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View Full Version : Royce Clayton Seems On Edge



reds44
08-02-2006, 03:18 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060801&content_id=1587832&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


"No, I had to get to the bag, and make a perfect throw," Clayton said, when asked if the ball slipped. "I'm not perfect. The call went against us."

Curious, since when does making a good enough throw to keep your 1st baseman on the bag count as perfect? The throw by Clayton pulled Hatteberg off the bag, and he might have gotten his foot back on it. If he makes a throw that keeps him on the bag we are out of the inning.

It would have been nice to hear him say that he just made a bad throw and go from there, but no he says that "he isn't perfect."

Please Royce we have known for 12 years now that you aren't perfect (or good for that matter). The throw didn't have to be perfect, it just had to get there. When you are as bad of a hitter as he is, you better be a VERY good defender. Not only not make errors but have actual range. Alex Gonzalez of the BoSox can get away with being a bad hitter because he is a AWESOME defender. Royce is a terrible hitter, and an average fielder at BEST.

When the trade went down we all heard this from Scrappy Narron:


Reds manager Jerry Narron was particularly excited about picking up Clayton, a solid defensive shortstop and noted clubhouse leader whom Narron worked with in Texas.

“He’s a veteran guy [who] knows how to play the game correctly,” Narron said of Clayton. “One thing we’ve got to do to win here is to make the routine play [and] play solid defense consistently, and Royce has proven that he can do that.”



Since coming to the Reds he has been a bad defender and has made some mental gafs. So much for "knowing how to play the game."

/End rant.

reds44
08-02-2006, 03:28 AM
Just to add on maybe there is alittle hope.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/080206redsweb.html


"The leadoff base on balls hurt, Freel made a great effort in the corner, but just not turning that double play really hurt us," said manager Jerry Narron.

We can only hope Narron gives Clayton a day, week, month, or hopefully ever to think about it.

Ron Madden
08-02-2006, 04:50 AM
Errors are a part of baseball. kinda like life.

We all make mistakes, that's why they put that rubber on the end of pencils.

God knows everyone is not Marty Brennamen. ;)

MrCinatit
08-02-2006, 07:58 AM
It would be nice to see Narron treat Clayton and perhaps Freel the same as he did Edwin and Deno after they both made costly errors.
Unfortunately, Narron will not do that. Clayton will be back to start again, as will Freel.

GAC
08-02-2006, 08:41 AM
If he's on the edge, then someone needs to finish the job and push him off of it. ;)

When having to choose between the two....I simply do not understand why they aren't giving Castro the majority of the playing time at SS. Maybe they will now; but I doubt it.

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2006, 08:52 AM
I am in no way-shape-or-form a Clayton-defender, BUT... that was nowhere near a "routine play or throw". Sounds like someone has more against Royce Clayton than that one throw... "Please Royce we have known for 12 years now that you aren't perfect (or good for that matter)."

I also do not blame Royce Clayton for all those hits (17 to be exact!) that the Dodgers got off Arroyo and the bullpen.

I also do not blame Royce Clayton for a dropped flyball in RF by Ryan Freel.

Tough play for Royce on that throw. Tough throw for any SS on that play. We sometimes forget that all shortstops are human beings and are not perfect. We definitely know this to be true as we have seen two other left-side infielders (FL & EE) on our fav team make numerous bad throws this season (on more routine plays)... only they were more likely to throw it into the 10th row of seats rather than pulling Hatte off the bag.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 10:07 AM
We can only hope Narron gives Clayton a day, week, month, or hopefully ever to think about it.Hate to tell you but your hope and optimism is unjustified. Narron has already shown, time and time again, what type of player he prefers to throw his lot in with. Narron's going to go with the veteran who prepares the right and plays the right way. In the case of Clayton, it happens to be a player who no longer has the ability to help a team win, but he will continue to be the everyday SS.

Chip R
08-02-2006, 10:10 AM
I am in no way-shape-or-form a Clayton-defender, BUT... that was nowhere near a "routine play or throw". Sounds like someone has more against Royce Clayton than that one throw... "Please Royce we have known for 12 years now that you aren't perfect (or good for that matter)."

I also do not blame Royce Clayton for all those hits (17 to be exact!) that the Dodgers got off Arroyo and the bullpen.

I also do not blame Royce Clayton for a dropped flyball in RF by Ryan Freel.

Tough play for Royce on that throw. Tough throw for any SS on that play. We sometimes forget that all shortstops are human beings and are not perfect. We definitely know this to be true as we have seen two other left-side infielders (FL & EE) on our fav team make numerous bad throws this season (on more routine plays)... only they were more likely to throw it into the 10th row of seats rather than pulling Hatte off the bag.

It probably wasn't a routine play but it seemed like a play he should have made. He got the ball there but it was too high. But that was exactly the kind of play that Lopez would screw up with regularity. That misplay Lopez made in DET wasn't a routine play either. Lopez had to go in the hole to get to that ball and the throw was somewhat off and the runner was safe. Everyone makes errors but Clayton is making the kind of misplays that Lopez would make. Plays like that don't show up in the box score because it wasn't an error. It also doesn't reflect on range factor or zone rating either. I get that Narron and the front office want good defensive players out there. That's great but all I'm seeing out at SS is an older version of FeLo who can't hit as well. If you're going to pay lip service to defense, just put Castro out there.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 10:13 AM
If you're going to pay lip service to defense, just put Castro out there.and put someone that can actually run in CF.

Chip R
08-02-2006, 10:52 AM
and put someone that can actually run in CF.

Now that's just crazy talk. ;)

flyer85
08-02-2006, 10:56 AM
Now that's just crazy talk. ;)I've been known to do that.

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2006, 10:57 AM
It probably wasn't a routine play but it seemed like a play he should have made. He got the ball there but it was too high.

I agree, Chip. I should have stated that... it was a play that a ML player should make. Not a routine play, but one that a ML'er should make. If he does, the inning is over. It would have been 5-4 after that play as it was... still no reason to allow 5 more to cross the plate after that play. Still no reason to lay the bats down after that one play.

Just a bad night in many ways and a hard game to swallow as a REDS fan. However, I do not lay all the blame at one player's feet. I also would not start a thread to blame one guy. There was lots of grief to be spread around. Lots of bad pitching, lots of bad D and lots of guys who could not brag about their hitting. A real team effort to lose that game.

Chip R
08-02-2006, 11:04 AM
Just a bad night in many ways and a hard game to swallow as a REDS fan. However, I do not lay all the blame at one player's feet. I also would not start a thread to blame one guy. There was lots of grief to be spread around. Lots of bad pitching, lots of bad D and lots of guys who could not brag about their hitting. A real team effort to lose that game.

I agree that it wasn't just Clayton's fault. It's easy to lay the blame on one player or one play. Clayton messed up but the bullpen gave up the hits after that. The Reds lost as a team last night.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 11:10 AM
I agree that it wasn't just Clayton's fault. It's easy to lay the blame on one player or one play. Clayton messed up but the bullpen gave up the hits after that. The Reds lost as a team last night.the problem with Clayton is that there is no reason to believe he will contribute anything useful to a winning team.

In his more youthful days he was at has best a marginal player. About two years ago he went from marginal to worthless, happens to a lot of guys who hit their mid 30s. It's amazing the Reds couldn't see it before he got here and have continued to refuse to acknowledge the obvious since he has.

Royce may be a great guy and good in the clubhouse but his days as anything resembling an everyday SS ended a few years back when his defensive skills eroded.

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2006, 11:15 AM
It's easy to blame it all on Clayton. Clayton is the 1 player right now where all the hate is going to.......exhibit A of WK/JN "play the veterans no matter what" mantra. Clayton needs to hit .400 and never make an error in order for anyone to give him any slack. BUT heck....he is not even going to hit .300...let alone have an OBP of over .300.

It is very frustrating to watch.......and nothing is done about it.

If Pete Rose can move to 3B....then why can't Phiilips move to SS and RA to 2B. Easy to do..... but if RA's range is so bad...... can you imagine how bad it would be at 2B? You certainly cannot play him at SS. Only way to hide his bad range is 3B.

Also...... i do not think Phillips helped that play last night. While Clayton was tentative..... on the play....it seems he was so, maybe beacuse he expected BP to be coming to the bag a lot quicker? He could have tossed the ball to him then...and BP could have made the play.

He almost seemed caught as to what to do.......if he runs to the bag without hesitation....i think he gets off a better throw. Since he did not...he rushed his throw and threw very awkwardly towards 1B.

I can see the pro-Clayton people in the stands...booth....FO.....as maybe trying to shift the blame towards BP in some way.....or the umpire.

GAC
08-02-2006, 11:15 AM
I say we run in to town.... rape all the cattle, and shoot all the women! :lol:

Kc61
08-02-2006, 11:36 AM
Forget last night, Clayton has not shown much as a Red so far. It really would make more sense to use Castro at shortstop for the rest of this season. If Narron is really looking for steady shortstop play, Castro is one of the steadiest I've seen. Either one would be an 8th place hitter and I'm not convinced Clayton's bat is better at this point in his career.

The two big problems with the Kearns/Lopez trade are whether Majewski is good enough to justify the trade and whether the Reds can fill the middle infield without Lopez. Hopefully, Majic will come around. But a new player will be necessary next year in the middle infield to replace FeLo.

BRM
08-02-2006, 01:03 PM
Let's forget offense for a moment since neither one of the Reds current SS candidates can hit. Who's the better defender, Castro or Clayton?

flyer85
08-02-2006, 01:09 PM
Let's forget offense for a moment since neither one of the Reds current SS candidates can hit. Who's the better defender, Castro or Clayton?objective data would say they are very close. Since they have been with the Reds and subjectively Castro without a doubt gets the nod.

RANDY IN INDY
08-02-2006, 01:44 PM
I hear a lot about Castro's lack of range, but in all honesty, Clayton is not getting to a lot of balls that need to be caught, particularly up the middle. I think Castro gets to a few more of those balls, and I honestly think that Castro will hit better than Clayton, which isnt' saying much. If I have my choice between the two right now, I take Castro.

BRM
08-02-2006, 01:47 PM
If I have my choice between the two right now, I take Castro.

Same here. I mean, it can't hurt anything to try it for a week or so.

dsmith421
08-02-2006, 01:49 PM
If I have my choice between the two right now, I take Castro.

Every day and twice on Sundays.

I would prefer to have a shortstop option that can hit AND field, but for the time being we might as well play the guy who can do one of those two things.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 01:49 PM
Same here. I mean, it can't hurt anything to try it for a week or so.but to do so would be admitting they really screwed this up.

dabvu2498
08-02-2006, 01:50 PM
Same here. I mean, it can't hurt anything to try it for a week or so.
That's almost exactly what I thought when I heard we got Clayton. What was I thinking??? :runaway:

BRM
08-02-2006, 01:52 PM
but to do so would be admitting they really screwed this up.

I think sliding BP to SS would admitting a screw up. Making Castro the starter and Clayton the backup wouldn't necessarily admit anything. Well, Kriv and Narron did glow with excitement at the thought of Royce being the SS though.

BoydsOfSummer
08-02-2006, 02:05 PM
Play Edwin at SS. I bet he has more range there than anybody we have playing there. And it's a given he wields a mightier stick.

Sea Ray
08-02-2006, 02:06 PM
It probably wasn't a routine play but it seemed like a play he should have made. He got the ball there but it was too high. But that was exactly the kind of play that Lopez would screw up with regularity. That misplay Lopez made in DET wasn't a routine play either. Lopez had to go in the hole to get to that ball and the throw was somewhat off and the runner was safe. Everyone makes errors but Clayton is making the kind of misplays that Lopez would make. Plays like that don't show up in the box score because it wasn't an error. It also doesn't reflect on range factor or zone rating either. I get that Narron and the front office want good defensive players out there. That's great but all I'm seeing out at SS is an older version of FeLo who can't hit as well. If you're going to pay lip service to defense, just put Castro out there.

Best post I've read in awhile. Personally I was glad to see Felo's defense leave but I have also been disappointed in what I've seen from Clayton. At this point I am all for putting Castro in there for a few games.

Cedric
08-02-2006, 02:08 PM
Best post I've read in awhile. Personally I was glad to see Felo's defense leave but I have also been disappointed in what I've seen from Clayton. At this point I am all for putting Castro in there for a few games.

I'm all for Olmedo at this point.

I could handle Olmedo/Castro platoon.

I don't think moving Phillips is the right choice at this time, but I wouldn't hate that move either.

flyer85
08-02-2006, 02:32 PM
I don't think moving Phillips is the right choice at this time, but I wouldn't hate that move either.seems as if that decision has been made already and the Reds don't feel comfortable moving him to SS at this time. Having not seem him play SS I have no basis to disagree with their decision. What is obvious is the Clayton experiment is turning into a failure.

Chip R
08-02-2006, 02:33 PM
Maybe Royce should switch to decaf.

Sea Ray
08-02-2006, 02:40 PM
Also...... i do not think Phillips helped that play last night. While Clayton was tentative..... on the play....it seems he was so, maybe beacuse he expected BP to be coming to the bag a lot quicker? He could have tossed the ball to him then...and BP could have made the play.

He almost seemed caught as to what to do.......if he runs to the bag without hesitation....i think he gets off a better throw. Since he did not...he rushed his throw and threw very awkwardly towards 1B.

I can see the pro-Clayton people in the stands...booth....FO.....as maybe trying to shift the blame towards BP in some way.....or the umpire.

I think this indecision was due to the unfamiliarity of these two working together. And that is the danger of moving BP to SS at this late date. You don't want to juggle too much at this point. If you do, you're asking for more boo boos like last night.

Redsland
08-02-2006, 02:57 PM
Is Tony Womack available?

Matt700wlw
08-02-2006, 03:49 PM
Every day and twice on Sundays.



No double-headers please :D

dsmith421
08-02-2006, 04:49 PM
No double-headers please :D

Hey Marty, do you have a shirt on right now?

Matt700wlw
08-02-2006, 04:50 PM
Hey Marty, do you have a shirt on right now?

Last time I checked. :lol:

KronoRed
08-02-2006, 05:13 PM
Is Tony Womack available?
Yep.

Womack > Clayton

;)

reds44
08-02-2006, 05:37 PM
Hey Marty, do you have a shirt on right now?
:lol: :lol:

flyer85
08-02-2006, 05:41 PM
It wasn't me that shoved him, somebody else did it.

Oh, I thought you said ledge.

Reds1
08-02-2006, 06:04 PM
why not play Castro. It's not like Clayton any better hitter and not even close to the defense ability of Castro. I guess I'm on the play Castro bandwagon like Reds44 wants EE. :)

RedFanAlways1966
08-03-2006, 08:55 AM
Nice HR by Royce. :evil:

RANDY IN INDY
08-03-2006, 09:22 AM
Probably better enjoy that one if past history means anything.

RedFanAlways1966
08-03-2006, 09:26 AM
Probably better enjoy that one if past history means anything.

Since I celebrate Christmas every year, Randy, I figure I should celebrate a Royce HR... those once a year things are reason to celebrate!

:)

RANDY IN INDY
08-03-2006, 10:20 AM
Absolutely! Every time I see Clayton or hear his name, I think of when he played for the Giants, and Chris Berman calling him "Royce-a-roni Clayton, the San Francisco treat." That's such a good nickname, I think he needs to go back to the Giants. Whataya think?:pray: :evil:

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2006, 09:51 AM
Since I celebrate Christmas every year, Randy, I figure I should celebrate a Royce HR... those once a year things are reason to celebrate!

:)

Christmas came again, RFA66! Celebrate some more!

RFS62
08-05-2006, 10:16 AM
Is Tony Womack available?



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: