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View Full Version : Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??



TheBigLebowski
08-02-2006, 01:01 AM
Allow me to list the litany of problems we had tonight.

First and foremost, we lost to a team in close pursuit of us for the W/C.

Bronson Arroyo had yet another poor outing, adding fuel to the "Arroyo is regressing to the mean!" and "Arroyo is tired!" fires. Regardless of what you think of BA, you have to admit your confidence in the man is damaged now.

Royce Clayton had yet another bad defensive outing. Royce was one of the players we acquired when we dealt Kearns, Lopez, and Wagner. Ostensibly, Royce was to make the defense better. He has done nothing of the sort. My two Corgis could play better defense, and I'd wager they'd garner a few more base hits.

I hate to re-hash the Kearns/Lopez/Wagner deal for the 143,452nd time, but the return for that deal continues to make WK look like a moron while raising the collective blood pressure of Reds fans from sea to sea. Majewski's been horrendous. Bray took the loss tonight and looked awful, and I am including the Freel dropped fly in my analysis. This trade has not helped us AT ALL. One of the worst deals the Reds have ever made in my opinion. It gets worse with every passing day. BTW - Kearns and Lopez are starting to hit for WASH now.

We picked up two guys on deadline day - Cormier and Lohse. Rheal Cormier rheally walked the first batter he faced with the bases loaded. He then gave up the Furcal double. What the hell is it about the Reds' uniform that makes relievers stink??? BTW, to those apologists who were trying to bail out RC by stating that it is very difficult to make your first appearance with a new team with the bases loaded - come on. He's a 39 year old "veteran," which should make him impervious. In all seriousness, there is no excuse for his performance. Our other newbie, Kyle Lohse, gave up 4 hits and an ER in his first IP as a Red. Most Reds fans were not big fans of either trade. Don't expect that to change now.

Getting back to Freel...knowing Narron like we all do, his error now means he will go from being an almost-regular to Chris Denorfia/EE status. Not having Freel in the lineup hurts this team immensely. WE know that. Impartial observers know that. Big Foot knows that. Jerry Narron, sadly, does not.

I am getting really tired of reading posts here from people who think that getting Clayton the hell out of the IF, moving BPhil to SS, and platooning the 45 people we have on this roster who can play 2B is a bad idea b/c 'you cannot revamp an infield at this point in the season' and ' Aurilia and Clayton are veterans who know what they are doing and this team is winning for a reason.

WHAT A BUNCH OF BUNK.

I don't care how big of a Narron apologist you are - his personnel decisions are legendarily bad. Boone-ish. There is NO F'ING reason why BPhil cannot play short. It's not as if you're asking a left fielder to throw middle relief. Rich Aurilia is NOT a cleanup hitter. You do NOT PH for EE with the bases loaded. You do not bat Royce Clayton leadoff (JN did this in game 2 of the Brewers series). Hell, you really shouldn't bat him at all. He's horrible offensively and defensively. Everyone here already knows that.

David Ross should be getting 75% of the starts at C, and Jason LaRue should be in Louisville or on waivers. Ross produced tonight, as he does almost every night in which he starts.

Soooo..to sum, we lost, all the roster moves we made or didn't make blew up in our face, we lost yet another chance to pick up ground in the NL Central race (and believe me - once we start winning again, so too will STL), and we lost to one of our W/C competitors.

Bad, bad night.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 01:07 AM
Like I posted in another thread, if they really want to make a run just follow the Twins method (cut bait on the old guys and turn it over to the youngsters)

EE to 3rd, BP to SS, Freel to 2b, Denorfia to RF, RA platoon with Hatty and 3 starts elsewhere a week, move Jr down in the order.

Of course we get to talk all we want but absolutely none of this will happen until after it is to late to matter. BTW, I doubt it will happen then. THe Reds have taken a roster with a nucleus of young talent and turned it into a geriatric ward.

MrCinatit
08-02-2006, 01:22 AM
With Narron at the helm, the youngsters will never get a chance. Period.

dsmith421
08-02-2006, 02:03 AM
Twins fans, incidentally, are apparently starting to believe that their club's reliance on overrated veterans was a result of Krivsky's influence. God I hope not. We need change, and we need it now.

dougdirt
08-02-2006, 02:23 AM
It could have gone worse yes, but for that to happen Arroyo would have had to grabbed his arm before walking to the dugout,while on the same pitch a fly ball is hit to rf/cf gap and Griffey and Dunn collide in rf/cf and both leaving on a cart that incidentally runs over Ryan Freels foot and breaks it.

But yeah, tonight was pretty freaking bad. Could have been worse. Pretty rough though.

KronoRed
08-02-2006, 02:33 AM
With Narron at the helm, the youngsters will never get a chance. Period.
Wayne could "suggest" he play the kids, but I think Wayne likes the vets just as much as Narron does.

TC81190
08-02-2006, 02:44 AM
Like I posted in another thread, if they really want to make a run just follow the Twins method (cut bait on the old guys and turn it over to the youngsters)

EE to 3rd, BP to SS, Freel to 2b, Denorfia to RF, RA platoon with Hatty and 3 starts elsewhere a week, move Jr down in the order.

Of course we get to talk all we want but absolutely none of this will happen until after it is to late to matter. BTW, I doubt it will happen then. THe Reds have taken a roster with a nucleus of young talent and turned it into a geriatric ward.


Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.

TeamBoone
08-02-2006, 02:46 AM
Totally agree with EVERYTHING TBL said... excellent post. You should send it to JN, WK, and RC.

Question: If Ryan Freel sits tomorrow because of the error he made tonight (we'll never know if that's the real reason he sits, if he sits at all, but we will assume so), why wouldn't Royce Clayton sit for the same reason (even though we know he won't)?

That's a horrible sentence but I know you'll get my drift.

TeamBoone
08-02-2006, 02:48 AM
Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.

Yes, they're doing well; so was EE. It doesn't mean they should BOTH be in the lineup every single night.

TC81190
08-02-2006, 02:49 AM
Yes, they're doing well; so was EE. It doesn't mean they should BOTH be in the lineup every single night.

Why not? Rich can play 2B, Phillips SS, and Hatteberg stays at 1B.

Ltlabner
08-02-2006, 08:08 AM
Lots of people seem fixated on the EE/RA situation which most have caluated could "cost" us 1-2 games if EE doesn't play. That is, if everything works out as predicted.

People love to gripe about age. Another total non issue. If they are winning I don't give a crap how old people are.

Clayton gets hammered and he should because he is horrible. I personally applogize to anybody who said he was horrible and I replied with "I don't know, if he brings good defense he's worth it". But one does not have to be clever to figure out that Clayton is a problem thus far.

Narron's weakness that I think will infact hurt the team by way more than "1-2" games is his use of the pitching staff. We are reaping the benefits of it now. He rode BA hard in the early part of the season and now it seems to be effecting him. AH has still pitched well but not nearly as "crisply" as earlier. (That's my perception). I'd love to see some statistical work of BA's effectiveness in the later part of the season. If it shows he does infact "get tired" then Narron is 100% to blame as those stats and history are readily availble. All of the times BA was left in (like for complete game losses) just to eat up innings should have been avoided no matter how crappy the bullpen is. You don't use up one guy because the other guys suck.

If BA can't get it together you can forget EE/RA's measly "1-2" games. The deficit will be much larger. Lizzard may be able to carry some of the slack but I don't see Milton and the 5th starter to be named later stepping up.

He handling of the bullpen has been horrible but that was masked by the fact the bullpen itself was horrible. He's too late to pull the starter and doesn't have the feal for when a guy doesn't have it. Last night he made a lot of switches so maybe his confidence in the new guys will help with this issue. But if he continues to stick with the starter that "one batter too many" then we got big problems.

The use of the pitching staff is a real issue IMO that I think deserves much more of our attention, statiscall research and analysis.

Marc D
08-02-2006, 09:11 AM
This brings me back to the point made by Narron supportsers of how much credit he should get for being above .500 and how much different things are than under Boone/Miley.

The defense is still horrific, the team still makes bone headed base running errors pretty frequently, the best 8 don't play nightly and the use of what pitching resources are to be had is questionable at best.

The only difference is that Narron has been handed better pitching than Boone or Miley and even with that has only managed to stay slightly above .500. Any normal year thats barely a fringe WC team and certainly not a "contender".

When Arroyo goes back to normal the constant mistakes this guy makes will catch up and he'll be sub .500 just like the two managers he was cloned from that proceeded him.

dabvu2498
08-02-2006, 09:22 AM
When Arroyo goes back to normal
I'd say he's there.

RBA
08-02-2006, 09:32 AM
Rich Aurilia is a terrible defender. Early in the game, there was a hit to his left and instead of going after the ball and making the play, Aurilia stood there like a statue. He didn't even make an attempt on the ball as the ball went into left field. Couple that with Clayton's lack of defense and the Reds have one of the worst 3rd Base/SS combo ever to start together.

Here's what it the defense should be:

EE 3rd Base
BP SS
Freel 2nd base
1st Base Hat/RA
RF Griffey
CF Deno
LF Dunn
C Ross

REDREAD
08-02-2006, 11:44 AM
Getting back to Freel...knowing Narron like we all do, his error now means he will go from being an almost-regular to Chris Denorfia/EE status. Not having Freel in the lineup hurts this team immensely. WE know that. Impartial observers know that. Big Foot knows that. Jerry Narron, sadly, does not.


Well, look at the bright side. Narron HAS to play either Freel or Denorfia. There's no veteran OF to take the RF slot (and least not yet :laugh: )

REDREAD
08-02-2006, 11:48 AM
If BA can't get it together you can forget EE/RA's measly "1-2" games. The deficit will be much larger. Lizzard may be able to carry some of the slack but I don't see Milton and the 5th starter to be named later stepping up.


Huge game for the Lizard tonight vs Penny. I hate to say "must win", but we've got to win either tonight or tommorrow (preferably both, but I'm trying to be realistic). We can't let LA gain 3 games on us in the WC.

TheBigLebowski
08-02-2006, 12:23 PM
Huge game for the Lizard tonight vs Penny. I hate to say "must win", but we've got to win either tonight or tommorrow (preferably both, but I'm trying to be realistic). We can't let LA gain 3 games on us in the WC.

I think we need them both.

BRM
08-02-2006, 01:51 PM
Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.

Rich stinks against RHP and Hat struggles with LHP. Why do people continue to ignore this? A platoon at 1B would be the best fit for the Reds at this point.

dougdirt
08-02-2006, 02:01 PM
People dont continue to ignore it, just 1 person. Unfortunately its the only person making the decisions, Jerry Narron.

CrackerJack
08-02-2006, 02:03 PM
Amen Big L - I feel better just reading that post of frustration.

The media types around here act like the Reds' are already in the playoffs and that "effort" somehow = competence. Marty defended both trades the other day non-stop and without question. It was absolutely silly and annoying to listen to him.

Krivsky looks like a moron right now and Narron more so than ever.

I really wish the local media drones would quit giving these guys free passes on everything and pandering to them - while calling any fan who disagrees with anything they do an idiot.

I swear the fans know more than the radio personalities and writers do in this town, the vast majority of them. It would be nice to hear an objective opinion on things with sound statistical basis once in a while than the "I know it all" rantings and ravings of people like Marty - who's opinion is worthless at this point in his career - everything he says is driven by personal relationships, his age, and personal bias, making it worthless to most of us who have a clue.

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2006, 02:12 PM
People dont continue to ignore it, just 1 person. Unfortunately its the only person making the decisions, Jerry Narron.

Oh! You mean the 1 person who has managed this team to a winning record at this point of the season since.... uh, umm, errr. Somebody help me. Guess it has been awhile.

Despite the fact that most experts (and many here) had dire predictions for the REDS this year. Yet they are battling for a playoff spot in August. Guess some think they'd be 30 games over .500 with a diff. manager. Perhaps they'd be 20 under .500 with a diff. manager? Perhaps one of these experts with their magical crystal ball can answer that better than me...

Jerry has to quit giving up key hits. Jerry has got to quit making errors. Jerry needs to hit better w/ men on base. Jerry should get guys like Abreau, Maddux or Soriano with his own money. Darn that Jerry.

ochre
08-02-2006, 02:37 PM
Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.
With all due respect, please stop telling people to shut the hell up.

dougdirt
08-02-2006, 06:42 PM
Oh! You mean the 1 person who has managed this team to a winning record at this point of the season since.... uh, umm, errr. Somebody help me. Guess it has been awhile.


Yeah, that same guy. The same guy who continues to run out horrible line ups that are never the same, give no one outside of Griffey an idea of where they will hit every day, the same guy who doesnt understand how to use a bullpen. Yeah, just because we have a winning record does not mean the guy is doing a good job. Just becuase someone else has a losing record doesnt mean they are doing a bad job either. You can only do so much with your given team, and Jerry Narron is doing a very bad job with the team he has been given.



Despite the fact that most experts (and many here) had dire predictions for the REDS this year. Yet they are battling for a playoff spot in August. Guess some think they'd be 30 games over .500 with a diff. manager. Perhaps they'd be 20 under .500 with a diff. manager? Perhaps one of these experts with their magical crystal ball can answer that better than me...

Since the time those projections were made the Reds have also gotten Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips, David Ross and Elizardo Ramirez has also joined the team to be a very reliable starter. I dont think the Reds would be 30 games over with anyone, nor would they be 20 under with anyone. I think a decent manager would have this team in first place in the Central right now though, by at least a game.


Jerry has to quit giving up key hits. Jerry has got to quit making errors. Jerry needs to hit better w/ men on base. Jerry should get guys like Abreau, Maddux or Soriano with his own money. Darn that Jerry.

Jerry should quit giving up hits. Every time he puts in a guy like Shackelford against a righty, he gives up hits....becuase some guys just dont perform against certain other types of guys.
Jerry cant control errors, but errors are overrated to an extent. Jerry should put the correct players in position to make more plays on more balls, which he currently does not do.
Jerry needs to put the right guys in there to hit with men on base. He should NEVER pinch hit for Edwin Encarnacion with the bases loaded. He shouldnt let Scott Hatteberg hit with a left handed pitcher on the mound and he shouldnt let Rich Aurilia hit with a right hander on the mound. Yet he does it all the time.

So I agree, DARN THAT JERRY!

redsrule2500
08-02-2006, 09:18 PM
It could have gone worse yes, but for that to happen Arroyo would have had to grabbed his arm before walking to the dugout,while on the same pitch a fly ball is hit to rf/cf gap and Griffey and Dunn collide in rf/cf and both leaving on a cart that incidentally runs over Ryan Freels foot and breaks it.

But yeah, tonight was pretty freaking bad. Could have been worse. Pretty rough though.

:laugh: But seriously though, getting griffey out might help this team.

PS> Not wishing an injury or anything!!u

REDREAD
08-03-2006, 09:58 AM
I think we need them both.

:( , Well that didn't work. Now we're counting on Milton to salvage the series. Let's hope Maddux is really finished.

I'm really down on this team now. We're getting cold at the worse time.
Of course, I will listen, but I don't have a whole lot of optimism about tonight.

REDREAD
08-03-2006, 10:03 AM
It would be nice to hear an objective opinion on things with sound statistical basis once in a while than the "I know it all" rantings and ravings of people like Marty - who's opinion is worthless at this point in his career - everything he says is driven by personal relationships, his age, and personal bias, making it worthless to most of us who have a clue.

Marty has gotten to the point where he's become a parody of his former self. When he shares his "wisdom", I can't help but laugh now. He says that replacing Clayton with Lopez was crucial to winning the playoffs. About a month ago, he said resigning Castro should be the top priority of the Reds this offseason. When Steve was praising Berkman, Marty had to get all snotty and point out that Berkman had more RBIs than Dunn despite being on a worst team and all but say Dunn is overrated/sucks, etc.

You're right, his opinions are totally based on his personal bias.

Krusty
08-03-2006, 11:30 AM
This team needs to get it's head out of it's ass and realize that they are in a pennant race and there are several teams gunning for them for the wildcard spot.

Really, did the Reds think the Dodgers were going to come in and just go through the motions?

TeamBoone
08-03-2006, 04:07 PM
My theory may be all wet, but sometimes I think it's a problem when so many new players are brought in at this time of the year.

Clayton and Phillips are having a tough time playing together. If they can't get it together soon, something needs to change. I'd also like to see Castro out there more often. Not that he's necessary a big upgrade (though he might be), but he seems to be more sure of himself. I suppose it would help if they put in some extra practice turning those DPs and perhaps talk to each other about what they expect of the other person. They are definitely not on the same page.

There are only two guys in the BP from the opening day roster... not that shoring up the bullpen wasn't the right thing to do, but most of that "help" came in July. It's tough for guys starting out on a new team and usually takes a couple times on the mound to stop trying too hard. They want so badly to do well for their new team that they end up doing just the opposite.

Tony Cloninger
08-07-2006, 11:21 PM
I just had to bring this thread back up.....BEACUSE.....Yes.....today, it did get worse......BY A WIDE MARGIN.

LINEDRIVER
08-08-2006, 12:32 AM
Tonight's gem will probably put a damper on walk-up tickets sales for Tuesday night. Even the $1.00 hotdogs wont save Tuesday night.