, and that's a shame, because against RH hitters he's been flat out dominating this year. He should never see a LH hitter though. Shack is the same but just the opposite.

So what it really comes down to is the pen needed upgrading because Narron doesn't know how to use the parts he has. Great.

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 12:03 PM
I could live with him in the BP if it meant that Weathers was leaving

westofyou
07-31-2006, 12:04 PM
Oh great. I have tickets to that game.
Poor you going to a major league game... I feel your pain.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 12:04 PM
Now I understand why Ward was not promoted to high A.

Keep those numbers looking good in low A.
For Lohse, I'm not sure it would have mattered if he got pounded in High A. Lohse's ERA makes DWill look like a star.

princeton
07-31-2006, 12:05 PM
Minny thought so highly of Lohse that they took a middling A-baller for him seems to be my take.

they'd have kept him if cheap, but given his contract would need to nontender him at the end of this season. As we might also

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 12:06 PM
What's really cool is thinking about what the Reds will look like in 5 or 6 years.

Joe Mauer will be behind the plate, Justin Morneau will be at first, Torii Hunter will be in center, and the rotation will be anchored by Francisco Liriano and Johann Santana.

That'll be sweet.

Don't bet on it. Krivsky only seems interested in acquiring the crappy Twins.

Do we have any space on our roster for Al Newman?

princeton
07-31-2006, 12:07 PM
A "power" arm who can't strike batters out.

how's your "I hate Arroyo" bumper sticker holding up?

marcshoe
07-31-2006, 12:07 PM
A "power" arm who can't strike batters out and has control problems.


Well, his k/9 this year has gone up to 6.50. Of course all the rest of his numbers are lousy.

I know nothing about him except he seems to be incredibly overpaid for his numbers, and he pronounces his name funny.

zombie-a-go-go
07-31-2006, 12:07 PM
What's really cool is thinking about what the Reds will look like in 5 or 6 years.

Joe Mauer will be behind the plate, Justin Morneau will be at first, Torii Hunter will be in center, and the rotation will be anchored by Francisco Liriano and Johann Santana.

That'll be sweet.

:lol:

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 12:07 PM
I'm very, very happy that we didn't give up any of our starters (on the team I mean, not pitchers). Ward is a promising prospect, but that loss really does not affect our team in any way. I don't think this team could have weathered much more of its core removed with both Kearns and Lopez gone, on top of all the changes that have already happened this year. This seems like a pretty low-risk move to me. We're all on track to sign a nice free agent starting pitcher in the off-season :D

LawFive
07-31-2006, 12:08 PM
Maybe it's a trade for next year, too. Weathers, Mercker, Cormier, and maybe even Guardado (depending on his cuff) could all feasibly retire at the end of this season.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 12:09 PM
they'd have kept him if cheap, but given his contract would need to nontender him at the end of this season. As we might alsoI hadn't researched his salary and contract yet, but remembered seeing that he has a healthy sum due him and figured that factored in the return, which you just confirmed. Honestly, that makes him a pretty expensive swingman, so maybe renting him is indeed in view.

Kc61
07-31-2006, 12:10 PM
Maybe it's a trade for next year, too. Weathers, Mercker, Cormier, and maybe even Guardado (depending on his cuff) could all feasibly retire at the end of this season.

I don't believe Lohse is going to the pen. They wouldn't have taken on his salary for that. I'm certain he's the fifth starter.

deltachi8
07-31-2006, 12:10 PM
I see this trade no differently than dealing for Cormier. Give up a little(Ward is certainly no better a prospect than Germano) for a roll of the dice.

I see your point Ric - however I think the roll of the dice of KL is a much bigger gamble. Cormier has had success this year while Lohse has not even sniffed average this year.

Im not concerned about what the Reds gave up in either of these deals, I am concerned about the return in the 2nd deal doing more harm than good.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 12:11 PM
makes you wonder if the Reds had waited a week if they could have gotten Baker for Kearns or Lopez (Twins need OF help and a 3b).

RedsManRick
07-31-2006, 12:15 PM
FWIW, Lohse has been pretty effective this year as a reliever.

25.1 IP, 22 K, 6 BB

I know there are sample size issues abound there. But I could think of worse middle relief options right now.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 12:15 PM
Lohse last 10 app's in the 'pen, since June 27th:

Pretty impressive.

19 IP
14 H
2 BB
15 K
0.84 WHIP
2.84 ERA

First 8 starts of the season:

Scary.

8 GS
38.1 IP
57 H
19 BB
1.98 WHIP
8.92 ERA

BRM
07-31-2006, 12:15 PM
Im not concerned about what the Reds gave up in either of these deals, I am concerned about the return in the 2nd deal doing more harm than good.

I've received a couple of emails this morning from some friends expressing this very concern.

westofyou
07-31-2006, 12:16 PM
I hadn't researched his salary and contract yet, but remembered seeing that he has a healthy sum due him and figured that factored in the return, which you just confirmed. Honestly, that makes him a pretty expensive swingman, so maybe renting him is indeed in view.
Last year was his first Arb year IIRC, he has a 3.5 million dollar contract.

And his own I hate Kyle T Shirt

http://www.cafepress.com/byto.61268912

And people questioning the move to sign him

http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2006/6/26/203852/625


The second mistake was holding on to Kyle Lohse. The question that is posed by Twins fans is what exactly he has done for him to stay with the Twins. Lohse may have done very good in the second half, but it did not mean he had to stay especially with Francisco Liriano ready to burst into the major league scene. Lohse has had lot of chances to pitch to his potential, but it has not worked out. His performance and his attitude left a lot to be desired. Ryan should have cut the cord by either trading him for nothing or releasing him. There was no way the general manager could have expected Lohse to keep this up when he has saw Lohse fail year after year in his Twins forgettable tenure. I know the ballclub did not want Liriano to be rushed or be in a position to fail, but the fans probably feel he can't be worse than Lohse. Lohse did not have a great season and now he lost his role in the rotation for good. It is one thing for the Twins to try to make do with a limited payroll, but it is another to make mistakes that has cost this team wins with the signing of Rondell White and holding on to Kyle Lohse.

He should fit in pretty well around here.

Let's give him a nickname..... I nominate "Cannon Fodder"

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 12:16 PM
The Reds don't have a true long relief guy right now. Could he be the long man and maybe the Reds are still trying to bring in a Redman or someone like that?

TRF
07-31-2006, 12:16 PM
how's your "I hate Arroyo" bumper sticker holding up?

Let's get something straight. Johnny never hated getting Arroyo. Like myself he thought the Reds should have gotten more. And recent moves show Wayne K is real good at overpaying.

WMP is having a pretty decent year despite an injury that cost him almost 2 months. I think he gets a chance to put it all together especially if the trade rumors about Coco Crisp are true.

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 12:17 PM
Lohse makes $3.95M this year (according to ESPN), anyone know how long his contract is?

Born: October 4, 1978 (27 years old)

Does this make Shackleford go back to AAA? Watson's already been sent packing.

LaRue is still here, I thought he was going to be traded before the 4 o'clock deadline. Wonder what SS he'll go for.

RANDY IN INDY
07-31-2006, 12:18 PM
Lohse makes $3.95M this year, anyone know how long his contract is?

Born: October 4, 1978 (27 years old)

Does this make Shackleford go back to AAA? Watson's already been sent packing.

LaRue is still here, I thought he was going to be traded before the 4 o'clock deadline. Wonder what SS he'll go for.

Izturis, I hope.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 12:20 PM
how's your "I hate Arroyo" bumper sticker holding up?

Bronson tore it off my car when his K/9 returned to his career rate.

You think Lohse will do the same?

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 12:21 PM
I can't wait for Wayne to tell us about the market for pitchers with ERAs over 7.

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 12:22 PM
To me the interesting part is how Lohse is being planned on being used, as a starter or reliever.

westofyou
07-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Lohse makes $3.95M this year (according to ESPN), anyone know how long his contract is?

Born: October 4, 1978 (27 years old)

Does this make Shackleford go back to AAA? Watson's already been sent packing.

LaRue is still here, I thought he was going to be traded before the 4 o'clock deadline. Wonder what SS he'll go for.
According to Will Carroll

The Pirates appear ready to make some minor deals, though sources tell me that Jack Wilson all but demanded to be traded over the weekend.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 12:23 PM
Last year was his first Arb year IIRC, he has a 3.5 million dollar contract.

And his own I hate Kyle T Shirt

http://www.cafepress.com/byto.61268912

And people questioning the move to sign him

http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2006/6/26/203852/625





He should fit in pretty well around here.

Let's give him a nickname..... I nominate "Cannon Fodder"

I'm assuming Krivsky does not have one of the t's hanging in his closet? :evil: Or, at least he will have to get rid of it now. Of course, now that he's with the Reds, we can throw out "change of scenery," "realize his potential," "Wayne must see something or he wouldn't have traded for him," etc. and so forth ;)

wheels
07-31-2006, 12:24 PM
Don't think for a minute that Lohse will be used out of the pen.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 12:25 PM
I wonder if Terry Ryan was laughing on the phone.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 12:25 PM
According to Will Carroll

The Pirates appear ready to make some minor deals, though sources tell me that Jack Wilson all but demanded to be traded over the weekend.I think the current situation at SS for the Reds is the only thing that could ever make me think that I might like a trade for Jack Wilson. At least its true that he can field. Any comments I made earlier about Clayton's D were based on a misinformed opinion.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 12:27 PM
I wonder if Terry Ryan was laughing on the phone.
Considering that dealing Lohse for an A-baller proves his detractors point, I doubt it.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 12:30 PM
WMP is having a pretty decent year despite an injury that cost him almost 2 months. I think he gets a chance to put it all together especially if the trade rumors about Coco Crisp are true.

True, but considering how Bronson has pitched it's a pretty difficult argument to make to say we shoul dhave gotten *more* than him for Wily Mo. When did Wily Mo suddenly morph into Ted Williams?

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 12:31 PM
The Pirates appear ready to make some minor deals, though sources tell me that Jack Wilson all but demanded to be traded over the weekend.

Wilson can't hit, but at least is the bona fide great defender Krivsky claimed we were getting in Clayton (retch).

It would be hilarious if Krivsky actively went out and traded for three guys who can't manage a .300 on-base percentage between them and play the same position in less than three months.

And by "hilarious," I mean, kind of pathetic.

westofyou
07-31-2006, 12:31 PM
It would be hilarious if Krivsky actively went out and traded for three guys who can't manage a .300 on-base percentage between them and play the same position in less than three months.

Everybody funny... now you funny too.

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 12:32 PM
To me the interesting part is how Lohse is being planned on being used, as a starter or reliever.
I think this says alot. Also, the longer a coresponding roster moves goes, the better the chances that Wayne isn't done would be, I would think.

If Lohse is going to be in the rotation, we're done for the day. If he's in the pen, I think we're still shopping.

Also, if a coresponding roster move is announced relatively quickly then I think he's done but if not, there's still a chance for more.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 12:32 PM
Bronson tore it off my car when his K/9 returned to his career rate.

7.9 K/9 in July. A month where he has "sucked." 7.00 K/9 for the season.

If only all of our pitchers could return to such a rate.

BRM
07-31-2006, 12:33 PM
LaRue is still here, I thought he was going to be traded before the 4 o'clock deadline. Wonder what SS he'll go for.

If Larue brings a SS, what happens to Castro/Clayton. Would the Reds carry all three on the roster?

Tommyjohn25
07-31-2006, 12:34 PM
Don't know if it's worth reading in to, but the headline on the Reds official website says "Reds bolster PEN with 2 arms".

flyer85
07-31-2006, 12:34 PM
If Larue brings a SS, what happens to Castro/Clayton. Does it matter? No they can't keep all three.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 12:35 PM
Don't know if it's worth reading in to, but the headline on the Reds official website says "Reds bolster PEN with 2 arms".

I'm pretty sure Lohse will go to the pen, and I hope that means that there is another trade brewing that will net us a starter later today. Redman, most likely.

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 12:36 PM
If Larue brings a SS, what happens to Castro/Clayton. Would the Reds carry all three on the roster?

If I'm in charge, I first banish Clayton to the land of wind and ghosts. (Thank you, Mr. Sparkle)

Then I instruct Castro that he is not to arrive at the ballpark until an hour and a half after the first pitch, in order to ensure he is only used as a defensive replacement.

Then I forge Encarnacion's birth certificate to make him 37.

Sorted.

M2
07-31-2006, 12:36 PM
FWIW, Lohse has been pretty effective this year as a reliever.

25.1 IP, 22 K, 6 BB

I know there are sample size issues abound there. But I could think of worse middle relief options right now.

Now trade Majewski for a starter.

Too bad Ward was the price for Lohse. He was one of my favorite pitching prospects in the system.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 12:37 PM
There is a press conference at 4:30 today. We will probably find out then how they plan to use Lohse.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 12:37 PM
Majewski to KC for Redman?

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 12:37 PM
Majewski to KC for Redman.
Done deal, or spec?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2006, 12:38 PM
speculating. Sorry.

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 12:38 PM
Don't know if it's worth reading in to, but the headline on the Reds official website says "Reds bolster PEN with 2 arms".

That's real encouraging!

flyer85
07-31-2006, 12:39 PM
Majewski to KC for Redman.They need to plug the SS hole from outside since they aren't inclined to turn it over to BP (which leads me to believe the Reds question his ability to play SS on an everyday basis).

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 12:39 PM
That's real encouraging!
Very encouraging. If Lohse is going to be used in the bullpen and Wayne is still shopping for a starter, I can deal with that.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 12:40 PM
If the Reds want a player from KC, I suggest Matt Stairs.

wheels
07-31-2006, 12:40 PM
Too bad Ward was the price for Lohse. He was one of my favorite pitching prospects in the system.

Yeah...Me too.

wheels
07-31-2006, 12:41 PM
Now...If Wayne really wants to make me crazy, he'll go and trade Travis Wood for Mark Redman.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 12:43 PM
Majewski to KC for Redman?


I sure hope not.

We will then, in effect, have traded Kearns/Lopez/Wagner for Bill Bray, Brandon Watson, and Mark Redman. Putrid. I'd rather keep Majewski and hope those who feel he's been "unlucky" thus far are right.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 12:43 PM
Yeah...Me too.

Me three.

Glad someone else is thinking that dealing Majewski for a starter with the abundance of relievers we have is the way to go.

M2
07-31-2006, 12:44 PM
Majewski to KC for Redman?

Given the price the Reds paid for Majewski, I'd hope Krisky could do a lot better than Redman, otherwise his arm's going to be exhausted from wiping egg off his face.

Blimpie
07-31-2006, 12:44 PM
Everybody funny... now you funny too.I heard that song on my radio not ten minutes ago...Wierd-O-Rama.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 12:45 PM
Given the price the Reds paid for Majewski, I'd hope Krisky could do a lot better than Redman, otherwise his arm's going to be exhausted from wiping egg off his face.

If Redman is the target, then I'd hope that we could get a good prospect thrown into the deal along with Redman for Majewski.

Otherwise, yeah, you're right if it's a straight up 1-1 deal, then Majewski should land us a better SP.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 12:47 PM
If Redman is the target, then I'd hope that we could get a good prospect thrown into the deal along with Redman for Majewski.

Otherwise, yeah, you're right if it's a straight up 1-1 deal, then Majewski should land us a better SP.

I need a throw-up bucket or an air sickness bag. The idea of supplementing a season in which we've suffered through the likes of Mike Burns, Chris Hammond, Dave Weathers, Rick White, Brandon Claussen, Joe Mays, and Dave Williams with Kyle Lohse and Mark Redman is unsettling.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 12:50 PM
If Redman is the target, then I'd hope that we could get a good prospect thrown into the deal along with Redman for Majewski.

Otherwise, yeah, you're right if it's a straight up 1-1 deal, then Majewski should land us a better SP.
Especially with the bullpen market the way I hear it is....:confused:

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 12:50 PM
Is there REALLY a starter on the market right now that would be worth our while?

traderumor
07-31-2006, 12:54 PM
7.9 K/9 in July. A month where he has "sucked." 7.00 K/9 for the season.

If only all of our pitchers could return to such a rate.Bronson has been zapped by the big inning twice and then lost wins due to no run support and the bullpen blowing it, but really has still been pitching overall very well. His luck really stinks right now, plus he better check his focus that let those big innings get away from him to the Braves and Astros.

Ok, back to evaluating Lohse.

reds44
07-31-2006, 12:55 PM
2.84 ERA in 19 IP out of the bullpen is nice. Wayne bought low on this one.

I think it is a good risk even if he is used as a SP.

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 12:56 PM
2.84 ERA in 19 IP out of the bullpen is nice.

I don't hate this move at all.
If he's going to be used out of the bullpen, I agree that it's a good move.

smith288
07-31-2006, 01:00 PM
If Majewski can end his run of bad luck, I think I can sufficiently say I like his deals thus far.

Lohse better be lights out in the bullpen and not touch the mound in any 1st inning looking at his stats as a starter.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 01:02 PM
7.9 K/9 in July. A month where he has "sucked." 7.00 K/9 for the season.

If only all of our pitchers could return to such a rate.

At the time of the trade, I stated that if Arroyo could return to his career rate, he'd be a good pickup. I doubted that he could, but he did. I'm not disappointed.

Lohse's career K/9 is 5.56. He's been better this season at 6.50, but I'm guessing he'll return to his career norm, too, unless he continues to pitch out of the bullpen.

And if it's Krivsky's intention to use Lohse out of the bullpen, and the Reds acquired him for an A-ball pitcher, it begs the question "why overpay for bullpen arms?"

M2
07-31-2006, 01:04 PM
Lohse better be lights out in the bullpen and not touch the mound in any 1st inning looking at his stats as a starter.

This deal certainly take a hideous turn if Lohse gets put into the rotation.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 01:13 PM
When I was a kid, I'd take all the toys I didn't want anymore and disassemble them and then Frankenstein new toys from the discrete parts.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 01:19 PM
When I was a kid, I'd take all the toys I didn't want anymore and disassemble them and then Frankenstein new toys from the discrete parts.

So you were Syd on Toy Story? :dunno:

wheels
07-31-2006, 01:20 PM
Is there REALLY a starter on the market right now that would be worth our while?

Yup.

Jason Schmidt and Brandon Webb.

Problem is the Reds don't have to chips for a deal like that.

They should have just stood pat, otherwise they're just flushing prospects down the toilet.

NJReds
07-31-2006, 01:21 PM
I was fearing opening Redszone and seeing a thread proclaiming that Lohse was a Red. That's just because I don't think he improves our team.

Then I see we gave up one of our better prospects for a guy who got dumped from the starting rotation this year...:confused:

wheels
07-31-2006, 01:23 PM
Flush!

Krusty
07-31-2006, 01:24 PM
This deal isn't bad if the following three things were done:

1. Minnesota threw some cash in the deal to offset the contract.

2. The Reds use him as a reliever.

3. It allows the Reds to package a few relievers for a starter.

Wayne is just warming up. I expect the slobber-knocker to come between 3 and 4 pm.

Show the love Wayne K.......Claussen and Majeski to the Giants for RHP Jason Schimdt.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 01:25 PM
I just have a bad feeling about this. I really feel that Zach Ward is going to be a productive major league pitcher. If I'm off on that, fine, but it just kills me that the Reds traded away a draft pick that was actually developing well in our system for a player that the Twins have been trying to give away since late May.

DoogMinAmo
07-31-2006, 01:25 PM
Is there REALLY a starter on the market right now that would be worth our while?

I would think the Reds need a righty power bat more than a starting pitcher. Claussen is more than good enough for the 5th starter position. I am not worried about the starters anymore, get the offense back up to form, drop Clayton and Larue, and the team seems prime for a run.

Krusty
07-31-2006, 01:26 PM
I just have a bad feeling about this. I really feel that Zach Ward is going to be a productive major league pitcher. If I'm off on that, fine, but it just kills me that the Reds traded away a draft pick that was actually developing well in our system for a player that the Twins have been trying to give away since late May.

Heck, I never heard of the kid till today.

M2
07-31-2006, 01:26 PM
Yup.

Jason Schmidt and Brandon Webb.

Problem is the Reds don't have to chips for a deal like that.

I can't imagine Webb's available. The team is a game-and-a-half out of the wild card, Webb's not a free agent until after 2008 and he's the only quality starter the club has got.

I could see San Francisco punting because Schmidt's going to be a free agent and the club is 51-54.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 01:28 PM
Show the love Wayne K.......Claussen and Majeski to the Giants for RHP Jason Schimdt.

Why would the Giants make that deal?

M2
07-31-2006, 01:32 PM
Why would the Giants make that deal?

Because Majic makes people do crazy things.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 01:33 PM
I could see Schmidt going to Arizona to join Webb

Hubba
07-31-2006, 01:34 PM
never mind

Krusty
07-31-2006, 01:34 PM
Why would the Giants make that deal?

Schimdt will be a free agent at the end of the season. They would get a starting pitcher and reliever for the 2007 season. It's better than two draft picks.

deltachi8
07-31-2006, 01:35 PM
Show the love Wayne K.......Claussen and Majeski to the Giants for RHP Jason Schimdt.

Would you throw in say Votto to make that work?

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2006, 01:35 PM
Schimdt will be a free agent at the end of the season. They would get a starting pitcher and reliever for the 2007 season. It's better than two draft picks.

I would rather have two draft picks than Claussen and Majewski. The Giants could do much better than those two for Schmidt.

M2
07-31-2006, 01:41 PM
Would you throw in say Votto to make that work?

I would.

Puffy
07-31-2006, 01:42 PM
Show the love Wayne K.......Claussen and Majeski to the Giants for RHP Jason Schimdt.

That would be a horrible trade for San Fran. Pathetic return actually.

alloverjr
07-31-2006, 01:43 PM
Does anyone know if this is what the 4:30/5:00 press conference is about? I'd have to assume it is - and talk about the Cormier trade,

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 01:43 PM
I would.

So would I. I'd also like a unicorn, and a chocolate moat around my house. I figure that's about as likely as Schmidt being traded to the Reds for that kind of package.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 01:44 PM
Does anyone know if this is what the 4:30/5:00 press conference is about? I'd have to assume it is - and talk about the Cormier trade,it will be about whatever they've done today.

Krusty
07-31-2006, 01:46 PM
That would be a horrible trade for San Fran. Pathetic return actually.

Let Special K spice it up. But Schimdt should be on his radar screen if he is available.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 01:48 PM
Special K


If he's not careful, I'm going to start calling him Special Bus.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 01:48 PM
I just have a bad feeling about this. I really feel that Zach Ward is going to be a productive major league pitcher. If I'm off on that, fine, but it just kills me that the Reds traded away a draft pick that was actually developing well in our system for a player that the Twins have been trying to give away since late May.

Zach Ward seemed like he would be a good fit for GABP.
I guess the best we can hope for is Lohse to pitch good in the NL and that Wards success was because he was to old for the league he was in.

:thumbup:

BRM
07-31-2006, 01:48 PM
If he's not careful, I'm going to start calling him Special Bus.

:laugh:

Puffy
07-31-2006, 01:49 PM
Let Special K spice it up. But Schimdt should be on his radar screen if he is available.

I agree - but the Reds don't have the trading chips to land a Schmidt. They used them on Majic and Bray. Unless you are willing to add Bruce or Bailey, otherwise you have no shot at Schmidt, IMO.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 01:50 PM
Let Special K spice it up. But Schimdt should be on his radar screen if he is available.

Krivsky seems to me (to this point) to be the type of person that enjoys shopping at Value City vs shoppnig at Ethan Allen.

i.e.- I can't see a player like Schmidt coming to Cincy.

SteelSD
07-31-2006, 01:58 PM
I was fearing opening Redszone and seeing a thread proclaiming that Lohse was a Red. That's just because I don't think he improves our team.

Then I see we gave up one of our better prospects for a guy who got dumped from the starting rotation this year...:confused:

That's a tougher pill to swallow considering the Twins were completely unwilling to put him back into a rotation that includes Carlos Silva and Scott Baker. They even tried out Boof Bonser for a spell. The back end of their rotation is in the same shape as the Reds. And yet, they'd rather ship off Lohse than keep him around during a heated playoff chase.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 01:59 PM
Krivsky seems to me (to this point) to be the type of person that enjoys shopping at Value City vs shoppnig at Ethan Allen.

i.e.- I can't see a player like Schmidt coming to Cincy.You have to be able to pay the prices in the more expensive store. Our trading chips are limited, unfortunately.

REDREAD
07-31-2006, 02:07 PM
This deal certainly take a hideous turn if Lohse gets put into the rotation.

But I think that's what Lohse is headed towards. Claussen has iffy health, and when they traded Gernamo, they no longer had any bodies left to man that #5 slot.

If I had to bet, I'd say that Lohse is starting.

The pen is actually in pretty good shape now. Everyone other than Majewski has been pitching pretty well of late, even Weathers. Plus, we just added Comier..

Puffy
07-31-2006, 02:10 PM
Dan (Minnesota)
Rob, do you see the Twins making any more trades besides the Lohse trade to the Reds? What would you do if you were Terry Ryan?

ROB NEYER
If I were Terry Ryan I probably would make sure that my scouting director was the happiest scouting director around. And I would thank my lucky stars that Kyle Lohse won't be around to blow any more games.

redsmetz
07-31-2006, 02:10 PM
I found this comment on the Twins discussion board, which I just shared on Down On The Farm


Regarding this one - yes, we got a lot for Kyle. Of course, it is only potential though. But we have to keep in mind, regardless of how many of us feel about Kyle, he is a 27 year old pitcher with 50+ Major League wins and a sub 5 ERA. For someone looking for a 5th starter, that is fairly apealing.

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 02:11 PM
From Marc's blog

"Lohse apparently will be in bullpen

Just got off a conference call with Kyle Lohse. I asked him if Wayne had said he would be moving into the rotation here or staying in the bullpen. His response:

"As of right now, I believe I’m going to stay in the role that I’m at. Ultimately, it’s up to him. I think they’ve got some good guys there, and we’ll play it by ear. I’m ready to do whatever it takes to help the team out.""

Puffy
07-31-2006, 02:12 PM
From Marc's blog

"Lohse apparently will be in bullpen

Just got off a conference call with Kyle Lohse. I asked him if Wayne had said he would be moving into the rotation here or staying in the bullpen. His response:

"As of right now, I believe I知 going to stay in the role that I知 at. Ultimately, it痴 up to him. I think they致e got some good guys there, and we値l play it by ear. I知 ready to do whatever it takes to help the team out.""

Well, thats good news.

If true I'd say that Redman ends the day in Red as well.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 02:14 PM
If the Reds deal for Redman(who got lit up last night), there really wasn't a reason to acquire Lohse.

Red Leader
07-31-2006, 02:15 PM
I wonder if Wayne's sitting in his office listening to "Eye of the Tiger" right now?

LoganBuck
07-31-2006, 02:15 PM
From Marc's blog

"Lohse apparently will be in bullpen

Just got off a conference call with Kyle Lohse. I asked him if Wayne had said he would be moving into the rotation here or staying in the bullpen. His response:

"As of right now, I believe I知 going to stay in the role that I知 at. Ultimately, it痴 up to him. I think they致e got some good guys there, and we値l play it by ear. I知 ready to do whatever it takes to help the team out.""

The plot thickens...............

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 02:15 PM
If he's staying in the bullpen, then there would almost have to be another deal involving a bullpen arm wouldn't there?

And by the way, my opinion of this deal changes greatly if indeed Lohse is going to the bullpen.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:16 PM
If the Reds deal for Redman(who got lit up last night), there really wasn't a reason to acquire Lohse.

Unless Lohse is replacing one of the guy's we're trading for Redman.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 02:17 PM
If the Reds deal for Redman(who got lit up last night), there really wasn't a reason to acquire Lohse.

It will probably be something like Votto for Redman.
Redman then will come to the Reds and get lit up like Joe Mays and Dave Williams.

:evil:

flyer85
07-31-2006, 02:20 PM
Unless Lohse is replacing one of the guy's we're trading for Redman.with Moore now in charge of the Royals they would want prospects. I could see the Reds sending someone to the Royals but I think Matt Stairs would be a much more logical target. Redman is just more of what the Reds already have(5.40 ERA and 1.50WHIP), Brandon Claussen can provide that.

princeton
07-31-2006, 02:22 PM
"Lohse apparently will be in bullpen "

yes there's another deal. the market is very high for pre-arbitration relievers, and now we have some to deal

maybe we wagged the dog.

GoReds
07-31-2006, 02:22 PM
The Lohse deal would make *some* sense if Krivsky is also going after someone like Schmidt. The best case is, he lands Schmidt and uses Lohse as a spot starter/long reliever if necessary. If the deal for Schmidt or someone of his caliber falls through, then Lohse is the fallback.

Personally, I think WK grouped Lohse and Redman in a similar group and pulled the trigger on the guy that cost him the least. I think Redman's out of the picture now.

reds44
07-31-2006, 02:22 PM
From Marc's blog

"Lohse apparently will be in bullpen

Just got off a conference call with Kyle Lohse. I asked him if Wayne had said he would be moving into the rotation here or staying in the bullpen. His response:

"As of right now, I believe I知 going to stay in the role that I知 at. Ultimately, it痴 up to him. I think they致e got some good guys there, and we値l play it by ear. I知 ready to do whatever it takes to help the team out.""
I agree with moving him to the pen. He was pitching well there as of late so why change it?

We need to trade for a SP and/or SS in the next 3 1/2 hours though.

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 02:23 PM
What's hilarious is reading some other teams' forums right now. Wayne is certainly popular: everyone wants to trade with him.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:24 PM
with Moore now in charge of the Royals they would want prospects. I could see the Reds sending someone to the Royals but I think Matt Stairs would be a much more logical target. Redman is just more of what the Reds already have(5.40 ERA and 1.50WHIP), Brandon Claussen can provide that.

I dunno. For one, I don't think Stairs adds enough "power" to be that right handed power bat the Reds are looking for. Secondly, the assumption being made is that Claussen is and will continue to be completely healthy. if Claussen falters, whom do we have waiting in the wings? Kyle Lohse? <shudder> I still think this team needs another starter more than it needs another bat. I'm not sold on Claussen being effective for the remainder of the season, though stanger things have happened.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 02:25 PM
What's hilarious is reading some other teams' forums right now. Wayne is certainly popular: everyone wants to trade with him.

Both Phillies fans and Twins fans seemed to be happy.

:help:

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:25 PM
What's hilarious is reading some other teams' forums right now. Wayne is certainly popular: everyone wants to trade with him.

I don't think either of today's deals were bad. I'm not sure how much they'll help, but he certainly wasn't fleeced.

The only deal where I really think Krivsky's struck out on so far is the Kearns/Lopez fiasco. The rest have been pretty insignificant.

Az Red
07-31-2006, 02:26 PM
The Lohse deal would make *some* sense if Krivsky is also going after someone like Schmidt. The best case is, he lands Schmidt and uses Lohse as a spot starter/long reliever if necessary. If the deal for Schmidt or someone of his caliber falls through, then Lohse is the fallback.

Personally, I think WK grouped Lohse and Redman in a similar group and pulled the trigger on the guy that cost him the least. I think Redman's out of the picture now.


Good thoughts. Now, if he can pull Schmidt out of SF, you could feel the momentum swing in the Central.

reds44
07-31-2006, 02:26 PM
What's hilarious is reading some other teams' forums right now. Wayne is certainly popular: everyone wants to trade with him.
Who cares?

Wayne has made this team from a cellar dweller to a team competiting for the NL Central crown.

I don't give a crap what other fans (or quite frankly Reds fans) say about him.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/G-FORCE7/sports-1.jpg

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 02:27 PM
This is Rob Neyer from ESPN's trade deadline chat:


Dan (Minnesota)
Rob, do you see the Twins making any more trades besides the Lohse trade to the Reds? What would you do if you were Terry Ryan?

ROB NEYER
If I were Terry Ryan I probably would make sure that my scouting director was the happiest scouting director around. And I would thank my lucky stars that Kyle Lohse won't be around to blow any more games.

RANDY IN INDY
07-31-2006, 02:27 PM
I dunno. For one, I don't think Stairs adds enough "power" to be that right handed power bat the Reds are looking for. Secondly, the assumption being made is that Claussen is and will continue to be completely healthy. if Claussen falters, whom do we have waiting in the wings? Kyle Lohse? <shudder> I still think this team needs another starter more than it needs another bat. I'm not sold on Claussen being effective for the remainder of the season, though stanger things have happened.

He hasn't been what I would call "effective" since the Reds acquired him. Looks to me like he expects to get hit hard every start. No confidence or presence on the mound. He needs to pitch in a very big ballpark with a lot of good outfielders.

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 02:27 PM
The only deal where I really think Krivsky's struck out on so far is the Kearns/Lopez fiasco. The rest have been pretty insignificant.

I don't know--we've certainly relieved the Twins of two of their worst players, while sending live bodies the other way.

I actually think Ward was an interesting prospect and might have been a MLB starting pitcher down the road. Lohse is pretty much effluvium.

Reds4Life
07-31-2006, 02:29 PM
Well, now that Kyle is going to be out of the pen I don't hate the move as much.

Tick tock, tick tock, more deals on the way?

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 02:30 PM
Well, now that Kyle is going to be out of the pen I don't hate the move as much.

Tick tock, tick tock, more deals on the way?
I halfway like the Lohse deal now that he's going to be in the bullpen.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:32 PM
I actually think Ward was an interesting prospect and might have been a MLB starting pitcher down the road. Lohse is pretty much effluvium.

I had never even heard of Ward prior to this deal. granted, I don't keep up with the farm system as much as others on here, but I generally know who the better prospects are, and Ward wasn't even on my radar screen. He might project well, but he's a Low-A pitcher. It's really hard for me to be upset at the loss of an A ball pitcher who doesn't project to be lights out when the return is an MLB arm capable of helping out in the bullpen.

Puffy
07-31-2006, 02:32 PM
This is Rob Neyer from ESPN's trade deadline chat:

Yeah, I posted that on Page 9 - man, I get no respect!!

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:33 PM
He hasn't been what I would call "effective" since the Reds acquired him. Looks to me like he expects to get hit hard every start. No confidence or presence on the mound. He needs to pitch in a very big ballpark with a lot of good outfielders.

No he hasn't. That's why handing him the keys to the fifth starter spot during a playoff chase with no fallback option concerns me.

M2
07-31-2006, 02:35 PM
yes there's another deal. the market is very high for pre-arbitration relievers, and now we have some to deal

maybe we wagged the dog.

Outside of what the Reds paid, I don't see where the market's been all that high.

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2006, 02:36 PM
What's hilarious is reading some other teams' forums right now. Wayne is certainly popular: everyone wants to trade with him.

Why wouldn't you? It's like trading baseball cards with the only kid on the block who doesn't read "Beckett."

This trade stinks on ice. Hell, I don't even care about giving up Zach Ward at this point (and I should, because he's exactly the type of pitching prospect the Reds need to be hanging on to) -- what exactly does Kyle Lohse add to this team that wasn't already there yesterday afternoon?

He's a right-handed LOOGY -- big market for those, eh? This trade reeks of panic to get something done and Krivsky falling back to players that he knows instead of looking objectively for better players to add to the team. This is yet another situation where no deal was prferrable to this deal.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:38 PM
He's a right-handed LOOGY -- big market for those, eh? This trade reeks of panic to get something done and Krivsky falling back to players that he knows instead of looking objectively for better players to add to the team. This is yet another situation where no deal was prferrable to this deal.

I agree assuming there are no further trades coming. However, this trade reeks to me as the set-up for something else. Too many relievers, and too many cooks in the bullpen stew right now. Something's gotta give.

REDREAD
07-31-2006, 02:38 PM
yes there's another deal. the market is very high for pre-arbitration relievers, and now we have some to deal
.

Has anyone other than the Reds traded for a pre-arb reliever? I don't think so (but I could be wrong). Therefore, it doesn't mean that other teams put such a premium on youth.

There's no way Wayne is shopping Bray or Maj though. He's not going to reflip them after declaring they were worth the high price paid.

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 02:39 PM
It's really hard for me to be upset at the loss of an A ball pitcher who doesn't project to be lights out when the return is an MLB arm capable of helping out in the bullpen.

Implicit in that statement is your belief that Lohse is an MLB-quality arm who can help out in the bullpen.

On that, I'm afraid we differ. 19 IP of solid relief in largely mop-up roles does not, to me, erase the fact that Lohse resembled Charlie Brown on the hill for the vast majority of the season.

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 02:40 PM
Both Phillies fans and Twins fans seemed to be happy.

:help:
We were pretty happy when we traded Randa last year ... did either of the guys we got for him contribute?

Nothing is more underrated around here than average major league talent. We're so busy looking for the next great thing, we forget that sometimes just average is all you need.

Krivsky has added average major league talent without touching Bailey, Bruce, Votto or Wood. Those are the legitimate prospects in the organization. He has bolstered the team for the stretch run and hasn't cashed in a legitimate prospect yet.

So other fans feel good today. Great. But if Lohse comes here and wins three games down the stretch for us and we make the playoffs, while this A-baller never reaches the majors (still the most likely outcome), who won the trade?

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:40 PM
Implicit in that statement is your belief that Lohse is an MLB-quality arm who can help out in the bullpen.

On that, I'm afraid we differ. 19 IP of solid relief in largely mop-up roles does not, to me, erase the fact that Lohse resembled Charlie Brown on the hill for the vast majority of the season.

...and Ward was, by all accounts, a decent but not exceptional prospect.

Hence my inability to generate any strong feelings for this deal. Perhaps that's where you and I differ.

princeton
07-31-2006, 02:41 PM
Outside of what the Reds paid, I don't see where the market's been all that high.

quiet down, now. loose lips sink ships. WayneK's trying to pitch a perfect game. Elmer Fudd can fly but only until he realizes that he's flying.

dsmith421
07-31-2006, 02:42 PM
Hence my inability to generate any strong feelings for this deal. Perhaps that's where you and I differ.

My strong feelings have more to do with Lohse's suckitude than Ward's potential, to be honest.

I don't like going out of the way to acquire bad baseball players, I certainly don't like paying for them.

Puffy
07-31-2006, 02:44 PM
My strong feelings have more to do with Lohse's suckitude than Ward's potential, to be honest.

I don't like going out of the way to acquire bad baseball players, I certainly don't like paying for them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the problem with acquiring slop like Dave Williams, Womack, Mays and now Lohse is not what you give up, its that you actually then feel the need to play them. We know how the first three turned out, and I have a pretty good inkling how the fourth will turn out.

Fire, meet gasoline.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 02:47 PM
My strong feelings have more to do with Lohse's suckitude than Ward's potential, to be honest.

I don't like going out of the way to acquire bad baseball players, I certainly don't like paying for them.

Lifetime ERA of 3.00 as a reliever, and in a small sample size this year he's performed equally well. I'm willing to take a shot at him, particularly if the Reds have another trade on the horizon (I suspect they do.) I admit this trade makes less sense if there's nothing new coming.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 02:48 PM
Ergo, the 19,543rd acronym to be used on RedsZone:

The ROOGY.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2006, 02:50 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the problem with acquiring slop like Dave Williams, Womack, Mays and now Lohse is not what you give up, its that you actually then feel the need to play them. We know how the first three turned out, and I have a pretty good inkling how the fourth will turn out.

Fire, meet gasoline.

Don't forget Royce Clayton.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 02:50 PM
We were pretty happy when we traded Randa last year ... did either of the guys we got for him contribute?

Nothing is more underrated around here than average major league talent. We're so busy looking for the next great thing, we forget that sometimes just average is all you need.

Krivsky has added average major league talent without touching Bailey, Bruce, Votto or Wood. Those are the legitimate prospects in the organization. He has bolstered the team for the stretch run and hasn't cashed in a legitimate prospect yet.

So other fans feel good today. Great. But if Lohse comes here and wins three games down the stretch for us and we make the playoffs, while this A-baller never reaches the majors (still the most likely outcome), who won the trade?

The Reds recieved Germano and Chick for Randa. The Reds flipped Chick for Gaurdado and Germano for Cormier. They must have contributed something if you recieve a closer and a reliever with an ERA under 2.00 for them.

Then you can also as the question: If Lohse comes here and stinks it up like Joe Mays and Dave Williams, who won the trade? Seems like it would be the Twins since they dumped Lohse salary and recieved a young pitcher in return.

I really hope Lohse pitches well and doesnt turn out like Joe Mays or Dave Williams.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 02:51 PM
Too many relievers, and too many cooks in the bullpen stew right now. Something's gotta give.

I disagree. I think Wayne likes to operate with a great deal of asymmetry and tortuousness. Every move he's made except for Pena/Arroyo has only fomented roster/defensive/lineup confusion. He's not the least bit interested in snipping off the loose ends or smoothing the fabric.

It's unique, if not effective.

BTW, this is a great characteristic to have (the love of asymmetry/half-constructedness) if you're an artist, say, but is it good for someone like a GM? It's an interesting question to me, all of a sudden. And I'm not being glib or sarcastic.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 02:54 PM
I disagree. I think Wayne likes to operate with a great deal of asymmetry and tortuousness. Every move he's made except for Pena/Arroyo has only fomented roster/defensive/lineup confusion. He's not the least bit interested in snipping off the loose ends or smoothing the fabric.

It's unique, if not effective.mismatched parts is what this roster is all about. 3 catchers, acquire GB pitchers and pair them up with inadequate left side of the infield defense. A sledgehammer will make the square pegs fit in the round holes.

Az Red
07-31-2006, 02:57 PM
The Reds recieved Germano and Chick for Randa. The Reds flipped Chick for Gaurdado and Germano for Cormier. They must have contributed something if you recieve a closer and a reliever with an ERA under 2.00 for them.

Then you can also as the question: If Lohse comes here and stinks it up like Joe Mays and Dave Williams, who won the trade? Seems like it would be the Twins since they dumped Lohse salary and recieved a young pitcher in return.

I really hope Lohse pitches well and doesnt turn out like Joe Mays or Dave Williams.


There is also the "change of scenery" effect. Lohse may re-discover himself. I know, grasping at straws...

M2
07-31-2006, 02:59 PM
quiet down, now. loose lips sink ships. WayneK's trying to pitch a perfect game. Elmer Fudd can fly but only until he realizes that he's flying.

Good post

IslandRed
07-31-2006, 03:00 PM
Outside of what the Reds paid, I don't see where the market's been all that high.

Dunno... certainly, there's been no exact parallel to The Trade. Contracts, service time, etc. complicate the comparisons. But I thought the Brewers-Rangers deal and the Braves-Dodgers deal were both ones where the best talent went in the opposite direction of the relief pitcher.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 03:00 PM
There is also the "change of scenery" effect. Lohse may re-discover himself. I know, grasping at straws...

Im hoping Lohse can turn it around in the NL.
Lohse wont be helping the Reds right now because he was shipped to the minors for 3 weeks.

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 03:01 PM
The Reds recieved Germano and Chick for Randa. The Reds flipped Chick for Gaurdado and Germano for Cormier. They must have contributed something if you recieve a closer and a reliever with an ERA under 2.00 for them.

Then you can also as the question: If Lohse comes here and stinks it up like Joe Mays and Dave Williams, who won the trade? Seems like it would be the Twins since they dumped Lohse salary and recieved a young pitcher in return.

I really hope Lohse pitches well and doesnt turn out like Joe Mays or Dave Williams.
They only win the trade if the young pitcher makes the big leagues and helps. That's still a very big IF. It's actually much more likely that he's never as good as Kyle Lohse is right now.

Chick and Germano haven't done a thing in the majors and probably never will. They were moveable parts for the Guardado and Cormier deals, nothing more. Their only value is in being a throw-in to a deal when the real value for the other team is just shedding the salary. That's it.

Forget it ... We should have just kept all our prospects, Wily Mo, Kearns and Lopez and followed the DanO model. That was fun.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 03:03 PM
I disagree. I think Wayne likes to operate with a great deal of asymmetry and tortuousness. Every move he's made except for Pena/Arroyo has only fomented roster/defensive/lineup confusion. He's not the least bit interested in snipping off the loose ends or smoothing the fabric.

It's unique, if not effective.

BTW, this is a great characteristic to have (the love of asymmetry/half-constructedness) if you're an artist, say, but is it good for someone like a GM? It's an interesting question to me, all of a sudden. And I'm not being glib or sarcastic.

It's a crapshoot, I'd say. Veering from the recipe, throwing some weird stuff into the stew and seeing how it turns out. Could be exactly as bad or as good as random allows. But I'm not entirely convinced that's his MO yet. I need at least one full season and one full off-season to get a feel for the way he works and to know that he doesn't have some bigger (very specific, very smooth-edged) plan in mind.

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 03:03 PM
mismatched parts is what this roster is all about. 3 catchers, acquire GB pitchers and pair them up with inadequate left side of the infield defense. A sledgehammer will make the square pegs fit in the round holes.
It's miserable being in the pennant race, isn't it? Boy, I wish we were 10 games out so we could dump some of these useless, scrappy veterans for prospects.

IslandRed
07-31-2006, 03:05 PM
I disagree. I think Wayne likes to operate with a great deal of asymmetry and tortuousness. Every move he's made except for Pena/Arroyo has only fomented roster/defensive/lineup confusion. He's not the least bit interested in snipping off the loose ends or smoothing the fabric.

It's unique, if not effective.

BTW, this is a great characteristic to have (the love of asymmetry/half-constructedness) if you're an artist, say, but is it good for someone like a GM? It's an interesting question to me, all of a sudden. And I'm not being glib or sarcastic.

Good post. Way back in March or April, I posted to the effect that Krivsky was probably going to make any swap he could that raised the talent level of the organization and the roster complications could be dealt with later. In the midst of that, all of a sudden we're in a pennant race, and he needed to simultaneously add some pieces and tighten up the roster. The whole month of July has been an awkward shifting of gears. It probably doesn't help that Castellini is probably in his office five times a day ("Whaddya got? I sure would like to make a run this year...").

deltachi8
07-31-2006, 03:06 PM
It's miserable being in the pennant race, isn't it? Boy, I wish we were 10 games out so we could dump some of these useless, scrappy veterans for prospects.

I think its taking us all a little getting use to.

Im not sure I like all of what Wayne has done thus far today - but I like the effort, and the hope he has brought to Reds fans who have been starved for it.

M2
07-31-2006, 03:07 PM
The Reds recieved Germano and Chick for Randa. The Reds flipped Chick for Gaurdado and Germano for Cormier.

I give Krivsky a lot of credit for cutting bait on those two. In essense he turned Joe Randa into two lefty relievers. We'll see if they have much gas in the tank, but, unlike Chick and Germano, it's at least an interesting proposition.


I disagree. I think Wayne likes to operate with a great deal of asymmetry and tortuousness. Every move he's made except for Pena/Arroyo has only fomented roster/defensive/lineup confusion. He's not the least bit interested in snipping off the loose ends or smoothing the fabric.

It's unique, if not effective.

BTW, this is a great characteristic to have (the love of asymmetry/half-constructedness) if you're an artist, say, but is it good for someone like a GM? It's an interesting question to me, all of a sudden. And I'm not being glib or sarcastic.

I'd say that being able to move (and think) in a non-linear fashion is a boon for a GM. Though Krivsky's only got two hours left to wormhole his way into the starting pitcher he needs for 2006.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 03:08 PM
It's a crapshoot, I'd say. Veering from the recipe, throwing some weird stuff into the stew and seeing how it turns out. Could be exactly as bad or as good as random allows. But I'm not entirely convinced that's his MO yet. I need at least one full season and one full off-season to get a feel for the way he works and know that he doesn't have some bigger (very specific, very smooth-edged) plan in mind.

I don't mean to say that some larger plan isn't cooking, and I'm not saying that Wayne is necessarily throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks, either.

But what I am wondering (perhaps pointlessly) is whether Wayne doesn't think that roster discomfort/misalignment isn't, on some level, an end in itself? Keeping a certain degree of jaggedness to the arrangement in order to, I don't know, buck the conventions that have fostered the crippling inertia of the franchise. I don't know. It's whack.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 03:11 PM
I don't mean to say that some larger plan isn't cooking, and I'm not saying that Wayne is necessarily throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks, either.

But what I am wondering (perhaps pointlessly) is whether Wayne doesn't think that roster discomfort/misalignment isn't, on some level, an end in itself? Keeping a certain degree of jaggedness to the arrangement in order to, I don't know, buck the conventions that have fostered the crippling inertia of the franchise. I don't know. It's whack.

Dunno. Is there any really good in-depth analysis of his time with the Twins anywhere? Don't know how much it could tell us since a GM is usually working behind the scenes, but I'd be interested to know all of the little moves that went down while he was there and how they played into the bigger picture.

i'm definitely considering the possibility that he has management ADD.

flyer85
07-31-2006, 03:13 PM
FCB, I had always just assumed that WK was working to fixing the overall roster and that it takes time to do that and you can't make it happen all at once. I really had not considered your theory as a possibility because overall it doesn't make sense to an analytical mind (like matching GB pitchers with below average infield defense). I suppose your theory is possible, I guess it may depend on what does/doesn't happen in the next few hours.

BRM
07-31-2006, 03:16 PM
They only win the trade if the young pitcher makes the big leagues and helps. That's still a very big IF. It's actually much more likely that he's never as good as Kyle Lohse is right now.


Twins fans already view the trade as a win for them. Simply jettisoning Lohse from the roster made it a good trade for them.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 03:17 PM
They only win the trade if the young pitcher makes the big leagues and helps. That's still a very big IF. It's actually much more likely that he's never as good as Kyle Lohse is right now.

Chick and Germano haven't done a thing in the majors and probably never will. They were moveable parts for the Guardado and Cormier deals, nothing more. Their only value is in being a throw-in to a deal when the real value for the other team is just shedding the salary. That's it.

Forget it ... We should have just kept all our prospects, Wily Mo, Kearns and Lopez and followed the DanO model. That was fun.

So the Chick for Guardado and Germano for Cormier deals were just salary dumps for the other teams?
Then wouldnt the Lohse for Ward be a salary dump for the Twins?

Also I never said anything about not trading prospects.
I have no problem trading prospects if you get something good in return.
Trading for Lohse is a low risk/high reward type deal for the Reds.

registerthis
07-31-2006, 03:18 PM
Twins fans already view the trade as a win for them. Simply jettisoning Lohse from the roster made it a good trade for them.

It doesn't mean it's a loss for us.

All this "who wins?" talk about trades is mis-placed. Sometimes, both teams win. Sometimes, both teams lose. There's nothing that says one team has to come out clearly in front or clearly at a loss on every deal.

RANDY IN INDY
07-31-2006, 03:19 PM
Lohse wont be helping the Reds for alteast 3 weeks since he will be in the minors.

Did I miss something?

BRM
07-31-2006, 03:20 PM
It doesn't mean it's a loss for us.

All this "who wins?" talk about trades is mis-placed. Sometimes, both teams win. Sometimes, both teams lose. There's nothing that says one team has to come out clearly in front or clearly at a loss on every deal.

I agree. If Lohse is properly used out of the bullpen, he can be of use to the Reds. I was only stating that Twins were very happy to see Kyle go. He had worn out his welcome in Minnesota.

ochre
07-31-2006, 03:21 PM
The state of the organization (rosters from top to bottom) is one of the biggest reasons I didn't/don't feel this is the year to make a drastic attempt at going all the way. If there is dissonance in Wayne's mind regarding where this team's structure is, I'd have been much more comfortable with him making a more calculated, developed approach at winning it all next year, or even '08. Trying to reorganize to his comfort level and compete for a title at the same time might be too much to ask. My fear is that he's being driven to this by outside (read: ownership) influences. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I understand what people are saying in regards to 'you don't choose the year, the year chooses you', but at what ongoing cost?

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 03:24 PM
Well, twelve pages into this thread and best i can determine is that I have decided this is a head-scratcher. So my new theory is that Krivsky's goal is to make so many moves that he actually confuses us into submission. I am hoping it serves the same purpose for the Reds' opponents.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 03:34 PM
Did I miss something?

*edit* I read the post by Marc wrong, he was saying Lohse was demoted earlier in the year.

Danny Serafini
07-31-2006, 03:37 PM
He was sent down for three weeks earlier in the year, that's what he's saying.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 03:37 PM
Twins fans already view the trade as a win for them. Simply jettisoning Lohse from the roster made it a good trade for them.A team's fans not liking a player? Sure glad that kind of thing doesn't go on around here!

BRM
07-31-2006, 03:38 PM
A team's fans not liking a player? Sure glad that kind of thing doesn't go on around here!

:laugh:

CTA513
07-31-2006, 03:40 PM
He was sent down for three weeks earlier in the year, that's what he's saying.

My bad, I read it wrong and thought it said he was being sent to the minors.

:all_cohol

Az Red
07-31-2006, 03:41 PM
Well, twelve pages into this thread and best i can determine is that I have decided this is a head-scratcher. So my new theory is that Krivsky's goal is to make so many moves that he actually confuses us into submission. I am hoping it serves the same purpose for the Reds' opponents.


Speaking of opponents, what is the feeling on the Card's board? I'm sure the fans are sweating the Central Division now.

Big Klu
07-31-2006, 04:11 PM
But I think that's what Lohse is headed towards. Claussen has iffy health, and when they traded Gernamo, they no longer had any bodies left to man that #5 slot.

If I had to bet, I'd say that Lohse is starting.


There is another....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8a/Yodaclassic.jpg/250px-Yodaclassic.jpg

Cyclone792
07-31-2006, 04:14 PM
Well, not a big fan of Lohse, and I'm not a big fan of the deal, but this is what we've got with Lohse ...


Starter Reliever

Innings 873.0 34.0
ERA 4.91 4.50
DIPS ERA 4.67 4.29

K/9 5.47 7.79
BB/9 2.86 2.86
HR/9 1.27 1.32
K/BB 1.91 2.73

His bullpen sample size of only 34 innings is very small to tell us much, but from what there is, he'll strike out a few more guys when coming out of the pen, but everything else pretty much remains the same. If I had a choice, I'd preferably have Lohse come out of the pen as a K/9 of nearly 8 isn't too bad for a reliever, and hopefully Lancaster is right by reporting that we plan on using him out of the pen for now.

What could be a big problem, however, is Lohse's HR/9 rating. The Metrodome has played slightly in favor of pitchers in terms of home runs (overall it's pretty neutral) so the move to GABP could spike Lohse's HR/9 rate higher than his 1.27 career mark.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 04:18 PM
Speaking of opponents, what is the feeling on the Card's board? I'm sure the fans are sweating the Central Division now.


Kyle Lohse strikes fear in their hearts, huh? :laugh:


Seriously, though, I don't mind this trade in and of itself. But it makes me angrier about the Kearns/Lopez deal.

Lohse is going to the bullpen. He was acquired for an A-ball pitcher.

Cormier was acquired for a AAA starter who probably could have been successful out of the bullpen. Still, not a huge loss.

Eddie Guardado was acquired for a AA pitcher.

So why did the Reds feel they had to trade major league talent for Bray and Majewski? And then snap up the microphone and declare how hard it was to find bullpen help, and how they simply *had* to overpay?

Mutaman
07-31-2006, 04:26 PM
Forget it ... We should have just kept all our prospects, Wily Mo, Kearns and Lopez and followed the DanO model. That was fun.

Is it my imagination or are people here actually being more critical of Wayne then they were of the Banana man and his crew?

osuceltic
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
Is it my imagination or are people here actually being more critical of Wayne then they were of the Banana man and his crew?
Sure seems that way. It's like I've entered Bizarro World.

traderumor
07-31-2006, 04:43 PM
Kyle Lohse strikes fear in their hearts, huh? :laugh:


Seriously, though, I don't mind this trade in and of itself. But it makes me angrier about the Kearns/Lopez deal.

Lohse is going to the bullpen. He was acquired for an A-ball pitcher.

Cormier was acquired for a AAA starter who probably could have been successful out of the bullpen. Still, not a huge loss.

Eddie Guardado was acquired for a AA pitcher.

So why did the Reds feel they had to trade major league talent for Bray and Majewski? And then snap up the microphone and declare how hard it was to find bullpen help, and how they simply *had* to overpay?


The Reds didn't say they overpaid, detractors of the deal said they overpaid. Wayne K flattered the popular opinions of Kearns and Lopez by his words for damage control. Of course, unlike Bronson, the performance of those dealt for has not vindicated the deal. Who knows, maybe it won't since GMs are not the popes of baseball and have no claims to infallibility.

M2
07-31-2006, 04:49 PM
Say the Reds don't trade for another starter and Claussen suffers a setback? Who do the Reds stick in the rotation in that case?

I figure the options boil down to Lohse and Homer Bailey.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2006, 04:50 PM
I guess we will see, I view this trade no differently than Cormier. Giving up very little for a roll of the dice and I do not feel uncomfortable saying Lohse is likely to have as much or more success than Rheal Cormier.


How many games has Ward had a hand in winning for the Reds this year? I'll take it. Better than Mays/Claussen/Williams.

I agree 100% with both of these. Look, Ward was a "decent" prospect in "A" ball!!! What are the odds that he even makes it to the show?!?

If the Reds use Lohse out of the BP, I like the trade. Couple him with Cormier, our BP is MUCH better than it was yesterday.

Also, it sounds like WK is trying to trade Milton for a serviceable rental pitcher...that helps the team even more. We would get out from under his contract and improve the team too?!? Great job, Wayne!

D-Man
07-31-2006, 04:51 PM
I don't mean to say that some larger plan isn't cooking, and I'm not saying that Wayne is necessarily throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks, either.

But what I am wondering (perhaps pointlessly) is whether Wayne doesn't think that roster discomfort/misalignment isn't, on some level, an end in itself? Keeping a certain degree of jaggedness to the arrangement in order to, I don't know, buck the conventions that have fostered the crippling inertia of the franchise. I don't know. It's whack.

In describing this behavior, I would think of it more as OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) than artistic assymetry.

Take for instance Billy Beane transforming the A's from a beer-league softball team (c. 1999) to a pitching and defense club (c. 2001). Both Beane and Krivsky identified a weakness and made several moves to address the problem in a big way. All of Beane's moves shored up the pitching and defense in that time frame (Izzy, Dye, Damon, etc.) much like Krivsky completely transformed the BP in ~a month. I think both GMs are OK with periods of transition, unlike O'Brien.

I think this behavior is either genius or madness, if not both.

By the way, I am really liking the bullpen now if Lohse is in it. Lefty closer (Guardado), power setup righty (Lohse), power GB setup righty (Coffey), live arm lefty (Bray), rubber armed middle guy (Maj). All but Guardado are on the right side of 30. This sure as heck beats the forgettable Weathers-led geriatric bullpen of 2005 and early 2006.

KronoRed
07-31-2006, 04:51 PM
Ugh.

I don't know if Ward will ever be much of anything but I would have preferred we held on to him in hope then trading for this guy, I'd like Claussen better.

This is another IMO former Twin that must be a fav of the Wayno.

Aronchis
07-31-2006, 04:57 PM
Another poor decision by Krivsky. Lohse is dung. Dung is dung, no reason to deny it.

Obviously Krivsky feels he can "weed" out prospects he doesn't like to other teams for "marginal" returns. Pretty funny.

At least get something with some upside man.

KronoRed
07-31-2006, 05:13 PM
Something else to think about..the Twins..IN THE RACE..were desperate to dump this guy

hmm ;)

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2006, 05:19 PM
Give the guy a chance. The team doesn't know if Claussen will be ready to make his start Saturday or not and this is insurance. Kyle can be a 5th starter long reliever and over his last 10 appearances he has posted a 2.84 ERA (19 Innings) and his K's to BB's are 15/2. Ward was struggling there a little bit and we are playing for a playoff birth. You got to give a little to get a little. If they stood pat and didn't make a move then we would all be upset. They make two pretty decent deals and have set themselves up to push for the playoffs. My guess to make room for Lohse would be either Standridge or Shackelford going to AAA. Krivsky has really really altered the bullpen and hopefully we can say that our pitching staff is able to carry us as much as our offense does.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2006, 05:32 PM
The Reds didn't say they overpaid, detractors of the deal said they overpaid.

In the press conference following the deal, I seem to remember Wayne saying, "yes, we probably overpaid." I can't find a transcript, though.

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2006, 05:39 PM
Anybody hear the press conference to hear how they plan to use Lohse.

redsmetz
07-31-2006, 07:03 PM
I wrote this over on The Peanut Gallery while the board was down. Have to go get dinner for the fandamily now.


I'm sort of in a "wait and see" mode. I've liked what WK's done thus far, we're winning, but I had hoped for something a little more spectacular. But I'm glad to see he didn't give away the store and I think we're seeing that the market on pitching has gotten very very tight.

I noted that on the Twins board once poster acknowledged that it seemed they got a lot for Lohse, but noted that minor leaguers don't always panned out and more tellingly, in my opinion, they noted that Lohse was around 27 and already had 50 wins under his belt. I think they were hoping that this didn't become one of those "how'd we let him get away."

This is going to sound strange, but I'm anxious for next season. Certainly I hope we make the playoffs, but I want to see what Krivsky can do with a full off season, how players develop under his regime, etc. Anyone have a crystal ball or time machine?