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killuminati35
08-05-2006, 02:37 AM
Please can somebody give me an intelligent answer to this question?

Why do most members of this board cry and moan everytime EE is not in the line-up?

He is tied for the second most errors amongst 3B in the entire Major Leagues. The only person ahead of him is A-Rod and he has played in 41 more games than EE. In fact if you look at the 3B with the most errors in the entire league, they all have played 100 or more so games. EE has only played 62. Think how many errors he would have if he would have played in 40 more games.

On top of that RA has the same batting averge, better slugging, and slightly lower OBP, and 1/4 the errors.


Why the complaining?

Razor Shines
08-05-2006, 02:43 AM
Edit: You changed it.

Team Clark
08-05-2006, 02:43 AM
I wonder that myself. The error he had tonight was inexcusable. Sharp grounder to his left, he made a great play, got to his feet, and throws it 8 feet in front of 1B. Ridiculous. I like EE. He will be good in time. He's just too risky to play everyday with playoffs on the line.

Rich isn't the greatest ballplayer in the history of the game but he's putting up good numbers. He's not hitting .210 and striking out every other AB.

reds44
08-05-2006, 02:48 AM
I wonder that myself. The error he had tonight was inexcusable. Sharp grounder to his left, he made a great play, got to his feet, and throws it 8 feet in front of 1B. Ridiculous. I like EE. He will be good in time. He's just too risky to play everyday with playoffs on the line.

Rich isn't the greatest ballplayer in the history of the game but he's putting up good numbers. He's not hitting .210 and striking out every other AB.
Rich doesn't even get to that ball if he is playing 3B, and 95% of 1st baseman pick that ball. It was a bad throw, but not unpickable.

Did he not have the go ahead 2 run double in the 7th?

People complain because he is a 23 year old basically rookie who has been our 2nd or 3rd best hitter much of the year. He has 45 rbis in 226 ABs (1 RBI every 5 ABs) and Rich has 41 in 280 Abs (1 RBI every 6.8 ABs). Edwin has a better BA, OBP, and OPS and he is 11 years younger. Edwin makes a lot of errors, but he has gets to alot of balls Rich doesn't.

MrCinatit
08-05-2006, 03:01 AM
Edwin does indeed get to a lot of balls Rich and Castro do not get to, and he does have quicker hands and reflexs.
Yes, he has made a lot of errors. Many are of the throwing variey - but this is not the first time he has been charged with an error that most 1st basemen would make (re: Rich, slower hands).
The kid is in the development stages - yet even in that stage, is is better than many who are beyond those stages.
If we continue benching him, we will end up with another Wily Mo on our hands - a kid with a lot of potential, but no production...a kid we will keep pushing to the corners of the bench until he is pushed out the door and produces for another ballclub.
This would be yet another tragedy.

realistic
08-05-2006, 03:05 AM
Please can somebody give me an intelligent answer to this question?

Why do most members of this board cry and moan everytime EE is not in the line-up?

He is tied for the second most errors amongst 3B in the entire Major Leagues. The only person ahead of him is A-Rod and he has played in 41 more games than EE. In fact if you look at the 3B with the most errors in the entire league, they all have played 100 or more so games. EE has only played 62. Think how many errors he would have if he would have played in 40 more games.

On top of that RA has the same batting averge, better slugging, and slightly lower OBP, and 1/4 the errors.


Why the complaining?


The answer to the question is simple.

Most Reds fans are used to looking ahead to "next year" and worrying about the future. Youth brings hope and optimisim. Its the nature of the sportsfan to admire ,and overvalue, the younger players and dream about what they can possibly accomplish for the next ten years - veterans have reached their ceiling already and the package is out of the box and opened.

Baseball fans, specifically Reds fans, are dreamers and not very realistic or practical at times. These are the same people that moaned when Guardado was acquired (7 for 7 in save opps baby!) and whined when a dime a dozen minor leaguer with mechanics issues was traded for a proven major leaguer with quality stuff. The same fans who defend Dunn's outfield defense and in the next breath complain about Junior's.
Sure I get all warm and fuzzy when I dream that we may have a future allstar at 3b, but i want to win this year and I think we lose more on defense using EE than we gain on offense at this time.

oregonred
08-05-2006, 03:06 AM
Edwin does indeed get to a lot of balls Rich and Castro do not get to, and he does have quicker hands and reflexs.
Yes, he has made a lot of errors. Many are of the throwing variey - but this is not the first time he has been charged with an error that most 1st basemen would make (re: Rich, slower hands).
The kid is in the development stages - yet even in that stage, is is better than many who are beyond those stages.
If we continue benching him, we will end up with another Wily Mo on our hands - a kid with a lot of potential, but no production...a kid we will keep pushing to the corners of the bench until he is pushed out the door and produces for another ballclub.
This would be yet another tragedy.

I'd disagree and say the Kearns + Lopez trade makes EE more of a fixture in a Reds uniform. He's cheap and I think the Reds FO is well aware that he is a special player. Krivsky will build the offense for the forseeable future around Dunn + EE and the infield defense around Phillips. Brandon is a pup too and Narron has penciled him into the lineup everyday almost since he was acquired.

schroomytunes
08-05-2006, 03:09 AM
I think the explanation is well deserved. EE does deserve to be in the lineup everyday, but Narron is the one to blame. Sure EE has alot of errors, but he's young and want's to impress. The ideal infield should be with our current players 3b)EE 2b)Phillips 1b)Hatteberg SS)Clayton/Aurilia. My reasons: Hatteberg can handle the bad throws better, and EE has the range to cover Aurilia's lack of. We need all the offense we can get at this point, we have the pitching, but we need bigger bats in the lineup.

realistic
08-05-2006, 03:21 AM
Sure EE has alot of errors, but he's young and want's to impress.


I think thats the form of logic and excuse making the OP is asking about. Im reminded of Woody Harrelson wisely explaining to Wesley Snipes that he would rather win ugly than lose pretty.

howyoufreelin
08-05-2006, 03:32 AM
People complain because quite frankly, Edwin is one of the best bats on our team and our best hitter with runners in scoring position. Didn't he just pick up a vital double that gave us the lead tonight. Yes, he does make alot of throwing errors, but he makes a bunch of amazing plays in the field as well, and he has so much more range at third than Aurilia it's rediculous. Keeping his bat out of the lineup is absurd.

MrCinatit
08-05-2006, 03:40 AM
I'd disagree and say the Kearns + Lopez trade makes EE more of a fixture in a Reds uniform. He's cheap and I think the Reds FO is well aware that he is a special player. Krivsky will build the offense for the forseeable future around Dunn + EE and the infield defense around Phillips. Brandon is a pup too and Narron has penciled him into the lineup everyday almost since he was acquired.

I really hope you are right - i would like to see Edwin on this team a long time. I guess this is why I do not appreciate seeing him wasted as such by the onfield management.

Team Clark
08-05-2006, 03:42 AM
Rich doesn't even get to that ball if he is playing 3B, and 95% of 1st baseman pick that ball. It was a bad throw, but not unpickable.

Did he not have the go ahead 2 run double in the 7th?

People complain because he is a 23 year old basically rookie who has been our 2nd or 3rd best hitter much of the year. He has 45 rbis in 226 ABs (1 RBI every 5 ABs) and Rich has 41 in 280 Abs (1 RBI every 6.8 ABs). Edwin has a better BA, OBP, and OPS and he is 11 years younger. Edwin makes a lot of errors, but he has gets to alot of balls Rich doesn't.

I'll give you the fact that EE has more range than Rich. He sure better!! :laugh: True it was pickable, but geez you can't get it within 3 feet of him? This is the big leagues.

His BA is certainly better than I expected. I'm beginning to think it's because how they are playing him not just that he is that good of a hitter. He's learning and doing a good job of making adjustments. BTW, that double was a great job of hitting. Looked like a fastball down and he reacted to it and drove it. He missed one earlier in the game because he tried to pull it.

What's the use of getting to balls that Rich doesn't if you are going to throw them away? Rich is a serviceable Major League player. He's not embarassing himself out there. EE is embrassing himself with his fielding. It will not always be that way. EE's footwork is SUBSTANTIALLY better than last year. He'll get the rest of it worked out soon that his throws will be there too.

killuminati35
08-05-2006, 04:04 AM
As an out of market fan, I don't get to see a many games so I'm not sure what kind of range EE has so that might be a good point. But, you can never say that a 1st basemen SHOULD pick a bad throw. A bad throw is a bad throw. Period.

Again, EE has only played in 62 games. Again, can you even imagine the amount of errors and runs he would have cost us playing in an additional 40 games? EE might be a good young hitter, but his bat isn't that good to make up for that many errors.

Yes, he may be a better hitter than RA, but it is not like RA is hitting .210. He is holding his own quite well.

If the Reds were out of the playoff race then EE should be playing everyday and working out his defensive problems. But, we are in a playoff hunt and with Royce over at SS we need all the defensive help we can get.

Also, yes EE had a big hit tonight, but RA has had his fair share of big hits.

OUReds
08-05-2006, 05:37 AM
This has been answered, intelligently, tons of times, but hey, everyone loves the RA vs EE debate, so once more into the breach!

First, we have to narrow the situation a bit. Versus left-handers, such as today, RA is usually playing 1st base in place of Hatteberg. Rich needs to play against left handers. He is destroying them this year to the tune of a 1.165 OPS. if you want to occasionally play Rich at 3rd base against lefties, then great, but in general Narron has decided to use him at first and EE at 3rd, which, IMHO is exactly what should be done.

When EE is NOT playing is against right-handed pitchers. RA is consistently starting against righties. This is very curious, as RA this year is hitting righties to the tune of .659 OPS. That is somewhere between the career offensive production of Juan Castro and Royce Clayton. This makes RA the worst hitting 3rd baseman in baseball. By a lot. Worse then Aaron Boone.

You might think he would make up for this with stellar glove work, but instead, he plays defence like, well, Rich Aurillia. There are octogenarians with more range. I certainly understand the arguements that RA is the better fielder, but it isn't an open and shut case. Take the error today. There is zero chance RA gets to that ball, so the net outcome with RA out there is exactly the same as with EE.

Ltlabner
08-05-2006, 06:34 AM
....everyone loves the RA vs EE debate, so once more into the breach!

Everyone? Not exactly everyone.

killuminati35
08-05-2006, 06:42 AM
The only reason I specifically said intelligently was because I personally had not seen a whole lot of intelligent discussion. Most of the comments were simply "Jerry Narron sucks, no EE tonight", "We'll RA is in the line up, guess we're going to lose," or something about how our line up is full of dinosaurs.

buckeyenut
08-05-2006, 07:43 AM
I think what annoys people the most is threefold.
#1) EE is the better hitter. Aurillia is great against LHP and definitely needs to platoon with Hatteberg against LHP. And he is good enough to spot start against RHP at different positions without being a hurt to the team. But, EE is one of the 5 best hitters on the team. Dunn is better for sure, then maybe Ross, Freel, and Hatteburg go into the mix but that is about it this year.
#2) EE is the better fielder. Given the same amount of time, fulltime, EE gets to 50-100 balls that Aurillia lets go by for hits. Now, he to be clear, he probably gives 20-30 of those back with errors. But worst case, it is a wash. So I think a lot of people understand that Narron is just embarrassed by EEs errors and likes Rich better because of it but doesn't understand defense all that much.
#3) Young kids like EE get better on defense with time. There is a tremendous amount of precedent in baseball history that follows EEs glidepath, including the best 3B of all time in Schmidt. In fact, I think many people see a tremendous amount of similarity between EE and Mike Schmidt and that is one reason why we want him in there and learning and getting better.

Razor Shines
08-05-2006, 09:33 AM
This has been answered, intelligently, tons of times, but hey, everyone loves the RA vs EE debate, so once more into the breach!

First, we have to narrow the situation a bit. Versus left-handers, such as today, RA is usually playing 1st base in place of Hatteberg. Rich needs to play against left handers. He is destroying them this year to the tune of a 1.165 OPS. if you want to occasionally play Rich at 3rd base against lefties, then great, but in general Narron has decided to use him at first and EE at 3rd, which, IMHO is exactly what should be done.

When EE is NOT playing is against right-handed pitchers. RA is consistently starting against righties. This is very curious, as RA this year is hitting righties to the tune of .659 OPS. That is somewhere between the career offensive production of Juan Castro and Royce Clayton. This makes RA the worst hitting 3rd baseman in baseball. By a lot. Worse then Aaron Boone.

You might think he would make up for this with stellar glove work, but instead, he plays defence like, well, Rich Aurillia. There are octogenarians with more range. I certainly understand the arguements that RA is the better fielder, but it isn't an open and shut case. Take the error today. There is zero chance RA gets to that ball, so the net outcome with RA out there is exactly the same as with EE.
I don't know how you can say this. Zero chance? I agree that EE has more range but that one was just a dive to his left, which I've seen RA do this year also. There are arguments for EE getting more playing time, but I don't think that defenSe is one of them.

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2006, 09:40 AM
I've been told that you can't tell anything about a guy's range by watching TV?

joshnky
08-05-2006, 09:43 AM
I think what annoys people the most is threefold.
#2) EE is the better fielder. Given the same amount of time, fulltime, EE gets to 50-100 balls that Aurillia lets go by for hits. Now, he to be clear, he probably gives 20-30 of those back with errors. But worst case, it is a wash. So I think a lot of people understand that Narron is just embarrassed by EEs errors and likes Rich better because of it but doesn't understand defense all that much.


Statements like this are what drive we crazy in this debate. There is no way that you have any statistical data to back this up, its totally opinion. Now I agree that EE should be playing more but I don't think the whole greater range vs. less errors argument is as quite as cut and dry as people see it on this board.

Razor Shines
08-05-2006, 09:44 AM
I think what annoys people the most is threefold.
#1) EE is the better hitter. Aurillia is great against LHP and definitely needs to platoon with Hatteberg against LHP. And he is good enough to spot start against RHP at different positions without being a hurt to the team. But, EE is one of the 5 best hitters on the team. Dunn is better for sure, then maybe Ross, Freel, and Hatteburg go into the mix but that is about it this year.
#2) EE is the better fielder. Given the same amount of time, fulltime, EE gets to 50-100 balls that Aurillia lets go by for hits. Now, he to be clear, he probably gives 20-30 of those back with errors. But worst case, it is a wash. So I think a lot of people understand that Narron is just embarrassed by EEs errors and likes Rich better because of it but doesn't understand defense all that much.
#3) Young kids like EE get better on defense with time. There is a tremendous amount of precedent in baseball history that follows EEs glidepath, including the best 3B of all time in Schmidt. In fact, I think many people see a tremendous amount of similarity between EE and Mike Schmidt and that is one reason why we want him in there and learning and getting better.
Throwing errors give up extra bases. Like that play last night, if as everyone says RA has no chance at that ball then it goes into LF for a single. Maybe there is less pressure on Harang with a guy at first instead of second. I'm not blaming EE for Harang making a poor pitch to McCann though. But if McCann just gets a single there, which will likely happen if EE has 20-30 of those, it's a different story. I just don't think the defense defense works I think we should focus more on what he does with the bat. We've got to get his bat in there more often.

joshnky
08-05-2006, 09:58 AM
I thought this would be interesting to add some facts to the debate as opposed to the absolutes that get thrown out around here. From:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_and_league_200_inni ngs/

Third Base

Pos NAME Last Team GP GS INN RSpt RS/150

5 Rich Aurilia Cin 32 26 238.0 2 12
5 Edwin Encarnacion Cin 52 51 434.3 -6 -18

The Runs saved per 150 games differential is 30. Now, the question is, would EE produce 30 more runs than RA this year? I took their rbi's and runs scored and averaged them over 150 games and EE's totalled 175 while RA totalled 164.

Another thing about this that isn't as quantifiable is the damage it does to a pitcher. EE's error tonight was directly followed by a 2 run homer. Did this have an effect on Harang? Would McCann have still hit a homer if the error wasn't made? We'll never know.

joshnky
08-05-2006, 10:06 AM
I also found this in my search regarding SS's:

Shortstop Defensive Rankings
Rank NAME INN ZR Chances Plays Above Average Runs Above Average
19 Royce Clayton 793.2 0.83 318 -1.48 -1.11
26 Juan Castro 471.2 0.786 210 -10.22 -7.69
30 Felipe Lopez 824 0.786 319 -15.52 -11.69

From: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/7/26/15656/7811

OUReds
08-05-2006, 10:19 AM
Yes, since defensive statistics are unreliable to say the least, I am relying on subjective analysis. It is indeed my opinion.

Thus, in my opinion, RA does not get to that ball tonight. The point here is that a straight comparison between the number of errors committed does not tell the whole defensive story between EE and RA.

For the record, I don't think EE is a better defensive third baseman then RA. I do think any difference is pretty small, and doesn't come remotely close to balancing out RA's very bad offensive numbers versus right handers. Make no mistake, RA is hurting the offense versus righties. Frankly, with Jr. in decline and Clayton/Castro at SS, we need all the offensive help we can get to eek out a playoff birth. As always, your milage my vary

OUReds
08-05-2006, 10:36 AM
I thought this would be interesting to add some facts to the debate as opposed to the absolutes that get thrown out around here. From:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_and_league_200_inni ngs/

Third Base

Pos NAME Last Team GP GS INN RSpt RS/150

5 Rich Aurilia Cin 32 26 238.0 2 12
5 Edwin Encarnacion Cin 52 51 434.3 -6 -18

The Runs saved per 150 games differential is 30. Now, the question is, would EE produce 30 more runs than RA this year? I took their rbi's and runs scored and averaged them over 150 games and EE's totalled 175 while RA totalled 164.

Another thing about this that isn't as quantifiable is the damage it does to a pitcher. EE's error tonight was directly followed by a 2 run homer. Did this have an effect on Harang? Would McCann have still hit a homer if the error wasn't made? We'll never know.

Interesting numbers to be sure. I am a bit wary of the defensive stats as presented though. The date of calculation was July 11th, with the cutoff being 200 innings. RA gets on the list with the second smallest sample size (238 innings, behind only Joe Randa with 222 innings). The smaller sample makes the results much less reliable, with most of the other 3rb basemen between 600-800 innings.

Also, to show just how much defensive stats can vary, The Harball Times calculates EE's Defensive Win Shares at 0.7 and RA's at 1.0. The difference between RA and EE defensively is less then 1 win. It's not a direct comparison since RA has played other positions other then third, and RA has played more overall games the EE, but the difference is nevertheless very, very small according to Defensive Win Shares. In comparison, again according to win shares, EE has a 9.0 offensive win share value as opposed to 6.8 for RA, and again this is in less games played.

vic715
08-05-2006, 11:31 AM
I like EE and would like to see him in there too.But then again I'm glad it was Castro at 3rd last night making that game ending doubleplay.I don't buy the range factor at 3b as being a big issue.At 3rd you don't have near the territory to cover as a SS or 2b so when its hit to you you should at least be able to throw the damn ball to first.EE needs to be in there but not at the point where the game is on the line(last nite in the9th) and not if his erratic play is going to kill our chances of making the playoffs.1st base or RF(not this year) is where he needs to be and I say it will make him an even better hitter.

OUReds
08-05-2006, 11:40 AM
I agree. I have zero problems with getting a late inning defensive replacement in for EE. I am as skeptical that EE gets to the final double play ball as I am that RA gets to EE's error. Well, maybe he would get to it, but the quick throw might have been an adventure.

redsfan30
08-05-2006, 11:46 AM
I am in no way an Aurilia appolgist, but I find it humorous that Encarnacion makes one of the worst throws I've seen all year, and Aurilia takes most of the venom for not picking it.

And to say Aurilia would have had no chance at getting to that ball, that's not true. Sure, Aurilia doesn't have the range of Encarnacion (I don't think anyone could argue that) but he's made some very nice diving plays going to both his right and left this season. Would Aurilia have gotten to that ball? We'll never know. But to say he would have had no chance just isn't true in my opinion.

Again, I'm in no way shape of form an Aurilia appologist. I think Encarnacion should be getting the majority of the time at third. But sometimes I just have to laugh at the pedistal he's put on and all the dirt that's thrown on Aurilia.

joshnky
08-05-2006, 12:14 PM
To end my contribution to this debate, I just wanted to say that I do have more confidence in the offense when EE is in there. I just wanted to point out that it isn't nearly as simple a decision as people on this site make it seem.

fielder's choice
08-05-2006, 12:16 PM
I am in no way an Aurilia appolgist, but I find it humorous that Encarnacion makes one of the worst throws I've seen all year, and Aurilia takes most of the venom for not picking it.


I'm not blaming it all on Aurilia, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leaguer trying to make that play.

Ltlabner
08-05-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm not blaming it all on Aurilia, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leaguer trying to make that play.

I'm not trying to blame it all on EE, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leagure trying to make that play. :rolleyes:

Can't we just start one sticky thread so the EE vs RA battle can rage on instead of being the subject of many different threads? Then people can continue to hash it to death while the rest of us don't have to weed through 8 different threads of "RA sucks and EE's wonderfull". Everybody comes out a winner...well, everybody except RA.

westofyou
08-05-2006, 12:33 PM
I'm not blaming it all on Aurilia, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leaguer trying to make that play.
Yeah, because digging a ball out of the dirt (with a runner bearing down) that has a slight spin caused by the drag that the lack of effort on the throw caused is a drill most knothole players work on.

Usually though because they expect half assed throws from kids that weigh 60 pounds.

My question is why doesn't EE go all Rafael Furcal at that moment, set up and throw the ball like he can? I'd rather he get it in the air to first and test the players height then bounce it up there, the ground is a variable that creates a problem for both players, get in there in the air and it's just Aurilia's problem.

fielder's choice
08-05-2006, 12:36 PM
I'm not trying to blame it all on EE, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leagure trying to make that play. :rolleyes:


:confused:

indy_dave00
08-05-2006, 12:41 PM
The main reason I want Edwin Encarnacion out there every night is because he needs to play. His run production is needed in the line up.

As someone who has played baseball and softball all my life tonights throw was not that bad any decent first sacker gloves that throw.

Edwin will get no better defensively sitting on the bench , you develop consistancy through playing on an every day basis. He's read the papers , he knows Narron has stated many times EE is sitting because of his throws. Sitting him then playing under the knowledge one bad throw and he sits does nothing to help EE's confidence. Thus he can not play relaxed.

At 23, Edwin has a great future I for one want to see it as a Red. Not sure about most Reds fans but every time I see Paul Konerko , I think how nice it would have been to watch him develop in Cincy , instead of dealing him .

westofyou
08-05-2006, 12:44 PM
Not sure about most Reds fans but every time I see Paul Konerko , I think how nice it would have been to watch him develop in Cincy , instead of dealing him .I think of the supreme fly catcher he generated in a trade and how we tossed him away when his cost was low.

Bigg Red Smokey
08-05-2006, 01:04 PM
I think EE needs to be in there almost every day because he seems to be the most consistent bat with RISP.

I do like the versatilty of the team, and the lineup can be formed in a variety of ways each game. I am just think the best lineup is not always put out on a consistent basis.

edabbs44
08-05-2006, 01:05 PM
RA can't hit RHPs.

ghettochild
08-05-2006, 01:06 PM
Please can somebody give me an intelligent answer to this question?

Why do most members of this board cry and moan everytime EE is not in the line-up?

He is tied for the second most errors amongst 3B in the entire Major Leagues. The only person ahead of him is A-Rod and he has played in 41 more games than EE. In fact if you look at the 3B with the most errors in the entire league, they all have played 100 or more so games. EE has only played 62. Think how many errors he would have if he would have played in 40 more games.

On top of that RA has the same batting averge, better slugging, and slightly lower OBP, and 1/4 the errors.


Why the complaining?

barry larkin had 52 errors in his first three seasons. management still played him.

the statline always reads runs, hits, errors. not runs, hits, webgems.

its not healthy for edwin to ride the pony.

KoryMac5
08-05-2006, 01:07 PM
I remember Mike Schmidt started off terrible at third base. He could hit a ton but couldn't field at all. He committed 50 errors in 74 and 75 (combined). Than he went on a streak in which he won a ton of gold gloves. Edwin just needs a little more time folks and a little more work at the position and I am sure he will be fine. My problem is where he is getting his work in. The Phillies continued to play Schmidt through his defensive liabilities while the Reds sit out EE.

joshnky
08-05-2006, 01:09 PM
RA can't hit RHPs.
Intelligent post. So you're saying he has not gotten a hit of RHP all year. Amazing.:rolleyes:

jmac
08-05-2006, 01:32 PM
aurilia hit 240 vs rh's.
EE hits 246 on road.so should EE just play at GABP?

i would like to see EE in lineup but with aurilia at 2nd and phillips at ss.

fielder's choice
08-05-2006, 01:33 PM
Intelligent post. So you're saying he has not gotten a hit of RHP all year. Amazing.:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure he didn't say that. How about "Aurilia is the worst hitter on the team against righthanders." That better?

OUReds
08-05-2006, 01:37 PM
aurilia hit 240 vs rh's.
EE hits 246 on road.so should EE just play at GABP?

i would like to see EE in lineup but with aurilia at 2nd and phillips at ss.

Aurilia's OPS vs right handers, .659

Encarnacion's OPS on the road, .755

EE should be playing both home and away.

jmac
08-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Aurilia's OPS vs right handers, .659

Encarnacion's OPS on the road, .755

EE should be playing both home and away.
there was intended sarcasm on the EE at GABP only line?
point is imo this current lineup needs rich and edwin in it to add some pop.
i can almost hear the conversation on the trade."look,we want lopez and kearns and you need two relievers.but i dont want to cause a rift with lopez and clayton wanting to start...so you must take clayton or no deal".
thus............our new starting SS :rolleyes:

OUReds
08-05-2006, 01:52 PM
there was intended sarcasm on the EE at GABP only line?


Gotcha! :)

fearofpopvol1
08-05-2006, 01:54 PM
The answer to the question is simple.

Most Reds fans are used to looking ahead to "next year" and worrying about the future. Youth brings hope and optimisim. Its the nature of the sportsfan to admire ,and overvalue, the younger players and dream about what they can possibly accomplish for the next ten years - veterans have reached their ceiling already and the package is out of the box and opened.

Baseball fans, specifically Reds fans, are dreamers and not very realistic or practical at times. These are the same people that moaned when Guardado was acquired (7 for 7 in save opps baby!) and whined when a dime a dozen minor leaguer with mechanics issues was traded for a proven major leaguer with quality stuff. The same fans who defend Dunn's outfield defense and in the next breath complain about Junior's.
Sure I get all warm and fuzzy when I dream that we may have a future allstar at 3b, but i want to win this year and I think we lose more on defense using EE than we gain on offense at this time.

This is a GREAT explanation in my opinion.

edabbs44
08-05-2006, 03:24 PM
Intelligent post. So you're saying he has not gotten a hit of RHP all year. Amazing.:rolleyes:
Yep. You got me. His splits are as follows vs RHPs: .000/.000/.000.

Look at what he has done vs RHPs. RA's full stat line is heavily weighted vs LHPs.

Vs LHPs, RA has 105 ABs and has stats of .352/.417/.733.
Vs RHPs, he has 175 ABs and stats of .240/.287/.371.
His whole stat line is .282/.337/.507.

Overall stats aren't that bad, but against RHPs they are horrific, not even mentioning he hits cleanup vs RHPs. His overall numbers look strong b/c almost 40% of his ABs have come vs LHPs, which is odd for a full-time player b/c there are a lot more RHPs in baseball than LHPs. RA sat a lot more in the beginning of the season vs RHPs.

Looks a lot like WMP's stats last year. There were a lot of people who thought the BA trade was bad b/c of Pena's numbers last year, but look closer and you will see he hit better vs LHPs (.881 OPS) than vs RHPs (750 OPS. And when players like RA and WMP have a lot of their ABs vs LHPs, your overall numbers will look a lot better. Everyone looks at someone's numbers on the whole and immediately assumes that the numbers hold true for whatever pitcher they are facing. When someone's stats are skewed b/c of another reason (LHP vs RHP, Coors Field of yesteryear, etc), they might be surprised how that person will perform on a full-time basis when the frequency of those outlying reasons are negated or minimized.

MaineRed
08-05-2006, 04:12 PM
and 95% of 1st baseman pick that ball.

95% of Gold Glove 1st basmen don't make that play. It was a horrid throw and 100% the fault of Edwin Encarnacion. And it was further proof of why Narron is so hesitant to play him.

Nobody else would get away with that many errors, not even Dunn, playing left field could get away with it. Why should Edwin? We can look for an intelligent answer to that question but we won't get it.

The error rate is astounding. Will he improve? Probably, but we are in a pennant race. Its mind boggling that people think playing an error prone infielder is the answer to the teams ills and that Narron is a fool for not penciling him in there everyday. Yet when someone else makes a mistake in the field, either Narron is a fool for putting them out there, or they are a bum, see Clayton, Royce.

Anyone over 30 has some success on this team and it is just a lucky streak. Edwin drives in two runs and its the tell all that he is a future Hall of Famer. He gets an error and it leads to two runs and we get every excuse in the book. He drives in two runs and then it is, see, see, see.

Yet no word of how the Reds got those first two runs.

The answer I can give is that once people get something in their head, all they see is what they want to see. That seems to be the case with many here.

The Reds will be in the play-offs and these people will be claiming the only way to win is if Narron puts Edwin in.

killuminati35
08-05-2006, 04:29 PM
barry larkin had 52 errors in his first three seasons. management still played him.

the statline always reads runs, hits, errors. not runs, hits, webgems.

its not healthy for edwin to ride the pony.


Exactly, in his first 3 seasons. If EE played everyday this season he would probably have about 52 errors by the end of the year.

jimbo
08-05-2006, 04:50 PM
I'm not blaming it all on Aurilia, but that was an EASY pick. He looked like a little leaguer trying to make that play.

And EE's throw looked litle league. It was one of the worst throws I've seen by a third baseman in a long time.

jimbo
08-05-2006, 05:14 PM
barry larkin had 52 errors in his first three seasons. management still played him.


Larkin also had stronger defensive players surrounding him, especially on that left side with Sabo, Daniels, and Davis. Unfortunately, EE has not had that luxury so he defensive weaknesses stand out even more.

Gizmo
08-05-2006, 05:39 PM
And EE's throw looked litle league. It was one of the worst throws I've seen by a third baseman in a long time.


I agree. I love EE, and want to see him every day, but it looks like he needs to fix his throwing mechanics. To me he seemed to sidearm the ball toward first yesterday. He needs to get throwing overhand and steping into his throws more. Should be an easy fix, if he's putting forth the effort to condition his body into throwing this way.

fielder's choice
08-05-2006, 05:41 PM
Awful game turned in by Aurilia today. 1 quality AB out of 5 (liner to 3rd).

StillFunkyB
08-05-2006, 08:28 PM
I'll give you the fact that EE has more range than Rich. He sure better!! :laugh: True it was pickable, but geez you can't get it within 3 feet of him? This is the big leagues.

Your right, it IS the big leagues, and a big league (read more experienced) firstbaseman would have made that play.

Tough play, and was not a great throw by Edwin. I would have to put a little blame on Richie there as well in this situation.

In fact, if I were Rich I would have gone right to Edwin in the dugout and said "my bad, should of had that one".