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View Full Version : Narron wants to play EE and Rich...



Matt700wlw
08-03-2006, 02:00 PM
Reds manager Jerry Narron knows what Joe Reds Fan wants. He had Edwin Encarnacion in the lineup Wednesday night against the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Playing Encarnacion has become the cause of the moment for e-mailers and talk show callers.

Encarnacion has become a backup to Rich Aurilia, despite the fact Encarnacion went into Wednesday hitting .375 with a home run and six RBI in his last 11 games. (He went 0-for-4 Wednesday.) He also was leading the team in average with runners in scoring position at .319.


Aurilia is hitting .357 with three home runs and seven RBI since the All-Star break.

"I'd like to be able to play both of them," Narron said. "They both give us real good at-bats."

Narron does play both of them against left-handers, with Aurilia moving to first.

Narron, however, hasn't played Aurilia at second or shortstop lately to get him, Encarnacion and Scott Hatteberg in the lineup at the same time.

Brandon Phillips has been stellar defensively at second and has put his hitting slump behind him.


But the reason Aurilia has gotten the bulk of the playing time at third is defense. He has six errors; Encarnacion has 15.

Narron said as much when addressing the club's defense Wednesday.

"With Richie at third, we've got a solid guy at third," Narron said. "I know Eddie works hard. He's out there every day with early work."



-john fay

reds44
08-03-2006, 02:04 PM
Then why doesn't he do it?

oneupper
08-03-2006, 02:04 PM
You can call me JOE

oneupper
08-03-2006, 02:05 PM
Then why doesn't he do it?

Because he thinks he can't leave TWO SS on the bench. It might explode or something.

Tom Servo
08-03-2006, 02:08 PM
Narron, however, hasn't played Aurilia at second or shortstop lately to get him, Encarnacion and Scott Hatteberg in the lineup at the same time.

It's right there in front of him, and yet he doesn't seem to see it. :bash:

Joseph
08-03-2006, 02:12 PM
Narron very very much seems like the guy who goes around saying he knows what he's doing even if no one else believes it and will let the playoff spot slip away to prove it.

zombie-a-go-go
08-03-2006, 02:16 PM
Obviously Aurilia < Clayton.

oneupper
08-03-2006, 02:16 PM
Narron had a blow up with "vox populi" already when he made Coffey the closer admittedly because of "fan pressure".

He won't be swayed again. :rolleyes:
He knows better :rolleyes:

BRM
08-03-2006, 02:21 PM
It's obvious by now that Narron prefers statues that can make the routine plays over younger, athletic players with range that have throwing issues.

flyer85
08-03-2006, 02:24 PM
Then why doesn't he do it?rhetorical question

Jr's Boy
08-03-2006, 02:25 PM
Put Aurilia at short and Ed E back at third where he belongs.

oneupper
08-03-2006, 02:28 PM
Maybe this will help Narron decide:

2006 REDS:
Vs. LHP .883 OPS
Vs. RHP .760 OPS

The lineup vs. RHP needs help...urgent!

KronoRed
08-03-2006, 03:06 PM
Then why doesn't he do it?
Because he is not going to send Clayton to the bench, he's the Narron guy at SS, I have to wonder what went on in the Nats trade, did they they say "Take Clayton" or did we say "We NEED Clayton"?

Reds-aholic
08-03-2006, 03:08 PM
In the car this morning the 2 angry guys, gave a few fielding stats comparing the two in the last 30 days. Did someone else hear this because I dont remember what they said?

Red Leader
08-03-2006, 03:10 PM
Because he is not going to send Clayton to the bench, he's the Narron guy at SS, I have to wonder what went on in the Nats trade, did they they say "Take Clayton" or did we say "We NEED Clayton"?

Personally, I'm surprised Cristian Guzman wasn't discussed...ex Twin and all...

TeamBoone
08-03-2006, 03:17 PM
What he failed to comment on... EE has had only one error since the ASB (granted, he hasn't played much in that time period).

Strikes Out Looking
08-03-2006, 03:18 PM
Some people think inside the box, some people think outside the box.

When Sparky Anderson asked Pete Rose to move to 3rd base to allow George Foster to play everyday, he was thinking outside the box.

When Bob Howsam named a little known minor league manager named Sparky Anderson to manage the Reds, he was thinking outside the box.

If Jerry Narron would move Brandon Phillips to SS, have Rich Aurilia play 2b and allow EE to play 3b everyday, his thinking would be, at least for him, outside the box. However, the current Reds manager is so inside the box, that this idea is way to revolutionary to him.

The Reds will only consistently win when one of two things happen (they may stumble onto some 85+ win seasons nevertheless):
1. They accidently have a lineup that can score at will and pitchers that have an era of 3.5 or less; or
2. They have management that isn't afraid to gamble on new ideas and younger players.

Johnny Footstool
08-03-2006, 03:19 PM
Personally, I'm surprised Cristian Guzman wasn't discussed...ex Twin and all...

I thought of that, but was too scared to speak it, for fear it might come true.

KronoRed
08-03-2006, 03:22 PM
Personally, I'm surprised Cristian Guzman wasn't discussed...ex Twin and all...
I'm afraid

flyer85
08-03-2006, 03:25 PM
In the car this morning the 2 angry guys, gave a few fielding stats comparing the two in the last 30 days. Did someone else hear this because I dont remember what they said?that over the last 30 days each had one error. EE had 26 chances and RA 33 even though RA had started 14 games at 3b to 9 for EE. The point was that the "defense reason" just doesn't wash anymore.

The real reason is that Naroon is more comfortable playing the vets.

reds44
08-03-2006, 03:27 PM
that over the last 30 days each had one error. EE had 26 chances and RA 33 even though RA had started 14 games at 3b to 9 for EE. The point was that the "defense reason" just doesn't wash anymore.

The real reason is that Naroon is more comfortable playing the vets.
Say hello to my sig!

reds44
08-03-2006, 03:30 PM
The must frusterating part is because he is in a slump (0 for his last 13) it gives Narron another excuse to put him on the bench.

When you only play every 3 or 4 days it is hard to get in a groove.

MaineRed
08-03-2006, 03:47 PM
Wasn't Edwin basically the everyday third basemen when the seaosn started? Where the heck was Narron's love for vets at that point? Dunn and Kearns, got nearly every start in the OF. Phillips has been the everyday second baseman, even with Aurillia, Womack and Freel around, all of whom are more vet than BP. Coffey, our youngest reliever was put into the closer role and Narron has had no problem playing Ross and taking time away from Larue, the most vet catcher we have.

This whole thing with Narron being in love with vets is hogwash. Everyone says it but there are very few examples of it actually being true. I don't want to hear about Hatte. He deserves to play. Aurillia has been producing as well, both on D and with tthe stick. Clayton is the one guy I wish were not playing but the only other answer that makes even a lick of sense is Castro and face it, that is not going to stop the cries that Narron is in love with vets.

MaineRed
08-03-2006, 03:51 PM
When you only play every 3 or 4 days it is hard to get in a groove.

But yet when Edwin was producing under these same exact circumstances it was more reason to play him.

You guys have been saying this for weeks. On one hand we hear how Edwin never plays. Then we hear that when he does play, all he does is produce. But then as soon as he stops producing it is Narron's fault.

Where was the credit for Narron when Edwin was swinging a hot bat, and sitting at the same time?

I knew Narron would be blamed as soon as Edwin got cold again but I waited and waited for some praise to be thrown towards Narron for keeping Edwin sharp when he was swinging a hot bat. I'm still waiting.

boognish
08-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Let us not forget, however, that "vox populi" had a loud contingent suggesting EE's permanent home was at 1B because Mr. Hat didn't enough RBI...

It is baffling to me that Narron cannot use his powers of observation while EE is working out before the game to witness the self-evident...EE has better range and a stronger arm than the current 3B starter.

This is, of course, setting aside the disparity of nearly 200 points of OPS against right-handers (more if comparing EE to Clayton and not Aurilia, who hasn't embarrassed himself this season), and the near-absence of platoon splits on EE's 2006 baseball card, which experience has shown does not register with Jerry.

MaineRed
08-03-2006, 04:09 PM
If Clayton hits more HR than Dunn in the next 26 at bats does that mean he should be the #4 hitter in the line-up?

Didn't think so.

So why does Edwin fieldingg 25 out of 26 balls prove anything?

Look, I love Edwin and think he can play but I don't get some of the logic behind why some think he should play.

reds44, are you going to admit that Narron's defense excuse does hold up if Edwin has an error or two in the next few games?

My money says you'll go back to bagging on how bad Rich is against RH pitchers.

reds44
08-03-2006, 04:34 PM
If Clayton hits more HR than Dunn in the next 26 at bats does that mean he should be the #4 hitter in the line-up?

Didn't think so.

So why does Edwin fieldingg 25 out of 26 balls prove anything?

Look, I love Edwin and think he can play but I don't get some of the logic behind why some think he should play.

reds44, are you going to admit that Narron's defense excuse does hold up if Edwin has an error or two in the next few games?

My money says you'll go back to bagging on how bad Rich is against RH pitchers.
I never bring up Rich's numbers against RHP. He has been a solid player for us this year.

He just shouldn't start over Edwin.

UPRedsFan
08-03-2006, 04:42 PM
2 glaring problems seem to be jumping out over this losing streak. Lack of offense and Clayton's underwhelming defense. Against a tough pitcher where runs will be at a premium I would start Castro at short. Otherwise Aurillia should go to short against rhp's when Hatte is in there. Give the offense a boost with both RA and EE in the lineup and don't lose much if anything on defense from Clayton.

bounty37h
08-03-2006, 05:00 PM
Some people think inside the box, some people think outside the box.

When Sparky Anderson asked Pete Rose to move to 3rd base to allow George Foster to play everyday, he was thinking outside the box.

When Bob Howsam named a little known minor league manager named Sparky Anderson to manage the Reds, he was thinking outside the box.

If Jerry Narron would move Brandon Phillips to SS, have Rich Aurilia play 2b and allow EE to play 3b everyday, his thinking would be, at least for him, outside the box. However, the current Reds manager is so inside the box, that this idea is way to revolutionary to him.

The Reds will only consistently win when one of two things happen (they may stumble onto some 85+ win seasons nevertheless):
1. They accidently have a lineup that can score at will and pitchers that have an era of 3.5 or less; or
2. They have management that isn't afraid to gamble on new ideas and younger players.

Wow, its all that easy, I cant believe the FO hasnt knocked down all your door's to get you as our next manager...

Ltlabner
08-03-2006, 05:21 PM
Wow, its all that easy, I cant believe the FO hasnt knocked down all your door's to get you as our next manager...

Totally unneccessary swipe. Not needed at all.

CC, you are right. While I think Narron has overall done a good job this year (minus his management of the pitching staff) he definatley sees the game through a very specific frame of reference and I think it's hard for him to see outside of this. Split up the lefties, always keep the RH/LH pitching matchups at all costs, don't pull the pitcher until a certian period of time, etc are all evidence of this.

I think the EE/RA (and BP move to SS, for that matter) may spring from his thinking that you don't make "big adjustments" midstream. I'm not defending or attacking this position as it's been hashed to death. But I'm guessing he fears this would be too "radical" at this point in the season, that the adjustment time of switching would produce errors that would negate any additional runs, etc. Again, not saying this is right, but what he may be thinking.

Narrons a good transition guy because he thinks very rigidly and doesn't deviate. That imposes some form or order durring what can be a chaotic time. But to really get to that next level in the future, I agree that either Jerry has to think way outisde "his personal box" or we have someone new.

Redhook
08-03-2006, 05:44 PM
Clayton is the one guy I wish were not playing but the only other answer that makes even a lick of sense is Castro and face it, that is not going to stop the cries that Narron is in love with vets.

Not true. Narron could easily have a closed-door conversation with Brandon Phillips to see if he would be comfortable playing SS because it's best for the team. Phillips has played a ton of shortstop, it wouldn't be hard for him to make the transition. Maybe a couple of games. I think Phillips would be all for it. Shortstop is the key position on the field, I think a young, confident, athletic player would be all over it.

MaineRed
08-03-2006, 05:50 PM
Moving BP to short is going to force someone to move to second. So you want two current infielders to move to new positions, at this point in the season?

Just doesn't seem like a recipe for success. I think we need to keep Aurillia away from the middle infield and same with Freel. I just don't see the point of trying to fix SS while making a hole at second, especially defensively. Aurillia would probably end up hurt trying to turn a DP.

Bad idea.

Redhook
08-03-2006, 05:52 PM
But yet when Edwin was producing under these same exact circumstances it was more reason to play him.

You guys have been saying this for weeks. On one hand we hear how Edwin never plays. Then we hear that when he does play, all he does is produce. But then as soon as he stops producing it is Narron's fault.

Where was the credit for Narron when Edwin was swinging a hot bat, and sitting at the same time?

I knew Narron would be blamed as soon as Edwin got cold again but I waited and waited for some praise to be thrown towards Narron for keeping Edwin sharp when he was swinging a hot bat. I'm still waiting.

Jerry? Jerry? Is that you? ;)

I think the bottom line is this. The best 8 Reds are not on the field all at once. They need to be. Narron, as manager, has to find a way to get them out there. EE (3rd), BP (SS), RA (2nd). It's not that hard. Plenty of players have switched positions in the past, and plenty will switch in the future. It happens. Phillips has played SS before and is very gifted...he won't miss a beat going over there.

MaineRed
08-03-2006, 05:58 PM
Yeah, I'm Jerry Narron because I don't argue with everything he does.

RA at second isn't that hard, it also isn't the place for Rich. He is not a middle infielder at this point. Not sure what makes any of you think that he is. The Reds move Phillips and they are going to be in trouble at second. I love Ryan Freel but he too is not a middle infielder. He is an outfielder who can give you a start or two at second or third.

Aurillia doesn't have a lot of range and he is not athletic, the two things you need to be a good middle infielder. Its amazing to me that we hate on Clayton because of his limited range and the solution is to effectively replace him with someone worse (on D).

I don't doubt that Phillips could play SS. But I do have doubts if Aurillia can play second and turn double plays and get out of the way at the same time. I have this vision of him throwing flat footed from second and getting his knee blown out. The best second basemen can jump and throw. Anyone think Rich can do that?

Redhook
08-03-2006, 06:09 PM
Aurillia doesn't have a lot of range and he is not athletic, the two things you need to be a good middle infielder. Its amazing to me that we hate on Clayton because of his limited range and the solution is to effectively replace him with someone worse (on D).

I don't doubt that Phillips could play SS. But I do have doubts if Aurillia can play second and turn double plays and get out of the way at the same time. I have this vision of him throwing flat footed from second and getting his knee blown out. The best second basemen can jump and throw. Anyone think Rich can do that?

We would get weaker at 2nd, that's for sure. But, I believe we'd have an upgrade at SS. Clayton is not very good. Overall, I think the defense would be a little worse. That being said, I think EE's offensive numbers compared to Clayton's would outweigh the defensive shortcomings.

Redsland
08-03-2006, 06:26 PM
Moving BP to short is going to force someone to move to second. So you want two current infielders to move to new positions, at this point in the season?
Freel to second, Deno to right.

fisch11
08-03-2006, 07:48 PM
Shortstop is the most important defensive position. Moving your most athletic player (BP)to that position makes alot of sense....especially since he is a natural SS playing 2nd.

REDSEER
08-03-2006, 07:54 PM
Freel to second, Deno to right.
I was one who thought that Deno would do fine when he came up to the bigs, but he has been dissapointing so far in his ML stint.....at this point in the season, I would rather have Clayton in the lineup than Deno.....although it's painfully obvious that everyone wants to see

Hat at first
Aurilia at second
BP at short
EE at third

but since Narron will not do that, I think he should put Aurilia at short, the position he has played his whole career......

Think about this lineup::eek:
Freel RF
Hat 1B
Jr. CF
Dunn LF
Aurilia SS
EE 3B
BP 2B
Ross C

No pitcher is going to want to face that lineup on any given night.....there is no weak spot in that order....

BRM
08-04-2006, 09:41 AM
I was one who thought that Deno would do fine when he came up to the bigs, but he has been dissapointing so far in his ML stint

He hasn't been given a chance yet. He's only had 35 at-bats.

fielder's choice
08-04-2006, 10:19 AM
Freel to second, Deno to right.

I would much rather have Aurilia's, Edwin's, and Hatteburg's bat in there over Deno's. Phillips to SS. Aurilia to 2B.

TeamBoone
08-04-2006, 11:13 AM
EDDIE AGAIN: Narron started Aurilia at second base. That got Aurilia, Encarnacion and Hatte- berg all in the lineup.

"We're just giving Brandon (Phillips) a day off," Narron said. "He's played a lot. This way we've got a chance to play Edwin possibly three straight days. It has absolutely zero to do with anything Brandon's done."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060804/SPT04/608040442/1071

fearofpopvol1
08-04-2006, 11:23 PM
Folks, they're not going to move Brandon Phillips to SS in the middle of the season!! It will NOT happen. He's playing too well there and moving from 2B to SS is not an easy transition and definitely not while we're in the middle of a playoff race. Natural position or not, Brandon has logged ONE game at SS in the majors. That's just asking for more mental mistakes and errors. It won't happen.