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View Full Version : Too Many Old Men!



roby
08-02-2006, 01:12 AM
I am blown away that the Reds seem to have committed themselves to playing all of the old men on the roster. It's sad to run so many out there night after night who are at the end of their careers. I can understand Griffey (although I think a few more days off and some late inning defensive help from Denorfia are in order). BUT, to depend on Clayton, Weathers, Cormier, etc. as much as they do is a big mistake IMO. At best, I think that Hatteburg and Aurilia should be platooning at first base, with Aurilia also getting some spot starts at 2nd and 3rd; Clayton should be out of the picture completely; and Edwin Encarnacion should be playing nearly every day at third! Everyone knocks EE's defense, but it is not any worse than Clayton's or Aurilia's. How do the Reds think that they will be in the post season by relying on these old vets??? :bang:

tripleaaaron
08-02-2006, 01:26 AM
vets are scrappy? or players the same age as narron play the same way as narron does, old school, thats the only way we can get players to play well in our system, so the vets actually give us the best chance???

keeganbrick
08-02-2006, 01:30 AM
I am blown away that the Reds seem to have committed themselves to playing all of the old men on the roster. It's sad to run so many out there night after night who are at the end of their careers. I can understand Griffey (although I think a few more days off and some late inning defensive help from Denorfia are in order). BUT, to depend on Clayton, Weathers, Cormier, etc. as much as they do is a big mistake IMO. At best, I think that Hatteburg and Aurilia should be platooning at first base, with Aurilia also getting some spot starts at 2nd and 3rd; Clayton should be out of the picture completely; and Edwin Encarnacion should be playing nearly every day at third! Everyone knocks EE's defense, but it is not any worse than Clayton's or Aurilia's. How do the Reds think that they will be in the post season by relying on these old vets??? :bang:
Do rookies win in the post season all the time or something? How do they depend on Cormier a lot, he has been here one day. I agree EE should be playing more but yougotta get r Rich in there too. How can you compare EE's D to Clayton's? Do you want him to start at SS or something?

dougdirt
08-02-2006, 02:14 AM
Talent wins in the post season keeganbrick. I mean its not like veterans win in the post season all the time either. If you perform, its because you are good and not because you are a veteran, or you are a rookie. Its simply becuase you are good.

KalDanielsfan
08-02-2006, 02:34 AM
Talent wins in the post season keeganbrick. I mean its not like veterans win in the post season all the time either. If you perform, its because you are good and not because you are a veteran, or you are a rookie. Its simply becuase you are good.

yup..2003 Marlins say hello :)

Jpup
08-02-2006, 04:52 AM
Andruw Jones was pretty good in the post season. Derek Jeter was pretty good in his younger days as well.

MaineRed
08-02-2006, 06:34 AM
And Edwin Encarnacion is neither (Jeter or Jones).


Its simply becuase you are good

Does this include defense? Look, I really dislike Clayton and none of it has to do with what he has done since he got to Cincy. I've never liked the guy. But it is is amazing how he gets dragged under the bus for failing to make a, "routine double play," while people continue to cry for Edwin who has struggled with routine plays more than anyone on the team this season. If Clayton needs to be DFA'd because of last night, as some other threads have suggested, what does it say about Encarnacion? Boy, people have short memories. Clayton gets booed for not pulling of an easy play but if Edwin failed to pull off the same play, Narron should just let him play through it, the masses would say.

My favorite suggestions are for Narron to fix the SS defense problem by making the third base defense equally as bad. A Rich, Edwin left side is downright scary and is not a play-off defense. Say the same about Royce and Rich if you like but they are better than Rich and Edwin would be, that is for sure.

Too many old men? Yeah, the youth movement of the last 6 years has been working wonders, hasn't it.

Stay in the WC lead and the Reds can use Minnie Minoso to pinch hit for all I care.

Ltlabner
08-02-2006, 07:36 AM
I find that those bashing anyone over 30 are themselves under 30. It's not as if any skills shrivel up and die the minute you become "a vet". Nor does being under 30 imbue someone with magical powers that only increase with every passing year (till 30 that is).

I also find those defending the over 30 crowd are themselves over 30. Not everybody, but a lot. With age does come a declining skill set. Tallent can compensate for a while but at the MLB level the drop off is amazing.

But this fanatical fixiation on vets is a non-issue smokescreen. If we win, you can play trained monkeys in the field, as long as the objective of the exersize is completed. It's foolish to say "our best chances for winning are younger players" but equally foolish to say "our best chances for winning are with experienced players". You strive for the mix that works best and there is no "sure fire" forumla for acomplishing this.

But there are a lot more important issues with the team that need to be addressed before the "age limit" issue is dealt with, IMO.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 09:02 AM
Interesting how the Reds/Twins having taken paths 180 degrees in opposite directions as the season has worn on.

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:02 AM
Interesting how the Reds/Twins having taken paths 180 degrees in opposite directions as the season has worn on.

It's funny that the Twins started winning when they dumped their "vets" and started playing younger guys.

Tom B
08-02-2006, 11:07 AM
Yea I hate to say it but Griffey is starting to really look old in Center field, I think its time for a change to the corners. I know its the middle of the season but I really think they need to shuffle up the lineup and positions. Need Edwin's bat in there, and need to lose Claytons... Havent we seen enough of him already to make a fair assessment that he isnt the answer?

dabvu2498
08-02-2006, 11:12 AM
Yea I hate to say it but Griffey is starting to really look old in Center field, I think its time for a change to the corners. I know its the middle of the season but I really think they need to shuffle up the lineup and positions. Need Edwin's bat in there, and need to lose Claytons... Havent we seen enough of him already to make a fair assessment that he isnt the answer?
Let's see... based on all this discussion, I'll make out a lineup:

Denorfia -- CF
Olmedo -- 2B
Dunn -- LF
Votto -- 1B
Encarnacion -- 3B
Phillips -- SS
Freel -- RF (he's almost 30... is that too old? If so, we can plug Jay Bruce in here)
Ross -- C (he's almost 30... is that too old? If so, we can plug Sardinha in here)

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Let's see... based on all this discussion, I'll make out a lineup:

Denorfia -- CF
Olmedo -- 2B
Dunn -- LF
Votto -- 1B
Encarnacion -- 3B
Phillips -- SS
Freel -- RF (he's almost 30... is that too old? If so, we can plug Jay Bruce in here)
Ross -- C (he's almost 30... is that too old? If so, we can plug Sardinha in here)

It has nothing to do with young vs. old, at least to me it doesn't. I don't see anyone claiming Hatteberg should be on the bench and he's well over 30. I don't see many claiming RA should ride the pine. They just want EE playing 3B. It has to do with putting the best 8 players in the best spots to maximize the team's chance to win. Under no circumstances is Royce Clayton one of those 8. If Royce was 23 years old and playing the way he is, I'd still clamor to remove him from the lineup. EE can at least make up for his poor defense with lots of offense. Clayton makes up for his poor defense with very weak offense. What's gained by running Royce Clayton out there everyday?

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:17 AM
The Reds are the anti-Twins

Jr's Boy
08-02-2006, 11:18 AM
Platooning Hatteberg with Aurilia?I guess you haven't been following Scott Hattebergs performance this year.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:20 AM
Platooning Hatteberg with Aurilia?I guess you haven't been following Scott Hattebergs performance this year.I guess you havn't checked out there splits.

RA OPS against RHP is .670, LHP is 1.160
Hatty OPS against LHP is .752, RHP is .936

Those numbers scream platoon.

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:37 AM
I guess you havn't checked out there splits.

RA OPS against RHP is .670, LHP is 1.160
Hatty OPS against LHP is .752, RHP is .936

Those numbers scream platoon.

Yes they do. The platoon worked very well in the first half but Narron has fallen in love with Rich to the point that he plays everyday now. Rich's numbers against righties indicate he should be a platoon player but I guess Jerry doesn't look at the splits.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:39 AM
Rich's numbers against righties indicate he should be a platoon player but I guess Jerry doesn't look at the splits.Jerry can't even spell OPS.

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:41 AM
Jerry can't even spell OPS.

No, but I'm sure he can spell batting average and Rich's is a crisp .244 against righties. Can he spell OBP? Rich's OBP against righties is a paltry .292.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:43 AM
No, but I'm sure he can spell batting average and Rich's is a crisp .244 against righties. Can he spell OBP? Rich's OBP against righties is a paltry .292.Doesn't matter because he knows how to play the game and plays it the right way.

registerthis
08-02-2006, 11:44 AM
I guess you havn't checked out there splits.

RA OPS against RHP is .670, LHP is 1.160
Hatty OPS against LHP is .752, RHP is .936

Those numbers scream platoon.

A .936 OPS screams platoon?

IMO Hatteberg's won the first base job outright. Aurilia can go find somewhere else to get plugged into the lineup.

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:45 AM
Doesn't matter because he knows how to play the game and plays it the right way.

Oh yeah. Richie can make lots of outs against RHP. Is that the right way?

Actually, I'm quite positive that the reason Rich is an everyday player now is nearly 100% related to EE's defense, or lack thereof.

BRM
08-02-2006, 11:46 AM
A .936 OPS screams platoon?

IMO Hatteberg's won the first base job outright. Aurilia can go find somewhere else to get plugged into the lineup.

That's his OPS against righties. His OPS against lefties is .752, which still isn't bad.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:46 AM
A .936 OPS screams platoon? :confused:

a .752 does.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:47 AM
THis OPS against lefties is .752, which still isn't bad.... for a first baseman it stinks.

registerthis
08-02-2006, 01:05 PM
:confused:

a .752 does.

Gah, I mis-read the numbers. My fault.

Carry on.

minus5
08-02-2006, 01:27 PM
Old?!? Are you kidding me? Just look at the Reds dugout!

http://mastuvu.typepad.com/monuments/waldorf.jpg

flyer85
08-02-2006, 01:29 PM
Old?!? Are you kidding me? Just look at the Reds dugout!

http://mastuvu.typepad.com/monuments/waldorf.jpgalmost fell out of my chair. :laugh:

Redsland
08-02-2006, 02:15 PM
http://mastuvu.typepad.com/monuments/waldorf.jpg
-These seats are awful.
- Why? Can't you see anything?
- That's the problem. I can see everything.
:laugh: