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penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 12:02 PM
Just a question...what do people think our team would have been like for the next couple years if we decided to give up on this year and focus on the next 2? I mean thinking about it we could have waited until the deadline and shipped Lopez and Kearns and had some major league starting pitching talent (combining them with Germano and Wagner respectively). Could have had Ervin Santana for them if you packaged them this late in the deadline. Then you ship off a Coffey type for a starter for the future. Hatteberg to the Angels as well....with some significant return for him. (possible SS/2B for the future). Without the pressure of putting together a winner this year, how would this team look right now? Becoming desperate wasn't our best option in my opinion. 2008 could have been our season (WS berth) if we would have been patient at the deadline and really worked the phone. Thoughts....

Reds1
07-31-2006, 12:09 PM
I'm glad we are playing for this year. For once it's not about next season. We still have homer, EE, and picked up Bray some young talent. I think so far we are maintaining. Next season BP to SS and we can get a 2B or play Freel, RA, etc.

kaldaniels
07-31-2006, 12:10 PM
I think you underestimate the price for a young, valuable starting pitcher.

Tommyjohn25
07-31-2006, 12:13 PM
Reds fans as a whole, myself included, are sick and tired of hearing the words "wait till next year" or "Oh in 2-3 years, this team will be set" I'm sick of it, I don't want to hear it again, and I feel we owe Krivsky our gratitude for making "next year" an unacceptable answer.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 12:16 PM
Just a question...what do people think our team would have been like for the next couple years if we decided to give up on this year and focus on the next 2? I mean thinking about it we could have waited until the deadline and shipped Lopez and Kearns and had some major league starting pitching talent (combining them with Germano and Wagner respectively). Could have had Ervin Santana for them if you packaged them this late in the deadline. Then you ship off a Coffey type for a starter for the future. Hatteberg to the Angels as well....with some significant return for him. (possible SS/2B for the future). Without the pressure of putting together a winner this year, how would this team look right now? Becoming desperate wasn't our best option in my opinion. 2008 could have been our season (WS berth) if we would have been patient at the deadline and really worked the phone. Thoughts....

Oh boy, another rebuilding plan and another few years of "it will get better, I promise". And this would certinally doom us to another few years of stagnant attendence and the revenue that does/doesn't create.

I understand you point. But I don't think "waiting for the perfect trade" is always the right option. You should not go around wildly trading just for the fun of it, but waiting for that slightly better deal that's around the corner isn't a good approach either.

kaldaniels
07-31-2006, 12:20 PM
You know, with the current roster we could be say 45-60 right now and the majority of posters would think that is what is to be expected from this team this year. My point is, when we have a chance we need to go for it all. I certainly hope it is not the case but next year we could very well be a .450 team again. You never know when it is going to be your year...just drive up I-71 to find that out. 06' Reds...go for it all!!!

penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 12:20 PM
i hate playing for the playoffs....imo we arent good enough yet...you cant expect to come in after two gms like jim bowden and dan obrien and try to turn it around in 1 year.. its not possible..we may make the playoffs but i hate playing for that, thats what i hate if you get to october have a chance to win it all.....thats the way i feel

unless you go out and get soriano to play right and zito to be in our rotation

kaldaniels
07-31-2006, 12:21 PM
i hate playing for the playoffs....imo we arent good enough yet...you cant expect to come in after two gms like jim bowden and dan obrien and try to turn it around in 1 year.. its not possible..we may make the playoffs but i hate playing for that, thats what i hate if you get to october have a chance to win it all.....thats the way i feel

To each his own. I have no response.

Tommyjohn25
07-31-2006, 12:26 PM
i hate playing for the playoffs....imo we arent good enough yet...you cant expect to come in after two gms like jim bowden and dan obrien and try to turn it around in 1 year.. its not possible..we may make the playoffs but i hate playing for that, thats what i hate if you get to october have a chance to win it all.....thats the way i feel

unless you go out and get soriano to play right and zito to be in our rotation


Huh?

penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 12:31 PM
i would give up this year in order for a chance at a ws...we cant win the ws this year unless we aquire a sp and a bat..

thats why i say i hate playing for the playoffs.....if we get there great but we will get pounded

kaldaniels
07-31-2006, 12:34 PM
With a good 1-2 SP anything can happen in the playoffs. With Harang and Arroyo we have a shot.

penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 12:35 PM
fair enough kal...i guess this year with krivsky i see desperation and i dont like it. hopefully we get there and see what happens! i really wasnt questioning i like the way it went i actually was kind of just trying to have people throw out a starting 9 or a pitching staff that could have been possible if we went the other way

RedsManRick
07-31-2006, 12:40 PM
If there's anything I've learned over the last few years it's these 2 things -- perhaps different sides of the same coin:

1.) You never waste a shot to make the playoffs. There is no time like the present. Despite what all the pundits will say about not having a "playoff roster" and all of that, every team in the playoffs is a WS contender. Period. The revenues of a few home playoff games and the subsequent attendence bump the next year easily pays the cost of the acquired talent.

2.) No team is guaranteed success, regardless of roster composition. That is, you shouldn't wait until your team is perfect to try and make your run, because there is no perfect roster. Injuries, slumps, bad luck can all make the house of cards topple. At some point you have stop rebuilding and simply build. The Pirates and Royals are both stuck in the situation of never having quite enough talent to even get lucky for a year which they can leverage in to future success (like the Reds this year, hopefully). If you wait until the stars align and everything falls in place, you could be waiting for a future which never arrives.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 12:41 PM
you cant expect to come in after two gms like jim bowden and dan obrien and try to turn it around in 1 year..

Frankly, I think we are smack dab in the midst of a "turnaround". Do you really think DanO and the team he built would be in 2nd place, leading the WC and fighting for the division? Going from dead last to 2nd is a very nice turnaround IMO.

We can fight all we want about how much further ahead we'd be if Narron wasn't here, EE was playing, "the trade" wasn't made etc. But the fact remains we are in an infinatley better position now than we were last year. That, IMO, is a good thing.


we may make the playoffs but i hate playing for that, HUH? Isn't that the point of the excersize?

penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 12:43 PM
kind of taking the quote out of context there ey? redsman i did enjoy your post..it makes a ton of sense to me

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 12:51 PM
kind of taking the quote out of context there ey?

No, with 4 different threads hopping I didn't want to copy/paste from all the posts you've made to communicate your complete thought.

But I undestand your point. Don't be so rash in chasing a chance now, that you hurt the team for the next six years. That sometimes it's better to take 2nd place this year so you can win 1st for the next five. I got that.

But as Redsmanrick pointed out, if you wait to build "the perfect team" you'll never get there. Heck, nobody could afford to pay "the perfect team". Not even Gorgie, I don't think.

RedsManRick
07-31-2006, 01:14 PM
There certainly is a middle ground. You don't trade away Scott Kazmir because you think Victor Zambrano might be a useful #5 starter on your .500 squad. But at the same time, you don't sit tight on a AA reliever who could get you a real major leaguer now because he might become a useful major league reliever in 2 or 3 years.

The one thing I will give Krivksy is that he's protecting the truly valuable assets (Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Wood, etc.) and using the rest to win now. Sometimes those mid-level prospects (Trevor Hoffman, BJ Ryan) turn out be great, but most often they turn out to be nothing but career minor leaguers. The Braves have continually shown that to get the most out of your minor leaguers you need to BOTH use them and trade them for something useful. You've only got 25 roster spots and you might as well fill them with the best talent you can rather than pin your hopes that someday you can fill that spot well with a guy currently in high A ball.

Unassisted
07-31-2006, 01:19 PM
Just a question...what do people think our team would have been like for the next couple years if we decided to give up on this year and focus on the next 2? How is that different from what was happening under the Dan O'Brien regime and the final days of Bowden? I wish I could find that FO quote from a couple of years ago about the team having to bottom out before it became a contender in a couple of seasons. IIRC, it was John Allen who said it.

I don't recall too many of us liking that approach.

penantboundreds
07-31-2006, 01:24 PM
because we had terrible minor leaguers we rebuilt with any rebuilding actually being done....aurillia ross hatteberg weathers lopez wagner kearns

we had a lot to deal in order to rebuild there is a difference

RedsManRick
07-31-2006, 01:45 PM
Peanut, all that said, I think trading for Ervin Santana rather than Bray & Majewski would've been better for both this year and the future. I have to believe that the Angels simply weren't interested in Kearns, b/c a deal like that just made way too much sense not to do were it truly and option.

Kearns
Lopez
Wagner

for

Santana
Cabrera

Cabrera is expensive, but that money would've had to been spent on Lopez/Kearns next year. It would have vastly improved our defense and rotation, with less of an impact offensively than the trade that did happen. Anyways, water under the bridge I suppose.

MrCinatit
07-31-2006, 01:45 PM
Perhaps I am looking at things wrong, but it seems some of the moves have been done with both the present and the future in mind.
Both bray and Majewski could be here for a few years, as will Phillips and Ross. I am not certain about Lohsee nor Cormier. I am sure Eddie is up for FA - but IMO, we really did not give up a whole lot for Cormier nor Eddie.

kaldaniels
07-31-2006, 02:35 PM
Perhaps I am looking at things wrong, but it seems some of the moves have been done with both the present and the future in mind.
Both bray and Majewski could be here for a few years, as will Phillips and Ross. I am not certain about Lohsee nor Cormier. I am sure Eddie is up for FA - but IMO, we really did not give up a whole lot for Cormier nor Eddie.

As I noted earlier, we gave up Joe Randa.