PDA

View Full Version : Tour De France winner Landis Tests Positive



5TimeWSChamps
07-31-2006, 11:41 PM
Link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2535787

reds1869
07-31-2006, 11:46 PM
How does this in any way suggest he was framed? To me it suggests he took hormone supplements.

macro
07-31-2006, 11:52 PM
Tests show that some of the testosterone in Floyd Landis' system at the Tour de France was synthetic and not naturally produced by his body as he claimed, according to a newspaper report.

The French antidoping lab testing the American cyclist's samples determined that some of the hormone came from an external source, The New York Times reported on its Web site Monday night, citing a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the result.

A confirmation of the result would undermine the defense that Landis has stood behind since he tested positive for an abnormally high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone following the 17th stage of the Tour de France, where he staged a stirring comeback in the Alps to make up for a poor performance the day before.

Uh, how does this suggest that he was framed? It says just the opposite.

Danny Serafini
08-01-2006, 12:25 AM
The initial headline espn.com used made it look like a setup, but it was pretty deceptive.

KalDanielsfan
08-01-2006, 03:23 AM
when they say external testosteone they meant he injected it into himself not that they added external testosterone to his test resuslts

no framing here.

he cheated. just like Lance did. and others. duh.

Jpup
08-01-2006, 06:52 AM
when they say external testosteone they meant he injected it into himself not that they added external testosterone to his test resuslts

no framing here.

he cheated. just like Lance did. and others. duh.

Lance didn't test positive.

OTOH, I don't care anything about watching dudes ride bikes, but that's just me.

NJReds
08-01-2006, 02:25 PM
Amazing that Lance continues to get thrown into this mess even though he's not tested positive over the last 10 years while numerous others have. That, and he's got a huge target on his back because he's basically hated in Europe.

If Lance is guilty, then so is every cyclist.

RedsFan75
08-01-2006, 02:41 PM
Lance is to cycling as Bonds is to baseball.

Nothing "proven", no positives, no concrete evidence other than conjecture and observation, many people saying they did, yet we are as convinced of Bond's guilt as the Europeans are of Lances.

I'm not saying they are innocent or Guilty I'm just saying it's a similar iconic situation.

BuckWoody
08-01-2006, 02:44 PM
But in the leaked grand jury testimony did Bonds not admit to using the "clear" and the "cream" but claimed to not know what it was? He thought is was flax seed oil...

RedsFan75
08-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Not to take it off track on a Bonds discussion, My point is just that Lance is the Euorpean Cycling version of Bonds.

NJReds
08-01-2006, 02:54 PM
Not to take it off track on a Bonds discussion, My point is just that Lance is the Euorpean Cycling version of Bonds.

Lance's appearance didn't change, ala Bonds. From a skinny ballplayer to the Incredible Hulk. And baseball didn't test for years.

Also, again: If Lance is a "doper" then how does he avoid detection when seemingly every major cyclist has not. This is random testing, all year around. Just lucky over the past 10 years? He has more enemies than allies, so how does he do it?

BuckWoody
08-01-2006, 03:01 PM
Not to take it off track on a Bonds discussion, My point is just that Lance is the Euorpean Cycling version of Bonds.
Agreed. I bet the number of European cycling enthusiasts who think Lance is clean is very nearly the same number of American baseball fans who think Bonds is clean.

registerthis
08-01-2006, 03:19 PM
Lance is to cycling as Bonds is to baseball.

Please. The only thing they have in common is that neither have ever officially "failed" a drug test. I know a lot of people want to "believe" that Lance juiced, but short of a whole lot of baseless speculation there's no evidence that he did.

Mr. Bonds, on the contrary, has significant evidence pointing to the fact that he did use--and use regularly. Unless you believe that Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams were just pulling evidence out of their rear.

registerthis
08-01-2006, 03:20 PM
Agreed. I bet the number of European cycling enthusiasts who think Lance is clean is...

...probably the same percentage who thought Jan Ullrich was juicing.

And, he was.

Roy Tucker
08-01-2006, 03:34 PM
A few years back, when I heard of these kinds of excuses about doping, I'd think there was something to them and give the athlete the benefit of the doubt.

But I've heard too many stonewallings in the face of overwhelming evidence. I think athletes just flat out lie through their teeth about steroids, HGH, et al and hope they can weasel out of the public eye just as fast as they can.

Not saying that Mr. Landis is guilty, but reasons like "I was framed", "I thought it was flax seed oil", "they rubbed testosterone cream on my legs" ring hollow these days.

RFS62
08-01-2006, 03:35 PM
when they say external testosteone they meant he injected it into himself not that they added external testosterone to his test resuslts



I believe they meant extraterrestrial testosterone. Not external. It was a typo.

BuckWoody
08-01-2006, 03:51 PM
...probably the same percentage who thought Jan Ullrich was juicing.

And, he was.
Never trust the opinion of a European cycling enthusiast...they don't know nothin'. :D

RedsFan75
08-01-2006, 04:10 PM
Lance's appearance didn't change, ala Bonds. From a skinny ballplayer to the Incredible Hulk. And baseball didn't test for years.

Also, again: If Lance is a "doper" then how does he avoid detection when seemingly every major cyclist has not. This is random testing, all year around. Just lucky over the past 10 years? He has more enemies than allies, so how does he do it?

When I lived in Texas I lived in the hill country outside Austin, I've seen Lance training, personally I really like the guy and want to defend him, but I defended Bonds for awhile too. If he is doping, and I really hope he's not, then I'm sure athletes all over the world want to know how he's getting away with it.

I'm of the camp that I really don't think he does, but the cloud of suspicion has been so heavy on so many athletes it's hard, even for someone as trusting and naive as I am to not be a bit suspicous anymore.

I hope that Landis 'B' sample comes out clean and normal and he can go on with life, but even if it does, that cloud is now swirling and his name will never be clear again. Just like with Lance, some disgruntled someone says to a reporter that he's doping and that's all we've ever heard. The court of public opinion has spoken and they are guilty no matter what the tests say.

Anyway enough of my ramblings on the matter

NJReds
08-01-2006, 04:20 PM
When I lived in Texas I lived in the hill country outside Austin, I've seen Lance training, personally I really like the guy and want to defend him, but I defended Bonds for awhile too. If he is doping, and I really hope he's not, then I'm sure athletes all over the world want to know how he's getting away with it.

I've never met him, but heard that he's a jerk. I don't really care if he's doping or not, as I'm not a big cycling fan (and that sport, like track and field, is down the tubes credibility-wise). But if he's getting away with it, he's one amazing dude.


I'm of the camp that I really don't think he does, but the cloud of suspicion has been so heavy on so many athletes it's hard, even for someone as trusting and naive as I am to not be a bit suspicous anymore.

I'm in the same camp. Except that I find it hard to believe that all these other big name cyclists have gone down, one by one, and yet he's avoided the positive test. That, and the French media has been despirate to sink the guy, but they can't. He's won defamation lawsuits in some cases, and that's no small feat.


I hope that Landis 'B' sample comes out clean and normal and he can go on with life, but even if it does, that cloud is now swirling and his name will never be clear again.

Doesn't seem likely that Landis will have any luck, as they've allegedly found "synthetic" testosterone. Although I don't trust the testing agency, either. But as this came after a stage where Landis had a miraculous comeback, it doesn't look good for the guy.

RedsFan75
08-01-2006, 04:26 PM
I've never met him, but heard that he's a jerk. I don't really care if he's doping or not, as I'm not a big cycling fan (and that sport, like track and field, is down the tubes credibility-wise). But if he's getting away with it, he's one amazing dude.


One comment on this, I wasn't around him much, but when I was he was EXTREMELY focused. I can see how that would come off as being a jerk


I'm in the same camp. Except that I find it hard to believe that all these other big name cyclists have gone down, one by one, and yet he's avoided the positive test. That, and the French media has been despirate to sink the guy, but they can't. He's won defamation lawsuits in some cases, and that's no small feat.


100% in agreement



Doesn't seem likely that Landis will have any luck, as they've allegedly found "synthetic" testosterone. Although I don't trust the testing agency, either. But as this came after a stage where Landis had a miraculous comeback, it doesn't look good for the guy.

and again full agreement.

macro
08-02-2006, 12:14 AM
I've never met him, but heard that he's a jerk.

I don't follow cycling whatsoever and know little about it, but I have a friend who follows it to the point of going to the Tour De France every year, and he would agree with this statement.

Fil3232
08-02-2006, 12:39 AM
Talk to enough people and anyone can be a jerk. Personally, the man is a hero and role model to many with cancer, does amazing acts of charity, and won the Tour de France seven straight years. America needs more 'jerks' if you ask me.

NJReds
08-02-2006, 09:41 AM
Talk to enough people and anyone can be a jerk. Personally, the man is a hero and role model to many with cancer, does amazing acts of charity, and won the Tour de France seven straight years. America needs more 'jerks' if you ask me.

Never said that he wasn't a hero, or that he wasn't generous. But in the context that he didn't make a lot of friends in cycling because of an abrasive attitude only reinforces the point to me that he's probably clean because there's not a lot of people out there that would stand up for him or protect him.

paintmered
08-05-2006, 11:31 AM
Looks like he's no longer recognized as the champion.



Landis 'B' sample confirms high testosterone ratio

PARIS -- Floyd Landis was fired by his team and the Tour de France no longer considered him its champion after his second doping sample tested positive Saturday for higher-than-allowed levels of testosterone.

The second or "B" sample, "confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding" in the "A" sample, the International Cycling Union said.

The Swiss-based team Phonak immediately severed ties with Landis and the UCI said it would ask USA Cycling to open disciplinary proceedings against him.

"Landis will be dismissed without notice for violating the teams internal Code of Ethics," Phonak said in a statement. "Landis will continue to have legal options to contest the findings. However, this will be his personal affair, and the Phonak team will no longer be involved in that."

Tour de France director Christian Prudhomme said Landis no longer was considered champion, but the decision to strip him of his title rests with the UCI.

"It goes without saying that for us Floyd Landis is no longer the winner of the 2006 Tour de France," Prudhomme told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "Our determination is even stronger now to fight against doping and to defend this magnificent sport."

Prudhomme said runner-up Oscar Pereiro of Spain would be the likely new winner.

"We can't imagine a different outcome," Prudhomme said.

If stripped of the title, Landis would become the first winner in the 103-year history of cycling's premier race to lose his Tour crown over doping allegations.

UCI lawyer Philippe Verbiest said Landis would officially remain Tour champion pending the American disciplinary process.

"Until he is found guilty or admits guilt, he will keep the yellow jersey," he said. "This is normal. You are not sanctioned before you are found guilty."

If found guilty, Landis also faces a two-year ban from the sport.

Despite the second positive test, Landis maintained his innocence.

"I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone," he said in a statement. "I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am the champion.

"I will fight these charges with the same determination and intensity that I bring to my training and racing. It is now my goal to clear my name and restore what I worked so hard to achieve."

Landis' urine sample was analyzed at the Chatenay-Malabry lab outside Paris.

The results of the second test come nearly two weeks after he stood atop the winner's podium on the Champs-Elysees in the champion's yellow jersey.

Landis' positive tests set off what could now be months of appeals and arguments by the American, who says the positive finding was due to naturally high testosterone levels. He has repeatedly declared his innocence.

"It's incredibly disappointing," three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond said by phone from the starting line at the Pan Mass Challenge in Sturbridge, Mass. "I don't think he has much chance at all to try to prove his innocence."

The tests were conducted on urine samples drawn July 20 after Landis' Stage 17 victory during a grueling Alpine leg, when he won back nearly eight minutes against then-leader Pereiro -- and went on to win the three-week race.

The case is expected to go to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency; the process could take months, possibly with appeals to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

"It doesn't end here," said Landis' Spanish lawyer, Jose Maria Buxeda. "What matters is the concept. A prohibited substance has been found in the samples, but no immediate sanction comes into effect yet. The rider will defend himself."

Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week tour and those results came back negative.

Landis' spokesman Michael Henson confirmed this week that the rider had tested positive for a testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 -- well above the 4:1 limit.

Landis has hired high-profile American lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented several athletes in doping cases.

Jacobs plans to go after the UCI for allegedly leaking information regarding the sample testing.

Earlier this week, a New York Times report cited a source from the UCI saying that a second analysis of Landis' "A" sample by carbon isotope ratio testing had detected synthetic testosterone -- meaning it was ingested.

Since the Phonak team was informed of the positive test on July 27, Landis and his defense team have offered varying explanations for the high testosterone reading -- including cortisone shots taken for pain in Landis' degenerating hip; drinking beer and whiskey the night before; thyroid medication; and his natural metabolism.

Another theory -- dehydration -- was rebuffed by anti-doping experts.

"When I heard it was synthetic hormone, it is almost impossible to be caused by natural events. It's kind of a downer," said LeMond, the first American to win the Tour. "I feel for Floyd's family. I hope Floyd will come clean on it and help the sport. We need to figure out how to clean the sport up, and we need the help of Floyd."

RBA
08-05-2006, 11:36 AM
The title of this thread should be edited. It's misleading.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 06:15 PM
Landis has hired high-profile American lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented several athletes in doping cases.

Jacobs plans to go after the UCI for allegedly leaking information regarding the sample testing.


Howard is my fiancee's cousin-in-law, for those who care about such things. Got to stay at their place last year when we were out in California, he's got quite a sports memorabalia collection going. He has become one of the country's preeminent athletic lawyers because he and his wife are in incredibly good condition. His wife--my fiancee's cousin--actually WON a 500 mile bike race through the desert several years ago.

Sick stuff, if you ask me.

NJReds
11-15-2006, 12:43 PM
Seems there's more to this story.


Report: Lab in Landis case made 'administrative error' on 'B' sample
Nov 15 10:49 AM US/Eastern

PARIS (AP) - The French anti-doping lab that tested American cyclist Floyd Landis' urine samples made an "administrative error" when reporting its findings on his backup "B" sample, the French newspaper Le Monde reported Wednesday.

The newspaper cited unnamed sources as saying the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory gave the wrong number in its report about Landis' second sample. Tests on the rider's two samples indicated that Landis had elevated levels of testosterone in his system when he won the Tour de France in July.

In its report, the lab wrote that the "B" sample tested was number 994,474, while the actual number was 995,474, Le Monde said.

"The error, of an administrative nature, does not mean the positive B sample was not that of the American," Le Monde said. "But it is being used today by his lawyers ... to contest his positive doping results."

Contacted Wednesday by The Associated Press, the lab referred questions to the French anti-doping agency. The agency's secretary general, Philippe Dautry, declined to comment on the report.

Landis' lawyer, Howard Jacobs, has already alleged that the French lab made repeated errors in its analyses, including mismatched sample code numbers.

In a letter sent to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in September, Jacobs said the positive finding on the "B" sample came from a sample number not assigned to Landis.

"It's incredibly sloppy," Jacobs said at the time. "It has to make you wonder about the accuracy of the work."

On Sunday, Landis said in a French television interview that the lab made crucial errors in his tests.

"Even the best people make mistakes," he said. "I can't say that the lab is always a bad lab, but I can say that in this case it made some mistakes ... I did not take testosterone."

Le Monde's report came a day after French authorities said they are investigating a complaint that hackers stole data from computers at the same lab in an attempt to discredit the lab's credibility.

Tour de France organizers no longer consider Landis the Tour champion. He will contest the test results at an arbitration hearing in the United States. If found guilty of doping, he would be formally stripped of the title and face a two-year ban.

oneupper
11-15-2006, 06:17 PM
It's absolutely IDIOTIC to think that because someone wrote 994,474 on a test tube (or report sheet) instead of 995,474 that the test wasn't Landis' and that he didn't cheat.

Ban him for 2 years for doping...and ban him for LIFE for not being a MAN and hiding behind a lawyer looking for the most ridiculous technicality.

M2
11-15-2006, 06:32 PM
It's absolutely IDIOTIC to think that because someone wrote 994,474 on a test tube (or report sheet) instead of 995,474 that the test wasn't Landis' and that he didn't cheat.

Ban him for 2 years for doping...and ban him for LIFE for not being a MAN and hiding behind a lawyer looking for the most ridiculous technicality.

Though the question I've asked myself is that Landis is in the middle of the competition, he knows he's going to be tested after the race that day just like he has every day before it, why on earth would he think that juicing for that one stage wouldn't be detected?

As far as I know, Landis' samples from the rest of the competition didn't turn up anything untoward. Certainly someone's done something colossally stupid, either Landis or the testing agency, because I've yet to hear an explanation about this, from either side, that makes sense. Either Landis needled up with a bunch of steroids that any sensible person on the planet had to know would show up in testing or the lab screwed up/stacked the testing.

oneupper
11-15-2006, 11:32 PM
Since the sample was split, if I understand correctly, the only explanation -other than doping- would have to be sample tampering BEFORE it was split
(tainted cup?).

I go with Okum's Razor on this one.

registerthis
11-16-2006, 10:36 AM
Ban him for 2 years for doping...and ban him for LIFE for not being a MAN and hiding behind a lawyer looking for the most ridiculous technicality.

Since I personally know Landis's attorney, I can say with certainty that there have been *numerous* times when--due to a "technicality"--an athlete has been wrongly accused of cheatign and/or drug use. People sometimes forget that athletes who are suspended or banned from their sport are being deprived of their livelihoods. It's akin to not only being fired from your place of employment, but from also being banned from seeking any other type of employment in your chosen field.

Now, certainly, if they're truly cheating, they deserve what's coming to them. But the system is biased against the athlete--there's no assumption of innocence for athletes accused of drug use, the burden is on them to prove that the accusations are incorrect. And frequently, even when exonerated, the stigma of a drug accusation hangs over their heads for the remainder of their careers (see Armstrong, Lance).

In other words, Landis "hiding behind a lawyer" is exactly what every one of us would be doing if we felt our livelihoods and ability to make a living were being threatened.

oneupper
11-16-2006, 02:10 PM
In other words, Landis "hiding behind a lawyer" is exactly what every one of us would be doing if we felt our livelihoods and ability to make a living were being threatened.

Yeah, probably, since "coming clean" tends to have little favorable effect in all these ethical cases (see Rose, PETE; Bonds, BARRY; Simpson, ORENTHAL)

The guy is grasping at straws.


Since the Phonak team was informed of the positive test on July 27, Landis and his defense team have offered varying explanations for the high testosterone reading -- including cortisone shots taken for pain in Landis' degenerating hip; drinking beer and whiskey the night before; thyroid medication; and his natural metabolism.

Maybe someone laced his beer or scotch? It's all possible. If someone was trying to take this guy down, they did a good job.
Things don't look good for this guy.

registerthis
11-16-2006, 02:30 PM
The guy is grasping at straws.

Perhaps, but then again if they're transcribing numbers incorrectly, it does make you wonder what else they got wrong.

oneupper
11-16-2006, 03:36 PM
Perhaps, but then again if they're transcribing numbers incorrectly, it does make you wonder what else they got wrong.

The odds of TWO labs messing up the results of the SAME sample in the same way (the results of the A and B samples concur), are so remote that if you want an explanation...any of the other ones (tampering, framing, cortisone, alchohol, metabolism) is WAY better.

Chip R
05-18-2007, 02:29 PM
It appears that this case is getting really freaky.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=2874312

registerthis
05-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Man that's ugly.

NJReds
05-18-2007, 03:29 PM
Real ugly. Talk about a sport that's just imploded. LeMond does seem to be on a crusade against Armstrong, though.

Chip R
05-18-2007, 03:39 PM
Real ugly. Talk about a sport that's just imploded. LeMond does seem to be on a crusade against Armstrong, though.


Yeah. Bitter much, Greg?

Roy Tucker
05-18-2007, 03:49 PM
It appears that this case is getting really freaky.



Holy cats, you can say that again.

Chip R
05-18-2007, 04:04 PM
Holy cats, you can say that again.


It appears that this case is getting really freaky. :p:

Chip R
05-20-2010, 10:19 AM
And three years later Landis confesses he was a PED user.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604

redsfandan
05-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Shocking.

Roy Tucker
05-27-2010, 12:45 PM
Interesting stuff.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5222488

oneupper
05-27-2010, 12:49 PM
My memory is so bad. I forgot I posted on this thread.

In any case. Occam's Razor wins again.