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View Full Version : For pete's sake, stop the whining ...



osuceltic
08-01-2006, 10:35 AM
It's time to accept a few things and enjoy the PENNANT RACE ...

... Royce Clayton is the starting shortstop. He's not the long-term answer and you may not believe he's the best option right now. Krivsky and Narron disagree. He's the quarterback of the infield. They're not juggling everything around with 50 games to go. Get over it and support the guy. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Rich Aurilia is going to play. A lot. And guess what? He's producing. Edwin Encarnacion will have his time. Right now, Aurilia is a huge part of the success this team is having. Along with a solid glove and productive bat, he's the vocal leader this team has lacked. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Edwin Encarnacion is a talented young player, good hitter and terrible defensive player. He's going to be a good player, probably as soon as next season. He's going to contribute to the success of the team down the stretch this season. But he's not a finished product. He's young and he has time to improve. This team was losing games due to its infield defense when Lopez and Encarnacion were playing every day. Narron isn't an idiot, he just values the defense and steady hand Aurilia has at third. And it isn't a terrible thing for a young player to learn that he has to keep working on ALL facets of his game once he reaches the major leagues.

... The bullpen is important. It's not sexy or fun, but it's important. This team was sinking like a stone a month ago due to a terrible bullpen. Since then, Wayne Krivsky has turned it from a weakness to a strength. Suddenly, it's a deep, versatile, battle-tested group. With 3 and 4 starters who are basically six-inning pitchers and no fifth starter, this team is going to need all those arms to produce. If Krivsky "overpaid" a little for bullpen help, I have no problem with that. He's trying to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are gone. They aren't coming back. If you want to talk about them, I'm sure there are very nice message boards for Washington Nationals fans. But most Reds fans would rather discuss the players who are here trying to WIN THE PENNANT. If you choose to leave RedsZone for NationalsZone, feel free to return when the playoffs start.

... Veteran players are GOOD things. Veteran teams win the World Series. Guys like Rich Aurilia, Scott Hatteberg, Royce Clayton and Eddie Guardado all play important roles on a team. Just because they're on the other side of 30 doesn't make them useless. It's not a coincidence that these guys are playing a lot and the Reds are having their best season in seven years. Everyone has a role. It takes 25 players to win. Everyone contributes in their own way. Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.

... The Reds aren't perfect. They aren't a finished product. Guess what? Neither is anyone else. The Mets' two best pitchers are (gasp) old and likely to tire down the stretch (it's already happening). The Cardinals are Pujols and a lot of question marks. There are no great teams in the National League. The Yankees need starting pitching and they have a $200 million payroll. The Red Sox are spending almost as much money and they need pitching too. The Tigers and Twins need offense and the White Sox need starting pitching. EVERYONE has holes in their team. But you try to get to the playoffs and WIN THE PENNANT.

... Wayne Krivsky will make bad moves. He may have already. Every GM has made bad moves. Get over it. At least Krivsky realizes the point is to WIN THE PENNANT and not to "collect chits."

... Finally, these next two months should be FUN. We're in the thick of the Central Division race and LEADING the Wild Card. We have a very real chance to WIN THE PENNANT. Get over the fact that the GM and manager aren't doing everything just the way you would and wrap your mind around the fact that this may very well be our first postseason appearance in 11 years. If you do, you might even realize these guys are doing something right.

RANDY IN INDY
08-01-2006, 10:40 AM
That's a good post. :beerme:

vaticanplum
08-01-2006, 10:42 AM
The bullpen is important. It's not sexy or fun, but it's important.

Um...A GOOD BULLPEN IS VERY SEXY.

registerthis
08-01-2006, 10:46 AM
I'm still a bit unclear as to what the Reds are TRYING TO DO.

redsmetz
08-01-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm still a bit unclear as to what the Reds are TRYING TO DO.

Put a team on the field to play championship baseball - seems simple enough, no?

BRM
08-01-2006, 10:49 AM
Feel better now?

top6
08-01-2006, 11:10 AM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

BRM
08-01-2006, 11:14 AM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.


Good post. Just because people are complaining about Clayton playing and EE not playing doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the pennant race.

top6
08-01-2006, 11:16 AM
Good post. Just because people are complaining about Clayton playing and EE not playing doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the pennant race.I think most people are enjoying the fact that it's August 1, and they still care enough about the Reds' season to post at all!

TRF
08-01-2006, 11:17 AM
So, since I can no longer post my opinion, would you let me know what my opinion is?

redsfan30
08-01-2006, 11:21 AM
I think the point of his original post was if you were in a coma for the last four months and just came out of it and came to Redszone to see how the Reds were doing, you'd come away thinking they were on the same level as the Royals.....not in a prime spot for a playoff spot.

Heath
08-01-2006, 11:22 AM
its a given talent to whine when arguably the best offensive player with exceptional range is benched in favor of a weak-hitting against righties at home and weak-hitting on the road who has cement Nikes.

Do I enjoy the pennant race? Abso-freaking-lutely.

Can I express my ideas of what I feel is wrong? Sure.

Can I express my ideas of what I like? Sure. Heck I'm one of about 4 people who liked the Kearns/Lopez trade.

I personally think its time to stop whining about whining. Enjoy the game.

dabvu2498
08-01-2006, 11:22 AM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.
It just seems that there are an infinte number of threads and posts criticizing (and thus defending) the moves of the GM and/or manager and certain players. After a while it turns into :deadhorse:.

No one is saying don't criticize Narron or Krivsky or any of the players, but after a while it does become tiresome (and it takes up alot of space on the board).

Until Narron finds a new/creative way to screw up a game, Krivsky makes another bad/good move, Dunn finds another way to strike out, Milton finds another way to give up a gopher, Clayton finds another way to be a bad SS, etc. etc., it's all been said before.

"Narron's an idiot." "EE should be playing everyday." "Milton's awful." "Clayton's terrible." "That trade is a desperate act." "Dunn strikes out too much." OVER AND OVER -- Doesn't make for much in the way of "intelligent" baseball conversation.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2006, 11:32 AM
Who is whining?


It's time to accept a few things and enjoy the PENNANT RACE ... .

I can enjoy the pennant race and question the decisions made by the front office and manager. The two aren't mutually exclusive.


... Royce Clayton is the starting shortstop. He's not the long-term answer and you may not believe he's the best option right now. Krivsky and Narron disagree.

Of course Krivsky believes he's the best option. He traded for him. There in lies the problem.


... He's the quarterback of the infield.

I guess that means Felipe Lopez is the QB of the Washingon infield.



... They're not juggling everything around with 50 games to go.

Oh, but they have been juggling everything around.



Get over it and support the guy.

Who is not supporting him? It's an internet message board. I will support him when I go to the game. He can't hear me call him a hack when I'm watching him on t.v., so he'll be okay. I don't think me thinking he's sub par and mentioning it to my wife, to the guys at the local pub, or an internet message board is effecting his satanic .666 OPS. I think maybe we need for more fans to support the team first, by actually going to the games, before we worry about Royce's feelings.


He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

I would hope they are all playing "hard". Is there someone that isn't?


... Rich Aurilia is going to play. A lot. And guess what? He's producing. Edwin Encarnacion will have his time. Right now, Aurilia is a huge part of the success this team is having. Along with a solid glove and productive bat, he's the vocal leader this team has lacked.

Edwin Encarnacion produces too. His time should be now to give insure we have a better a better chance of winning - NOW.


He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.


As opposed to....?



... Edwin Encarnacion is a talented young player, good hitter and terrible defensive player.

So he's a "talented young player", but "terrible defensive player"? Maybe you meant just "talented young hitter".



He's going to be a good player, probably as soon as next season.


He's a good player now.



He's going to contribute to the success of the team down the stretch this season. But he's not a finished product. He's young and he has time to improve. This team was losing games due to its infield defense when Lopez and Encarnacion were playing every day.


I seem to remember the team winning games with those two on the field. They actually were winning and more than they are now (before EE got hurt). This team will be losing games if they don't score runs. You don't take Lopez, Kearns, and Encarnacion out of the lineup and expect to keep producing runs. Those three have contributed to the Reds success (up to this point) as much as anyone else.


Narron isn't an idiot, he just values the defense and steady hand Aurilia has at third. And it isn't a terrible thing for a young player to learn that he has to keep working on ALL facets of his game once he reaches the major leagues.

Who doesn't value defense? Again, Encarnacion is as much responsible for the Reds success this year as Aurilia. Why now that the pressure is getting tight, as we come down the stretch, does Narron need to micro-manage and play favorites? And why can't EE and RA both play?



.. The bullpen is important.


So is an offense that continues to score runs.



It's not sexy or fun, but it's important.


Same with an offense that can score runs. But an offense that can score runs is sexy, I must say. It doesn't make it less important because it's more sexy, though.


This team was sinking like a stone a month ago due to a terrible bullpen. Since then, Wayne Krivsky has turned it from a weakness to a strength.

I'll give you Guardado. He has been superb, but most supported that decision and it came with practically no cost. But Majewski hasn't contributed to any success. In fact, they are winning in spite of the Majik man. And Bray, although filled with a ton of potential, he hasn't been blowing their socks of either. Any "success" the bullpen has had can be contributed to Guardado and coincidence - not Yan, not Bray, and definitely not Majewski. And since the break, they have a sweep of the Rockies and that's the only thing keeping them above .500. One sweep. Since then, we've played the same we've played all year - .500.




Suddenly, it's a deep, versatile, battle-tested group.

But that is sexy, right?



With 3 and 4 starters who are basically six-inning pitchers and no fifth starter, this team is going to need all those arms to produce.

We had this all year, not just now.


If Krivsky "overpaid" a little for bullpen help, I have no problem with that. He's trying to WIN THE PENNANT.


Then go out and land a stud for the rotation (if you are going to overpay).


... Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are gone. They aren't coming back. If you want to talk about them, I'm sure there are very nice message boards for Washington Nationals fans. But most Reds fans would rather discuss the players who are here trying to WIN THE PENNANT. If you choose to leave RedsZone for NationalsZone, feel free to return when the playoffs start. .

Uhhh, I'm not sure how to respond to this one.



... Veteran players are GOOD things. Veteran teams win the World Series. Guys like Rich Aurilia, Scott Hatteberg, Royce Clayton and Eddie Guardado all play important roles on a team. Just because they're on the other side of 30 doesn't make them useless. .


Sure, veteran players that are good, are "GOOD things".




It's not a coincidence that these guys are playing a lot and the Reds are having their best season in seven years. .


Please don't include Clayton. He hasn't contributed to any success. And like I said, EE, Lopez, and Kearns are as much responsible for where the Reds are right now as anyone.



Everyone has a role. It takes 25 players to win. Everyone contributes in their own way. .

Is that a line from Bull Durham?


Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.

Oh, but isn't it you that wants the young players like EE, who helped put the Reds into the position they are now in to now be pushed aside?



... Wayne Krivsky will make bad moves. He may have already. Every GM has made bad moves. Get over it. At least Krivsky realizes the point is to WIN THE PENNANT and not to "collect chits." .

And the point of an internet message board is to discuss things and oh, I don't know maybe call out a GM that has made a "bad move". What else is there to talk about? And what GM doesn't want to "WIN THE PENNANT"?


... Finally, these next two months should be FUN. We're in the thick of the Central Division race and LEADING the Wild Card. We have a very real chance to WIN THE PENNANT. Get over the fact that the GM and manager aren't doing everything just the way you would and wrap your mind around the fact that this may very well be our first postseason appearance in 11 years. If you do, you might even realize these guys are doing something right.


Of course it's fun. It's just most of us would like to see the manager put our beloved team in a position to win more games and he continually bucks the odds, throws caution to the wind, manages with his gut and heart

WINNING GAMES. That's more fun. And winning more games, puts you in a better position to WIN THE PENNANT.

PuffyPig
08-01-2006, 11:38 AM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

I think his point was that it gets a little tiring to start every game thread with "Why is Clayton playing SS?" or "Why is EE not in the lineup?"

Surely these questions don't need to be asked every game, and they are.

I'm a little surprised that a lot of posters can't seem to retain from game to game the fact that Clayton is the starting SS. Surely there can't be that much surprise when he's in the lineup day to day?

And if Clayton is batting 2nd (or leadoff) vs. a LH pitcher, perhaps check and see that he's got a .400 OBA vs. LH pitching before expressing disgust that such a poor hitter is batting at the top of the lineup.

After all, it may have taken a year or so, but lots of posters now understand that Aurilia's 1100 or so OPS vs. LH pitchers allows him to bat clean up vs. LH pitchers. And I realize that he sucks vs. RH pitchers, but I don't feel the need to question Narron (who's not reading these posts anyway) about why he's left in to bat cleanup (or even in the lineup for that mater) vs. a RH pitcher. After 100 or so times, I've learned to see it without reacting (even though I don't agree with it).

Chip R
08-01-2006, 11:41 AM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.

M2
08-01-2006, 11:44 AM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

Superior post.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2006, 11:45 AM
But yet a new post and thread was started to discuss it.

Like I have said before, there seems to be more posts and threads whining about the whining than there are of the actual whining itself.

If you even want to call it that. Whining.

Cyclone792
08-01-2006, 11:47 AM
Put a team on the field to play championship baseball - seems simple enough, no?

Hmmm ...

But how well are they really trying?

The 2006 Reds vividly remind me of another scenario I witnessed regularly while in undergrad.

A student in any particular class would brush off a midterm, not study for it, not prepare for it, then walks in to find out that he didn't do so well on the test. However, because the professor had a nice bone or three in their body, a curve would be applied to the midterm, and suddenly that not-so-good grade turns into a B for the student. Elated, the student proclaims that he did well on the test and that he's doing well in the class despite doing a poor job at actually learning any of the material.

The student is happy with the end result ... so why bother changing it? Not so fast.

A month later the student takes the final and applies the same approach to the final that he applied to the midterm. The professor curved the midterm, right, so he'll curve the final too and mediocrity and poor decision making skills (read: not studying) will be good enough again. This time, however, the professor is not so nice to apply the curve, and instead of receiving an acceptable grade, the student fails the test.

Now the student is wondering what he could have done to actually receive an acceptable grade on the final, but alas, it's too late. What's done is done, and the student ultimately failed. What never crossed the student's mind was utilizing the time between the midterm and the final to strategically make good decisions in preparing for the final. If he had done that, he likely would have received a solid grade on his own doing instead of relying on the professor's curve. But he didn't do it, and he failed. Oops.

Folks, the 2006 Reds are that student, the rest of the NL are that student's classmates, and lady luck is that student's professor.

The Reds to this point in the season have made a number of poor decisions, such as abusing Harang/Arroyo, benching EE, and giving way too much playing time to guys such as Williams, Womack, Mays, Clayton, Castro, etc. Our result so far on its face is mediocrity; a barely over .500 record and a below .500 pyt. record. But the rest of the NL is altogether weak, and lady luck has thus far provided a curve that allows us to be just a few games behind the division leader while also leading the wildcard.

Take advantage of that luck we've been given, but course correct and run away with the prize.

However, as far as I can see it, there's two roads they can walk down ...

They can continue treading down the same path they've been on all along this season by making a number of poor decisions and playing ~.500 ball. All along they'll roll the dice and take the risk that the rest of the NL will continue to linger in their same boat, and they'll look to lady luck to find an opening to the door of the playoffs.

Or, the Reds can start actively making better decisions and make better strides to winning more games during the final two months. They can elect to play their best players during the vast majority of the games, and then utilize their full roster to the best of their abilities to win as many games as possible. Doing so would mean giving our best right-handed hitter regular playing time and benching the offensive pit known as Royce Clayton, but hey, it takes an active initiative and better decision making skills to execute. Like a student who actively prepares for the final as best as possible and then has great odds for stomping the final, the Reds could make far better decisions which would greatly increase their odds on stomping the rest of the NL.

Me? I want the best decisions being made in the front office and on the field. I want the best players in the lineup playing every day on the field in the best possible outfit for run value, and I want our two main horses in the rotation prepped not to wear down and implode down the stretch due to season long abuse. When lady luck decides to stand in our way and deny us the curve, I want to give her a big swift kick and stroll right on by her.

But hey, you guys can do what you wish. If you're willing to accept bad decision making in the Reds front office with the hope that lady luck hands us the curve on our final, then by all means go ahead and accept it.

redsfan30
08-01-2006, 11:48 AM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.
Great summarization! It's not the criticsm itself that gets to me, it's the 3 pages to start the gamethread about how Narron should be fired because Clayton and Aurilia are playing.

It's not a surprise people!!!!!

BRM
08-01-2006, 11:53 AM
Excellent post Cyclone. :clap:

M2
08-01-2006, 11:54 AM
But yet a new post and thread was started to discuss it.

Like I have said before, there seems to be more posts and threads whining about the whining than there are of the actual whining itself.

If you even want to call it that. Whining.

I believe it was dubbed "metawhining" back in the 2004-5 offseason.

TOBTTReds
08-01-2006, 12:03 PM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.

I agree with all this pretty much. The one thing that kills everyone here, is that there is a maturing star sitting on the bench. It isn't like we are upset about playing Clayton instead of Castro or anything. To a lot of people like myself, it is a huge deal that one of the best hitters on your team is sitting on the bench. I also think he is a very good fielder, just had some trouble with some routine plays, but he makes more spectacular ones than he muffs routine ones.

But Celtic, where you said he is a terrible fielder. I whole heartidly disagree with that 100%.

osuceltic
08-01-2006, 12:10 PM
But Celtic, where you said he is a terrible fielder. I whole heartidly disagree with that 100%.
He was on pace for something like 45 errors when he was playing every day. That's a huge number and a huge problem. That's terrible. I think he's going to be good, but he's a young player and needs to improve defensively.

Defense and relief pitching always are drastically underrated by fans. If the Reds were out of the race, you could shrug off EE's errors and chalk them up to growing pains. But they're not out of the race. They can't afford to give away runs. Aurilia gives them a viable alternative. Forget moving Aurilia to second, Phillips to short and putting EE at third. It's just not going to happen. Can you imagine any team in contention completely changing its infield in August? It's just not realistic. Never mind the fact that Phillips is in his first full season and producing for the first time at the major league level and they don't want to screw him up. Or the fact that Aurilia would be a terrible defensive second baseman and Encarnacion would be a terrible defensive third baseman -- making the infield defense even worse.

Edwin is going to be a good big league player for a long time. He can play a valuable role this season and help this team get where it wants to go. But he's not entitled to a starting spot.

TRF
08-01-2006, 12:15 PM
And Royce freaking Clayton is?

with limited range, and a bat made out of a sea sponge.

give me a break.

TOBTTReds
08-01-2006, 12:19 PM
He was on pace for something like 45 errors when he was playing every day. That's a huge number and a huge problem. That's terrible. I think he's going to be good, but he's a young player and needs to improve defensively.

Defense and relief pitching always are drastically underrated by fans. If the Reds were out of the race, you could shrug off EE's errors and chalk them up to growing pains. But they're not out of the race. They can't afford to give away runs. Aurilia gives them a viable alternative. Forget moving Aurilia to second, Phillips to short and putting EE at third. It's just not going to happen. Can you imagine any team in contention completely changing its infield in August? It's just not realistic. Never mind the fact that Phillips is in his first full season and producing for the first time at the major league level and they don't want to screw him up. Or the fact that Aurilia would be a terrible defensive second baseman and Encarnacion would be a terrible defensive third baseman -- making the infield defense even worse.

Edwin is going to be a good big league player for a long time. He can play a valuable role this season and help this team get where it wants to go. But he's not entitled to a starting spot.

I agree with all that is bolded there.

ochre
08-01-2006, 12:20 PM
This might, perhaps, be the category winner at the 2006 international irony festival in montpelier, Vermont.

redsmetz
08-01-2006, 12:20 PM
I think the college student exam analogy doesn't work. First, the only curve in baseball is the one thrown by a pitcher (or hung if we're batting!). Second how is what Krivsky has done tantamount to not studying for finals. Frankly, given the timetable, if we want to use your analogy, Krivsky came into the class in the second quarter, had to play catch-up with the rest of the class. The fact that he's pulling in a B (not on the curve - we do have to play the games and we are where we are in the standings having played those games) on our merits. The fact is had we had this bullpen all season (which Krivsky mentioned yesterday), we'd be acing this course and have a substantial lead on the Cardinals in the division.

We're not perfect, but this FO is trying to putting a winning team on the field. After years of being a D student, I think I'm glad to see the student pulling down that B (of course, again, without the curve because such a concept doesn't exist in baseball).

Spring~Fields
08-01-2006, 12:20 PM
Defense and relief pitching always are drastically underrated by fans. If the Reds were out of the race, you could shrug off EE's errors and chalk them up to growing pains. But they're not out of the race. They can't afford to give away runs.

What about Narrons error's? Can he afford to give away run potential? Will he manage the new bullpen or starting staff any better with a team that could be scoring challenged the rest of the way?

I think that those of us that are passionate about the Reds have high hopes that the winning continues, but can readily see where it may not. I am not a big fan of making it to the playoffs by default, default meaning that the Reds are in the position that they are because of weak competition, it is not the same as winning with the superior talent, skill and great management tactics.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:22 PM
Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.


Irony is... that's exactly what will happen. It's the build 'em up to knock 'em back down mentality.

BRM
08-01-2006, 12:25 PM
I love all this talk about defense being a priority when the Reds have only one plus defender playing everyday. The fact that Clayton and Aurilia are considered to be defensive upgrades speaks volumes about how poor the team defense really is. As far as I'm concerned, the Reds still have question marks defensively at SS, 3B and CF.

Puffy
08-01-2006, 12:25 PM
I'd just like to point something out here - the Reds are currently 5 games over .500. If one were to extrapolate to a full 162 game season it comes out to approximately 85-77.

So we are not allowed to criticize a team on pace for an 85-77 win season just because the rest of the NL sucks this year? Hey the Reds are in a pennant race so lets overlook all the obvious flaws which lead them to be 85-77 and not ready to take the next step, cause HEY, we're in a pennant race so no bad thoughts allowed!

Look, normally when a team takes a step from low 70s wins to 85 wins the questions which need to be asked are how do we get over the hump. Thats where the Reds are - how do they get over the hump. What I see is a ton of people who have pennant fever on a team that has no realistic shot at contending for a world series title. None. Nada. Nunca. Even with the weak National League, say they get thru the NL, they would get swept in the WS and we'd still be looking at an 85 win team that needs to improve.

If people point out those parts which need to be improved - doesn't make them any less of a fan of the pennant race. Sure, its nice to be in meanigful games in August. Doesn't change the fact that this team has huge holes that are gonna need to be addressed. The National League sucking doesn't change that.

So how bout we quit whining at the whiners - this is all just another of the stupid optimists/pessimists crap we always go thru. Everybody is a fan, and everybody is different, so why can't we say Viva la difference, we're all rooting for the same team, and quit with the "quit your whining" crap.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:25 PM
Good post. Just because people are complaining about Clayton playing and EE not playing doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the pennant race.

Some people here do nothing BUT complain. It's becoming a difficult place to visit. The past few weeks I've only read the boards for breaking news stories. I'm about finished with the commentaries.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:27 PM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.


Voice of reason, thank you...

Cyclone792
08-01-2006, 12:28 PM
I think the college student exam analogy doesn't work. First, the only curve in baseball is the one thrown by a pitcher (or hung if we're batting!). Second how is what Krivsky has done tantamount to not studying for finals. Frankly, given the timetable, if we want to use your analogy, Krivsky came into the class in the second quarter, had to play catch-up with the rest of the class. The fact that he's pulling in a B (not on the curve - we do have to play the games and we are where we are in the standings having played those games) on our merits. The fact is had we had this bullpen all season (which Krivsky mentioned yesterday), we'd be acing this course and have a substantial lead on the Cardinals in the division.

We're not perfect, but this FO is trying to putting a winning team on the field. After years of being a D student, I think I'm glad to see the student pulling down that B (of course, again, without the curve because such a concept doesn't exist in baseball).

The analogy works plenty. More than plenty.

I don't care when Krivsky was hired; that's no excuse. When he was hired has absolutely zero bearing on being able to play the best guys we already have in the best possible fashion. So what if he arrived a week late. He still got the same study notes, and he's refused to look at them over the last five months. Making bad decisions with the 25 guys we currently have is ignoring the study notes.

Outside of one team, the NL as a whole is collectively putrid. That's the curve we've been fortunate enough to have handed to us at this point. As of August 1st, we have a team that's been outscored on the season, yet we have remarkable odds at making the playoffs.

That's right; we've been outscored, yet still may make the playoffs. That's our curve. Go back through baseball history and tell me how many times that's been done.

There is a heckuva curve with our competition this season, and refuting that is refuting historical data.

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2006, 12:31 PM
No one is forcing anyone to read anything.

If you don't like complaints, whining, disagreements, or arguments, you don't have to visit the board. You can go find an echo chamber somewhere and spend your time agreeing with your own ideas.

BRM
08-01-2006, 12:33 PM
Some people here do nothing BUT complain. It's becoming a difficult place to visit. The past few weeks I've only read the boards for breaking news stories. I'm about finished with the commentaries.

Honestly, I see more whining about the whining than whining about Narron/Krivsky/Clayton etc...

M2
08-01-2006, 12:34 PM
Some people here do nothing BUT complain. It's becoming a difficult place to visit. The past few weeks I've only read the boards for breaking news stories. I'm about finished with the commentaries.

Just an idea off the top of my head here: But you could post what you want to post and others can post what they want to post and if you disagree then you can hash it out (or not, your choice).

Demanding that others conform to what you want them to post is guaranteed to fail.

Cedric
08-01-2006, 12:34 PM
Whining about the whining about the whining.

My head is in full spin mood.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:36 PM
No one is forcing anyone to read anything.

If you don't like complaints, whining, disagreements, or arguments, you don't have to visit the board. You can go find an echo chamber somewhere and spend your time agreeing with your own ideas.


I don't think an echo chamber is quite necessary. A bit drastic and defensive suggestion really. This board is still excellent for breaking news stories, features on ballplayers in different newspapers, and the like. But this place wasn't this negative a few years ago -- even when the team was dead in July. As has been stated, visitors would think this team were the KC Royals at this point in the season.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:37 PM
Honestly, I see more whining about the whining than whining about Narron/Krivsky/Clayton etc...

Pete Rose colored glasses, maybe...

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:38 PM
Just an idea off the top of my head here: But you could post what you want to post and others can post what they want to post and if you disagree then you can hash it out (or not, your choice).

Demanding that others conform to what you want them to post is guaranteed to fail.

Who's demanding? I'm simply filtering.

BRM
08-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Pete Rose colored glasses, maybe...

I guess I just don't get worked up over it. People will post that they don't like EE riding the pine. Others will post that they don't like people whining about EE riding the pine. It's a message board. It's not worth getting aggravated over.

Reds1
08-01-2006, 12:42 PM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.

I like the post and I think Chip nailed it on the head. I feel like I can hardly make a positive comment on RA or say anything about EE defense without getting blasted, but it's all in good fun. :) I think the original post is the same thinking at the mgmt of the Reds. RA and EE are both doing well. We want a new SS, but it's not happening this year. This was just a nice summary of our current situation. We got a shot! This NL leauge is not that strong. In AL we would be sellers, but we are in the NL so all I can say is beat those Dodgers and knocke them out.

Go reds

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2006, 12:43 PM
I don't think an echo chamber is quite necessary. A bit drastic and defensive suggestion really. This board is still excellent for breaking news stories, features on ballplayers in different newspapers, and the like. But this place wasn't this negative a few years ago -- even when the team was dead in July. As has been stated, visitors would think this team were the KC Royals at this point in the season.

Why does it bother you so much?

You know, you can still read all the features and breaking news without reading all those negative comments.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:44 PM
I guess I just don't get worked up over it. People will post that they don't like EE riding the pine. Others will post that they don't like people whining about EE riding the pine. It's a message board. It's not worth getting aggravated over.

That's fair. It's just this: is anyone HAVING FUN watching this team this season? The past few seasons haven't been fun for me. I haven't been able to stomach much that they've done since, probably, the 1999 season. Sure, there have been nights this summer when I wanted to bury my head alongside Eric Milton's and Jerry Narron's in the sand. But for a team that no one thought would be standing at this point in the season, they've got to be doing some things the right way. There's been so much negativity about this team lately, you'd think you were watching the 2001 or 2002 teams.

CTA513
08-01-2006, 12:46 PM
A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

:clap:



Honestly, I see more whining about the whining than whining about Narron/Krivsky/Clayton etc...

:beerme:

REDREAD
08-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Frankly, I'm getting tired of the constant complaints about "beating a dead horse" or the "tone of the board". 99% of the threads tell you exactly what the topic of the thread is going to be.

So if you're tired about reading about Clayton, Dunn, or Marty, Why open the thread? If you start reading a thread and IN YOUR OPINION it's in dead horse territory, why not just leave the thread?

Instead we have people complaining to the mods. For example, last week we had a Marty thread that was about 12 pages long that got locked. I'm assuming that was because some mod thought it was a dead horse. Well, there was obviously plenty of people interested in talking about it if the thread was that long. Why not just let the thread run its course? It will eventually fall off the first page. Instead, the mods, in an attempt to try to make everyone happy (which is understandable and commendable) listen to the whiners.

Cedric
08-01-2006, 12:50 PM
Frankly, I'm getting tired of the constant complaints about "beating a dead horse" or the "tone of the board". 99% of the threads tell you exactly what the topic of the thread is going to be.

So if you're tired about reading about Clayton, Dunn, or Marty, Why open the thread? If you start reading a thread and IN YOUR OPINION it's in dead horse territory, why not just leave the thread?

Instead we have people complaining to the mods. For example, last week we had a Marty thread that was about 12 pages long that got locked. I'm assuming that was because some mod thought it was a dead horse. Well, there was obviously plenty of people interested in talking about it if the thread was that long. Why not just let the thread run its course? It will eventually fall off the first page. Instead, the mods, in an attempt to try to make everyone happy (which is understandable and commendable) listen to the whiners.

Whiners? It's a game thread where some people might actually wanna follow the game instead of hearing how Royce Clayton is a evil, evil man for two hours.

Nobody cares if someone wants to make their views on a certain player or manager known, but does it really need to be repeated by the same people a hundred times?

And that's not because I disagree with people. I don't want Royce Clayton starting or Edwin not playing. But for the sake of the board it might be best if people refrained from posting the same things over and over and over.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 12:53 PM
Why does it bother you so much?

You know, you can still read all the features and breaking news without reading all those negative comments.

I guess it bothers me because we are watching something this season that so many other sports fans don't have the luxury to see. When's the last time a Pirates fan looked at the standings and got excited? When will the Orioles fans get anything but frustration? What about those Phillies?

We're watching a team win games when, ultimately, people thought they'd be the embarassment of the NL Central. Sure, some of the players' stats aren't great. And Narron's decision-making could be better. But you'd think the Reds were having a disastrous season like the Cubs.

dabvu2498
08-01-2006, 12:57 PM
It's a game thread where some people might actually wanna follow the game instead of hearing how Royce Clayton is a evil, evil man for two hours.
Agreed... that's where the "whining" (for lack of a better word) really sticks out.

REDREAD
08-01-2006, 12:59 PM
Whiners? It's a game thread where some people might actually wanna follow the game instead of hearing how Royce Clayton is a evil, evil man for two hours.

Nobody cares if someone wants to make their views on a certain player or manager known, but does it really need to be repeated by the same people a hundred times?


But in a game thread, you can often read the first sentence of a post and make a good guess about what the rest of the post is going to cover. If you don't like it, move on. If you see Poster A and Poster B arguing over a deadhorse topic, why not just skip their posts for a few pages? That's what I do.

There's no rule that says you have to read every single post in a gamethread.

Instead, we get 12 posters complaining about someone pointing out that Narron screwed up again, even though it's a new screwup.

Perhaps we do need a seperate "sunshine" game thread. To me, it would be incredibly boring, but maybe it would help some people enjoy the board more.

dabvu2498
08-01-2006, 12:59 PM
What about those Phillies?

I agree with you 100%, but those Phillies were eliminated on the last day of the season last year and were only 2 games behing the Bravos.

ochre
08-01-2006, 01:00 PM
But this place wasn't this negative a few years ago -- even when the team was dead in July.
In the rock-paper-scissors game of fan interest, Apathy beats negativity.

Puffy
08-01-2006, 01:04 PM
In the rock-paper-scissors game of fan interest, Apathy beats negativity.

I still believe rock destroys paper. I mean, its a freakin rock.

CTA513
08-01-2006, 01:05 PM
MLB Gameday gives you updates without all the complaining and whining.

:eek:

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2006, 01:05 PM
I guess it bothers me because we are watching something this season that so many other sports fans don't have the luxury to see. When's the last time a Pirates fan looked at the standings and got excited? When will the Orioles fans get anything but frustration? What about those Phillies?

We're watching a team win games when, ultimately, people thought they'd be the embarassment of the NL Central. Sure, some of the players' stats aren't great. And Narron's decision-making could be better. But you'd think the Reds were having a disastrous season like the Cubs.

Many of us, including myself, thought this was a .500 team, but with a little luck they could win a few more.

Currently, they are 5 games over .500 at 55-50 and on pace for 85-77. They have been outscored by 13 runs, meaning they should be 51-54 right now (-3), but for whatever reason they are playing 4 games over their Pythag. That is okay. So, it's safe to declare that this team is what many of us expected going into the season - 500-ish. What we didn't expect, however, was that the rest of the league (minus the Mets) would suck it up so badly. So, for many of us, the season can loosely be defined a success to this point, but only because the rest of the league has made it that way.

I guess what we have here are realists and dreamers and that's okay that there are realists and dreamers. It's just that the dreamers don't want the realists to mention any real facts because it may ruin the great dream they are having.

realreds1
08-01-2006, 01:06 PM
I agree with you 100%, but those Phillies were eliminated on the last day of the season last year and were only 2 games behing the Bravos.

Gotcha. I was thinking more about this season's Phillies. That's gotta be a hard season to watch; it started out fairly promising and dropped right off the table.


In the rock-paper-scissors game of fan interest, Apathy beats negativity.

Oh yeah, I remember the ghost town game threads last September. And, well, August of last year at times, too.

M2
08-01-2006, 01:12 PM
Who's demanding? I'm simply filtering.

No, you're hectoring.

CougarQuest
08-01-2006, 01:19 PM
Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!!
I think this statement is the best example of the conflict.

One side looks at it and says "YEAH! You nailed it".

The other side looks at it and says "What? You not even close."

realreds1
08-01-2006, 01:20 PM
Many of us, including myself, thought this was a .500 team, but with a little luck they could win a few more.

Currently, they are 5 games over .500 at 55-50 and on pace for 85-77. They have been outscored by 13 runs, meaning they should be 51-54 right now (-3), but for whatever reason they are playing 4 games over their Pythag. That is okay. So, it's safe to declare that this team is what many of us expected going into the season - 500-ish. What we didn't expect, however, was that the rest of the league (minus the Mets) would suck it up so badly. So, for many of us, the season can loosely be defined a success to this point, but only because the rest of the league has made it that way.

I guess what we have here are realists and dreamers and that's okay that there are realists and dreamers. It's just that the dreamers don't want the realists to mention any real facts because it may ruin the great dream they are having.

Ok, great points. I'm not going to say that I've agreed with every decision the front office has made, what decisions/gaffes Narron has made, what non-decisions Clayton has made (see: pop-up, Milwaukee), etc.

On the other hand, I am going to argue that there are more positives to this team than there were negatives at the beginning of the season. I didn't think this team stood a tremendous chance at the beginning - even though I was there for opening day, watching alongside the other people who sat through the weather that day.

There are still flaws here, and you can find them without digging too deeply in the infield dirt... However, imagine where this team would be today with Tony Womack starting at 2B and Rick White and Chris Hammond eating up BP innings (and other things :))?

I just wish people would be a bit more objective - both negatively and positively - in this analysis. There are people on this board who know a lot about what they're discussing with great statistical input and can present it in a way that doesn't make you wanna reach for the vodka. I'd prefer more of that.

redsmetz
08-01-2006, 01:22 PM
Outside of one team, the NL as a whole is collectively putrid. That's the curve we've been fortunate enough to have handed to us at this point. As of August 1st, we have a team that's been outscored on the season, yet we have remarkable odds at making the playoffs.

That's right; we've been outscored, yet still may make the playoffs. That's our curve. Go back through baseball history and tell me how many times that's been done.

There is a heckuva curve with our competition this season, and refuting that is refuting historical data.

Call it a curve if you want, it's the reality we're playing in. If the NL is AAAA this year, it's still a major league and it's champion will be playing in the World Series.

You take what you get. I'm sick to death of all the whining on this board about who's playing when and what idiots the FO and JN are and you wonder if those who whine about it all the time get any joy out of the game whatsoever. And think about that. It's a stinking game, a small respite from a world that has far bigger troubles than whether my team or any team wins a championship or even a game. I'll take the small bit of joy this season is giving me.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2006, 01:41 PM
There are still flaws here, and you can find them without digging too deeply in the infield dirt... However, imagine where this team would be today with Tony Womack starting at 2B and Rick White and Chris Hammond eating up BP innings (and other things :))?

But we may still have a few Womack's and Rick White's on this roster and many of us would love nothing more than to see those players removed from the roster or at least from the starting lineup, so that the team that is sent out there presents itself with the best chance of winning day in and day out.

We should probably have more than 55 wins right now. Why not question why?

All the recent success that everyone attributes to the roster shuffling of Krivsky wouldn't even be evident right now if Adam Dunn were not on fire for that stretch. When he cools off, there are many that are worried where the offense is going to come from, including me.

Cyclone792
08-01-2006, 01:43 PM
Call it a curve if you want, it's the reality we're playing in. If the NL is AAAA this year, it's still a major league and it's champion will be playing in the World Series.

You take what you get. I'm sick to death of all the whining on this board about who's playing when and what idiots the FO and JN are and you wonder if those who whine about it all the time get any joy out of the game whatsoever. And think about that. It's a stinking game, a small respite from a world that has far bigger troubles than whether my team or any team wins a championship or even a game. I'll take the small bit of joy this season is giving me.

I've thought about - and enjoyed thoroughly - all the joy I've gotten out of this team quite a bit. I've enjoyed it each of the 23 games I've already been to in person. I've enjoyed it every freakin' game I've watched and/or listened to on the radio. I'll be thinking about that joy during this homestand when I'll be down there as much as possible. I'll be thinking about that joy on my flight to Philadelphia in 10 days so I can see this team play meaningful August games on the road.

But hey, if people want to say that I'm not getting any joy out of this team, then go ahead. You'll be wrong, but I don't care.

Am I glad we've had some incredible luck to be where we're at on August 1st? You bet. Do I want to take advantage of it fully and see the Reds play the best possible team from this point forward to ensure the highest odds of a postseason appearance? You bet.

But when I look out and see such extreme cases of mismanagement, such as our best right-handed hitter sitting on the bench or a flat terrible player receiving regular playing time, I'm recognizing the organization's colossal failure to put the best possible team on the field.

We've taken advantage of four months of beautiful luck, however, there's no guarantee that beautiful luck will continue. Is it so darn hard to ask the Reds' management to play the best guys they can possibly play so we can thrash the rest of the NL during these final two months in order to help reach - and win in - the postseason?

Like I said originally, if you're content with relying on the curve of lady luck and the rest of the NL continuing to stink up the joint, then have fun.

I want nothing to do with relying on a curve of luck. I want the best possible team on the field night after night so the luck needed is minimal.

Highlifeman21
08-01-2006, 01:53 PM
I'll be thinking about that joy on my flight to Philadelphia in 10 days so I can see this team play meaningful August games on the road.

And the great part about that is that the Phillies are in rebuild mode. No Abreu. No Lidle. No Cormier. No David Bell. Well, that last one is actually a good thing for the Phillies...

There are 3 people on the Phillies that stand in our way of a sweep for August 11, 12, 13 and they are Ryan Howard, Chase Utley and Brett Myers.

Those are the only 3 Phillies that should and do scare me. Utley's riding his current 32 game hitting streak, Ryan Howard is a freakish manchild that produces an OPS just north of Adam Dunn (.977 to .957 respectively) and Brett Myers has a respectable 3.57 ERA on the year while batters are only hitting .255 off him on the year. Those 3 make me think we can't comfortably look ahead to a sweep, not to mention we have no idea who's gonna take the hill for us those 3 nights. If those names are Milton, Lohse and Ramirez, might as well just experience a better time in Philly those nights, b/c I don't think I'm alone on this board in feeling that we don't have a great % chance to win with any of those 3 on the mound. Harang and Arroyo are one thing, the rest of the rotation, I'll take a pass.

Here's to meaningful Reds baseball on the road in August, hopefully coming to a city near you!

:beerme:

realreds1
08-01-2006, 02:00 PM
We should probably have more than 55 wins right now. Why not question why?

My argument isn't so much in questioning why. I think everyone is seeking answers for some of the decisions that have been made this season. From the games I've watched, I (and I'm sure you and lots of others, too) can count at least a half-dozen poor managerial decisions or poor plays that outright cost this team victories. With better decisions and less poor play, we're likely sitting in first place with a couple games up on the Cardinals.

I thought both games over the weekend could have been won with better decisions; I'd love to have seen Narron pull Germano before Hall came to the plate Saturday, and I think Castro should have been pinch-hit for in the top of the 9th with the Reds threatening on Sunday. Frankly, I'd like to have seen this team under the guidance of a more knowledgeable manager this season. But that's all hindsight at this point.

My concern is that the criticisms of some players, staff, and even broadcasters are getting way out-of-hand. It seems like the arguments are becoming less fact-based and even-tempered ... verging into more pretentious and irascible radio call-in show material: "Royce Clayton is the spawn of Predator, Rich Aurilia has Narron's manhood in a vice, Gapper must die, etc."

RANDY IN INDY
08-01-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by realreds1: My concern is that the criticisms of some players, staff, and even broadcasters are getting way out-of-hand. It seems like the arguments are becoming less fact-based and even-tempered ... verging into more pretentious and irascible radio call-in show material: "Royce Clayton is the spawn of Predator, Rich Aurilia has Narron's manhood in a vice, Gapper must die, etc."

:beerme:

Highlifeman21
08-01-2006, 03:03 PM
If you don't like the curve/exam analogy (even though it was very accurate), try this one on for size....

For all you cooking fans out there...

Each player on the Reds roster is an ingredient, on all rosters, at all levels. Jerry Narron is the chef. What Jerry Narron serves to us on a platter is the result of his ingredients, or his recipe.

There are many recipes Narron's offered us fans so far this year, using various ingredients. The thing you have to remember about recipes is that 1 will taste great to me, but horrible to you. The recipe I may love, you may hate. So far the recipes served by Narron have left bad tastes in my mouth.

I believe right now, Wayne Krivsky has stocked Jerry Narron's kitchen full of ingredients to make a gourmet dish, fitting of a playoff berth. For whatever reason, Jerry Narron refuses to use his ingredients to yield the most delicious dish we've tasted since 1995. Narron could easily cook us a 5 star meal with these ingredients, yet leaves us with something off a fast food dollar menu.

The ingredients are all there. Krivsky's stocked the kitchen. Now it's Narron's job to use each ingredient to the best of its given ability.

redsmetz
08-01-2006, 03:13 PM
Highlifeman21, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I still believe that both Kriv and Narron are trying to place this team in the offseason. Some things have worked, some have not. Mistakes have been made and, yes, we have gotten lucky sometimes. That's the nature of the game. I think I'll enjoy this ride which has been fairly unexpected (I think we both agree on that) and we'll see how it comes out. But I'm not settling for fast food instead of gourmet. I'm settling for a team that is playing better than any of us expected and whose chances are better than we have right to expect.

Likewise, we've gotten here without giving up any of our top prospects and I don't think we've had a significant loss on our offense with the loss of Kearns and Lopez.

traderumor
08-01-2006, 03:26 PM
I appreciate what osucelt is trying to say as well as those who are playing the "well, this is a whining thread about whining." It comes down to balance, and I don't see yahooing every thing management does as beneficial, but I also don't see deadpanning the day to day minutiae in devil's advocate fashion entirely enjoyable, either. A little bit of both from all posters seems to make this place the most pleasureable place to discuss our favorite team. But when fault is found by the same roster of posters with the predominance of moves and no fault is found by the same roster of posters with the predominance of moves, then it just becomes a battle of Marty Brenneman vs. George Grande, which most of us would prefer neither :evil:

Highlifeman21
08-01-2006, 03:39 PM
Highlifeman21, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I still believe that both Kriv and Narron are trying to place this team in the offseason. Some things have worked, some have not. Mistakes have been made and, yes, we have gotten lucky sometimes. That's the nature of the game. I think I'll enjoy this ride which has been fairly unexpected (I think we both agree on that) and we'll see how it comes out. But I'm not settling for fast food instead of gourmet. I'm settling for a team that is playing better than any of us expected and whose chances are better than we have right to expect.

Likewise, we've gotten here without giving up any of our top prospects and I don't think we've had a significant loss on our offense with the loss of Kearns and Lopez.


My point is this team has won in spite of Jerry Narron. Wayne Krivsky I think has gone above and beyond what any of us dreamed could happen with what we had exiting the 2005 campaign. Krivsky has improved Narron's rotation and bullpen, while maybe only sacrificing a downgrade @ SS. That's very significant. What is troubling, is Narron's inability to play his best players. If you want another analogy, we have a BMW (EE) that Narron leaves in the garage for lazy Sundays (PH PAs at best for EE) in place of an old, beat up Chevy Nova (Aurilia) that he drives almost everyday.

I eagerly anticipate to see what stays and what goes in the offseason per moves via Krivsky. I think Krivsky has given Narron a team that can win in 2006 going forward, but for whatever reason Narron refuses to put his best team on the field.

I'm enjoying the ride so far, but when I know we should have a command of the WC and we don't due to managerial moves, I'm troubled by the future of this franchise. Yes, we are playing a little above our heads, but that's only due to what we have playing everyday, ie Aurilia and Clayton, when it should be Freel and EE.

I'm glad we're leading the WC as of 8/1. I just know we could have a bigger lead and maybe even have the division if our manager put our best lineup on the field.

Wishful thinking, I guess.

Eric_Davis
08-01-2006, 03:58 PM
Hear! Hear!

KronoRed
08-01-2006, 04:02 PM
So, since I can no longer post my opinion, would you let me know what my opinion is?
Yeah, can I get what I'm supposed to post emailed to me? it would help things along

;)

Heath
08-01-2006, 04:15 PM
Yeah, can I get what I'm supposed to post emailed to me? it would help things along

;)


Just don't post. You'd still be the post leader 5 years from now.

:D

KronoRed
08-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Just don't post. :D
Blasphemy

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2006, 04:24 PM
I guess it bothers me because we are watching something this season that so many other sports fans don't have the luxury to see. When's the last time a Pirates fan looked at the standings and got excited? When will the Orioles fans get anything but frustration? What about those Phillies?

We're watching a team win games when, ultimately, people thought they'd be the embarassment of the NL Central. Sure, some of the players' stats aren't great. And Narron's decision-making could be better. But you'd think the Reds were having a disastrous season like the Cubs.

The thing is, the Reds were in somewhat similar situations in many of the past 5 seasons. They've been in contention as late as July in some years, only to fall flat on their faces. The FO seems to give a half-effort and bring in some grizzled veterans with playoff experience or pitchers with some upside and a ton of warts, and then they shrug when everything falls apart.

I'm not able to get excited about moves with limited upside. Granted, sometimes I'm wrong -- Arroyo surpassed all expectations, and Guardado has been excellent thusfar. But I've also seen plenty of moves like that that backfire and leave the Reds 10 games under .500 by the end of August.

GAC
08-01-2006, 04:53 PM
I believe what he is trying to say is that the criticism on here is getting into beating a dead horse territory. Do we need 3 pages in the game thread every night criticizing the makeup of the starting lineup? I want Encarnacion starting as much as anyone but I don't feel the need to make 1,000 posts about it. Do I think Jerry Narron is doing the right thing? No, but I don't feel the need to be hypercritical about him. We have a tendancy to be extremely critical of these people when they are not performing well. We've gone through this with Jr, Casey, Dunn, etc. Like the last line at the bottom of the page says, "It's fine to be critical here... (b)ut let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please."

No one's telling you you can't post your opinion but show some restraint. At the beginning of the season if someone had told me that come August 1 the Reds would be over .500 and leading the wild card, I would have been ecstatic. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they could be doing a lot worse - see every season since 2001. Enjoy the ride, don't mope because it's a little bumpy.

"Come on in Boys, the waters fine!"

http://www.filmhai.de/kino/kinoplakat/bilder_0007/brother_where_are_thou/gallery1/o_brother_001.jpg

Gopher Everett? :lol:

http://norbizness.com/archives/gophereverett.jpg

Matt700wlw
08-01-2006, 04:54 PM
It's time to accept a few things and enjoy the PENNANT RACE ...

... Royce Clayton is the starting shortstop. He's not the long-term answer and you may not believe he's the best option right now. Krivsky and Narron disagree. He's the quarterback of the infield. They're not juggling everything around with 50 games to go. Get over it and support the guy. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Rich Aurilia is going to play. A lot. And guess what? He's producing. Edwin Encarnacion will have his time. Right now, Aurilia is a huge part of the success this team is having. Along with a solid glove and productive bat, he's the vocal leader this team has lacked. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Edwin Encarnacion is a talented young player, good hitter and terrible defensive player. He's going to be a good player, probably as soon as next season. He's going to contribute to the success of the team down the stretch this season. But he's not a finished product. He's young and he has time to improve. This team was losing games due to its infield defense when Lopez and Encarnacion were playing every day. Narron isn't an idiot, he just values the defense and steady hand Aurilia has at third. And it isn't a terrible thing for a young player to learn that he has to keep working on ALL facets of his game once he reaches the major leagues.

... The bullpen is important. It's not sexy or fun, but it's important. This team was sinking like a stone a month ago due to a terrible bullpen. Since then, Wayne Krivsky has turned it from a weakness to a strength. Suddenly, it's a deep, versatile, battle-tested group. With 3 and 4 starters who are basically six-inning pitchers and no fifth starter, this team is going to need all those arms to produce. If Krivsky "overpaid" a little for bullpen help, I have no problem with that. He's trying to WIN THE PENNANT.

... Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are gone. They aren't coming back. If you want to talk about them, I'm sure there are very nice message boards for Washington Nationals fans. But most Reds fans would rather discuss the players who are here trying to WIN THE PENNANT. If you choose to leave RedsZone for NationalsZone, feel free to return when the playoffs start.

... Veteran players are GOOD things. Veteran teams win the World Series. Guys like Rich Aurilia, Scott Hatteberg, Royce Clayton and Eddie Guardado all play important roles on a team. Just because they're on the other side of 30 doesn't make them useless. It's not a coincidence that these guys are playing a lot and the Reds are having their best season in seven years. Everyone has a role. It takes 25 players to win. Everyone contributes in their own way. Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.

... The Reds aren't perfect. They aren't a finished product. Guess what? Neither is anyone else. The Mets' two best pitchers are (gasp) old and likely to tire down the stretch (it's already happening). The Cardinals are Pujols and a lot of question marks. There are no great teams in the National League. The Yankees need starting pitching and they have a $200 million payroll. The Red Sox are spending almost as much money and they need pitching too. The Tigers and Twins need offense and the White Sox need starting pitching. EVERYONE has holes in their team. But you try to get to the playoffs and WIN THE PENNANT.

... Wayne Krivsky will make bad moves. He may have already. Every GM has made bad moves. Get over it. At least Krivsky realizes the point is to WIN THE PENNANT and not to "collect chits."

... Finally, these next two months should be FUN. We're in the thick of the Central Division race and LEADING the Wild Card. We have a very real chance to WIN THE PENNANT. Get over the fact that the GM and manager aren't doing everything just the way you would and wrap your mind around the fact that this may very well be our first postseason appearance in 11 years. If you do, you might even realize these guys are doing something right.

How dare you put things into perspective ;)

D-Man
08-01-2006, 06:10 PM
We've taken advantage of four months of beautiful luck, however, there's no guarantee that beautiful luck will continue. . . .

Like I said originally, if you're content with relying on the curve of lady luck and the rest of the NL continuing to stink up the joint, then have fun.

I want nothing to do with relying on a curve of luck. I want the best possible team on the field night after night so the luck needed is minimal.

I think you're missing that BIG white elephant over there in the corner. Witness:

*Reds/Opponents Equivalent Runs:
558/530

*Equivalent Runs Predicted Wins/Losses (Actual Wins/Losses):
55-50 (55-50)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/standings.php

*Reds Actual Runs v. Runs Created
521 v. 575

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statistics/Team/playerstats?team=cin&seasonYear=2006&seasonType=2&type=exp&pagetype=batting

*Reds NL rank in OPS and runs scored:
1st in OPS, 5th in runs scored

No smoke and mirrors here, just an historically inefficient offense. And for the record, the Reds sport the 3rd best equivalent runs winning % in the NL, better than the Cards, and 1/2 a game worse than the Padres.

Cyclone792
08-01-2006, 06:20 PM
I think you're missing that BIG white elephant over there in the corner. Witness:

*Reds/Opponents Equivalent Runs:
558/530

*Equivalent Runs Predicted Wins/Losses (Actual Wins/Losses):
55-50 (55-50)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/standings.php

*Reds Actual Runs v. Runs Created
521 v. 575

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statistics/Team/playerstats?team=cin&seasonYear=2006&seasonType=2&type=exp&pagetype=batting

*Reds NL rank in OPS and runs scored:
1st in OPS, 5th in runs scored

No smoke and mirrors here, just an historically inefficient offense. And for the record, the Reds sport the 3rd best equivalent runs winning % in the NL, better than the Cards, and 1/2 a game worse than the Padres.

FWIW, the lady luck comments are in regards to the rest of the NL being putrid, allowing us to even be in a race. Under normal league circumstances, 55-50 just won't cut it, nor will our run value differentials.

But anyhow, you've actually just proved one more deficiency of Narron.

It's a historically inefficient offense, and I've known that. It's stacked in home runs and walks - 2nd in home runs and 2nd in walks in the majors - but lacks other types of offense. We're 19th in the majors in hits, and 12th in the majors in doubles.

What can Encarnacion certainly do better than anyone else on our roster? Hit the two bagger. He already has 37 doubles in only 485 career plate appearances, and that includes last season when he "struggled" a bit at the plate.

Get more doubles into our lineup (i.e. get Encarnacion into the lineup), and that cleans up some of the offensive inefficiencies, leading to even more runs scored.

37red
08-01-2006, 06:53 PM
I just read tonights game page and just burst out laughing at the beginning posts. You could just copy and paste the opening pages from almost any night and no one would even know, it's almost funny.... Then we could go on to page 3 and go on with the game.

Ltlabner
08-01-2006, 07:44 PM
Just got home and waded through this mess.

I find it humerous that once someone says "do we have to be so negative" that he's instantly jumped on and told not to read the posts, that he's trying to controll what others think, and is "a dreamer". They are instantly accused of ignoring all the problems and saying that others shouldn't post/discuss any of those problems. But it is possible to be positive AND objective at the same time.

Of course, if your opinion is that it's only worth pointing out for the billionth time that RA is old, EE should be playing and Narron is a bafoon, that is beyond reproach and top notch baseball analysis.

It's intresting that those here who post real analysis and data (Cyclones, SteelSD, M2, etc) are usually not included in the "negative crowd" discussions. Yet they are usaully posting something that points out a flaw or weekness or shortcomming. I wonder why their data laden analysis is respected, even when dissagreed with and is usually never considered part of the "Narron Sucks" brigade? Could it possibly be because their anyalsis is deep, well thought out, insightfull and thought provoking? Could it be because they force us to think even when their comments piss us off, or fly in the face of our beliefs? Could it be because they are adding something to the conversation besides "XYZ is horrible" and "I want DanO back"?

I'm not saying they are always right, because they aren't, but they are often posting things that are constructivley critical of the Reds yet people aren't tired of their posts......that tells me the issue isn't people want to squelch anything negative.

So IMO the issue is they don't want to hear the same inanne, devoid of substance, negative comments over and over and over and over and over. And for a forum that aims to be a "cut above" the other unmoderated forums, I don't think that is a bad thing.

flyer85
08-01-2006, 09:49 PM
That Clayton feller sher is good

CTA513
08-01-2006, 10:18 PM
That Clayton feller sher is good

:beerme:

flyer85
08-01-2006, 10:30 PM
BTW, the timing of this thread was impeccable.

KoryMac5
08-02-2006, 06:05 PM
You do see a lot of threads that reek of negativity. I read them because I enjoy a good debate, however as many have pointed out they do grow very tiresome. I know from time to time myself and others have posted that there is a need for another section of Redszone. Where people can talk smack about players, owners, GM's, and other teams. I think it would be very cool and give people a place to vent.