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TRF
08-01-2006, 03:40 PM
Not everyone gets a Justin Verlander. Ok, it seems the entire AL has a rookie pitcher vying for the Cy Young, but usually young pitchers take their lumps.

Elizardo Ramirez is 23 years old. He's posting numbers similar to Aaron Harang at age 26, His first full season in a Reds uniform. They both currently have similar velocity on their FB's.

What is the next step for EZ? beyond the numbers how do they match up as far as what pitches they throw, movement, etc. What does The Lizard lack right now that might help him become more successful?His record belies how well he has pitched, but he's had a few stinkers tossed in too. Does he lack a pitch? movement?

Right now I would be comfortable with Harang, Arroyo and Ramirez as starter 1-3 next year.


Thoughts?

Highlifeman21
08-01-2006, 03:46 PM
I'm not sold on Elizardo quite yet. Brandon Claussen put up respectable numbers last year, where's he at this year?

If I had to pick a #3 pitcher, for better or worse, Elizardo Ramirez would be thy name.

dougdirt
08-01-2006, 03:47 PM
I dont think Ramirez can become what Aaron is, simply becuase Aaron is just a much larger man. Ramirez is a small guy, but height and weight. Aaron is much larger, and therefor his 92-93 MPH fastball gets to the batter quicker than Ramirezs does. Harang also has that slider, that is a very good out pitch when he needs it to be.
I am a big fan of Ramirez, but his size worries me in that he tends to break down a little bit after 6 innings, or even in the 6th at time. His stamina isnt the best ever due to his size. I like his control and his FB. I think his upside is that of a #3/4 guy, but there is nothing wrong with that. I dont think he lacks pitches, or movement. He actually gets pretty good movement on his pitches.
I like where he is heading with things though, he has had 10/16 quality starts, and I would take that every year from a guy. That projects to over 20 in a full season. I think with Harang, Arroyo and Ramirez in the rotation, in a short series the Reds have a good shot at winning in the post season.

Ravenlord
08-01-2006, 03:55 PM
EZ isn't as tall as Aaron, nor does he have his fastball movement.

Harang had a minor league K rate just over 8 and a H rate of 8.6.
EZ had a minor league K rate of 6.6 and a H rate of 9.33.

EZ's peak (assuming he learns to not catch so much plate and refine his change) is somewhere in the area of Cory Lidle, otherwise he'll end up being something like Jeff Suppan without the innings.

RedlegJake
08-01-2006, 03:55 PM
Ramirez seems to be better at the mental aspect of pitching - keeps his cool, shows ability to consistently command his repertoire, mixes things up/speeds/location. I think it is a very reasonable expectation for Elizardo to be a solid #3 starter for a long time. Guys with average big league stuff, like Ramirez, can flourish if they can command their stuff. I'm really encouraged. He isn't going to be an ace, I don't think, but he can become a pitcher in the next rank.

As for Claussen, health may be an issue, his command certainly isn't that consistent, but he probably has better raw "stuff". I wouldn't give up on him but get him healthy first, then see what he does.

KronoRed
08-01-2006, 03:59 PM
I'll take a Lidle like career out of EZ, at a number 3 it's not bad..he's cheap and doesn't let the other team get 5-10 runs in one inning before the pen can get going

reds44
08-01-2006, 04:09 PM
How is his peak Cory Lidle when he is already putting up better numbers then Lidle?

Are you saying this is his peak?

Ravenlord
08-01-2006, 04:10 PM
I'll take a Lidle like career out of EZ, at a number 3 it's not bad.
you put two Cory Lidle clones behind EZ in the current rotation and the Reds just might convincingly win the central. or if you just put one Lidle behind EZ.

hopefully what he did in Houston wasn't a fluke and he's currently on his way to being an average starter. but EZ's K numbers have decline, and his SLG against risen with each month in the season.

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Beware pitchers with low K rates unless they're extreme groundball specialists.

Ravenlord
08-01-2006, 04:31 PM
How is his peak Cory Lidle when he is already putting up better numbers then Lidle?

Are you saying this is his peak?
yes and no. unless EZ refines his change and gets better command (odd to say when a guy doesn't walk many) the league will begin to eat him alive. the league has alredy shown that they're begining to adjust to his 'new toy', and the rest of his arsenal not being overpowering, he needs to not catch so much of the plate.

he's had two good months (April and June), but his BABIP in each of those months was below 270. amazingly in July, with a 370 BABIP and an 819 OPS against, Ramirez kept his ERA for the month at 4.56. every month this season has seen a decline in his K rate as well. hopefully that game against Houston was evidence of Ramirez' adjusting to the league as well.

what i think you'll see from Ramirez after this year is a 170-185 inning starter with an ERA around 4.4 with 5.5-6 K's. which happen to be in line with Lidle's averages. and right now Ramirez's OPS against is identical to Lidle's career 761 mark.

PuffyPig
08-01-2006, 04:48 PM
FYI, Ramirez's DIPS ERA this year is 4.02 which puts him (assuming he had enough innings to qualify) rated #27 in the major leagues, tied with Justin Vanderler.

I'm not sure we understand just how well the Lizard has pitched this year.

buckeyenut
08-01-2006, 06:03 PM
EZ isn't as tall as Aaron, nor does he have his fastball movement.

Harang had a minor league K rate just over 8 and a H rate of 8.6.
EZ had a minor league K rate of 6.6 and a H rate of 9.33.

EZ's peak (assuming he learns to not catch so much plate and refine his change) is somewhere in the area of Cory Lidle, otherwise he'll end up being something like Jeff Suppan without the innings.
Those numbers though were, if I understand correctly, before he added a couple MPH to his fastball and added the change to his repertiore.

Ravenlord
08-01-2006, 07:27 PM
Those numbers though were, if I understand correctly, before he added a couple MPH to his fastball and added the change to his repertiore.
fastball's still mostly straight and he still doesn't have an out pitch. i think the change is the only reason he's been successful this year.

RedsManRick
08-01-2006, 07:35 PM
I've said it before, I'll said it again. Elizardo = Brad Radke. A solid #3 type guy for a long time with a few really good seasons thrown in.

redsfanmia
08-01-2006, 07:42 PM
EZ is just a solid pitcher, nothing spectacular but gives you mostly solid starts with a few great ones thrown in. Thank you Mario Soto for working witih this kid in the spring.

UKFlounder
08-01-2006, 07:58 PM
Elizardo is better than any starting pitcher to come soley out of the Reds' organization for several years (at least since Tomko). He has done a pretty solid job for this team this year.

dougdirt
08-01-2006, 08:22 PM
Ramirez wasnt really brought through the Reds system though. He was brought up mainly through the Phillies system, but I do think the Reds system gave him what he needed in that change up to make it to the bigs.

UKFlounder
08-01-2006, 08:39 PM
Ramirez wasnt really brought through the Reds system though. He was brought up mainly through the Phillies system, but I do think the Reds system gave him what he needed in that change up to make it to the bigs.

That's what I was trying to say, though obviously a poor attempt. I don't think his upside is that of a star or a stud pitcher, but he still appears - at least for now - better than anybody the Reds have developed on their own in recent times.

IslandRed
08-01-2006, 10:11 PM
EZ isn't as tall as Aaron, nor does he have his fastball movement.

Harang had a minor league K rate just over 8 and a H rate of 8.6.
EZ had a minor league K rate of 6.6 and a H rate of 9.33.

EZ's peak (assuming he learns to not catch so much plate and refine his change) is somewhere in the area of Cory Lidle, otherwise he'll end up being something like Jeff Suppan without the innings.

I agree that Ramirez probably doesn't quite have as much ceiling as Harang. But a straight comp of their minor-league numbers doesn't necessarily give the whole picture, as Ramirez was pushed through the Phillies' system quickly -- probably too quickly -- and stuck at each level about two years younger than Harang did. It's easy to forget EZ is just a pup.

Betterread
08-01-2006, 11:24 PM
EZ isn't as tall as Aaron, nor does he have his fastball movement.

Harang had a minor league K rate just over 8 and a H rate of 8.6.
EZ had a minor league K rate of 6.6 and a H rate of 9.33.

EZ's peak (assuming he learns to not catch so much plate and refine his change) is somewhere in the area of Cory Lidle, otherwise he'll end up being something like Jeff Suppan without the innings.

EZ is not as effective a pitcher as Aaron Harang is right now, but he is 23 and he has improved a great deal from last year, which I think is encouraging. I think he has a keen sense of game situations and displays an easy delivery - I enjoy watching him pitch and I think he will continue to improve. For the sake of argument, I'll say his ceiling is #3 starter, and I think he will be better than Claussen because he has better stuff and he keeps the ball down in the strikezone very well. Compared to Harang, I think he won't have as good statistics, but he will pitch more innings,because he is much more efficient at throwing strikes and staying loose than Harang, and he will help the Reds win more games as a result. Keep in mind that Aaron Harang did not debut in the majors until he was 24, and he didn't really impress anyone until last year, when he was 27.

fearofpopvol1
06-29-2012, 12:04 AM
Elizardo is better than any starting pitcher to come soley out of the Reds' organization for several years (at least since Tomko). He has done a pretty solid job for this team this year.

I saw Doug mention his name in the minor league forum and it had me searching about what this guy was up to. It looks like he's been out of baseball for a couple of years now (even the minors). I remember a lot of people on RZ being really high on The Lizard.

I am really happy to say that the Reds have come a LONG way since. I don't know if anyone saw the massive improvement to pitching the Reds were going to later experience.

kaldaniels
06-29-2012, 12:20 AM
I've said it before, I'll said it again. Elizardo = Brad Radke. A solid #3 type guy for a long time with a few really good seasons thrown in.

You've come a long way Rick! :beerme:

Man, I shudder at the thought of some of the things I wrote back in 2005 and 2006. (And I don't even know what they are, but I'm sure there are some clunkers)

crazybob60
06-29-2012, 12:24 AM
I've said it before, I'll said it again. Elizardo = Brad Radke. A solid #3 type guy for a long time with a few really good seasons thrown in.

So....what's your saying is that someone was actually the equal of Brad Radke at one time?!?!?!

:laugh:

M2
06-29-2012, 02:13 AM
Ramirez was part of a group of neverwases obtained by Dan O'Brien that included Josh Hancock, Anderson Machado, Jovan Moran, Joe Wilson, Bubba Nelson, Jung Bong, Dave Williams, Travis Chick and Justin Germano. The arguments made about how those guys were serious prospects, and how the worst pitching staffs in Reds history weren't so bad, and how a farm system that was in a shambles was on the right track, and how the Reds were doing all the right things during the organization's deepest swoon in half a century were some of the finest examples of magical thinking ever committed to writing.

Tom Servo
06-29-2012, 03:35 AM
Ramirez was part of a group of neverwases obtained by Dan O'Brien that included Josh Hancock, Anderson Machado, Jovan Moran, Joe Wilson, Bubba Nelson, Jung Bong, Dave Williams, Travis Chick and Justin Germano. The arguments made about how those guys were serious prospects, and how the worst pitching staffs in Reds history weren't so bad, and how a farm system that was in a shambles was on the right track, and how the Reds were doing all the right things during the organization's deepest swoon in half a century were some of the finest examples of magical thinking ever committed to writing.
Hey now, DanO acquired some real talent like John Vander Wal, Jason Romano, Allan Simpson, Jesus Sanchez, Ben Weber, and Jason Standridge.


and as you said, this
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/jungbong.jpg

camisadelgolf
06-29-2012, 03:39 AM
There are a lot of bad decisions that came from DanO, but he did a lot of good things, too (drafting Bruce, signing Cueto, etc.). Unfortunately, it wasn't nearly enough for the time he was around.

M2
06-29-2012, 11:26 AM
There are a lot of bad decisions that came from DanO, but he did a lot of good things, too (drafting Bruce, signing Cueto, etc.). Unfortunately, it wasn't nearly enough for the time he was around.

That's not a lot of good things. That's one good thing a year. The man was pathetic.

M2
06-29-2012, 11:27 AM
and as you said, this
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/jungbong.jpg

Everyone hits the Bong!

Crumbley
06-29-2012, 11:46 AM
Bong rips are the worst, show the man a little reeferspect.

mdccclxix
06-29-2012, 11:49 AM
The offseason should be hunting season for most egregious threads.

cincyinco
06-29-2012, 12:10 PM
If true, the one single best thing DanO did was institute the take a pitch rule that led to one Joey Votto being the hitter he is today..

jojo
06-29-2012, 12:47 PM
The offseason should be hunting season for most egregious threads.

Having "upside" and "Elizardo" in the thread title is too easy... :p

M2
06-29-2012, 12:49 PM
If true, the one single best thing DanO did was institute the take a pitch rule that led to one Joey Votto being the hitter he is today..

Except it's not true. How does stuff like this even get started? Votto drew 90 BB in 534 PAs in 2003 (the season before DanO arrived). He walked into the organization with a selective eye at the plate.

The season where the Reds instituted the mandatory take-a-strike policy was 2005 and it turned out to be Votto's worst season ever: .256/.330/.425. He actually dropped off the prospect radar thanks to that rule. Once DanO got the boot and Krivsky overhauled the development staff, the rule got chucked and Votto got back on track, turning himself into a top 100 prospect.

mdccclxix
06-29-2012, 12:53 PM
Except it's not true. How does stuff like this even get started? Votto drew 90 BB in 534 PAs in 2003 (the season before DanO arrived). He walked into the organization with a selective eye at the plate.

The season where the Reds instituted the mandatory take-a-strike policy was 2005 and it turned out to be Votto's worst season ever: .256/.330/.425. He actually dropped off the prospect radar thanks to that rule. Once DanO got the boot and Krivsky overhauled the development staff, the rule got chucked and Votto got back on track, turning himself into a top 100 prospect.

Votto was pretty upset about arriving to MLB as late as he did, I remember him referencing the 1 strike thing in some interviews and also talking about how he felt ready 1 year before he arrived. He probably was and could have put up at least an .800 OPS.

REDREAD
06-29-2012, 02:44 PM
Except it's not true. How does stuff like this even get started? Votto drew 90 BB in 534 PAs in 2003 (the season before DanO arrived). He walked into the organization with a selective eye at the plate.

The season where the Reds instituted the mandatory take-a-strike policy was 2005 and it turned out to be Votto's worst season ever: .256/.330/.425. He actually dropped off the prospect radar thanks to that rule. Once DanO got the boot and Krivsky overhauled the development staff, the rule got chucked and Votto got back on track, turning himself into a top 100 prospect.

I agree. DanO set the organization backward more than forward.
That "forced take strike" thing was one of the dumbest things the REds have ever done, and that's saying a lot.

I will always remember DanO during that game vs Houston. We were getting slaughtered.. the Astros just drove in a few more runs off our hapless pitching. The camera showed DanO up in his suite laughing his butt off.
DanO got hired because he brought a binder of ideas on how to cut costs.
Other than making Carl Lindner some extra money, he accomplished nothing.

He had what was percieved as 4 quality OF (Jr, Dunn, Kearns, Pena) and just sat on them. He gave away Reitsma, one of the Reds better pitchers at the time for nothing. He sucked.

RedsManRick
06-29-2012, 03:09 PM
I stand by my assessment. Based on the information we had at the time, both stats and scouting, Ramirez had #3 starter upside. I wonder how differently he'd fare pitching today -- out of the steroids era and with a very good defense behind him instead of the miserable ones of the mid 2000s.

M2
06-29-2012, 03:23 PM
I stand by my assessment. Based on the information we had at the time, both stats and scouting, Ramirez had #3 starter upside. I wonder how differently he'd fare pitching today -- out of the steroids era and with a very good defense behind him instead of the miserable ones of the mid 2000s.

Hitters would have continued to spray his arrow-straight, not-so-fastball all around the park. That guy sucked.

Sea Ray
06-29-2012, 03:30 PM
I stand by my assessment. Based on the information we had at the time, both stats and scouting, Ramirez had #3 starter upside. I wonder how differently he'd fare pitching today -- out of the steroids era and with a very good defense behind him instead of the miserable ones of the mid 2000s.

Goes to show how you can't rely on those stats and scouting. It's all about predicting the future and whatever method you used failed in this instance

kaldaniels
06-29-2012, 03:44 PM
Rick, I guess my thing is your comment was stated as fact (with emphasis). And maybe it's semantics but that does make a pretty big difference to me.

It's not a big deal but you did state that Elizardo Ramirez = Brad Radke. Rather than chuckle at that, you dig in your heels?

Sea Ray
06-29-2012, 03:49 PM
Rick, I guess my thing is your comment was stated as fact (with emphasis). And maybe it's semantics but that does make a pretty big difference to me.

It's not a big deal but you did state that Elizardo Ramirez = Brad Radke. Rather than chuckle at that, you dig in your heels?

Good point. Other than the wimps, we all make predictions around here. If they don't turn out just say "I was wrong". No sense in digging in your heels

reds44
06-29-2012, 04:02 PM
The Lizard was my guy. Saw him strike out 10 in Houston in person one time.

Yeah, he was pretty bad though.

Cedric
06-29-2012, 04:10 PM
I'm wrong often but had many arguments here with people about Reitsma and the Lizard.

Both were just not any good. No command and the straightest fastballs in league history.

WMR
06-29-2012, 04:13 PM
I need a Bong jersey, stat.

RedsManRick
06-29-2012, 04:45 PM
Rick, I guess my thing is your comment was stated as fact (with emphasis). And maybe it's semantics but that does make a pretty big difference to me.

It's not a big deal but you did state that Elizardo Ramirez = Brad Radke. Rather than chuckle at that, you dig in your heels?

I think that's a completely fair critique. Hopefully I've gotten better at showing my work over the years, so that things don't come across so bluntly.

kaldaniels
06-29-2012, 04:59 PM
I think that's a completely fair critique. Hopefully I've gotten better at showing my work over the years, so that things don't come across so bluntly.

Thats why you are one of the best. :beerme:

edabbs44
06-29-2012, 05:19 PM
Except it's not true. How does stuff like this even get started? Votto drew 90 BB in 534 PAs in 2003 (the season before DanO arrived). He walked into the organization with a selective eye at the plate.

The season where the Reds instituted the mandatory take-a-strike policy was 2005 and it turned out to be Votto's worst season ever: .256/.330/.425. He actually dropped off the prospect radar thanks to that rule. Once DanO got the boot and Krivsky overhauled the development staff, the rule got chucked and Votto got back on track, turning himself into a top 100 prospect.

I believe that Joey stated that the take a strike policy helped him greatly in his development.

camisadelgolf
06-29-2012, 05:20 PM
Just before the 2006 season started, the Lizard changed his mechanics in an unhealthy way that made him more effective. He was off to a hot start that year, but his performance declined significantly after his shoulder started to hurt. As I remember it, the injury was fairly obvious, but the Reds kept sending him out there--probably out of desperation.

cincrazy
06-29-2012, 06:24 PM
I agree. DanO set the organization backward more than forward.
That "forced take strike" thing was one of the dumbest things the REds have ever done, and that's saying a lot.

I will always remember DanO during that game vs Houston. We were getting slaughtered.. the Astros just drove in a few more runs off our hapless pitching. The camera showed DanO up in his suite laughing his butt off.
DanO got hired because he brought a binder of ideas on how to cut costs.
Other than making Carl Lindner some extra money, he accomplished nothing.

He had what was percieved as 4 quality OF (Jr, Dunn, Kearns, Pena) and just sat on them. He gave away Reitsma, one of the Reds better pitchers at the time for nothing. He sucked.

Good God. We were terrible.

M2
06-29-2012, 06:42 PM
I believe that Joey stated that the take a strike policy helped him greatly in his development.

As I remember it, reports were that Votto was a man reborn once he got out from under that insane rule and that he was seriously upset while he was being forced to take strike one in every AB. From a practical standpoint, what did it teach him? He had patience and a good two-strike approach before 2005.

RedsManRick
06-29-2012, 06:49 PM
Rick, I guess my thing is your comment was stated as fact (with emphasis). And maybe it's semantics but that does make a pretty big difference to me.

It's not a big deal but you did state that Elizardo Ramirez = Brad Radke. Rather than chuckle at that, you dig in your heels?

I chuckle that I was inarticulate, suggesting he was Radke then and there already rather than having the potential to be like him. Clearly a 6.00 ERA is not a 3.50 ERA.

But I don't take back my belief that he had the skills to be Radkesque given more opportunity.

lollipopcurve
06-29-2012, 07:01 PM
Ramirez was a guy who had a pretty insane K:BB ratio in the minors. Didn't walk anyone. I remember watching his 10 K game (for the Reds) and getting pretty excited about him. (I also got a big kick out of T. Van Poppel's complete game 93 pitch/74 strike CG outing vs. the Pirates one September -- in that long dark night of pitching pathos that was the 2000s, those kinds of games shone like the northern lights. Unforgettable, apparently.) EZ had some arm issues not long after his stint as a starter for the Reds -- I think he may have been an OK BOR guy for someone if he'd stayed healthy.

Tom Servo
06-29-2012, 07:06 PM
I remember watching his 10 K game (for the Reds) and getting pretty excited about him. (I also got a big kick out of T. Van Poppel's complete game 93 pitch/74 strike CG outing vs. the Pirates one September -- in that long dark night of pitching pathos that was the 2000s, those kinds of games shone like the northern lights. Unforgettable, apparently.)
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.

kaldaniels
06-29-2012, 07:29 PM
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.

Livingston here too. I still check up on him every now and then. I thought Elizardo had potential too...but by no means a sure thing.

Shearn and Michalak were just minor league filler. Zero stuff.

Danny Serafini
06-29-2012, 08:28 PM
I saw the Lizard pitch for Louisville against the Mud Hens. Control was great, did a great job of changing speeds, I was sold. Oops.

camisadelgolf
06-29-2012, 08:45 PM
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.
Who in his right mind ever got excited about Chris Michalak?

M2
06-29-2012, 08:59 PM
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.

Livingston had a spectacular pitching brain. If only he had an arm to match. I loved watching him pitch with pretty much nothing.


I'm wrong often but had many arguments here with people about Reitsma and the Lizard.

Both were just not any good. No command and the straightest fastballs in league history.

I'd argue Reitsma had some command, but you could hang clothes on his fastball. Luke Hudson also had a ridiculously straight fastball.

One of my favorite topics back in the day was whether Hudson was the Reds' ace after the 2004 season. No small number of folks said yes and, more than that, insisted it was a good thing.

jojo
06-29-2012, 09:01 PM
It's not accurate to blame Elizardo on the scouts. Philly saw no future for him and one would be hard pressed to find a report suggesting his ceiling was much higher than 5th starter/C prospect.

Why? He was always in the strike zone but had below average velocity, didnt miss bats and had no out pitch. On top of it, he had some large platoon splits in the minors. He made it to AAA by minimizing damage by not walking anyone but even then he was hittable at every level he pitched. There just wasn't much head room in his projection.

lollipopcurve
06-29-2012, 10:04 PM
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.

Shearn had that big yacker. 12-6 waterfall.

Tom Servo
06-29-2012, 11:01 PM
Who in his right mind ever got excited about Chris Michalak?
I could have sworn somebody did but apparently no, nobody did. :laugh:


I did stumble upon a name I hadn't thought of in years though: William Bergolla.

Reds Freak
06-29-2012, 11:33 PM
I remember folks getting excited over Chris Michalak, Tom Shearn, and, one I'm guilty of, Bobby Livingston.

IIRC, didn't Bobby Livingston have something like 7 consecutive hits? Maybe I'm a bit off but I'm thinking he set some sort of Reds hitting records as a pitcher.

camisadelgolf
06-29-2012, 11:43 PM
IIRC, didn't Bobby Livingston have something like 7 consecutive hits? Maybe I'm a bit off but I'm thinking he set some sort of Reds hitting records as a pitcher.
You're referring to this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL200707160.shtml) in which he was 4-for-4.

jojo
06-29-2012, 11:43 PM
IIRC, didn't Bobby Livingston have something like 7 consecutive hits? Maybe I'm a bit off but I'm thinking he set some sort of Reds hitting records as a pitcher.

He had a .280 BA and a .333 OBP as a red.... He should probably bat in front of Votto... :D

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=livinbo01&t=b&year=2007

jojo
06-29-2012, 11:48 PM
You're referring to this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL200707160.shtml) in which he was 4-for-4.

He powered the Reds to within 17 gmes of .500.... With that context, the gnashing of teeth this season seem a bit puzzling.

Sea Ray
06-30-2012, 10:28 AM
I didn't follow him closely after he left the organization but didn't he have a shoulder issue? Those balky shoulders have derailed many a pitcher's careers

Sea Ray
06-30-2012, 10:29 AM
Shearn had that big yacker. 12-6 waterfall.

Any of you remember Mo Sanford? He had a doozy of a curve too. His career also was quite forgettable

nate
06-30-2012, 10:51 AM
Shearn had that big yacker. 12-6 waterfall.

"Hot Rod" Lincoln too. It was a great pitch...sometimes!

cincyinco
06-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Except it's not true. How does stuff like this even get started? Votto drew 90 BB in 534 PAs in 2003 (the season before DanO arrived). He walked into the organization with a selective eye at the plate.

The season where the Reds instituted the mandatory take-a-strike policy was 2005 and it turned out to be Votto's worst season ever: .256/.330/.425. He actually dropped off the prospect radar thanks to that rule. Once DanO got the boot and Krivsky overhauled the development staff, the rule got chucked and Votto got back on track, turning himself into a top 100 prospect.

M2,it's nice to have you back.

Anyway, that exactly why I qualified my entire statement with "if true". As for where it got started? I believe straight from the source, pretty sure Votto gives credit to the take the first pitch policy. I will send if I can find a link..

Danny Serafini
06-30-2012, 03:15 PM
You're referring to this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL200707160.shtml) in which he was 4-for-4.

For some reason that just brought back memories of Randy Keisler's walkoff hit in his Reds debut.