PDA

View Full Version : Is The Bullpen Any Better Now?



TheBigLebowski
08-04-2006, 12:07 AM
Seriously.

Burns, Hammond, White & Co may not have been good, but it didn't cost us Kearns/Lopez/Wagner/Ward/Etc to employ those guys, and they charged a helluva lot less to blow ballgames.

Majewski, Cormier, etc...ridiculous. Saddest part is that we can never get to the ONE guy who appears to have been a good acquisition in Guardado b/c we installed him as the closer and these Keystone Cops (the offense/defense is also complicit in this) can never deliver him a lead.

Krivsky's paying the piper for the great breaks he got on the Phillips/Ross/Hatte deals. I'd undo each deal with the exception of the Chick/Guardado trade if I had the power to make it happen.

Marc D
08-04-2006, 01:00 AM
I don't think it really matters if its fixed or not. I said way back when, and still believe, that this team has losing so deeply ingrained in it that they will find a way to not get it done.

In May we had the best month of pitching in years so the offense tanked. If the offense and pitching are ok the defense will get us. Mix in frequently poor base running, long lapses in plate discipline and the whole Narron laundry list and its all pretty well covered.

I think the team DNA got a cleansing in the AK/FeLo deal no matter how we all feel about it in terms of talent for talent, but I think they still have a long way to go.

CTA513
08-04-2006, 01:03 AM
Someone posted stats of the bullpen before and after the trade and the after trade ERA was like 1.5-2 runs lower.

redsrule2500
08-04-2006, 01:04 AM
The post 2 above me is rediculous. Losing engrained in a team? Come on.

Anyways, yes I believe this bullpen is greatly improved. Sure - it's just probably average now, but that's a lot better than it was at the beginning of the season. The offense hasn't taken that much of a hit, but is rather in a slump. I remember back in May and June we had two offensive slumps of about a week or so. These offensive slumps were not permanent, and I think it's stupid to think that just losing Lopez (a .260 batter) and Kearns is going to do something this drastic to the offense.

The bullpen is improved, no doubt. Hopefully the Reds offensive slumping and Arroyo slumping will come to a halt so that the Reds can see the bullpen actively helping to gather some wins.

Afterall, the Cards have lost 7 straight. We are still right in the division hunt, and that's something.

Marc D
08-04-2006, 01:17 AM
The post 2 above me is rediculous. Losing engrained in a team? Come on.


So they have won so much the last few years it makes my opinion "rediculous?"

How about you just say your piece without being so condescending all the time or just PM me if you prefer to hurl insults. Baseless sniping like this from those who feel we shouldn't question this team, its manager or GM is what's rediculous. Debate the point or just leave it alone.

redsrule2500
08-04-2006, 01:20 AM
So they have won so much the last few years it makes my opinion "rediculous?"

How about you just say your piece without being so condescending all the time or just PM me if you prefer to hurl insults. Baseless sniping like this from those who feel we shouldn't question this team, its manager or GM is what's rediculous. Debate the point or just leave it alone.

If the 2003 team was still on the field, I would agree. This is a different team.

TheBigLebowski
08-04-2006, 01:22 AM
There's something to be said for a culture of losing. Read Bronson's quote when he was traded to Cincy.

You can't just cure losing. You have to beat it off. It needs to know that it is not welcome here. Thus far, we've done only enough to let it know that it is only welcome now and then. His visits have been far too frequent lately.

MrCinatit
08-04-2006, 01:24 AM
I don't think it really matters if its fixed or not. I said way back when, and still believe, that this team has losing so deeply ingrained in it that they will find a way to not get it done.
In May we had the best month of pitching in years so the offense tanked. If the offense and pitching are ok the defense will get us. Mix in frequently poor base running, long lapses in plate discipline and the whole Narron laundry list and its all pretty well covered.
I think the team DNA got a cleansing in the AK/FeLo deal no matter how we all feel about it in terms of talent for talent, but I think they still have a long way to go.

I could not have said it better myself.
I believe the "this is a fun place to play" mentality we saw early last year did some damage to this ballclub. Yeah, the players should have fun - when winning.
They should be completely miserable and hungry when losing.

KronoRed
08-04-2006, 04:08 AM
There's something to be said for a culture of losing. Read Bronson's quote when he was traded to Cincy.

You can't just cure losing. You have to beat it off. It needs to know that it is not welcome here. Thus far, we've done only enough to let it know that it is only welcome now and then. His visits have been far too frequent lately.
It will take a team fighting its way to a winning season to change it, bringing in 25 guys from a winning team might work as well but it's expensive.

KoryMac5
08-04-2006, 09:54 AM
Maybe if it is sooo engrained the Reds should hire a sports psychiatrist like that one from the Natural.

The mind is a strange thing, men.



We must begin by asking it...



..."What is losing?"



Losing is a disease...



...as contagious as polio.



Losing is a disease...



...as contagious as syphilis.



Losing is a disease...



...as contagious as bubonic plague...



... attacking one...



... but infecting all.



But curable.



Now, I want you to imagine...



...you are on a ship at sea...



...on a vast...



You wanna sit down and pay attention?



...gently rocking.



Get back in here!



Gently rocking.



Gently rocking.



Gently rocking.

flyer85
08-04-2006, 10:23 AM
Yes, but only marginally. What the Reds really needed was some guys that could miss bats (like Saito and Broxton for the Dodgers), they didn't get any.

PuffyPig
08-04-2006, 10:30 AM
The bullpen is substantially better, but remember how bad it was before.

Joseph
08-04-2006, 10:33 AM
I hate to be blunt but Kearns and Lopez aren't coming back.

Get over it.

Seriously.

This team is much better off now than with them on the team. OF bats and poor fielding SS's are a dime a dozen. I'm sorry we aren't losing game 9-6 now and instead are losing 4-3 or whatever, but Kearns and Felo aren't cowboys and this Reds team isn't an outlaw that they need to tame.

It's a baseball team. Slumps happen. Team wide slumps happen. In a few days it will be over.

Somehow I doubt this complaining will end anytime soon though, even after the slump is over.

Blame Narrons lineup construction, not Krivsky for doing exactly what everyone on this board asked for, getting more pitching help and jettisoning the riff raff we called a bull pen the first 3 months of the season. Did you expect it to happen without a cost? As time has passed this trade has seemed less and less lopsided. Bray has had all of one rough outing that I recall. How many have Kearns and Lopez had in Washington? I wager its more than one each. In fact they stunk the first couple weeks there.

Yeah, Clayton is horrid, but this deal was the only way the Reds could dream about the post season, if anyone thinks differently then they are being a bit delusional.

Don't forget, Rick White....don't forget Mike Burns....don't forget Esteban Yan....don't forget Chris Hammond. Where were those horses going to take us? Not the wild card, not the post season.

I'm frustrated too, I really am. But soon they'll win 8 of 10 and this will be forgotten.

TheBigLebowski
08-04-2006, 11:21 AM
I hate to be blunt but Kearns and Lopez aren't coming back.

Get over it.

Seriously.

This team is much better off now than with them on the team. OF bats and poor fielding SS's are a dime a dozen. I'm sorry we aren't losing game 9-6 now and instead are losing 4-3 or whatever, but Kearns and Felo aren't cowboys and this Reds team isn't an outlaw that they need to tame.

It's a baseball team. Slumps happen. Team wide slumps happen. In a few days it will be over.

Somehow I doubt this complaining will end anytime soon though, even after the slump is over.

Blame Narrons lineup construction, not Krivsky for doing exactly what everyone on this board asked for, getting more pitching help and jettisoning the riff raff we called a bull pen the first 3 months of the season. Did you expect it to happen without a cost? As time has passed this trade has seemed less and less lopsided. Bray has had all of one rough outing that I recall. How many have Kearns and Lopez had in Washington? I wager its more than one each. In fact they stunk the first couple weeks there.

Yeah, Clayton is horrid, but this deal was the only way the Reds could dream about the post season, if anyone thinks differently then they are being a bit delusional.

Don't forget, Rick White....don't forget Mike Burns....don't forget Esteban Yan....don't forget Chris Hammond. Where were those horses going to take us? Not the wild card, not the post season.

I'm frustrated too, I really am. But soon they'll win 8 of 10 and this will be forgotten.

I hope you're right. I'm going to stop beating The Trade to death, although it will take me a while to get over it as I was a big fan of both Austin and Felipe.

I hope they win 8 out of 10. Hell, I just hope they win tonight & we'll go from there. Losing 2 of 3 or getting swept by the Braves could be catastrophic.

Edskin
08-04-2006, 11:26 AM
Marc is right, you must clean house sometimes. Neither Kearns nor Lopez are "difference making" players and neither would have brought us a good starter in return. We can debate the quality of Bray and Majewski all day long and perhaps time will show that this trade didn't make us any BETTER, but I guarantee you it didn't make us any WORSE. What it did do was make us DIFFERENT, which, IMO, is important-- as long as it's part of a larger plan.

Edskin
08-04-2006, 11:28 AM
And let's not forget where we came from:

One of the top 5 worst teams in MLB the past few years.

Now, we're average.

That's decent progress.

Maybe next year we'll be "good."

I'm willing to wait and give Krivsky a full chance to rebuild this thing.

Johnny Footstool
08-04-2006, 12:27 PM
I hate to be blunt but Kearns and Lopez aren't coming back.

Get over it.

Seriously.

This team is much better off now than with them on the team. OF bats and poor fielding SS's are a dime a dozen.

I'll "get over it" as soon as I stop seeing misinformation about Kearns and Lopez being "dime a dozen" players.

They were each in the top 10 in OPS at their respective positions. Kearns was 28th in OPS for all outfielders. They were each 26 years old, with room to improve. That's not "dime a dozen," no matter how you try to spin it.

So until people stop rationalizing the deal by making inaccurate comments as to the talent the Reds gave up, I'm going to continue to point out how bad that deal was.

flyer85
08-04-2006, 01:29 PM
I'll "get over it" as soon as I stop seeing misinformation about Kearns and Lopez being "dime a dozen" players.They may be dime a dozen. If so, the guys we got back are 5 cents a dozen. Trading everyday players for middle relievers is a losing proposition. For this deal to have a payoff for the Reds they have to get to the postseason.

OldXOhio
08-04-2006, 01:47 PM
I'm going to continue to point out how bad that deal was.

That's fine as long as you don't put a limited shelf life on WK's "good" deals (Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Guardado). This may or may not apply to you JF, I don't know, but I've seen some continually berate the Kearns/Lopez deal while merely offering the "Wayne can only live off that Arroyo or Phillips deal for so long" for the plus deals.

Just my .02

Falls City Beer
08-04-2006, 01:53 PM
I hate to be blunt but Kearns and Lopez aren't coming back.

Get over it.

Seriously.

This team is much better off now than with them on the team. OF bats and poor fielding SS's are a dime a dozen. I'm sorry we aren't losing game 9-6 now and instead are losing 4-3 or whatever, but Kearns and Felo aren't cowboys and this Reds team isn't an outlaw that they need to tame.

It's a baseball team. Slumps happen. Team wide slumps happen. In a few days it will be over.

Somehow I doubt this complaining will end anytime soon though, even after the slump is over.

Blame Narrons lineup construction, not Krivsky for doing exactly what everyone on this board asked for, getting more pitching help and jettisoning the riff raff we called a bull pen the first 3 months of the season. Did you expect it to happen without a cost? As time has passed this trade has seemed less and less lopsided. Bray has had all of one rough outing that I recall. How many have Kearns and Lopez had in Washington? I wager its more than one each. In fact they stunk the first couple weeks there.

Yeah, Clayton is horrid, but this deal was the only way the Reds could dream about the post season, if anyone thinks differently then they are being a bit delusional.

Don't forget, Rick White....don't forget Mike Burns....don't forget Esteban Yan....don't forget Chris Hammond. Where were those horses going to take us? Not the wild card, not the post season.

I'm frustrated too, I really am. But soon they'll win 8 of 10 and this will be forgotten.


The Reds aren't going to be winning 8 of 10 games during any stretch for the rest of the season.

That's something fans REALLY need to get used to.

This team is a bloody mess right now--weakened offense, horrible defense, mediocre overall pitching. Nothing fits where it should. I have no idea what Wayne Krivsky has done or is planning to do with this club, but as it stands right now this club simply cannot hold together.

If Wayne's smart, he either makes a waiver trade for some offense (and jettisons one of the many offensive redundancies on this club--Aurilia, Clayton, Castro) or he makes some waiver deals with next year in mind.

flyer85
08-04-2006, 01:55 PM
If Wayne's smart, he either makes a waiver trade for some offense (and jettisons one of the many offensive redundancies on this club--Aurilia, Clayton, Castro) or he makes some waiver deals with next year in mind.if he does the above he will have to deal with "what were you doing in July?"

Falls City Beer
08-04-2006, 01:58 PM
if he does the above he will have to deal with "what were you doing in July?"

If he doesn't, they'll ask the very same question at the end of September when the Reds are 5 games out of the WC and making travel arrangements for the offseason.

flyer85
08-04-2006, 02:00 PM
If he doesn't, they'll ask the very same question at the end of September when the Reds are 5 games out of the WC and making travel arrangements for the offseason.True but admitting one's own mistakes is always difficult to do. What tends to happen is the wait and hope against hope that the situation will make itself better.

Falls City Beer
08-04-2006, 02:02 PM
True but admitting one's own mistakes is always difficult to do. What tends to happen is the wait and hope against hope that the situation will make itself better.

I'm not saying that's what he's GOING to do, only that this team is in no position to make a push for the Central or the WC; it's just blind luck that they currently remain in the race.

flyer85
08-04-2006, 02:06 PM
it's just blind luck that they currently remain in the race.... and their opponents just aren't really any better. Every team has some serious warts.

Falls City Beer
08-04-2006, 02:07 PM
... and their opponents just aren't really any better. Every team has some serious warts.

That's what I mean by blind luck--only that they play in a dogcrap league and division.

NJReds
08-04-2006, 02:08 PM
... and their opponents just aren't really any better. Every team has some serious warts.

Even the Mets. The NL is scary right now. Mediocrity reigns.

The Tigers, White Sox, Yankees, Red Sox and Twins are all better then anyone in the NL. You can make an arguement for the A's, Angels, Texas and Blue Jays, too.

Joseph
08-04-2006, 02:08 PM
I'll "get over it" as soon as I stop seeing misinformation about Kearns and Lopez being "dime a dozen" players.

They were each in the top 10 in OPS at their respective positions. Kearns was 28th in OPS for all outfielders. They were each 26 years old, with room to improve. That's not "dime a dozen," no matter how you try to spin it.

So until people stop rationalizing the deal by making inaccurate comments as to the talent the Reds gave up, I'm going to continue to point out how bad that deal was.

Ryan Freel has a higher OPS than Kearns currently. Sounds like an upgrade to me by playing him.

Just saying.

And I apologize if I came across as rationalizing, what I'm trying to say here is that continuing to bring it up after every loss is just as productive as saying....'If only we'd drafted Jeter instead of Mottola.'

Could we have? Sure, absolutely. But we didn't and nothing can be done about it now. We can't push reset and go back and I do think the relievers....average or not....will help the Reds more than Kearns and FeLo would have down the stretch.

Johnny Footstool
08-04-2006, 04:00 PM
Ryan Freel has a higher OPS than Kearns currently. Sounds like an upgrade to me by playing him.

Just saying.

And I apologize if I came across as rationalizing, what I'm trying to say here is that continuing to bring it up after every loss is just as productive as saying....'If only we'd drafted Jeter instead of Mottola.'

Could we have? Sure, absolutely. But we didn't and nothing can be done about it now. We can't push reset and go back and I do think the relievers....average or not....will help the Reds more than Kearns and FeLo would have down the stretch.

That makes sense.

I think both the pro and con camps are getting out of hand with posting "I told you so" comments (and there are good arguments from both sides). I know I'm guilty of it, and I'm going to try to cut down.

Matt700wlw
08-04-2006, 04:15 PM
The bullpen is better and if it didn't get better, this team wasn't going to make it anyway. How many times did they blow games for our starters/offense before the trade? That right there would have made a lot of difference in where the Reds stand right now.

The offense is still inconsistant, as it was before the Kearns/Lopez trade. It may have lost some of it's pop, but they should be able to score runs...it hasn't been blown up.

The defense still is what it is....great at times, inconsistant at others.

The starting pitching has waivered a bit, but hasn't been god awful.



EVERYBODY needs to step it up, as can be said for any team in contention. In the last few games, the Dodgers did that....the Reds did not (actually Miton did....he's pitched well of late)

registerthis
08-04-2006, 04:25 PM
If Wayne's smart, he either makes a waiver trade for some offense (and jettisons one of the many offensive redundancies on this club--Aurilia, Clayton, Castro)

The only thing Aurilia has in common with those two is that they all three put on a Reds jersey every night.

Beyond that, Aurilia's proven significantly more valuable to this team than either Clayton or Castro.

Falls City Beer
08-04-2006, 05:07 PM
The only thing Aurilia has in common with those two is that they all three put on a Reds jersey every night.

Beyond that, Aurilia's proven significantly more valuable to this team than either Clayton or Castro.

I agree. But that doesn't mean that positionally, Aurilia's not redundant to some extent. Both Hatteberg at first and Encarnacion at third outperform him.

REDREAD
08-04-2006, 05:12 PM
... and their opponents just aren't really any better. Every team has some serious warts.

But the opponents are chipping away at the lead. In fact, Arizonia caught us.

We're in a serious tailspain. I just don't have faith we'll be able to put together a winning streak. We'll have spells where we play .500, sandwiched around losing streaks.

With the anemic lineup posted tonight, Arroyo on short rest Saturday, and Louse starting Sunday, I don't have a lot of confidence we'll take 2 out of 3 from Atlanta. I hope we do, because that's what we need, but I have my doubts.

registerthis
08-04-2006, 05:19 PM
I agree. But that doesn't mean that positionally, Aurilia's not redundant to some extent. Both Hatteberg at first and Encarnacion at third outperform him.

Considering the offensive rut this team is mired in, I don't think it's very sensical to pursue the trade of one of the more consistent bats in our lineup. Right-handed power, too, which is something else the Reds are lacking in.

doug flynn
08-04-2006, 07:14 PM
"Why certainly I'd like to have that fellow who hits a home run every time at bat, who strikes out every opposing batter when he's pitching, who throws strikes to any base or the plate when he's playing outfield and who's always thinking about two innings ahead just what he'll do to baffle the other team. Any manager would want a guy like that playing for him. The only trouble is to get him to put down his cup of beer and come down out of the stands and do those things."

Danny Murtaugh, manager

Wonder what Danny would have thought about getting them to log off...

KoryMac5
08-04-2006, 07:35 PM
The Reds aren't going to be winning 8 of 10 games during any stretch for the rest of the season.

That's something fans REALLY need to get used to.

This team is a bloody mess right now--weakened offense, horrible defense, mediocre overall pitching. Nothing fits where it should. I have no idea what Wayne Krivsky has done or is planning to do with this club, but as it stands right now this club simply cannot hold together.

If Wayne's smart, he either makes a waiver trade for some offense (and jettisons one of the many offensive redundancies on this club--Aurilia, Clayton, Castro) or he makes some waiver deals with next year in mind.

The cupboard is bare as far as waiver wire deals go. If Krivs does make a move it would almost have to involve two or three prospects. No team is going to want scrappy vets.

RedlegJake
08-05-2006, 08:34 AM
Yes, the bullpen is better. Much better. Cormier is a good reliever, don't let 1 or 2 poor outings sway that. Bray has more talent than anyone we had in the pen before but he is still young and learning. Majewski is ML average but thats better than White or Hammond. Guardado is excellent and a bulldog - an attitude that may help young guys like Bray and Coffey. Narron said he wished he had had this bullpen when the season started and that may be a key - in late season he has to find the right role for everyone and mesh an almost completely new group of guys. The results so far are statistically better with a couple very bad blips. Lohse is the one deal that I'd undo but its too late and all I can do is hope he out performs his norms for a short run. The only problem with that is the Reds might then decide to keep him.