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KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 03:03 PM
Dont be ignorant baseball writers of america, he would have retired early due to injury had it not been for the juice. and he would have ended with maybe 300 homeruns and a 256 average for his career. that ist even Veterans Committee elected HOF numbers yo

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2540550

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 03:05 PM
also it pisses me off whenever people bring up canseco even though he is the ONLY one to step up and admit baseball's lies..Mcgwire is the next most guiltiest player after Canseco and nobody ever talks about him anymore.

he gets a free pass..why? I bought canseco's book the day it came out and loved it and believed him from Day 1 (based on my personal experiences and relationships with some braves players I know)

MaineRed
08-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Thank goodness the Reds beat the As in that World Series. I think we'd see some serious anger towards the Bash Brothers had they thumped the Reds.

But they didn't.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 03:23 PM
Thank goodness the Reds beat the As in that World Series. I think we'd see some serious anger towards the Bash Brothers had they thumped the Reds.

But they didn't.

did you have any doubt in your mind after we beat the Bucs??!! :beerme:

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 03:58 PM
Dont be ignorant baseball writers of america, he would have retired early due to injury had it not been for the juice.

Link?

Let's find out who's ignorant here.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 04:06 PM
Add all of his pre 1993 (he was out almost the entire year with a major knee/back injury) homeruns and see what you get

Barbarossa
08-05-2006, 04:48 PM
did you have any doubt in your mind after we beat the Bucs??!! :beerme:

Yeah, there were a few doubts but they were all erased when Eric Davis hit that homer. Man that was a great series and a great year.:beerme:

MWM
08-05-2006, 05:05 PM
Why would he cooperate? He doesn't play anymore and he faces no legal consequences for nto cooperating. He has nothing to gain. Not that I'm trying to defend the guy, his legacy is quite certain at this point, but I sure as hell don't blame him for not cooperating with this investigation.

RBA
08-05-2006, 05:13 PM
McGwire has nothing to gain dealing with this commision. He compromised the integrity of the game. He needs to hide in shame and never to be seen in public again.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 06:14 PM
Add all of his pre 1993 (he was out almost the entire year with a major knee/back injury) homeruns and see what you get

I added them up, but the sum wasn't "early retirement due to injury."

Wanna try a new tact?

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 06:19 PM
A friend of mine was playing golf about a month ago and McGwire was in the group ahead of him, he took a few pics with his cell phone. He's still as big as a house, so if he was on roids or HGH I guess he's still using them.

I'm tired of the andro talk when it comes to McGwire, it was perfectly legal and you could purchase it in any GNC store.

UKFlounder
08-05-2006, 06:40 PM
Nobody talks about McGuire anymore because he retired years ago and has avoided the public. (And when he came out into public - the Senate hearings - he was ripped & ridiculed by media and fans.)

People talk about Conseco because he wants and seeks out attention.

Newman4
08-05-2006, 08:16 PM
I added them up, but the sum wasn't "early retirement due to injury."

Wanna try a new tact?

It looks like he's just saying he wouldn't even be discussed for the HOF if it wasn't for the juice.

RedsBaron
08-05-2006, 08:28 PM
If I was a voter for the Hall of Fame, when McGwire's name appears on the ballot I would say "I'm not here to talk about the past" and I wouldn't vote for him.

ChatterRed
08-05-2006, 08:40 PM
If I was a voter for the HOF............whenever I came to McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds name......I'd scribble it out and write Rose.

Who comprimised the game more?

deltachi8
08-05-2006, 08:42 PM
If I was a voter for the HOF............whenever I came to McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds name......I'd scribble it out and write Rose.

Who comprimised the game more?

Apples and Oranges

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 09:36 PM
It looks like he's just saying he wouldn't even be discussed for the HOF if it wasn't for the juice.

Nope. I double checked it. He said McGwire would have retired early due to injury had it not been for the juice.

Either way, it's idle speculation. To say that a guy who broke the record with 49 HRs as a juice-free rookie could never had made the HOF without taking steroids (or legal Andro, as the case may be) down the road is one conclusion. It's certainly not the only one, or the most reasonable one.

I certainly don't think the case is closed on this. It's a much more complex issue than it's being made out to be. Is Andro a steroid? Is HGH a steroid? What constitues cheating? Creatin? Protein shakes? Which ones are bad for the body? Should it even matter whether the substance is healthy or not? Where do you draw the line on what's unnatural?

And, I think, most importantly -- how do you go about punishing hitters in an era where both the pitchers and the hitters were taking the whole gamut of these substances? Additionally, if you don't know which substances were taken, then how to you mete out the punishment?

I saw McGwire hit those HRs. It happened. How can you take something away when we all saw it happen? If (and this is still a big "if") he hit them on the juice, he was hitting them off pitchers who were also on the juice. But sure enough, he hit them. He's a product of his era.

RBA
08-05-2006, 09:40 PM
Landis just won the Tour de France. I saw it happened. I saw them take it away.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 09:44 PM
Landis got caught taking banned substances. McGwire has never tested positive for anything and the substances we know he took (Andro) was not banned or illegal and was available OTC at thousands of stores that carry nutritional supplements and vitamins.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 09:45 PM
Landis just won the Tour de France. I saw it happened. I saw them take it away.

Re: Landis -- Was that against Tour de France's rules? Did he flunk a drunk test? What substance(s) did he take? Were his competitors also on the juice?

Re: McGwire -- Was Andro against baseball's rules? Did he flunk a drug test? What other substances did McGwire take? Were his competitors on the juice?

Newman4
08-05-2006, 09:46 PM
Nope. I double checked it. He said McGwire would have retired early due to injury had it not been for the juice.

Either way, it's idle speculation. To say that a guy who broke the record with 49 HRs as a juice-free rookie could never had made the HOF without taking steroids (or legal Andro, as the case may be) down the road is one conclusion. It's certainly not the only one, or the most reasonable one.

I certainly don't think the case is closed on this. It's a much more complex issue than it's being made out to be. Is Andro a steroid? Is HGH a steroid? What constitues cheating? Creatin? Protein shakes? Which ones are bad for the body? Should it even matter whether the substance is healthy or not? Where do you draw the line on what's unnatural?

And, I think, most importantly -- how do you go about punishing hitters in an era where both the pitchers and the hitters were taking the whole gamut of these substances? Additionally, if you don't know which substances were taken, then how to you mete out the punishment?

I saw McGwire hit those HRs. It happened. How can you take something away when we all saw it happen? If (and this is still a big "if") he hit them on the juice, he was hitting them off pitchers who were also on the juice. But sure enough, he hit them. He's a product of his era.

If he retired early would he have the same numbers? No.

McGwire's a cheater. I would also bet anything I got that he took more than just Andro as well.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 09:48 PM
McGwire's a cheater. I would also bet anything I got that he took more than just Andro as well.

So you have no proof, yet he's a cheater? It's not what you think, it's what you can prove. There is no proof McGwire took any illegal drugs while playing. You might not like that, but it's a fact.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 09:48 PM
Landis just won the Tour de France. I saw it happened. I saw them take it away.

Now tackle these questions:


I certainly don't think the case is closed on this. It's a much more complex issue than it's being made out to be. Is Andro a steroid? Is HGH a steroid? What constitues cheating? Creatin? Protein shakes? Which ones are bad for the body? Should it even matter whether the substance is healthy or not? Where do you draw the line on what's unnatural?

And, I think, most importantly -- how do you go about punishing hitters in an era where both the pitchers and the hitters were taking the whole gamut of these substances? Additionally, if you don't know which substances were taken, then how to you mete out the punishment?

I'm not saying I have any of the answers. I just want to know what your answers would be to these questions. It makes for more interesting conversation than "j'accuse."

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 09:50 PM
I certainly don't think the case is closed on this. It's a much more complex issue than it's being made out to be. Is Andro a steroid? Is HGH a steroid? What constitues cheating? Creatin? Protein shakes? Which ones are bad for the body? Should it even matter whether the substance is healthy or not? Where do you draw the line on what's unnatural?

.


are you friggin kidding me??? those are retarded questions. Protein shakes? Creatine? If thes are real questions coming from you, then you should just delete all your posts in this thread and go play with your Starting Lineup Figurines. idiot.

Steroids are illegal. Period. Personally I dont think they should be but they are.

So lets say you work as a construction worker...loong hours... all your co workers are doing blow in the Johhny On the Spot so they can stay awake all day and night. You get caught doing blow in your Chevy. You gona tell me you shouldnt get in trouble?

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 09:51 PM
So you have no proof, yet he's a cheater? It's not what you think, it's what you can prove. There is no proof McGwire took any illegal drugs while playing. You might not like that, but it's a fact.

if the congressional hearings wasnt proof enough then you seriously have brain damage.

redsfan4445
08-05-2006, 09:52 PM
I was watching ESPN tonight and at the botom it said "McGwire refuses Senator Mitchells request to talk about steroids in baseball as part of his MLB investigation"
sounds like he has soemthing to hide ...i will say he retired early because he knew if they started testing he would fail the tests.. i honestly belive thats why he retired when he could have stayed around 1-2 more years, but i think the whispers started and he decided to get out before any tests were done on him..

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 09:52 PM
are you friggin kidding me??? Steroids are illegal. Period. Personally I dont think they should be but they are.

So lets say you work as a construction worker...loong hours... all your co workers are doing blow in the Johhny On the Spot so they can stay awake all day and night. You get caught doing blow in your Chevy. You gona tell me you shouldnt get in trouble?

Steroids are only illegal if they aren't prescribed by a doctor. Coke is illegal period; your analogy makes no sense.

RBA
08-05-2006, 09:54 PM
Re: Landis -- Was that against Tour de France's rules? Did he flunk a drunk test? What substance(s) did he take? Were his competitors also on the juice?

Re: McGwire -- Was Andro against baseball's rules? Did he flunk a drug test? What other substances did McGwire take? Were his competitors on the juice?


Apart from the fact that steroid possession was made illegal by the Omnibus Act passed in November 1988 - which would by extension automatically make them illegal anywhere INCLUDING baseball, we have since learned that steroids were on the banned list in a 1991 memo circulated by then commissioner Fay Vincent.

Canseco stated that he personally injected McGwire along with many other former teammates.


McGwire repeatedly denied using illegal performance-enhancing drugs in television interviews, but he declined to answer under oath when he appeared before the House Government Reform Committee on March 17, 2005. As McGwire said in a tearful opening statement, "Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations." During the hearing, McGwire repeatedly responded to questions regarding his own steroid use with the line, "I'm not here to talk about the past." McGwire also stated, "My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself." When asked if he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire once again responded: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

The above was all taken from wikipedia.

GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!

Side note: I didn't use any performance enhancing drugs to produced this post with the exception of half a brat and 24 oz. of Diet Pepsi.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 09:55 PM
If he retired early would he have the same numbers? No.

McGwire's a cheater. I would also bet anything I got that he took more than just Andro as well.

OK, if we leave out our esteemed collegue, KalDanielsfan, where does it say that McGwire's "alleged possible early retirement" plans were scuttled thanks to steroids restoring him to perfect health?

Rumor and innuendo notwithstanding, there's no reason to believe McGwire would have retired early had it not been for steroids. Nor is there much reason to believe he was any more or less of a cheater than 90% of the pitchers and hitters playing in the mid 90s.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 09:55 PM
Steroids are only illegal is they aren't prescribed by a doctor. Coke is illegal period; your analogy makes no sense.

you are telling me that a professional athlete has the need for prescribed steroids? they are alrady at the top of the gene pool in the entire world


yes my analogy does make sense. If you argue the "product of the era" (everybody was doing steroids)..it doesnt justify it in any way.


nobody deserves special treatment when it comes to the law.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 09:55 PM
if the congressional hearings wasnt proof enough then you seriously have brain damage.

Avoiding questions makes him guilty? Better alert every law school in America, the burden of proof just changed.

Oh, and I'd watch the name calling if I were you.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 09:56 PM
Apart from the fact that steroid possession was made illegal by the Omnibus Act passed in November 1988 - which would by extension automatically make them illegal anywhere INCLUDING baseball, we have since learned that steroids were on the banned list in a 1991 memo circulated by then commissioner Fay Vincent.

Canseco stated that he personally injected McGwire along with many other former teammates.


McGwire repeatedly denied using illegal performance-enhancing drugs in television interviews, but he declined to answer under oath when he appeared before the House Government Reform Committee on March 17, 2005. As McGwire said in a tearful opening statement, "Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations." During the hearing, McGwire repeatedly responded to questions regarding his own steroid use with the line, "I'm not here to talk about the past." McGwire also stated, "My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself." When asked if he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire once again responded: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

The above was all taken from wikipedia.

GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!

Side note: I didn't use any performance enhancing drugs to produced this post with the exception of half a brat and 24 oz. of Diet Pepsi.

Was Andro on the banned list?

Were the players aware of this memo "circulated" by Vincent?

Is Canseco a credible source?

RBA
08-05-2006, 09:56 PM
Kal, you need to play by the REDSZONE rules. Thanks.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 09:57 PM
Avoiding questions makes him guilty? Better alert every law school in America, the burden of proof just changed.

Oh, and I'd watch the name calling if I were you.

why? i get name called all the time on this board and in my "reputation" things or whatever on my profile from other members.

Whats good for the goose right? Or is it cuz im new I dont have such "priviledges?"

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:00 PM
Was Andro on the banned list?

Were the players aware of this memo "circulated" by Vincent?

Is Canseco a credible source?

No. Yes. Yes (after some time, i think he's earned some credibility).

To believe otherise is asinine.


and to honestly honestly think he only took Andro to get that big that quickly is terriblely ridiculous. I have a degree in biochemistry from Miami University and did research when i lived in atlanta with some team trainers (how i know some braves players) and believe me, andro can't do that for ANYONE. its metabolically impossible.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 10:02 PM
why? i get name called all the time on this board and in my "reputation" things or whatever on my profile from other members.

Whats good for the goose right? Or is it cuz im new I dont have such "priviledges?"

The rules are for everyone, including you. Transgressions of others donít give you permission to violate any rule you like.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:03 PM
The rules are for everyone, including you. Transgressions of others donít give you permission to violate any rule you like.

exactly which is my pont with Mark Mcguire. Jsut cuz he livd in the juice era, doesnt make him more innocent than others.

thanks for the perfect analogy. how ironic.

RBA
08-05-2006, 10:03 PM
Avoiding questions makes him guilty? Better alert every law school in America, the burden of proof just changed.


This is not a court.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 10:05 PM
are you friggin kidding me??? those are retarded questions. Protein shakes? Creatine? If thes are real questions coming from you, then you should just delete all your posts in this thread and go play with your Starting Lineup Figurines. idiot.

Steroids are illegal. Period. Personally I dont think they should be but they are.

So lets say you work as a construction worker...loong hours... all your co workers are doing blow in the Johhny On the Spot so they can stay awake all day and night. You get caught doing blow in your Chevy. You gona tell me you shouldnt get in trouble?

Name calling is one way to avoid answering the questions.

Theoretically, Creatine gives an athlete an advantage by helping to make them stronger than they would be by simply lifting weights, correct? What do steroids do?

After you figure that one out, maybe you could explain to me what a Starting Lineup figurine is.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 10:05 PM
exactly which is my pont with Mark Mcguire. Jsut cuz he livd in the juice era, doesnt make him more innocent than others.

thanks for the perfect analogy. how ironic.

Doesn't make him guilty either, as you seem to believe.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 10:10 PM
No. Yes. Yes (after some time, i think he's earned some credibility).

To believe otherise is asinine.


and to honestly honestly think he only took Andro to get that big that quickly is terriblely ridiculous. I have a degree in biochemistry from Miami University and did research when i lived in atlanta with some team trainers (how i know some braves players) and believe me, andro can't do that for ANYONE. its metabolically impossible.

Much like Canseco, if all you're looking for is attention, you can find it under "A" in the dictionary...not far from asinine.

It appears that's not all you share with Canseco...Kal, you're like the south side of a north-bound duck.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:12 PM
Name calling is one way to avoid answering the questions.

Theoretically, Creatine gives an athlete an advantage by helping to make them stronger than they would be by simply lifting weights, correct? What do steroids do?

After you figure that one out, maybe you could explain to me what a Starting Lineup figurine is.

Creatine is a molecular product produced when ATP (adeno-triphosphate) molecules bind at a site located in your muscles(a,z, h bands) to contract.

Creatine ingested as a supplement, helps absorb instramuscular water only, as well as provide creatine molecules to help with musclular contraction but only "used" at a .0001% yield rate per mg according to studies. So the extra volume gained through creatine is intramuscular water, and sometimes subcutaenous water, and strength is reaches a plateau after about 4 weeks due to negative feedback inhibtion.

Steroids? I mean do you want me to get into the Endocrinology of steroids right now? androgenic versus anabolic. the binding sites for steroid molecules to promote mass growth and increased productin of HGH in the pituitary gland (not including external HGH supplementation)?

tellme if you want me to or i'll stop righ tnow.

and starting line up figurines??cmon bro quit being so coy

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:14 PM
Much like Canseco, if all you're looking for is attention, you can find it under "A" in the dictionary...not far from asinine.

It appears that's not all you share with Canseco...Kal, you're like the south side of a north-bound duck.

so because we share the same trait as being a reds fan, yet I may have differnt opinions and viewpoints than you, i'm an attention seeker? lol alright bro.

and whatever that last redneck phrase used was I dont get it. a south side of a north bound duck? omg i take offense to such name calling! moderators get this guy!
lol

chill out bro. its a discussion board.

RBA
08-05-2006, 10:18 PM
Mods, time to close the thread.

Crash Davis
08-05-2006, 10:19 PM
Creatine is a molecular product produced when ATP (adeno-triphosphate) molecules bind at a site located in your muscles(a,z, h bands) to contract.

Creatine ingested as a supplement, helps absorb instramuscular water only, as well as provide creatine molecules to help with musclular contraction but only "used" at a .0001% yield rate per mg according to studies. So the extra volume gained through creatine is intramuscular water, and sometimes subcutaenous water, and strength is reaches a plateau after about 4 weeks due to negative feedback inhibtion.

Steroids? I mean do you want me to get into the Endocrinology of steroids right now? androgenic versus anabolic. the binding sites for steroid molecules to promote mass growth and increased productin of HGH in the pituitary gland (not including external HGH supplementation)?

tellme if you want me to or i'll stop righ tnow.

and starting line up figurines??cmon bro quit being so coy

They both make you stronger, right? They're both an advantage for a baseball player.

That was the point of the question. We all know steroids have a much bigger impact. The point is that it's a matter of degree. If you can take something like Creatine that makes you stronger than you would be naturally, why isn't that cheating? And where does the question of good for your health vs. bad for your health fit in? I think they're legit questions.

I mean, if you want to technical on the illegality factor, Babe Ruth drank beer during prohibition. He's in the HOF.

And, no, I don't know what a Starting Lineup figurine is. I know what a figurine is...and I think I can figure out what a starting lineup is...Where the two meet is probably around Dungeons & Dragons or Star Wars. I guess my childhood was empty without them.

Newman4
08-05-2006, 10:21 PM
So you have no proof, yet he's a cheater? It's not what you think, it's what you can prove. There is no proof McGwire took any illegal drugs while playing. You might not like that, but it's a fact.

McGwire won't say he did obviously. No one took pictures or had hidden cameras back then watching him, so all you can go on is his actions, responses to questions and others who called him out. If you take all that into consideration, there IS enough "proof" to make a reasonable assumption that he was on steriods. Re-read RBA's post.

Is Barry innocent too? Heck, while you're discussing court, O.J. was found innocent too remember. :rolleyes: Just because he's not absolutely caught 100% 'red handed' or there's not enough evidence for "proof" in your opinion, doesn't mean it didn't do it. What's with the man love for McGwire? Is that you George? :laugh:

Newman4
08-05-2006, 10:22 PM
Mods, time to close the thread.

That's kinda hard to do when Reds4Life (somehow a mod) is part of the arguing. :rolleyes:

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:23 PM
They both make you stronger, right? They're both an advantage for a baseball player.

That was the point of the question. We all know steroids have a much bigger impact. The point is that it's a matter of degree. If you can take something like Creatine that makes you stronger than you would be naturally, why isn't that cheating? And where does the question of good for your health vs. bad for your health fit in? I think they're legit questions.

I mean, if you want to technical on the illegality factor, Babe Ruth drank beer during prohibition. He's in the HOF.

And, no, I don't know what a Starting Lineup figurine is. I know what a figurine is...and I think I can figure out what a starting lineup is...Where the two meet is probably around Dungeons & Dragons or Star Wars. I guess my childhood was empty without them.

you obviously didnt read or understand my analysis on creatine monophosphate. so its retarded for me to repeat myself to you. you are talking about intramuscular/subcutaneous water, versus endocrinal manipulation. the endocrine system is arguably the most important system in your body (or at least tie with the CNS). So I will drop this since this is waaay above your head.

And if you wanna bring up drinking and prohibition as an comparable situation, lets see if steroids is legal and OTC in 25 years...think so? hmmm i doubt it bro.

KalDanielsfan
08-05-2006, 10:24 PM
McGwire won't say he did obviously. No one took pictures or had hidden cameras back then watching him, so all you can go on is his actions, responses to questions and others who called him out. If you take all that into consideration, there IS enough "proof" to make a reasonable assumption that he was on steriods. Re-read RBA's post.

Is Barry innocent too? Heck, while you're discussing court, O.J. was found innocent too remember. :rolleyes: Just because he's not absolutely caught 100% 'red handed' or there's not enough evidence for "proof" in your opinion, doesn't mean it didn't do it. What's with the man love for McGwire? Is that you George? :laugh:


hell yeah Lawrence County! :)

Joseph
08-05-2006, 10:25 PM
I think this has gone on long enough gang.

Reds4Life
08-05-2006, 10:26 PM
McGwire won't say he did obviously. No one took pictures or had hidden cameras back then watching him, so all you can go on is his actions, responses to questions and others who called him out. If you take all that into consideration, there IS enough "proof" to make a reasonable assumption that he was on steriods. Re-read RBA's post.

Is Barry innocent too? Heck, while you're discussing court, O.J. was found innocent too remember. :rolleyes: Just because he's not absolutely caught 100% 'red handed' or there's not enough evidence for "proof" in your opinion, doesn't mean it didn't do it. What's with the man love for McGwire? Is that you George? :laugh:

And just because you think he did something doesn't make him guilty.

I'm not a Barry Bonds fan, but to date there is no concrete evidence he did anything that would violate MLB regulations. If there were, he'd be suspended right now. Feds might get him on tax evasion, but MLB will never take action against him. Why? No verifiable evidence.

It's not "man love", it's called having an opinion supported by verifiable fact.