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buckeyenut
07-31-2006, 08:23 PM
TC,

I had a couple of questions for you coming out of today.

First, what is the line on the Lugo deal? You guys get more than you hoped? Was Lugo really asking for an 8M+ extension? What is your scouting report on the guys you got back? I seem to remember Guzman at least being a solid spect.

Second, did TB get anything else of note done today? Were you guys in any interesting talks that fell through that you can talk about now that the deadline is past?

Third, you mentioned in another thread you were hearing pretty solid stuff about Krivs being in on some big names. Can you give us any details? Any other good tidbits you can share now that the deadline is past, CIN or TB related or otherwise?

Finally, any more word on the thoughts about the guys in AAA? What is the TB brass going to do with these guys? Is Upton actually coming up with Lugo gone?

Thanks in advance for anything you can share. Your insight is always very much appreciated.

If this stuff isn't acceptable for general board use and you can chat, shoot me a PM. Always good to touch base.

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2006, 08:37 PM
Rotoworld.com says:


Devil Rays recalled third baseman B.J. Upton from Triple-A Durham.
Upton isn't playing tonight, but he should be in the starting lineup beginning tomorrow. The Rays certainly aren't calling him up to sit. Expect him to have considerable value in AL-only leagues. He'll be worth grabbing in mixed leagues if he gets off to a hot start. It's possible that he'll steal a dozen bases over the rest of the year.

buckeyenut
07-31-2006, 08:55 PM
Damn shame, given all the barking this kid and his friends did just a couple of days ago.

dougdirt
07-31-2006, 09:01 PM
Yeah, but if money didnt have anything to do with it, they all should be playing in TB. Dukes, Young and Upton are all unbelievably talented. Dukes and Young need a little maturity still, and I dont really mean baseball maturity, but talent wise, all 3 of them probably should be starting for TB 3 months ago. I am curious though as to the Upton situation and if the move to 3rd is for good, or if it is just a stop gap until they can get him to move somewhere else.

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2006, 09:03 PM
Damn shame, given all the barking this kid and his friends did just a couple of days ago.

Yeah, but I don't think he was involved. I think it was more of Delmon Young and Elijah Dukes. Dukes with his comments in the USA Today about the "Sewer Water Shower In The Minors" and with Delmon Young and the "Bat/Umpire" incident.

dougdirt
07-31-2006, 09:08 PM
I take that back, it was BJ Upton that had the tirade about not being promoted to the majors and Delmon and Dukes with him.

TeamBoone
07-31-2006, 10:49 PM
Yeah, but if money didnt have anything to do with it, they all should be playing in TB. Dukes, Young and Upton are all unbelievably talented. Dukes and Young need a little maturity still, and I dont really mean baseball maturity, but talent wise, all 3 of them probably should be starting for TB 3 months ago. I am curious though as to the Upton situation and if the move to 3rd is for good, or if it is just a stop gap until they can get him to move somewhere else.

I don't think that's for anyone but the manager and GM to say. There could have been a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that was holding them back.

A little maturity? That's an understatement.

I hate that he was called up. I hope he does something stupid and gets sent right back.

Team Clark
07-31-2006, 11:00 PM
TC,

I had a couple of questions for you coming out of today.

First, what is the line on the Lugo deal? You guys get more than you hoped? Was Lugo really asking for an 8M+ extension? What is your scouting report on the guys you got back? I seem to remember Guzman at least being a solid spect.

Second, did TB get anything else of note done today? Were you guys in any interesting talks that fell through that you can talk about now that the deadline is past?

Third, you mentioned in another thread you were hearing pretty solid stuff about Krivs being in on some big names. Can you give us any details? Any other good tidbits you can share now that the deadline is past, CIN or TB related or otherwise?

Finally, any more word on the thoughts about the guys in AAA? What is the TB brass going to do with these guys? Is Upton actually coming up with Lugo gone?

Thanks in advance for anything you can share. Your insight is always very much appreciated.

If this stuff isn't acceptable for general board use and you can chat, shoot me a PM. Always good to touch base.

1) Yes Lugo wanted an extension. I know that was discussed and broke off this morning. Lugo would have been traded MUCH sooner if Upton could catch groundballs. Upton thinks every play at SS could get him on Sports Center. Making the routine plays is too much to ask. (FeLo says HI) I do not have any data on the new guys coming in. From the sound of it we got what we wanted.

2)We were in talks with Toronto. I was heavily involved in that. We may actually get a deal done with them in Mid August. We had a nice package involving Lugo but Toronto wanted the opportunity to sign him to an extension. Lugo wants to be a FA. The tail wagged the dog on this one.

3)Krivsky was involved in the Tejada and Oswalt deals. Krivsky could have landed Oswalt from the Orioles. The asking price for Tejada was pretty darn high. I'm not sure I would trade a 20 game winner for a limited range SS no matter what power numbers he has. They can get an above avg SS to hit for avg and put up HR's in Minute Maid.

I spoke with my "sources" with the Astros today. Neeedless to say they are mightily PO'd with the Orioles. It's funny if it's not happening to you I guess.

Upton is up. Crying shame on one hand and maybe a good thing on the other. I wanted to be a fly on the wall when he met with Maddon and Mr. Friedman. Whew! Young could go to the Blue Jays or the Padres soon. Dukes, if we can afford to, will be left in AAA. He needs to sit in the corner a little longer.

redsfan30
07-31-2006, 11:09 PM
TC,

Were the Reds even halfway serious in bringing in Oswalt, or was it just passing talks?

redsfan4445
07-31-2006, 11:10 PM
3)Krivsky was involved in the Tejada and Oswalt deals. Krivsky could have landed Oswalt from the Orioles. The asking price for Tejada was pretty darn high. I'm not sure I would trade a 20 game winner for a limited range SS no matter what power numbers he has. They can get an above avg SS to hit for avg and put up HR's in Minute Maid.

can you imagine if Baltimore did the trade and we got Oswalt???? wow!!! and to think i was hoping the Astros didnt get Tejada!! :(

Team Clark
07-31-2006, 11:56 PM
TC,

Were the Reds even halfway serious in bringing in Oswalt, or was it just passing talks?


Reds, Mets and a few others. The Mets had the strongest push. They have a lot of Major League ready talent to deal.

buckeyenut
08-01-2006, 05:38 AM
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Much appreciated.

I actually like what the Mets did quite a bit until Linebrink fell through. But dealing Nady and bringing up Milledge probably makes them better.

I assume we would have given up Bailey and probably Bruce in a deal for Oswalt. Would the deal have been something like Claussen, Bailey, Bruce for Oswalt if it had gone our way?

I believe Upton is going to be fine for you guys now that he is up. He'll need some patience but he will get his issues ironed out.

I wish Narron had that type of patience with Encarnacion. He doesn't have the attitude problems, just needs a little understanding regarding the defensive errors. But man, what a bat.

princeton
08-01-2006, 07:32 AM
3)Krivsky was involved in the Tejada and Oswalt deals. Krivsky could have landed Oswalt from the Orioles.

instead we're holding Bag o'Relievers

Red Leader
08-01-2006, 08:48 AM
Whew! Young could go to the Blue Jays or the Padres soon. Dukes, if we can afford to, will be left in AAA. He needs to sit in the corner a little longer.

Delmon Young? The Rays are going to trade Delmon Young? You guys better be getting the farm for that kid.

Krusty
08-01-2006, 09:52 AM
It's a damn shame to see how Peter Angeleos has dragged the Orioles to the bottom of the barrel.

corkedbat
08-01-2006, 10:06 AM
I posted in another thread that I would have gone for Oswalt for the Reds and tried to extend him if the O's landed him and wanted to flip. I would've been one of the few deals were I wold've included Bailey and possibly Bruce. Can you imagine how PO'd the 'stros would have been at that one, if he'd landed back in the Division? :D

If Oswalt ever does hit the FA market, I'd love to see the Reds make a big time push for him, no matter how futile it our chances might seem

Team Clark
08-01-2006, 11:19 AM
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Much appreciated.

I actually like what the Mets did quite a bit until Linebrink fell through. But dealing Nady and bringing up Milledge probably makes them better.

I assume we would have given up Bailey and probably Bruce in a deal for Oswalt. Would the deal have been something like Claussen, Bailey, Bruce for Oswalt if it had gone our way?

I believe Upton is going to be fine for you guys now that he is up. He'll need some patience but he will get his issues ironed out.

I wish Narron had that type of patience with Encarnacion. He doesn't have the attitude problems, just needs a little understanding regarding the defensive errors. But man, what a bat.

I'm not sure what Krivsky proposed to Baltimore for Oswalt but I could not imagine a deal that did not include at least 3 pitchers in return. Maybe 4?

Upton will be fine. On his own. The "brat" pack will have to be broken up to make progress.

Narron does have patience with EdE. More than you can imagine. I speak to a few of the Reds coaches who have told me exactly what the situation is. EdE will play when it's time.

Team Clark
08-01-2006, 11:22 AM
I posted in another thread that I would have gone for Oswalt for the Reds and tried to extend him if the O's landed him and wanted to flip. I would've been one of the few deals were I wold've included Bailey and possibly Bruce. Can you imagine how PO'd the 'stros would have been at that one, if he'd landed back in the Division? :D

If Oswalt ever does hit the FA market, I'd love to see the Reds make a big time push for him, no matter how futile it our chances might seem

How cool would that have been for the Reds to throw Oswalt against his former team in a few weeks? LOL!??? I'm sure Krivsky would have locked him up for 4-5 years with options. Oswalt, Arroyo, Harang is a lock for 45-50 wins maybe more. A good bullpen and a good 4th starter get you a lock for 70 wins. An avergage 5th starter and a GREAT bullpen can get you to 85+ wins. Then you throw in the 10-15 extra inning wins or "wild games" to make up the rest. Any way you spell it it means playoffs.

Red Leader
08-01-2006, 11:23 AM
TC, have you gotten a chance to talk to Josh Hamilton, or see him play lately? What a great story that is. So happy he's been able to turn his life around. I hope he makes it all the way back. He's still young enough to have a decent career. Just curious if you've met him and talked to him since his return and what your outlook on him is.

Team Clark
08-01-2006, 11:25 AM
TC, have you gotten a chance to talk to Josh Hamilton, or see him play lately? What a great story that is. So happy he's been able to turn his life around. I hope he makes it all the way back. He's still young enough to have a decent career. Just curious if you've met him and talked to him since his return and what your outlook on him is.

No, but I hope to shortly. Even if the kid doesn't make it, he's still a success. From all of the things I have heard he has endured quite a bit. Baseball will keep him from getting into trouble.

Red Leader
08-01-2006, 11:33 AM
As an aside, if the Rays are seriously thinking about trading Delmon Young and eventually Carl Crawford and I would think they'd be able to address the three main areas that are left (IMO) on their major league team (SP, SP, CL, 1B): another stud starter to slide in behind Kazmir, a good #3 SP, a shut down closer and a stud first baseman. Get those four components this offseason and I could see the Rays making a jump to 70-75 wins next year without a problem. Still, a young team so maybe I'm being a little generous, but trading those two should net the Rays a LOT in return.

CougarQuest
08-01-2006, 01:14 PM
The Rays should be calling Japan to see what interests they have in Young, Dukes and Upton.

buckeyenut
08-01-2006, 05:54 PM
As an aside, if the Rays are seriously thinking about trading Delmon Young and eventually Carl Crawford and I would think they'd be able to address the three main areas that are left (IMO) on their major league team (SP, SP, CL, 1B): another stud starter to slide in behind Kazmir, a good #3 SP, a shut down closer and a stud first baseman. Get those four components this offseason and I could see the Rays making a jump to 70-75 wins next year without a problem. Still, a young team so maybe I'm being a little generous, but trading those two should net the Rays a LOT in return.
Any interest in Dumatrait and Votto for Young? On either side?

buckeyenut
08-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Narron does have patience with EdE. More than you can imagine. I speak to a few of the Reds coaches who have told me exactly what the situation is. EdE will play when it's time.

This is good to hear.

Any chance you can tell us what the situation actually is? Because from here, they haven't really explained it and it sure doesn't make sense from any perspective I can see on it, unless they are just that afraid of him making an error that costs them. We need his bat in the lineup.

redsmetz
08-01-2006, 10:58 PM
How cool would that have been for the Reds to throw Oswalt against his former team in a few weeks? LOL!??? I'm sure Krivsky would have locked him up for 4-5 years with options. Oswalt, Arroyo, Harang is a lock for 45-50 wins maybe more. A good bullpen and a good 4th starter get you a lock for 70 wins. An avergage 5th starter and a GREAT bullpen can get you to 85+ wins. Then you throw in the 10-15 extra inning wins or "wild games" to make up the rest. Any way you spell it it means playoffs.

Don't you pick up about 3-4 wins just not having to face Oswalt? :)

johngalt
08-02-2006, 12:37 AM
Any interest in Dumatrait and Votto for Young? On either side?

Delmon Young? As in Delmon Young, perhaps the top prospect in baseball?

It's gonna take a lot more than a solid first base prospect and a pitcher who profiles as a fifth starter or reliever.

buckeyenut
08-02-2006, 05:40 AM
Delmon Young? As in Delmon Young, perhaps the top prospect in baseball?

It's gonna take a lot more than a solid first base prospect and a pitcher who profiles as a fifth starter or reliever.

Not that Delmon Young. The Delmon Young who got a 50 game suspension for throwing a bat at an umpire. The Delmon Young who came out in the paper ripping his minor league team and the big club. The Delmon Young who TC said that Tampa was looking to deal. Tampa, the team needing a 1B spect and starting pitching.

15fan
08-02-2006, 08:36 AM
Sounds to me like Delmon Young needs some time around a guy like Greg Vaughn. A get in your face, cut the crap and bust it every freakin day personality.

I'm starting to think that the 2006 Reds could use a guy like Greg Vaughn (ca 1999), too...

REDREAD
08-02-2006, 09:37 AM
The Rays should be calling Japan to see what interests they have in Young, Dukes and Upton.

The Reds should've been talking to the Rays, and tried to buy low. I would welcome any of those three guys with open arms.

They're frustrated because "the man" at Tampa is keeping them down. It's human nature. Who wouldn't be upset at being passed over a promotion at work when it's totally obvious that you deserve it. Instead, the Rays are keeping them stuck there to delay the arb clock.

Kind of ironic that the Reds' fans like to cast stones at that trio when we've loved Dibble (threw at people's heads) and Freel (2 DUIs) and Pete Rose.

CougarQuest
08-02-2006, 10:57 AM
Young was suspended 50 games in April for throwing a bat at an umpire.

Dukes has been suspended twice by the Devil Rays for fights with a teammate and coach. Dukes has been suspended four times the last two years. On top of that, he was ejected five times last year and twice this year.

Upton was arrested in June for DWI.



The Reds should've been talking to the Rays, and tried to buy low. I would welcome any of those three guys with open arms.

They're frustrated because "the man" at Tampa is keeping them down. It's human nature. Who wouldn't be upset at being passed over a promotion at work when it's totally obvious that you deserve it. Instead, the Rays are keeping them stuck there to delay the arb clock.

Kind of ironic that the Reds' fans like to cast stones at that trio when we've loved Dibble (threw at people's heads) and Freel (2 DUIs) and Pete Rose.

15fan
08-02-2006, 11:05 AM
Dukes has been suspended twice by the Devil Rays for fights with a teammate and coach. Dukes has been suspended four times the last two years. On top of that, he was ejected five times last year and twice this year.

I'm going to go out on a limb & speculate that the kid has a Rasheed Wallace jersey in his wardrobe.

Benihana
08-02-2006, 11:41 AM
Young was suspended 50 games in April for throwing a bat at an umpire.

Dukes has been suspended twice by the Devil Rays for fights with a teammate and coach. Dukes has been suspended four times the last two years. On top of that, he was ejected five times last year and twice this year.

Upton was arrested in June for DWI.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't take a flier on any of them, especially Upton. I wouldn't sell the farm, but if we could pick them up on the cheap I would certainly swoop in.

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 11:45 AM
Any interest in Dumatrait and Votto for Young? On either side?

Not that I am aware and to be honest those two would not be enough for Delmon. A ML arm + a Major League ready prospect is what it will take.

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 11:46 AM
This is good to hear.

Any chance you can tell us what the situation actually is? Because from here, they haven't really explained it and it sure doesn't make sense from any perspective I can see on it, unless they are just that afraid of him making an error that costs them. We need his bat in the lineup.


No. I need to watch what I say. EdE is valuable to the Reds and he will be with them for quite some time barring a ridiculous trade offer.

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 11:47 AM
Don't you pick up about 3-4 wins just not having to face Oswalt? :)

Yes you do! Great point!!:laugh:

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:48 AM
I did notice that Dukes has been suspended indefintely by the Rays.

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 11:49 AM
Young was suspended 50 games in April for throwing a bat at an umpire.

Dukes has been suspended twice by the Devil Rays for fights with a teammate and coach. Dukes has been suspended four times the last two years. On top of that, he was ejected five times last year and twice this year.

Upton was arrested in June for DWI.

Dukes needs a 1 on 1 saesson with Bo Jackson and Greg Vaughn. I bet he would be singing a different tune. (If he was able to sing at all afterward)

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 11:50 AM
I did notice that Dukes has been suspended indefintely by the Rays.


I have not heard that yet. Although, that doesn't mean that it did not happen and it does not surprise me if it did. :eek:

redsmetz
08-02-2006, 11:55 AM
No. I need to watch what I say. EdE is valuable to the Reds and he will be with them for quite some time barring a ridiculous trade offer.

I'd be interested in hearing from some of the folks who have the historical viewpoints here on Redszone. I keep wondering if EE's situation is similar to other new players in the Reds past. A few come to mind: Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Tony Perez and Barry Larkin. I think his is most like Concepcion's in that he didn't just jump right in. We had Woody Woodward filling a gap during that time. Foster might be another one, although I think the issue was trying to find a slot for him which was found when Rose moved to third. Tony was similar to the Foster situation too, I think. Of course, Larkin is least like it because I believe the Reds were deciding who the "shortstop of the future" was between him and Kurt Stillwell. Of course, history shows they guessed right.

But I wonder if EE's situation isn't akin to Concepcion's.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:57 AM
I have not heard that yet. Although, that doesn't mean that it did not happen and it does not surprise me if it did. :eek:


Elijah Dukes said he might quit baseball after being suspended indefinitely Tuesday by the Rays pending an investigation into his five-game suspension by the International League.


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262103.html

Chip R
08-02-2006, 12:01 PM
Elijah Dukes said he might quit baseball after being suspended indefinitely Tuesday by the Rays pending an investigation into his five-game suspension by the International League.

I guess he can always go work on Jack Armstrong's tuna boat. ;)

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 12:02 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262103.html


When it rains it pours. It's worse when your umbrella is broken...

Team Clark
08-02-2006, 12:09 PM
From the BA Article:
"I have no idea when or if I'll be back," Dukes said in a telephone interview. "I packed up all my stuff and I'm headed home. To be honest, I don't even know about baseball anymore. Everything is just wearing on me and this year has just been so frustrating. I'm trying to keep my nose clean and keep to myself, but things just keep getting turned around. I'm tired of it." "I just don't know about baseball anymore," he said. "All this stuff keeps following me and now this. I'm tired of it. I don't know if I'm coming back or what. I don't know about the (Arizona) Fall League. I don't know about anything other than I'm going home.


The Parcells story fits perfectly here: Never your fault but you are always there when the trouble starts....


"I'm not saying I should have tried to get to the NFL, but maybe I should have done something else."

Probably a good fit. Maybe he can get Romanowski to counsel him on odd/innapropraite behavior.


Dukes says he was misquoted by another reporter who's trying to make him and his teammates look bad.

Yeah right! I'm sure he just picked the Evian and Sewer Water comments out of thin air.



"I love playing in Triple-A and I'm not (ticked) off about not being in the big leagues," he said. "If they want to give me a 10-year contract to play in Durham, I'd do it. I never said anything about my uniform being dirty or whatever. It's a joke."

Good think you like it because you may have to like it for 10 years.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 12:14 PM
Sounds like the Eggs really rolled the dice when they put those guys together. I would assume they have learned their lesson and the triumvirate won't be back together anytime soon.

Red Leader
08-02-2006, 12:41 PM
I can't think of worse news to hear from a rebuilding franchise. Well, other than "Scott Kazmir placed on 15 day DL with a sore shoulder."

Screw the umbrella, they need to take cover.

MartyFan
08-02-2006, 01:13 PM
Just wait to trade him and the others until the off season....the D-Rays need to get huge potential back for the three of these headcases.

15fan
08-02-2006, 03:33 PM
Just wait to trade him and the others until the off season....the D-Rays need to get huge potential back for the three of these headcases.

I think what you meant to say was this:

"The DRays need to ditch these guys asap. They should take whatever they get offered because the guys are bums, plain & simple. Heck, the folks in Tampa should dance a jig and pull the trigger on a deal if Wayne Krivsky called up Andrew Freidman and offered Eric Milton for Young, Dukes & Upton."

;)

Roy Tucker
08-02-2006, 03:50 PM
The USA Today article about these 3 guys...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/devilrays/2006-07-27-devil-rays-prospects-cover_x.htm

cincyinco
08-02-2006, 04:51 PM
Elijah Dukes said he might quit baseball after being suspended indefinitely Tuesday by the Rays pending an investigation into his five-game suspension by the International League.

Dukes, who was slated to return to Triple-A Durham's lineup tonight, was suspended by the leagues after he was ejected for arguing balls and strikes on July 25. "I have no idea when or if I'll be back," Dukes said. "I packed up all my stuff and I'm headed home. To be honest, I don't even know about baseball anymore. Everything is just wearing on me and this year has just been so frustrating. I'm trying to keep my nose clean and keep to myself, but things just keep getting turned around. I'm tired of it." Dukes will be back, but his chances of receiving a September callup could be gone. Even though they won't get equal talent in return, the Rays could choose to trade him in the offseason

Perhaps Dukes needs a change of scenery. I wouldn't mind seeing him in RF for the Reds, with Deno being the backup and/or CF when Griff is done.

LINEDRIVER
08-02-2006, 09:08 PM
I'd be interested in hearing from some of the folks who have the historical viewpoints here on Redszone. I keep wondering if EE's situation is similar to other new players in the Reds past. A few come to mind: Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Tony Perez and Barry Larkin. I think his is most like Concepcion's in that he didn't just jump right in. We had Woody Woodward filling a gap during that time. Foster might be another one, although I think the issue was trying to find a slot for him which was found when Rose moved to third. Tony was similar to the Foster situation too, I think. Of course, Larkin is least like it because I believe the Reds were deciding who the "shortstop of the future" was between him and Kurt Stillwell. Of course, history shows they guessed right.

But I wonder if EE's situation isn't akin to Concepcion's.

After doing some research, I've realized that perhaps some folks might say that Concepcion did in fact 'jump in'. Concepcion started his big league career in 1970. Davey started more games at SS in 1970 and again in 1971 than Woody Woodward. Woody retired after the '71 season. In 1972, Concepcion started 107 games at SS, Darrell Chaney started 47 games in the strike shortened 154 game season.

I did some further checking and found that Davey started 20 games at SS for the Reds in April, 1970. Woodward started 2 games in April, Darrell Chaney started 2 games in April. (Concepcion was the Reds' Opening Day SS on 4-6-70. In his 1st major league at-bat, he faced Expos' pitcher Joe Sparma and then grounded out to shortstop Bobby Wine) Apparently, the SS job was Davey's to lose based on who was getting the playing time out of the gate.

Davey made his share of errors when he came up in '70, 22 errors in 74 starts. Woodward may have appeared as the steadier hand with 9 errors in his 70 starts, but Davey had more speed & range. Concepcion was able to hit .260 in 265 AB's in his rookie year.

Concepcion's bat went sour in 1971 (.205 BA) and 1972 (.209) due to his inability to adjust to the opposing pitchers who were now knowing what to throw and where to throw it. Reds' batting coach Ted Kluszewski spent a zillion hours tutoring Concepcion and George Foster on the art of hitting major league breaking balls.

In 1973, Davey's hard work seemed to be finally paying off. He was hitting .287 when he broke his ankle in July. He missed the remainder of the year, but he was on his way to becoming a brilliant hitting and fielding shortstop.

*

MartyFan
08-02-2006, 11:19 PM
I think what you meant to say was this:

"The DRays need to ditch these guys asap. They should take whatever they get offered because the guys are bums, plain & simple. Heck, the folks in Tampa should dance a jig and pull the trigger on a deal if Wayne Krivsky called up Andrew Freidman and offered Eric Milton for Young, Dukes & Upton."

;)

I appreciate the spirit of your thought but my 2nd favorite team is the D-Rays and I want them to be in the WS with the Reds every year.

I became a D-Rays fan the first year they were around in Tampa...I lived down that way and was glad baseball was coming to a town near me...I ended up going to about 25 games that year...that organization has been behind the 8 ball the entire time they have been around but the new ownership is a huge step in the right direction...same as Mr. C with our beloved Reds.

redsmetz
08-03-2006, 07:57 AM
Linedriver, thanks for the excellent analysis and review. I'm maxed on the Rep Points I can give, but this clearly deserves it and I'll try to remember to come back and give you some.

The one thing that jumped out at me is Big Klu working with Davey and Foster to get them handling big league breaking stuff. I think back to TC mentioning that the Reds are regularly working with EE (not necessarily on hitting, rather on fielding), but also that the Reds are high on him and that he's not going anywhere. As frustrating as it is for fans, I think we need to trust the long term strategy of the team's management and hope to see Eddie in their regularly next season. Just my opinion.

Again, props on the great leg work.

cumberlandreds
08-03-2006, 08:54 AM
After doing some research, I've realized that perhaps some folks might say that Concepcion did in fact 'jump in'. Concepcion started his big league career in 1970. Davey started more games at SS in 1970 and again in 1971 than Woody Woodward. Woody retired after the '71 season. In 1972, Concepcion started 107 games at SS, Darrell Chaney started 47 games in the strike shortened 154 game season.

I did some further checking and found that Davey started 20 games at SS for the Reds in April, 1970. Woodward started 2 games in April, Darrell Chaney started 2 games in April. (Concepcion was the Reds' Opening Day SS on 4-6-70. In his 1st major league at-bat, he faced Expos' pitcher Joe Sparma and then grounded out to shortstop Bobby Wine) Apparently, the SS job was Davey's to lose based on who was getting the playing time out of the gate.

Davey made his share of errors when he came up in '70, 22 errors in 74 starts. Woodward may have appeared as the steadier hand with 9 errors in his 70 starts, but Davey had more speed & range. Concepcion was able to hit .260 in 265 AB's in his rookie year.

Concepcion's bat went sour in 1971 (.205 BA) and 1972 (.209) due to his inability to adjust to the opposing pitchers who were now knowing what to throw and where to throw it. Reds' batting coach Ted Kluszewski spent a zillion hours tutoring Concepcion and George Foster on the art of hitting major league breaking balls.

In 1973, Davey's hard work seemed to be finally paying off. He was hitting .287 when he broke his ankle in July. He missed the remainder of the year, but he was on his way to becoming a brilliant hitting and fielding shortstop.

*

That is a great analogy with Concepcion. I hope the Reds stick with EdE like they did with Concepcion. It will pay off. As long as EdE keeps working hard they should stay with him.

REDREAD
08-03-2006, 09:18 AM
Young was suspended 50 games in April for throwing a bat at an umpire.

Dukes has been suspended twice by the Devil Rays for fights with a teammate and coach. Dukes has been suspended four times the last two years. On top of that, he was ejected five times last year and twice this year.

Upton was arrested in June for DWI.

Young was frustrated. That was a dumb thing to do, but it doesn't necessarily make him a permanent bad person. The guy has a bad attitude about being in the minors, and it's justified. That's going to make him frustrated. The Devil Rays did a great job of making him hate going to work everyday. Even when good people work for a crappy boss, they are going to be more prone to snap or be less productive.

I don't care about Upton's DUI.. Freel has two DUIs and there hasn't been a campain to get him thrown off the team. In contrast, Freel is loved. Upton gets a bad rep just because he hangs out with the other "bad apples" and the press loves to generalize.

I don't know as much about Dukes, but Pinellia and Dibble fought, and they are cult heroes in Cincy. I'd need some more information. He may have character issues, but I don't think the other two guys are poison.

REDREAD
08-03-2006, 09:25 AM
So Dukes is suspended indefinitely for arguing balls and strikes? Or was it because of the "sewer water" comment?

In any event, how exactly do the Devil Rays expect this to help the situation? It's just going to make him and his friends more disgruntled.

I remember some people making the arguement about how teams should deliberately keep people in the minors as long as possible to max out their productivity in the cheap years. This is a great case study why that's not a good idea.

dougdirt
08-03-2006, 11:58 AM
Redread, I cant say this for absolute certainty, but I heard he bumped another umpire while argueing balls and sttrikes, which would not be his first time this year.

Cedric
08-03-2006, 11:59 AM
So Dukes is suspended indefinitely for arguing balls and strikes? Or was it because of the "sewer water" comment?

In any event, how exactly do the Devil Rays expect this to help the situation? It's just going to make him and his friends more disgruntled.

I remember some people making the arguement about how teams should deliberately keep people in the minors as long as possible to max out their productivity in the cheap years. This is a great case study why that's not a good idea.

Yeah, it's the Devil Rays fault these guys are acting like ten year olds.

In all actuality I understand your point about the frustration that builds when you worry more about contracts than playing the best 8. At the same time the players have some responsibility to not bump umpires and/or throw bats at them.

westofyou
08-03-2006, 12:23 PM
The guy has a bad attitude about being in the minors, and it's justified. Dmitri had a bad attitude about a fan in the minors and beat him up in the stands. 11 years later he beat on his GF.

Maybe Delmon is an immature punk and a good baseball player?

Rumor has it in MLB often the first part trumps the second part until a move has to be made.

M2
08-03-2006, 01:45 PM
Never your fault but you are always there when the trouble starts....

The same can be applied to the D-Rays organization. I've never seen a team's top prospects despise the organization they're in like we're seeing in Tampa Bay.

I understand that most of that falls on the head of the previous regime, but I'll hazard a guess here that the Rays could clear out all of the supposed attitude problems in the system and they'd just develop issues with a new set of kids if the organization doesn't take a hard look in the mirror.

Team Clark
08-03-2006, 01:54 PM
The same can be applied to the D-Rays organization. I've never seen a team's top prospects despise the organization they're in like we're seeing in Tampa Bay.

I understand that most of that falls on the head of the previous regime, but I'll hazard a guess here that the Rays could clear out all of the supposed attitude problems in the system and they'd just develop issues with a new set of kids if the organization doesn't take a hard look in the mirror.


Possibly but highly doubtful. Knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen I can not put a lot of weight behind your statement. If I had been here under the previous regime I would have been VERY PO'd. Will there be issues with players in the future. Undoubtedly. Every organization goes through that. Will the unrest be on the grand scale that we have had in the past? No way.

M2
08-03-2006, 02:10 PM
Possibly but highly doubtful. Knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen I can not put a lot of weight behind your statement. If I had been here under the previous regime I would have been VERY PO'd. Will there be issues with players in the future. Undoubtedly. Every organization goes through that. Will the unrest be on the grand scale that we have had in the past? No way.

I'd have a lot more confidence in your confidence if the unrest didn't seem to be a continuing problem.

I'm sure Dukes drags a pile of character defects behind him (come to think of it, seemingly every kid from Tampa Bay, the city not the organization, is a headcase), but he's not an isolated player vs. organization incident. I wouldn't encourage any internal backslapping until some of the mess you inherited is cleaned up ... and by cleaned up I don't mean lumping the blame on a bunch of kids and hoping the problems disappear with them.

REDREAD
08-04-2006, 01:56 PM
Yeah, it's the Devil Rays fault these guys are acting like ten year olds.

In all actuality I understand your point about the frustration that builds when you worry more about contracts than playing the best 8. At the same time the players have some responsibility to not bump umpires and/or throw bats at them.


It depends on what the "bump" was. Lou Pinella and Pete Rose were heroes for doing that. But they were always painted as the good guys, so they're allowed to do it. Young is a bad guy because of his age and hasn't played the role of "good soldier".

It's hard to keep for Young to keep a good attitude when he knows his bosses are focused on keeping him down as long as possible and hurting his career. Heck, it's probably a great career move for all those guys to spout off to USA today or whoever will listen. It will get them out of Tampa faster, and get them moved to a team that will actually use them. If Youn gets traded this offseason, he's going to be smiling and not really care about the method that gets it to happen. The Devil Rays partially brought this on themselves. Sure the kids could've shown more maturity, but the Rays shouldn't have let it reach the point where their attitudes were soured beyond repair. The hard line of multiple suspensions haven't worked before, why do they think it will work this time? The Tim Naehring concentration camp method of running the minors doesn't work for every kid.

REDREAD
08-04-2006, 01:57 PM
Dmitri had a bad attitude about a fan in the minors and beat him up in the stands. 11 years later he beat on his GF.

Maybe Delmon is an immature punk and a good baseball player?

Rumor has it in MLB often the first part trumps the second part until a move has to be made.

Or maybe you shouldn't judge a person based on his brother, perhaps?

deltachi8
08-05-2006, 01:55 AM
Or maybe you shouldn't judge a person based on his brother, perhaps?

Or perhapps we have seen jocks do it time an dtime and time and time again that it becomes natural to make that judgement. Nothing that gets reported on these guys suprises me anymore.

REDREAD
08-05-2006, 11:38 AM
Or perhapps we have seen jocks do it time an dtime and time and time again that it becomes natural to make that judgement. Nothing that gets reported on these guys suprises me anymore.

I think our view on what most athletes is tainted because it's the troublemakers who get all the press. For every wife beating athlete, there's probably at least 20 Sean Casey's or Griffeys that are good family men. But those guys don't make the press, because good behavior is boring to report on.