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RedEye
08-01-2006, 12:14 AM
edabbs44 made reference to him this way over in the ORG, and I thought it was an apt nickname (I can't quote him directly here because I don't yet have access to ORG). Anyway, I'm starting to think that our GM is a bit crazy--very much the opposite of DanO, which is nice, but a bit reckless with our limited resources.

IMO, we've now made three straight deals in which we have significantly overpaid for mediocre returns:

1) 2 everyday players (Lopez, Kearns) for 2 relievers (Majewskl, Bray) and change (a certain "good field, no hit" SS and two middling prospects)
2) A passable young starter (Germano) for a 39 year-old reliever (Cormier) who really wouldn't be needed if the last overpayment had worked out (Majewski).
3) One of the "best pure arms in the system" (Ward) for a head case starter-possible reliever who might be a passable 5th starter to replace the one just dealt away (Germano).

To me, it seems like he is making moves that, while good for the team now, are costing much more than is advisable. I'm into the idea of shooting for the playoffs as much as the next guy, but at what cost?

More importantly, these moves are starting to seem to be simple exchanges rather than upgrades. It's as if he's trying to erase defecits he's created a few days earlier. To wit, we gave up a lot for a righty setup man (Majik). When he didn't work out right away, we gave up a young starter for another setup man (Cormier). Then, because we just lost a passable young starter (Germano), we dealt for another one (Lohse).

Is there a method to this madness, or is Santa K simply dealing for the sake of dealing? At this rate, all the other teams will float trades by Santa first just to make sure they can't fleece him before they go on to normal trade talks with another club.

I want to trust in Kriv, but I'm having a hard time these days.

Cedric
08-01-2006, 12:17 AM
Germano is significantly overpaying? He's nothing, an absolute easy trade to make. I have no idea how anyone could complain about that one.

RedEye
08-01-2006, 12:23 AM
I don't see how you can give up a 23 year-old starter for a 39 year-old reliever when we just traded the rest of our team for two relievers two weeks ago. My problem with the Germano deal has less to do with him than with the way it reflects on the supposed 'blockbuster' we just made to fix our bullpen that didn't work.

Rob Dicken
08-01-2006, 12:38 AM
I don't see how you can give up a 23 year-old starter for a 39 year-old reliever when we just traded the rest of our team for two relievers two weeks ago. My problem with the Germano deal has less to do with him than with the way it reflects on the supposed 'blockbuster' we just made to fix our bullpen that didn't work.

The rest of our team? We traded two everyday mediocre players and a low-calibur reliever....for middle relief....which we DESPERATELY needed.

So, how's that the rest of our team?

Not to mention....Justin Germano is a starter? Since when? Since we started him one game to show him off to the Phillies? Do you honestly think he would've started for the Reds the rest of the season? I don't think so....you would have to think, the minds are set on the future as well. With Homer Bailey constantly getting better, you'd have to think that he would be in the starting rotation....not Germano.

We made some pretty good deals in my opinion.

Redus
08-01-2006, 12:43 AM
Oh I can go much better. Krivsky Kringlesky.

RedsMan3203
08-01-2006, 12:44 AM
All the other NL Wildcard teams sat on their hands today... While the Reds kept calling... and calling.


LA Picks up Maddux...
STL Picks up Sosa...
Mets get Hernandez/Perez
Reds get Cormier/Lohse

What do the Reds lose? 2 players that could NEVER see the light of day... What do we get? Added depth to our bulpen... Wayne K set us up for the long haul this season....

We no longer have a White, Hammond, Burns, Yan, ECT to worry about. We have a good pen and probably one of the BEST in the NL.

Rojo
08-01-2006, 12:57 AM
Yeah, I think its fair to question the Nats deal but don't let that color your opinion of the other deals - their nothing-for-nothing at worst.

My only problem with the day's activities is Cormier's extension. That seems so DanO.

cincrazy
08-01-2006, 01:08 AM
I think at best Germano is a long reliever in the future. And Krivsky is a great judge of talent, so I have trust in his belief that Zach Ward is worth giving up. And Kearns and Lopez, although solid players, are hardly cornerstones of a championship team. I doubted Krivsky when he brought in Arroyo, Phillips, Ross and Hatteberg, and I learned my lesson.

Gallen5862
08-01-2006, 01:09 AM
Cormier would not waive his 10 5 rights without the extension.

TeamBoone
08-01-2006, 01:12 AM
Why all the derogatory adjectives for Kearns and Lopez now that they're gone?

I know that there were some who didn't think very highly of one or the other (even fewer thought less of them both) while they were here, but for the most part, they were critiqued fairly.

Now that they're gone, they seem to be garbage to most everyone whenever their names are mentioned. And some don't even wish them well with their new team.

I'm not talking about just this thread, but several... this one just kind of put the situation over the top after reading it over and over.

jimbo
08-01-2006, 01:17 AM
I don't see how you can give up a 23 year-old starter for a 39 year-old reliever when we just traded the rest of our team for two relievers two weeks ago. My problem with the Germano deal has less to do with him than with the way it reflects on the supposed 'blockbuster' we just made to fix our bullpen that didn't work.

I don't even feel like we gave up a quarter of our team in that trade. And I don't care if the guy is 50 years old, he has the lowest ERA of all relievers in the NL. You gave up a 23 year old starter who is projected to be a back of the rotation or spot starter at best.

I'm not sure how you can say that trade didn't work. The results speak for themselves. In the 16 games before the trade the Reds were 6-10, they are 10-6 in the 16 games since the trade.

RedEye
08-01-2006, 01:21 AM
Yeah, I think its fair to question the Nats deal but don't let that color your opinion of the other deals - their nothing-for-nothing at worst.


I don't think these are nothing-for-nothing deals. We take on a fair amount of salary with Lohse and Cormier, plus another year for Rheal. Plus, we give up all of the upside in these deals. In my opinion, neither of them amounts to much for now... and we could be giving up part of our future in Ward and Germano. It's not like the Reds system is swimming in pitching prospects capable of competing at the ML level.

I hope Kriv is right... I really do... but it seems the more deals he makes, the more I doubt. Strangely, I was all aboard for the Arroyo (okay, after a bit of griping about losing Wily Mo I snapped out of it), Phillips (a win-win sitch IMO at the time) and Ross deals (I had never heard of him, but didn't see the harm, even if he was a catcher). Guardado made sense to me as well. But these last three deals... I feel like he's grasping at straws.

Time will tell. I really, truly hope these deals are the key to the playoffs. And I will be the first to sing K's praises if they are.

KalDanielsfan
08-01-2006, 01:27 AM
Why all the derogatory adjectives for Kearns and Lopez now that they're gone?



agreed..werent we in first place in the central and then first in the wild card while they were on the team? they helped us get to the point.

and if you guys are overly excited about Lohse and Cormier then, well, im sorry.

also i disagree by a looong shot by those of you who think we have one of th best bullpens in the NL now. lmfao

we have a better than average one at best.

krivsky has been overrated since the arroyo and phillips acquisitions..those two were great but dont blindly call every move he makes "genius" just cuz he made a move

my opinion? we get ousted in the first round with this roster

The Baumer
08-01-2006, 01:36 AM
Honestly, do we want a GM who thinks of Germano-type players as our future? Or do we want a GM who seperates the real prospects (Bailey) from the trash?

Our minor leagues suck. WayneK seems like he knows this and is getting the team legitimate major leaguers from the free agency and trade pools, rather than depending on Justin Germano to fix the team's pitching problem.

TOBTTReds
08-01-2006, 01:43 AM
agreed..werent we in first place in the central and then first in the wild card while they were on the team? they helped us get to the point.

and if you guys are overly excited about Lohse and Cormier then, well, im sorry.

also i disagree by a looong shot by those of you who think we have one of th best bullpens in the NL now. lmfao

we have a better than average one at best.

krivsky has been overrated since the arroyo and phillips acquisitions..those two were great but dont blindly call every move he makes "genius" just cuz he made a move

my opinion? we get ousted in the first round with this roster

I would love if we get ousted in the first round!:beerme: We made the playoffs then!

We have no shortstop, I agree Kriv is overrated because of some good moves early (like Greg Maddux, without the awful part after the great beginning, just good in my opinion).

I was bashing Kearns since last year, so can I still continue?:devil:

I agree we have a bullpen that is slightly above average. If Majew comes back to form, he will REALLY help us. But I really like our moves today, I just wish we had moved up Ward during the year to see what he could do in high A, but now I realize why they didn't. He was trade bait all along, so they tried to juice his numbers by keeping him in low A.

ChatterRed
08-01-2006, 01:55 AM
I like the Cormier move. I hate the Lohse move.

I liked Ward. It was a bad trade. I don't care about Germano. He will be a 4th or 5th starter eventually........a dime a dozen. Ward had serious potential. Bad trade.

KalDanielsfan
08-01-2006, 01:59 AM
first round is nice, but i am not content with playoffs..i want a W.S. ya know? i want griffey to win one badly. and for his hometown team.

cincrazy
08-01-2006, 02:48 AM
I want a World Series to man, but for God's sake we were a 70 win team the last 5 years. Things just don't change over night, it takes time. The Big Red Machine was a very good team for a long time before they ever won a World Series. A ring this year would be fantastic, but also we have to be realistic. For this team, it's first winning record since 2000 is improvement. Anything more than that is gravy.

KalDanielsfan
08-01-2006, 03:00 AM
I want a World Series to man, but for God's sake we were a 70 win team the last 5 years. Things just don't change over night, it takes time. The Big Red Machine was a very good team for a long time before they ever won a World Series. A ring this year would be fantastic, but also we have to be realistic. For this team, it's first winning record since 2000 is improvement. Anything more than that is gravy.

didnt the 1992 twins go from worst to first?

there was another team that went from worst to first a few years ago..maybe the diamondbacks? i forget..

so it is possible to turn it around in one year IMHO

CincyReds2003
08-01-2006, 03:03 AM
didnt the 1992 twins go from worst to first?

there was another team that went from worst to first a few years ago..maybe the diamondbacks? i forget..

so it is possible to turn it around in one year IMHO

Also, we can't forget about the Reds in 1989. They were 75-87, 17 games back, and in fifth place, and the next year....91-71..World Champs.

KalDanielsfan
08-01-2006, 03:22 AM
Also, we can't forget about the Reds in 1989. They were 75-87, 17 games back, and in fifth place, and the next year....91-71..World Champs.


1990 reds---- by far the greatest team assembled in terms of talent, personalities, chemistry, and charaters..

just look up that roster and it brings back great memories of how much fun it was to watch them play together.

the rotation, the nasty boys, wow. what a magical year

HumnHilghtFreel
08-01-2006, 03:28 AM
In the press conference, WK sounded so much like he was just dismissing Ward comepletely like he never thought twice about the deal, so I'm going to trust that he knew what he was doing and that keeping him in low A was, like others said, just to make him trade bait. I like the deal because it continues to strengthen our pitching and the offense wasnt affected this time around.

Redhook
08-01-2006, 08:37 AM
While I'm ecstatic we have a proactive GM, and I do think he has improved our ballclub immensely this year, I am now more upset with the Kearns/Lopez trade. I do think Bray and Majic are better than Lohse and Cormier, but by how much? Lohse and Majic are fairly similar. Obviously, Bray has much more upside than Cormier because of age and his arm, but did we really have to give up Lopez and Kearns for those two guys when we got something similar for a AAA and A prospects? I don't think there's any doubt Krivsky overpaid with Kearns/Lopez. It's over with now, but yesterday's trades made me realize once again how much he overpaid. I don't see how we couldn't have gotten Armas Jr. or Livan in that trade, somehow. We still need a 5th starter...bad.

puca
08-01-2006, 08:52 AM
All the other NL Wildcard teams sat on their hands today... While the Reds kept calling... and calling.


LA Picks up Maddux...
STL Picks up Sosa...
Mets get Hernandez/Perez
Reds get Cormier/Lohse

What do the Reds lose? 2 players that could NEVER see the light of day... What do we get? Added depth to our bulpen... Wayne K set us up for the long haul this season....

We no longer have a White, Hammond, Burns, Yan, ECT to worry about. We have a good pen and probably one of the BEST in the NL.

I don't think I'd go as far as say one of the BEST bullpens in the NL. We have a lot of depth, but there still no "shutdown" guy there, simply a mix of some above average arms with little experience and some BABIP lucky veterans.

If by "long haul" this season you mean improved our chances to hang onto the wild card, I agree. If you mean significantly improved our chances of doing damage in the playoffs, I disagree.

sdwagers
08-01-2006, 08:56 AM
Every trade thus far that Krivsky has made to me makes perfect sense. Of course I wanted him to be GM when they hired OBrian.

Dave Williams. Gone.
Josh Hancock. Gone
Bubba and the Bong. Gone and Gone.

Joe Randa netted us Cormier and Guardado. A steal.

Majewski much better than he has pitched thus far, I believe that he is hurt and Bray is going to be the closer someday IMHO.

Ross, Arroyo and Philips. Incredible.

When the Reds make the playoffs this year, all of these moves that people have not liked will be an afterthought.

Props to Castellini...

and Wayne Krivsky = Super Genius.

ChatterRed
08-01-2006, 09:19 AM
I like all the moves but the one for Lohse. It has to be a reclamation project, which get tiring. Starting to remind me of O'Brien with that move. Maybe they know Ward is nothing special..........but from the looks of things, Lohse isn't either. I would have taken my chances in developing Ward before adding another project who has had his chance to shine and not done it.

I agree about Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross being some very strong moves.

In regard to Dave Williams...........I bet when they were rolling out Joe Mays they wished they still had Dave Williams. He was better than Mays.

Redhook
08-01-2006, 09:25 AM
Every trade thus far that Krivsky has made to me makes perfect sense. Of course I wanted him to be GM when they hired OBrian.

Dave Williams. Gone.
Josh Hancock. Gone
Bubba and the Bong. Gone and Gone.

Joe Randa netted us Cormier and Guardado. A steal.

Majewski much better than he has pitched thus far, I believe that he is hurt and Bray is going to be the closer someday IMHO.

Ross, Arroyo and Philips. Incredible.

When the Reds make the playoffs this year, all of these moves that people have not liked will be an afterthought.

Props to Castellini...

and Wayne Krivsky = Super Genius.

I like most of Krivsky's moves and I'm glad he's here, but he is not a super genius. If he was, he would've gotten alot more for Kearns and Lopez. He would've figured out a way to get Lohse for someone else than Zach Ward. Minnesota didn't want Lohse and just wanted to get rid of him. I don't see why we had to give up one of our best prospects to get him. Joe Mays was certainly not a genius move. He shouldn't have been give a chance, and then when he failed he shouldn't have pitched again. Big mistake. Why didn't Krivsky get a 5th starter? Since Claussen is pitching like Mays, Lohse will probably start, but he was supposed to go to the pen. With Kearns and Lopez, we should've easily been able to get a starter to help us out this year.

Krivsky is a very good, but I believe he has made some mistakes. Big ones.

ChatterRed
08-01-2006, 09:30 AM
I think the most glaring mistake is the failure to solidify the 5th starter spot. I still don't think Kearns and Lopez are as good as everyone wants to make them out to be.

Redhook
08-01-2006, 09:35 AM
I think the most glaring mistake is the failure to solidify the 5th starter spot. I still don't think Kearns and Lopez are as good as everyone wants to make them out to be.

There not. I don't miss Kearns. I only miss Lopez because we're looking at Clayton and Castro at SS right now. But, with those two we should've been able to land another starter better than Claussen, Germano, Mays, Lohse, and Milton. I'm sure he tried yesterday, but overselling on Kearns/Lopez didn't help.

REDREAD
08-01-2006, 01:31 PM
didnt the 1992 twins go from worst to first?

there was another team that went from worst to first a few years ago..maybe the diamondbacks? i forget..

so it is possible to turn it around in one year IMHO

I think Atlanta did it as well. The first year of their run of division titles.
But maybe they went from 5th to 1st.

Jr's Boy
08-01-2006, 01:52 PM
Reds bullpen era before trade 5.22,since trade 3.42.No argument here.It's nothing but short of amazing how Krivsky has improved this relief pitching in such a fast time.While other GM's whine about no relief pitching available,Wayne did not mess around and went and found some.You just cannot trade minor league filler and expect to get major league players in return unless you give up top talent in your system.
Reds are in the drivers seat thus far in the wildcard,and I am thrilled to be watching this team fight tooth and nail to stay in the hunt.Krivsky is aggresive and that's what this team needs in a GM.Playing it safe gets you no where.

terminator
08-01-2006, 02:06 PM
I think we are a better team for the rest of the year because of these deals and I don't think we gave up much.

I think Krivsky is a good judge of talent, and his trades will at least end up appearing to be fair ones. I think he has already shown himself to be too smart to be taken advantage of in a deal.

That said, I would have passed on these two guys (Cormier and Lohse) and saved the $6MM for the offseason and put it toward a $10-15MM per year deal for a starter like Schmidt or Zito.

timmario66
08-01-2006, 02:21 PM
I believe that he has also built the bullpen for next season as well with the exception of closer.

Next year, the Reds will already have Bray, Majewski, Cormier, Coffey, Belisle, Shackelford, Standridge, and the possibility of Balfour with Cormier the only one over 30. Looks a lot better than Burns, Mercker, White, Hammonds, and Weathers.

I think they may keep Guardardo if he continues to pitch well. But they still need a hammer for the backend of the bullpen if Coffey still proves he's not ready for the closer role.

sdwagers
08-01-2006, 02:35 PM
I like most of Krivsky's moves and I'm glad he's here, but he is not a super genius. If he was, he would've gotten alot more for Kearns and Lopez. He would've figured out a way to get Lohse for someone else than Zach Ward. Minnesota didn't want Lohse and just wanted to get rid of him. I don't see why we had to give up one of our best prospects to get him. Joe Mays was certainly not a genius move. He shouldn't have been give a chance, and then when he failed he shouldn't have pitched again. Big mistake. Why didn't Krivsky get a 5th starter? Since Claussen is pitching like Mays, Lohse will probably start, but he was supposed to go to the pen. With Kearns and Lopez, we should've easily been able to get a starter to help us out this year.

Krivsky is a very good, but I believe he has made some mistakes. Big ones.

Joe Mays was a stop gap move. It wasn't pretty, but no bodys 5th starter is since the league expanded and we have wild card divisional play. Pitching is a premium price and Mays was there to eat innings. Zach Ward has nt been proven above Low-A and certainly wasnt in the class of Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, or Votto.

Our needs when we traded Kearns and Lopez were not starters, we needed bull pen guys.

cincrazy
08-01-2006, 03:00 PM
Kal, I was by no means writing off our chances for this year. I want to win as much as anyone here. But, with that being said, I'm also happy with a playoff berth, even if that means no World Series Berth. The Reds core, for the most part, is inexperienced in situations such as this, and a lot of times it takes a team time to "get over the hump" (sorry for the cliche, haha). I'm very excited about the rest of this season, but I'm also very excited to see progress, period. Wow, I look debating about how good this team can be, as opposed to last year, when we were debating how bad they were :)

Redhook
08-01-2006, 03:59 PM
Joe Mays was a stop gap move. It wasn't pretty, but no bodys 5th starter is since the league expanded and we have wild card divisional play. Pitching is a premium price and Mays was there to eat innings. Zach Ward has nt been proven above Low-A and certainly wasnt in the class of Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, or Votto.

Our needs when we traded Kearns and Lopez were not starters, we needed bull pen guys.

Mays didn't stop gap anything. Germano could have pitched better than Mays in those games. Many 5th starters in the majors aren't very good, but NONE are as bad as Joe Mays. He was here way too long and this race is way to tight to be throwing away games, which is basically what we tried to do with Mays out there.

On Zach Ward, I'll trust the reports I've read about him from fellow Redzoners in the minor league threads. People that have seen him pitch are not happy campers right now that he is gone.

Our needs were bullpen guys and one more starting pitcher. At the time we had Mays and Claussen on the D.L. Poor options. Claussen is pitching awful right now, Mays is gone, and Lohse is supposed to be for our bullpen. I still think we needed another starter.

flyer85
08-01-2006, 04:01 PM
Wayne does kinda look like Billy Bob Thornton. :evil:

Red Leader
08-01-2006, 04:04 PM
Oh I can go much better. Krivsky Kringlesky.

I'm surprised no one gave you props for this. I thought it was funny. :laugh: :thumbup: