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Highlifeman21
07-31-2006, 03:53 PM
Yes, the bullpen is better.

It's a bit disappointing that we didn't land another starter, but I wouldn't call it a total letdown of a day.


At least we didn't get Mark Redman. That's gotta be a positive, right?

I must say I'm disappointed that we didn't dump Royce Clayton for anything with a pulse.

Here's to the rest of the season and hopefully a playoff berth. :beerme:

CougarQuest
07-31-2006, 03:53 PM
The more I thought about it, it might be easier to trade LaRue after today.

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 03:55 PM
Actually, maybe these two deals turn out OK and they really solidify the BP. I'm not that angry about either one. Just kind of "eh"?

I wasn't necessarily needing THAT big a big deal. Just once though I'd like to hear the Reds pulled off a deal and say "Really? We got <insert name> and only had to give up <insert name>!?! Dang! I can't believe we got <insert name>!

Not just, "eh".

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Bummer. Well, at least our bullpen's better. Isn't it. I hope. <sigh>

On the bright side, I guess we didn't get to see what kind of scrappy old dreck Bailey and Bruce would have garnered us. :bang:

flyer85
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
You don't think Cormier and Lohse put the over the top.

The best thing they could have done today is get rid of Royce Clayton.

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 04:35 PM
Yes, the bullpen is better.

It's a bit disappointing that we didn't land another starter, but I wouldn't call it a total letdown of a day.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 04:36 PM
I agree. Wayne plays it safe. :nono:

"You don't win friends with fence-sitting...
You don't win friends with fence-sitting..."

LexingtonRedsFan
07-31-2006, 04:37 PM
Im surprised that one of the catchers wasnt traded....you have to wonder if the 3 of them can co-exist the remainder of the season. I guess we can hope that a wild card chase will keep them all content.

reds44
07-31-2006, 04:38 PM
I liked the 2 trades made today but we needed another starter.

If Claussen doesn't pitch well this team is screwed in the 5th starter role. The only insurance we have is Loshe (yikes) and then maybe Homer (I hope not).

Hopefully Phillips starts playing SS, but I doubt it. Start Juan over Clayton.

CTA513
07-31-2006, 04:39 PM
The Reds can always bring Joe Mays back up if Claussen doesnt work out.

:p:

WVRedsFan
07-31-2006, 04:39 PM
Yeah, I agree.

I guess they couldn't find anyone to take Milton or Claussen. They feel Rich is too valuable and other teams thought our catchers too awful. We got two releivers for two prospects.

I was hoping for a new starter or a shortstop. But maybe it's not over yet. that 4:00 news conference still on?

Reds4Life
07-31-2006, 04:39 PM
No SS, no bats and no 5th starter. Yup, it's been a let down. My biggest fear right now is that Claussen tanks as the 5th man and they stick newbie Kyle into the rotation.

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 04:39 PM
Guess I just have higher standards than you guys. :laugh:

REDREAD
07-31-2006, 06:12 PM
Well, I expected nothing, so I was glad to get Cormier. He'll be useful.

Lohse, I'm not mad about but not exactly excited either. Hopefully Narron uses him in a way that he can contribute.

Although I guess adding two more arms pushes Maj to the back of the pen.

PuffyPig
07-31-2006, 06:24 PM
We improved more than our competition. That's whats really important.

The lack of deals tells me there were many buyers and few sellers.

Soriano didn't get moved.What's up with that? As a FA to be, it's unbelievable that Bowden didn't cash in that chip.

VR
07-31-2006, 06:27 PM
The board crashed for a while with news of Kyle Lohse and Rheal Cormier. Think what a Jason Schmidt acquisition would have done!

thanks boss for getting it up and running so fast :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 06:30 PM
We improved more than our competition. That's whats really important.

The lack of deals tells me there were many buyers and few sellers.

Soriano didn't get moved.What's up with that? As a FA to be, it's unbelievable that Bowden didn't cash in that chip.

Yeah, but if the Reds really want to make a splash now, they've got to promote Bailey.

If not, then they will have made all these other moves for nothing. As currently constituted, this team is not going to the playoffs

OldXOhio
07-31-2006, 06:32 PM
The best thing they could have done today is get rid of Royce Clayton.

I believe that day is coming - just not a mere 2 weeks after the guy was acquired.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 06:39 PM
I have mixed emotions.

I like the Carmier move. Get rid of a meh arm for a good to decent one.

Loshe? Not so much. I don't care about trading Day, Loshe I'm not a huge fan of. However, if used well I think he can be effective. But that's my problem, Narron has not shown a skill with using the bullpen well (or sometimes at all).

I was hoping for a 5th starter to deal with Clausen/Belisle/Wilson/Balfour/Kronored and solidfy the position, but who's really out there that is any real upgrade over what we have?

My outside chance trade was they traded Clayton, a catcher and RA for a stud SS. I don't know who that was supposed to be, so it's really just dreaming on my part.

Overall it was a decent to good day, I suppose. No horrable mistakes but nothing too earth shattering either.

They are betting that the starting pitching and offence produce at the same rate, and that the "improved" bullpen makes the difference. We shall see if their bet pays off.

WVRedsFan
07-31-2006, 07:09 PM
Yeah, but if the Reds really want to make a splash now, they've got to promote Bailey.

If not, then they will have made all these other moves for nothing. As currently constituted, this team is not going to the playoffs

that's certainly not a popular view, but one I think might happen. Before you flame me too badly, this team only has the opposition as its friend. Of the teams in the WC hunt, most of them are worse off than we are.

And even if we make it (and I really, really, really hope we do), it might be a quick series, especially if we play the Mets. This team has two reliable starters when you need at least four. I'll give EZ the benefit of the doubt, but in Milton and Claussen we have a stick of dynamite after five or six innings. Krivsky has addressed this and the bullpen is much improved, but we have to learn to let Milton and Claussen do their five or six inning thing and then head for the bullpen. Our defense is far beyond suspect in both the infield and outfield. It all adds up to an iffy future this year.

I have faith in Krivsky to work on this until February and debut a big contender in 2007, but as for this year, I'm having my doubts.

oregonred
07-31-2006, 07:14 PM
that's certainly not a popular view, but one I think might happen. Before you flame me too badly, this team only has the opposition as its friend. Of the teams in the WC hunt, most of them are worse off than we are.


True enough, but no one sent me a Sympathy Card when the Reds tallied 96 wins in 1999 and had to sit home...

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 07:14 PM
Krivsky has addressed this and the bullpen is much improved, but we have to learn to let Milton and Claussen do their five or six inning thing and then head for the bullpen.

WV, for all the wailing and gnashing of teath over EE/RA at 3B, I think this is what may sink us in the end. I don't like Narron's overuse of BA and AH. And he doesn't seem to have a good idea for when to pull the starter, match ups, when a guy just doesn't have it, etc.

His poor use of the pitching staff was covered up earlier because the bullpen sucked eggs. Now that the bullpen is improving he doesn't have that cover anymore.

WVRedsFan
07-31-2006, 07:25 PM
WV, for all the wailing and gnashing of teath over EE/RA at 3B, I think this is what may sink us in the end. I don't like Narron's overuse of BA and AH. And he doesn't seem to have a good idea for when to pull the starter, match ups, when a guy just doesn't have it, etc.

His poor use of the pitching staff was covered up earlier because the bullpen sucked eggs. Now that the bullpen is improving he doesn't have that cover anymore.

Oh, I agree. Whatever is said about Narron, everyone has to agree that he has no clue on when to change pitchers or who to pitch in various situations. It was well documented that even though Chris Hammond was getting lit up time and time again, he'd send him out first to give up the lead. It happened time after time. Finally, Hammond pitched a few good innings and that's all Jerry needed. Once again, out came Hammonds to get shelled. Finally Krivsky must have wakened and gave Jerry the bad news on Hammond.

And he does what he wants because that threat of losing his job is no longer there. I keep wondering if the loss of Vern Ruhle effects his pitching decisions. If so, we need to get a permanent pitching coach here asap.. And I don't mean Hume either.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 07:35 PM
I have to say this was a garbage day. Nothing has changed. Nothing. For all the yapping about putting money into this team, we got Cormier (nice trade) and Lohse (still wondering what Krivsky's obsession is with horrendous ex-Twins). The Washington debacle was mysteriously sold to us with the "we saved $1.3 million" line, or something to that effect, with the company line "defense and veteran presence". Guardado has worked out so far, but does anyone feel all warm and fuzzy when he comes out for the 9th?

So I think the deadline bust of '06 was due to 2 reasons:

1) Not really any good matches out there.
2) Same old Reds.

I think everyone wants to believe that reason #1 is the only reason why, but no one can discount the second reason. Bob came into Cincy with guns ablaze, but has he really shown any signs of spending money? Not to say that he won't, but I'm still waiting.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 07:54 PM
Bob came into Cincy with guns ablaze, but has he really shown any signs of spending money?

He did allow 9 different players to be DFA'ed. While that's not new spending above and beyond current payroll, it's absorbing the costs and getting no return whatsoever. That counts for something.

And didn't the trades today end up adding to payroll in some amount? I thought they did through the various contract stupulations, how the deals were structured, etc. I could very well be wrong on that account.

KronoRed
07-31-2006, 07:55 PM
The Reds can always bring Joe Mays back up if Claussen doesnt work out.

:p:
The NL central rejoices

MrCinatit
07-31-2006, 08:01 PM
Frankly, there were no deals today which raised my eyebrows. It was a buyer's market this year, and it seemed too many of the sellers were simply teasing.
"Yeah? You want Willis? Huh? Ya want him...PSYCH!"

oregonred
07-31-2006, 08:09 PM
I have to say this was a garbage day. Nothing has changed. Nothing. For all the yapping about putting money into this team, we got Cormier (nice trade) and Lohse (still wondering what Krivsky's obsession is with horrendous ex-Twins). The Washington debacle was mysteriously sold to us with the "we saved $1.3 million" line, or something to that effect, with the company line "defense and veteran presence". Guardado has worked out so far, but does anyone feel all warm and fuzzy when he comes out for the 9th?

So I think the deadline bust of '06 was due to 2 reasons:

1) Not really any good matches out there.
2) Same old Reds.

I think everyone wants to believe that reason #1 is the only reason why, but no one can discount the second reason. Bob came into Cincy with guns ablaze, but has he really shown any signs of spending money? Not to say that he won't, but I'm still waiting.

Money alone wasn't getting you a Willis, Zito or Schmidt. Otherwise they'd be suiting up in the Bronx or Queens tomorrow night instead of with their current teams. Bailey was your starting point to ante up in that game and the Reds weren't taking that bait. I have no doubt Castellini would have ponied up for '06/'07 if WayneK brought him a blockbuster to sign off against.

Net, net is that the Reds have taken on '06 salary with the Lohse/Cormier/Guardado/Castro deals. Another major change from years past is showing no heasitation to DFA'ing several guys owed by the club (Hammond/Womack/Williams)

Castellini has shown me no indication that he isn't ready to win or that he was ready to hold up a deadline deal over $$$...

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 08:33 PM
Money alone wasn't getting you a Willis, Zito or Schmidt. Otherwise they'd be suiting up in the Bronx or Queens tomorrow night instead of with their current teams. Bailey was your starting point to ante up in that game and the Reds weren't taking that bait. I have no doubt Castellini would have ponied up for '06/'07 if WayneK brought him a blockbuster to sign off against.

Net, net is that the Reds have taken on '06 salary with the Lohse/Cormier/Guardado/Castro deals. Another major change from years past is showing no heasitation to DFA'ing several guys owed by the club (Hammond/Womack/Williams)

Castellini has shown me no indication that he isn't ready to win or that he was ready to hold up a deadline deal over $$$...
Come on...money alone could have gotten plenty this weekend.

1) Abreu/Lidle
2) Craig Wilson
3) Roberto Hernandez
4) Greg Maddux
5) Kip Wells (last ditch)

And those are just the names who were traded. But seriously, do you actually think that the acquisitions of Lohse/Castro/Cormier/Guardado were actually showing a "major change"?

Guardado had a lot of money sent with him and, IIRC, it was around break even.

Castro's whole 2006 salary is $1 million.

No problem with Cormier, except for the automatic contract extension to a guy who will be 40 in April of next year and a club option when he's 41. I guess they forgot about Hammond.

Don't get me started on Lohse. Wasted $. Especially when they gave up a good prospect for him. How do you take on any money whatsoever when you trade a guy with potential for a guy with an ERA over 7? My God, sometimes I wish we could trade with Krivsky.

Again, Castellini could have paid for 30 minutes on TV and dumped a bag of money in the toilet, which would be spending more money than the previous regime. But would it have shown us anything?

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 08:37 PM
He did allow 9 different players to be DFA'ed. While that's not new spending above and beyond current payroll, it's absorbing the costs and getting no return whatsoever. That counts for something.

And didn't the trades today end up adding to payroll in some amount? I thought they did through the various contract stupulations, how the deals were structured, etc. I could very well be wrong on that account.
There's a difference btw spending money, spending real money and spending money wisely. If you add $1 or 2 million to the payroll, I'm not really praising Billionaire Bob's freewheeling ways. If you drop $5 million or more, now we're talking. But if you piss away the limited money you have (see: Milton, Eric) it tends to hurt you in the long run.

Let me ask you a question...if Wayne asked you if you'd rather have $1 million to spend however you'd like (i.e., draft) and Zach Ward or Kyle Lohse for the rest of the season, what would you say? Take that $ and put it in the bank for a rainy day.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 08:38 PM
I am pretty happy with the day. I feel that we got pretty much what we gave up, give or take, only with the ability to help us now in some proven major league talent -- yes, even in Lohse. My friend who taught me a great deal about the workings of minor league baseball always used to drill into me the motto "There Is No Such Thing as a Pitching Prospect". I don't entirely agree with him (I think this organization should hold onto Bailey as if its life depended on it), but his point -- that proven talent at the major league level automatically has a leg up on unproven potential -- is an important one. All told, put together, these were even enough trades. Not as lopsided as our Washington deal, and not as lopsided as a heck of a lot of the deals that went down today.

As for not getting more...well, I'd like Barry Zito on my team and in my kitchen, and I'm not stupid enough to believe that Krivsky isn't interested in the same. Obviously, the lines were out. Obviously, the Reds were unable to extend theirs far enough. They weren't willing to get rid of enough talent to get it back, and I applaud that. There's a good gap in talent on this team right now. Our baby infielders are probably not enough to command something huge on July 31 (and there were not many huge things available, seems to me), and our big-name players are either too valuable to give up (Dunn) or come with qualifications that teams may not want (Junior). It'd be nice to get something helpful back in return for Royce Clayton. I can't think of any team in baseball that'd be willing to give it to us.

To get something great today, my guess is we would have had to give up too much. Sometimes the best thing to do is something little or nothing at all. A splashy move isn't necessarily a good one. We did what we could for now, the standings haven't changed, and we've got to try to win this team, and win or not saddle up for next year. I expect a lot this offseason when our options will be more open. Everything about this management says to me that they're willing to do it when the options are there. When they're not, they hang tight. Fine with me.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 08:42 PM
Come on...money alone could have gotten plenty this weekend.

1) Abreu/Lidle
2) Craig Wilson
3) Roberto Hernandez
4) Greg Maddux
5) Kip Wells (last ditch)

In my mind those would have been immediate, expensive solutions. I would rather put the money towards better things when there are more available. If somebody on the street gives me five bucks to buy ice cream, but the stand only has vanilla and chocolate and I want strawberry, I'm pocketing the money and getting the best strawberry cone down the street. even if it's one hundred million degrees (which it is) and I want ice cream more than anything in the world and have to walk 15 blocks to get it. The strawberry will be worth it.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 08:43 PM
There's a difference btw spending money, spending real money and spending money wisely. If you add $1 or 2 million to the payroll, I'm not really praising Billionaire Bob's freewheeling ways. If you drop $5 million or more, now we're talking. But if you piss away the limited money you have (see: Milton, Eric) it tends to hurt you in the long run.

Let me ask you a question...if Wayne asked you if you'd rather have $1 million to spend however you'd like (i.e., draft) and Zach Ward or Kyle Lohse for the rest of the season, what would you say? Take that $ and put it in the bank for a rainy day.

So is your issue not spending the money, or how it would be spent? I'm confused, in your first post I got the impression you were saying Bob hasn't spent any money to improve the team. The above post seems like you are saying don't spend it if it's not done wisely.

Maybe I'm just froggy from the trade mania and am just not connecting to what you were trying to communicate.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 08:45 PM
Claussen's completely shot--blown away again in AAA tonight.

So it looks like Lohse grabs the fifth spot by default. But we all knew it was just a matter of time.

Essentially, all the team did today in the "plus" column was find a replacement for Mercker.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 08:47 PM
Maybe I'm just froggy from the trade mania and am just not connecting to what you were trying to communicate.
I think we're all a little groggy here. :D

What I am trying to say is when someone tells me their going to spend money if the team is in it, I expect more than Lohse. So the actual spending of money isn't what I am looking for. He could have dealt for a Milton type guy and it would have met the definition of spending money. But when you say "spend money" in baseball, it means improving the team. Lohse doesn't meet that definition.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2006, 08:47 PM
In my mind those would have been immediate, expensive solutions. I would rather put the money towards better things when there are more available. If somebody on the street gives me five bucks to buy ice cream, but the stand only has vanilla and chocolate and I want strawberry, I'm pocketing the money and getting the best strawberry cone down the street. even if it's one hundred million degrees (which it is) and I want ice cream more than anything in the world and have to walk 15 blocks to get it. The strawberry will be worth it.

My problem with this thinking is that it's an about-face after a "full-steam-ahead" move for bullpen help; Wayne went past the point of no-return and threw away his oars. I don't get it.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 08:49 PM
I think we're all a little groggy here. :D

What I am trying to say is when someone tells me their going to spend money if the team is in it, I expect more than Lohse. So the actual spending of money isn't what I am looking for. He could have dealt for a Milton type guy and it would have met the definition of spending money. But when you say "spend money" in baseball, it means improving the team. Lohse doesn't mean that definition.

I'm with you now. I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue, I tell ya.

I wasn't a big fan of the Loshe deal either. I do think he can be used effectivley but as mentioned previously, I question whether Narron can acomplish this.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 08:51 PM
In my mind those would have been immediate, expensive solutions. I would rather put the money towards better things when there are more available. If somebody on the street gives me five bucks to buy ice cream, but the stand only has vanilla and chocolate and I want strawberry, I'm pocketing the money and getting the best strawberry cone down the street. even if it's one hundred million degrees (which it is) and I want ice cream more than anything in the world and have to walk 15 blocks to get it. The strawberry will be worth it.
Who's to say that there will ever be strawberry? Craig Wilson would have met more needs than Lohse. And if Chacon could have gotten him, I bet Zach Ward would still be with the Reds.

If those guys would have been immediate, expensive solutions, then what is Lohse? An immediate, expensive non-solution? There is absolutely no need for this guy on this team. Zero. The BP was remade with Guardado, Bray and Maj and then 2 more guys get added? Doesn't anyone else think that Krivsky was a little shellshocked? This was overkill. I wonder if Wayne was ever involved in other talks...that would tell me a lot.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 08:53 PM
My problem with this thinking is that it's an about-face after a "full-steam-ahead" move for bullpen help; Wayne went past the point of no-return and threw away his oars. I don't get it.

I still think it's the same thing. i think the bullpen help was what was available. He would have kept rowing if there was more out there. There wasn't.

I will say two things though:
1. He does seem inordinately preoccupied with the bullpen. I'm really not sure what that's about, especially since he's working with a manager who doesn't seem to have grasped the concept of a bullpen yet (maybe he's trying to drill it into him?)
2. To elaborate on one of your points earlier today, he has a weird thing in mind, or nothing at all. Maybe he's trying to showcase them all in hopes that they do well and help him pull in other things -- things he couldn't get right now -- during the offseason. A pretty big risk, considering he hasn't exactly acquired Mariano Rivera and BJ Ryan here, but whatever -- not toally incomprehensible. Or maybe he's thinking of something else, trying to overload the bullpen because he knew he couldn't get another starter. Or something magical. Or nothing at all. I dunno.

Ltlabner
07-31-2006, 08:56 PM
The BP was remade with Guardado, Bray and Maj and then 2 more guys get added? Doesn't anyone else think that Krivsky was a little shellshocked? This was overkill. I wonder if Wayne was ever involved in other talks...that would tell me a lot.

Well, I don't know. Are you still comfortable running Weathers out there? Merker (or is it Hammonds, dang it I aways get those two confused)? Perhaps that was behind bringing in a few more arms. I totally agree that Loshe is just as big of ? as Weathers, but I think The Kriv might be thinking that Weathers is done, and he might get lucky with Loshe. I don't know...,..I doubt it.

You really wonder if Wayne was in other talks or was that just frustration talking? Cause if anything The Kriv can not be accused of non-action. 9 DFA's. Arroya, Ross, Philips, Castro, every day Eddie, "the trade". There were quite a few rumors of the Reds going after this and that player. While rumors are just that, when you hear enough of them there has to be some grain of truth.

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 08:58 PM
Who's to say that there will ever be strawberry? Craig Wilson would have met more needs than Lohse. And if Chacon could have gotten him, I bet Zach Ward would still be with the Reds.

This is the kind of thing we just don't know. Whateve we may have offered for Wilson, if anything at all, might not have been viewed as as good as Chacon. Maybe they were blinded by his flashes of brilliance last year.


If those guys would have been immediate, expensive solutions, then what is Lohse? An immediate, expensive non-solution? There is absolutely no need for this guy on this team. Zero. The BP was remade with Guardado, Bray and Maj and then 2 more guys get added? Doesn't anyone else think that Krivsky was a little shellshocked? This was overkill. I wonder if Wayne was ever involved in other talks...that would tell me a lot.

I will not argue with you that Lohse is not the best solution to our problems. I thought you had been saying that any move would have been better and that i don't necessarily agree with.

I guess I'm just saying that I'm giving the organization a little bit of leeway here, for no other reason than I (like you) don't fully understand these moves, but (unlike you, I think?) I don't see them as horribly damaging, and I think there may be something else going on here...or at the very least, I do trust that this was the best option available to us given what we were willing to dole out.

edabbs44
07-31-2006, 08:59 PM
Well, I don't know. Are you still comfortable running Weathers out there? Merker (or is it Hammonds, dang it I aways get those two confused)? Perhaps that was behind bringing in a few more arms. I totally agree that Loshe is just as big of ? as Weathers, but I think The Kriv might be thinking that Weathers is none, and me might get lucky with Loshe. I don't know...,..I doubt it.

You really wonder if Wayne was in other talks or was that just frustration talking? Cause if anything The Kriv can not be accused of non-action. 9 DFA's. Arroya, Ross, Philips, Castro, every day Eddie, "the trade". There were quite a few rumors of the Reds going after this and that player. While rumors are just that, when you hear enough of them there has to be some grain of truth.
With Maj, Bray, Cormier, Coffey and Guardado, I don't see the need for Weathers to ever see the field in any important situation. You always need an arm to eat some innings when the game is out of reach either way.

corkedbat
07-31-2006, 09:28 PM
No SS, no bats and no 5th starter. Yup, it's been a let down. My biggest fear right now is that Claussen tanks as the 5th man and they stick newbie Kyle into the rotation.I

Would've liked a SS too, but what I don't get is what we need with Clayton or Castro is that we have Rey Olmedo down at AAA. He could hit as well and field with more range than either.

Big Klu
07-31-2006, 09:36 PM
I wasn't necessarily needing THAT big a big deal. Just once though I'd like to hear the Reds pulled off a deal and say "Really? We got <insert name> and only had to give up <insert name>!?! Dang! I can't believe we got <insert name>!

Not just, "eh".

"Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to 1999."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Peabody_sherman.jpg/200px-Peabody_sherman.jpg


"Really? We got Greg Vaughn and Mark Sweeney and only had to give up Reggie Sanders and Damian Jackson!?! Dang! I can't believe we got Greg Vaughn! :D