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View Full Version : Not to harp on you know what trade, but were there some internal problems?



GOREDSGO32
08-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Is there something missing here that no media or insiders found out about? Did JimmyB kidnap one of Krivsky's family members or have a racy videotape of him? I was all for a trade like this, but it just becomes more perturbing, not just from Majeski's completely inept pitching but from the other trades we made.

We traded two everyday players, and really, lets be honest - even though Kearns had more K's in his resume than a David Duke Rally - and Felipe Lopez's fielding was pretty bad ... both of these guys were above average everyday players and could get hot and be All-Stars every few years or so, like Lopez was last year.

So far it turns out Majeski has been horribly bad - worse than some of the players we DFA'd, but the revamped bullpen is still MUCH better than it was. But the players that are doing good, what did we give for them?

OK Bray is doing pretty great, but even still - I don't see how you can justify trading an above average - and in a good streak a very good player in either Kearns or Lopez even on a one to one deal for him. Say that you even do make that trade for Bray one to one, for say Kearns for Bray - a rookie reliever (which sounds bad enough) ... try trading Lopez for Royce Clayton and a guy with a 15 ERA or so on your team - and spare minor league parts.

It's not even this that gets me, this trade has been overanalyzed over and over and over again - but the fact what we gave for OTHER guys makes it seem so weird.

For Eddie Guardado, who was stuck in a rut in Seattle, but a proven closer and reliever over his career and has like a 1 ERA with us now - what did we give? I can't even remember. I think it was straight cash, maybe a low level player in the minors.

For Brad Lohse, who was having a bad year for sure in Minnesota and hated it there - we gave up a low level Single A pitcher. He comes here and has a great start for us today and even if he just has his career stats of under a 5 ERA, he would be better than Milton as a starter.

And then for Rheal Cormier - an old guy for sure, no doubt .. but the guy with the BEST ERA of any releiver in the NL, we gave a Triple A starter.

I just don't get it, its been beaten in the ground a million times by now, no doubt .. and I'm sure this is doing even more of it ... but there HAD to be some kind of internal problem we are missing here. We traded much, much less for much, much more proven guys in all our other trades this year - even ones not involving pitchers. It just seems so out of the norm, kinda like bowling a 260 score in three games then bowling a 74. It's just so out there, it doesn't comprehend.

Even then, say Kearns and Lopez had bad clubhouse influence, heck say they even were sleeping with Narron's wife or something - I don't see if you were having an open auction for these players why some big hitter teams wouldn't actively trade some major prospect or solid relievers for them. We've basically gotten out of this deal so far, Bill Bray - a rookie reliever. I think teams in a major playoff hunt like the Yankees or A's or anyone would have paid a lot more if we wanted to drop these guys for some reason.

I just don't understand the rationale under any terms, its made it much harder to understand when we pick up guys like Guardado and Cormier for practically nothing, and who are much more name players than what we got for some major players.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 05:58 PM
It's the most mystifying trade I've ever witnessed as a follower of the Reds.

It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.

GOREDSGO32
08-06-2006, 06:01 PM
I don't know about fired, because every other deal he's made has been pretty awesome. How long are Lopez and Keanrs under contract for? Was that an issue? I just don't get the deal under any circumstances.

Matt700wlw
08-06-2006, 06:06 PM
It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.


Oh, please.

wheels
08-06-2006, 06:06 PM
Well, they did free up some serious jack, so if they wanna pony up for some FA's, the money should be readily available.

I think Wayne saw an opportunity to unload some future contract headaches, while making an attempt at shoring up the pen.

I like the idea of what he was trying to do.

Clayton and Majewski, however, are torpedoing the club's chances right now.

HumnHilghtFreel
08-06-2006, 06:08 PM
I think if they waited a little longer, they could have gotten more for their money. It seemed to me that the price for bullpen arms went down sufficiently as the deadline drew nearer. At the time that they pulled the trigger on the Kearns/Lopez deal it seemed like a lot of teams were holding out their players for a king's ransom, which it seems Wayne paid. Either way, it's in the past now and we have to live with what we currently have. Even as bad as the trade can look at times(Majewski's struggles amplifying it), I still feel that it has given us a better shot at winning. If you look back and look at some of the player's opinions of the trade at the time(excluding Dunn), most of them thought it was great. I'm assuming there was some kind of a chemistry problem. And if you remember we played great immediately after the trade. Then we simply had a slump, which all teams go through from time to time.
All said, I think we need to stop dwelling on it and continue to look to the future. We have the division within reach right now.

Kc61
08-06-2006, 06:13 PM
I said it at the time, and repeat. The two big issues with the trade are:

1. Is Majewski any good? So far, the answer is clearly no.

2. How do we replace FeLo at short. So far, Clayton/Castro have been ok for this year. But the longer term answer is unclear. (If Phillips, who is the second baseman?)

flyer85
08-06-2006, 06:37 PM
Bowden used Jedi mind tricks

reds44
08-06-2006, 06:41 PM
It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.
:laugh:

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 07:33 PM
:laugh:

A lot of managers hurt their teams long term with deadline trades; it happens--the push to want to win NOW is very important. But I don't know when a deadline deal has hurt a GM's team in the long term as well as the NOW more than this deal for Maj and stuff. That takes a special kind of dumb to actually make your team WORSE with a deadline deal made to contend. He's basically taken every bit of good he's done in the early going and squandered it with his deadline mess.

reds44
08-06-2006, 07:52 PM
A lot of managers hurt their teams long term with deadline trades; it happens--the push to want to win NOW is very important. But I don't know when a deadline deal has hurt a GM's team in the long term as well as the NOW more than this deal for Maj and stuff. That takes a special kind of dumb to actually make your team WORSE with a deadline deal made to contend. He's basically taken every bit of good he's done in the early going and squandered it with his deadline mess.
Ok, but that doesn't mean he should be fired. He hasn't even had a full offseason yet.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 07:58 PM
I don't know about fired, because every other deal he's made has been pretty awesome. How long are Lopez and Keanrs under contract for? Was that an issue? I just don't get the deal under any circumstances.
Not sure about every other...you never know if the Guardado (been awesome since the trade, but this forearm thing is a little scary) and Lohse (Ward was lights out in single A) deals will come back to haunt us.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 08:09 PM
Not sure about every other...you never know if the Guardado (been awesome since the trade, but this forearm thing is a little scary) and Lohse (Ward was lights out in single A) deals will come back to haunt us.The Guardado and Lohse deals were the ones I liked.

Ltlabner
08-06-2006, 09:17 PM
For Eddie Guardado, who was stuck in a rut in Seattle, but a proven closer and reliever over his career and has like a 1 ERA with us now - what did we give? I can't even remember. I think it was straight cash, maybe a low level player in the minors.

For Brad Lohse, who was having a bad year for sure in Minnesota and hated it there - we gave up a low level Single A pitcher. He comes here and has a great start for us today and even if he just has his career stats of under a 5 ERA, he would be better than Milton as a starter.

And then for Rheal Cormier - an old guy for sure, no doubt .. but the guy with the BEST ERA of any releiver in the NL, we gave a Triple A starter.


If you are using these trades as proof that we got should have gotten a lot more for Kearns and Lopez take some time to think about what you have written. I love Everyday Eddie (see my avitar) but this was an older fella (read: vet, the worst of all sins a player can commit), who lost his closer role and was having sholder problems. Loshe was a 5th starter type with a high ERA and people flipped out when we got him. Cromier did have a low ERA, but again he is 39 (I think) so not exactly a spring chicken.

I like EE and Cormier, and think Loshe can do well if he is used correctly, but my point is that we gave up very little for these guys because of the negatives (age, ERA, lost closer status, etc) they carried. It's not like we gave up a "low A prospect" and got a 25 year old fireballer with a .089 ERA and 3 out pitches.

There were a few people here who didn't like Majic the minute the trade was announced, but they had stats and reasoning for their opinions. It doesn't help that he's pitched horribly since he's been here. But let me ask this in response, if he came here and pitched very well, would we have all the continued second guessing over the trade? I doubt it.

Ltlabner
08-06-2006, 09:20 PM
It's the most mystifying trade I've ever witnessed as a follower of the Reds.

It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.


FCB, please tell me you are kidding.

You think he should be fired?

Please tell us this is a fit of rage because of todays loss and not a reasoned position you are now taking.

Because if it isn't what you are saying is that GM's that make deals who's outcome looks shakey after a month should be fired. If the fans are not happy right away, and love the trade, they should be fired. If the results are not imediatley obvious, they should be fired.

Team Clark
08-06-2006, 09:34 PM
Oh, please.


I know. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me scratch my head....

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 09:37 PM
FCB, please tell me you are kidding.

You think he should be fired?

Please tell us this is a fit of rage because of todays loss and not a reasoned position you are now taking.

Because if it isn't what you are saying is that GM's that make deals who's outcome looks shakey after a month should be fired. If the fans are not happy right away, and love the trade, they should be fired. If the results are not imediatley obvious, they should be fired.

How does this deadline trade help now or the future relative to what we gave up?

BEETTLEBUG
08-06-2006, 09:48 PM
Does Magic Man have options if so Who would they bring up or do they bring Mercker back off DL without rehab stint which he does not want anyway?

flyer85
08-06-2006, 09:50 PM
Does Magic Man have options what if he goes down and pitches like Burns has (lights out)?

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 09:51 PM
what if he goes down and pitches like Burns has (lights out)?

Leave him there.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 09:54 PM
what if he goes down and pitches like Burns has (lights out)?

You bring him up and let him pitch.

Comparing Mike Burns MLB track record to Gary Majewski just isn't reasonable.

Majewski had arm troubles earlier this year and he has pitched a ton this year. He's also been very unlucky to this point.

He needs some extended rest so he can start missing bats again and can get more movement on his pitches. He might just need confidence and maybe he can get it in Louisville.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 09:54 PM
Leave him there.but ... that would mean he is likely a AAAA pitcher.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 09:56 PM
but ... that would mean he is likely a AAAA pitcher.

I think he is a AAAA pitcher, but other teams don't need to know that...maybe he can be a chip in an offseason trade.

Ltlabner
08-06-2006, 09:57 PM
How does this deadline trade help now or the future relative to what we gave up?

I don't want to rehash the trade for the billionth time. We all know how everybody else feels about "the trade".

Let's assume this is in fact, the worst trade in the history of the franchise. We have to assume that because as yet we don't know the outcome of the trade and I'm not willing to just concede the point that it's horrible because FCB said so.

But assuming this is the worst trade ever. Are you serriously saying that a GM should be canned when they make one trade that doesn't get back more than went out?

If the Reds would have won today, and people weren't resonding emotionally, would you serriously be calling for Kriv to be fired?

flyer85
08-06-2006, 09:58 PM
The BPIs of Burns and Majewski make them look like very similar pitchers.

TeamBoone
08-06-2006, 09:59 PM
If you are using these trades as proof that we got should have gotten a lot more for Kearns and Lopez take some time to think about what you have written. I love Everyday Eddie (see my avitar) but this was an older fella (read: vet, the worst of all sins a player can commit), who lost his closer role and was having sholder problems.

Eddie was not obtained in the Kearns/Lopez trade.




If the Reds would have won today, and people weren't resonding emotionally, would you serriously be calling for Kriv to be fired?

Majic didn't lose the game today... JN did by having no one warming and leaving him in there to have a melt down.

I don't want JN's head on a platter for it (I don't think), but I do think WK, as his boss, should have a talk with the guy about some of his many managerial gaffes lately. That's what bosses do, after all.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:00 PM
He needs some extended rest so he can start missing bats again he has never missed enough bats at the major level for extended success(why I didn't like acquiring him in the first place.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:00 PM
If the Reds would have won today, and people weren't resonding emotionally, would you serriously be calling for Kriv to be fired?

My gut said fire him when the trade went down, and my mind says fire him now.

Trades like "the trade" aren't just "one single" trade that fails to get value in return, trades like "the trade" set franchises back several seasons.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:01 PM
he has never missed enough bats at the major level for extended success(why I didn't like acquiring him in the first place.

I never said he has. But he sure as hell missed more than he is now.

It's not rocket science about Majewski. He was able to get away with his stuff in RFK, not gonna be as lucky in GABP. I think Wayne just made a bad read and he felt he could make the move because of the play of Deno.

At this level you can't make drastic mistakes with trading chips like Kearns and Lopez, but Wayne missed this one.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:02 PM
The Guardado and Lohse deals were the ones I liked.
I liked the Cormier deal. I liked the Guardado deal. The Washington Memorial and Lohse were the ones I still get nauseous about.

Ltlabner
08-06-2006, 10:02 PM
Does Magic Man have options if so Who would they bring up or do they bring Mercker back off DL without rehab stint which he does not want anyway?

So let me get this right. Majic has struggled and not pitched well so he should be banished to AAA to get his grove back.

EE has struggled with the simple concept of throwing a ball to 1st base but if mearly loses playing time people want Narron hung from a tree.

I know, I know. Giving up outs, committing errors that lead to big scoring innings and demorilize the team don't have nearly the impact of a blown bullpen effort.

I'm not arguing that Majic hasn't been bad, he has. But let's get some consistancy in our arguments here.

Ltlabner
08-06-2006, 10:05 PM
Eddie was not obtained in the Kearns/Lopez trade.

I didn't say he was. I was comparing what it took to get Eddie vs what it took to get Bray/Majic/et al.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:05 PM
I liked the Cormier deal. I didn't and WK compunded that by giving a dime a dozen pitcher an extension. I think the odds are that Germano would be every bit as effective as Cormier. Cormier K rate was so low as to be of the charts, his BB rate was higher. He had just been extremely lucky this year(and used properly), he certainly hasn't added skills in the last few years.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:07 PM
I didn't. I think the odds are that Germano would be every bit as effective as Cormier. Cormier K rate was so low as to be of the charts, his BB rate was higher. He had just been extremely lucky this year(and used properly), he certainly hasn't added skills in the last few years.

The argument certainly could be made that holding on to Germano might have saved the Reds from making the mistake of acquiring Lohse.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:13 PM
The argument certainly could be made that holding on to Germano might have saved the Reds from making the mistake of acquiring Lohse.we'll see if that is a mistake. I didn't mind it as Lohse had basically been the "unluckiest" pitcher in the majors and has a quality arm(those do not grow on trees). He could turn out to be a pitcher who needed a change of scenery as he was not happy in Minnesota.

There are pitchers who have a potential upside and he was one as well as having the ability to perform multiple roles.

The trade for EG, Kearns for Bray and the deal for Lohse I could have easily lived with.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:13 PM
I didn't and WK compunded that by giving a dime a dozen pitcher an extension. I think the odds are that Germano would be every bit as effective as Cormier. Cormier K rate was so low as to be of the charts, his BB rate was higher. He had just been extremely lucky this year(and used properly), he certainly hasn't added skills in the last few years.
Oh....the extension I had major problems with. But I thought Germano was a low risk offer for someone who could help this year. Giving up Ward for Lohse and not getting any money with him was the worst deal.

Cormier should only be a matchup guy. It seems he struggles when he gets to the third batter and beyond. But Rheal would probably be more effective this season than Germano.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:16 PM
If I have to take a chance I will always take it with a quality arm he has a chance to be good if they put it together.

Go check out the 4 starts Hudson has put together for KC against top notch competition

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:16 PM
The argument certainly could be made that holding on to Germano might have saved the Reds from making the mistake of acquiring Lohse.
I doubt it, due to the following reasons:

1) It appeared that WK got nervous at the deadline, so he was making deals no matter what happened to Germano.
2) He wasn't going to be satisfied until he remade almost the whole bullpen.
3) You know that Wayne gets weak in the knees whenever he hears someone's name from Minny.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:19 PM
If I have to take a chance I will always take it with a quality arm he has a chance to be good if they put it together.

Go check out the 4 starts Hudson has put together for KC against top notch competition

Hudson's not "putting it together" and neither is Lohse.

His ceiling is a middling reliever. He is awful. And a headcase. Just what the Reds need.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:20 PM
If I have to take a chance I will always take it with a quality arm he has a chance to be good if they put it together.

Go check out the 4 starts Hudson has put together for KC against top notch competition
If Lohse started the season in Cincy and had those numbers, he would have been DFAed. Taking a shot on him isn't a big deal, but not getting $ with him and giving a legit pitching prospect to Minnesota is the worst part of it all.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:20 PM
Hudson's not "putting it together" and neither is Lohse.

His ceiling is a middling reliever. He is awful. And a headcase. Just what the Reds need.

Exactly what we need.

Did you happen to watch Germano and Mays pitch this year? Tremendously horrible stuff from both. At least Lohse has put together league average years before.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:21 PM
If Lohse started the season in Cincy and had those numbers, he would have been DFAed. Taking a shot on him isn't a big deal, but not getting $ with him and getting a legit pitching prospect is the worst part of it all.

Yeah, the fact that they didn't send money and a clinical psychologist with Lohse is another kick in the junk.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:22 PM
At least Lohse has put together league average years before.

One.

Back in 2003.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:22 PM
Hudson's not "putting it together" and neither is Lohse. maybe not. Guys like Majewski and Cormier never put it together because they don't have they stuff. They oscillate between the good and the bad but their upside is limited.

Most on this board thought Harang would not amount to anything, I'm think the odds of Lohse helping out are better than Claussen.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:23 PM
maybe not. Guys like Majewski and Cormier never put it together because they don't have they stuff. They oscillate between the good and the bad but their upside is limited.

Most on this board thought Harang would not amount to anything, I'm think the odds of Lohse helping out are better than Claussen.

I don't think Lohse or Claussen have any business on a MLB team.

I liked Harang. I didn't think he'd be this good. But I liked him and loved the trade that brought him here.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:24 PM
I don't think Lohse or Claussen have any business on a MLB team.

You are living in an era of truly crappy starting pitching. The days of having a solid #5 on the majority of teams just isn't there.

League average from Lohse and I'll be happy. And that's possible with a change of scenery and pitching in the NL for the first time.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:25 PM
I don't think Lohse or Claussen have any business on a MLB team.somebody has to start. I'll take my chances with the"stuff" guy every time.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:26 PM
You are living in an era of truly crappy starting pitching. The days of having a solid #5 on the majority of teams just isn't there.

League average from Lohse and I'll be happy. And that's possible with a change of scenery and pitching in the NL for the first time.

I was the first to admit that Lohse will get a brief "boost" from the NL scene change, but that's sure as hell not going to last. Even Jeff Weaver made one good start for the Cards.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:26 PM
I don't think Lohse or Claussen have any business on a MLB team.but you've said that about the majority of Reds pitchers. :D

They ought to let Larue try pitching

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:26 PM
somebody has to start. I'll take my chances with the"stuff" guy every time.

Do we have an option?

Didn't think so.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:27 PM
I was the first to admit that Lohse will get a brief "boost" from the NL scene change, but that's sure as hell not going to last. Even Jeff Weaver made one good start for the Cards.

Jeff Weaver pitched for the Dodgers for a decent length of time.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:27 PM
Even Jeff Weaver made one good start for the Cards.and might make another tomorrow against a team that now struggles with RHP. Especially since EE won't be in the lineup.

flyer85
08-06-2006, 10:30 PM
Was their a sign today that Lohse has some potential upside? Yes, the 7 Ks in 5 innings.

Claussen had one start the entire season where he struck out more than a batter an inning.

Falls City Beer
08-06-2006, 10:32 PM
Was their a sign today that Lohse has some potential upside? Yes, the 7 Ks in 5 innings.

Claussen had one start the entire season where he struck out more than a batter an inning.

Yeah, Germano had eight. It happens. Team's never seen a guy before, stuff like that happens.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:39 PM
and might make another tomorrow against a team that now struggles with RHP. Especially since EE won't be in the lineup.
And especially when, b/c of EE sitting, the cleanup hitter looks like a 3rd grader vs righties.

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:39 PM
And especially when, b/c of EE sitting, the cleanup hitter looks like a 3rd grader vs righties.

What happened to Edwin?

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:42 PM
What happened to Edwin?
He makes errors. :D

Cedric
08-06-2006, 10:45 PM
He makes errors. :D

Serious question. Did Narron say he was out of the lineup tommorow or is this just sarcasm/negative Redszone?

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 10:51 PM
Serious question. Did Narron say he was out of the lineup tommorow or is this just sarcasm/negative Redszone?
Sarcasm/negative Redszone. But why wouldn't he play RA? He's been locked in as the cleanup guy all season.

jimbo
08-06-2006, 11:03 PM
I don't think Lohse or Claussen have any business on a MLB team.


You may have a point with Claussen, but Lohse throws 95 mph and has lots of movement on his breaking pitches, including a decent sinker. That is major league material. I'm not sure what's happened in the past, but he definitely has what it takes to be a decent MLB pitcher.

Heath
08-06-2006, 11:06 PM
It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.

Dude, you really need to lay off the FCB. Its making you delusional.

I don't think one trade is making or breaking WayneK's ideal. I think it was a decent trade which will move Phillips to his natural position at short and freed up bad contracts and future headaches.

Be honest, this year's pennant race is a bonus. Enjoy it.

Heath
08-06-2006, 11:09 PM
Serious question. Did Narron say he was out of the lineup tommorow or is this just sarcasm/negative Redszone?

Just the redszone.com of RA's past performance indicates future results for Narron's lineup.

If Narron was a stockbroker the way he creates lineups, he'd be living in the refrigerator box drinking Thunderbird.

KronoRed
08-06-2006, 11:09 PM
This threads title made me think the Reds had a bad case of gas
:dunno:

aodaniel
08-06-2006, 11:25 PM
Is there something missing here that no media or insiders found out about? Did JimmyB kidnap one of Krivsky's family members or have a racy videotape of him? I was all for a trade like this, but it just becomes more perturbing, not just from Majeski's completely inept pitching but from the other trades we made.

We traded two everyday players, and really, lets be honest - even though Kearns had more K's in his resume than a David Duke Rally - and Felipe Lopez's fielding was pretty bad ... both of these guys were above average everyday players and could get hot and be All-Stars every few years or so, like Lopez was last year.

So far it turns out Majeski has been horribly bad - worse than some of the players we DFA'd, but the revamped bullpen is still MUCH better than it was. But the players that are doing good, what did we give for them?

OK Bray is doing pretty great, but even still - I don't see how you can justify trading an above average - and in a good streak a very good player in either Kearns or Lopez even on a one to one deal for him. Say that you even do make that trade for Bray one to one, for say Kearns for Bray - a rookie reliever (which sounds bad enough) ... try trading Lopez for Royce Clayton and a guy with a 15 ERA or so on your team - and spare minor league parts.

It's not even this that gets me, this trade has been overanalyzed over and over and over again - but the fact what we gave for OTHER guys makes it seem so weird.

For Eddie Guardado, who was stuck in a rut in Seattle, but a proven closer and reliever over his career and has like a 1 ERA with us now - what did we give? I can't even remember. I think it was straight cash, maybe a low level player in the minors.

For Brad Lohse, who was having a bad year for sure in Minnesota and hated it there - we gave up a low level Single A pitcher. He comes here and has a great start for us today and even if he just has his career stats of under a 5 ERA, he would be better than Milton as a starter.

And then for Rheal Cormier - an old guy for sure, no doubt .. but the guy with the BEST ERA of any releiver in the NL, we gave a Triple A starter.

I just don't get it, its been beaten in the ground a million times by now, no doubt .. and I'm sure this is doing even more of it ... but there HAD to be some kind of internal problem we are missing here. We traded much, much less for much, much more proven guys in all our other trades this year - even ones not involving pitchers. It just seems so out of the norm, kinda like bowling a 260 score in three games then bowling a 74. It's just so out there, it doesn't comprehend.

Even then, say Kearns and Lopez had bad clubhouse influence, heck say they even were sleeping with Narron's wife or something - I don't see if you were having an open auction for these players why some big hitter teams wouldn't actively trade some major prospect or solid relievers for them. We've basically gotten out of this deal so far, Bill Bray - a rookie reliever. I think teams in a major playoff hunt like the Yankees or A's or anyone would have paid a lot more if we wanted to drop these guys for some reason.

I just don't understand the rationale under any terms, its made it much harder to understand when we pick up guys like Guardado and Cormier for practically nothing, and who are much more name players than what we got for some major players.

Search for a thread by Team Clark called "The Skinny". This will give you some insight to behind the scenes stuff.

MartyFan
08-06-2006, 11:50 PM
How does this deadline trade help now or the future relative to what we gave up?

A couple of ways.

1) it frees up cash to go for FA pitching in the off season...the Reds would have been on the hook for some major jack to these two guys.

2) it brings into the system a reliever who looks as though he can OWn other teams...one who can go to long relief though he is struggling now and ne in the minors that could be a future starter.

3) It opens a spot for Deno who has done everything he can do in AAA...he may not be the Austin Kearns of this year, this year but he certainly can match anything we got out of Kearns the rest of the years he played for us when he couldn't stay healthy.

4) the SS position can be freely addressed in the offseason...Clayton over the course of his career has been a better fielder than Lopez...Lopez obviously has a better bat but here's the thing, Clayton can go bye-bye after this year.

Those are a few ways I can see that this is a good deal for the Reds.

edabbs44
08-06-2006, 11:52 PM
A couple of ways.

1) it frees up cash to go for FA pitching in the off season...the Reds would have been on the hook for some major jack to these two guys.

2) it brings into the system a reliever who looks as though he can OWn other teams...one who can go to long relief though he is struggling now and ne in the minors that could be a future starter.

3) It opens a spot for Deno who has done everything he can do in AAA...he may not be the Austin Kearns of this year, this year but he certainly can match anything we got out of Kearns the rest of the years he played for us when he couldn't stay healthy.

4) the SS position can be freely addressed in the offseason...Clayton over the course of his career has been a better fielder than Lopez...Lopez obviously has a better bat but here's the thing, Clayton can go bye-bye after this year.

Those are a few ways I can see that this is a good deal for the Reds.
Regarding #1, there is nothing that says this frees up millions for next year. You cannot assume that the $8 or 10 million that would have been spent on these guys next year is actually going to be spent. Ever hear of a salary dump? This might have been a pre-emptive strike.

Newman4
08-07-2006, 12:22 AM
A couple of ways.

1) it frees up cash to go for FA pitching in the off season...the Reds would have been on the hook for some major jack to these two guys.

2) it brings into the system a reliever who looks as though he can OWn other teams...one who can go to long relief though he is struggling now and ne in the minors that could be a future starter.

3) It opens a spot for Deno who has done everything he can do in AAA...he may not be the Austin Kearns of this year, this year but he certainly can match anything we got out of Kearns the rest of the years he played for us when he couldn't stay healthy.

4) the SS position can be freely addressed in the offseason...Clayton over the course of his career has been a better fielder than Lopez...Lopez obviously has a better bat but here's the thing, Clayton can go bye-bye after this year.

Those are a few ways I can see that this is a good deal for the Reds.

While I agree with the rationale and feel as though what was given up (e.g. Kearns/Lopez) was expendable, the major problem is the return and has been the real point of discussion. The 'What Ifs' and 'Could they have...' thoughts register in everyone's mind. The only thing I can imagine is that Lopez and Kearns have stated to WK that they are going to be a pain in the ass during the Arb years and want LTCs. If that is the case , then WK got rid of them before he had to make a true salary dump and get a Casey-like return. Plus, it filled a need with what he got back. I also speculate that there was a spin off deal in the works that fell through. Just my .02.

IslandRed
08-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Regarding #1, there is nothing that says this frees up millions for next year. You cannot assume that the $8 or 10 million that would have been spent on these guys next year is actually going to be spent. Ever hear of a salary dump? This might have been a pre-emptive strike.

Lindner's gone, remember?

But even if you want to assume that Castellini is no different and he's pumping up the Reds out of one side of his mouth and ordering a payroll slash for next year with the other, no matter how you slice it, the money is part of the equation. Regardless of whether the 2007 payroll is $50-60-70 million, money that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez will go to other players. What form that will take, we don't know yet. If the payroll's going up, maybe it means we can pursue free agents. If it's going down, maybe it means we don't have to trade Adam Dunn. Beats me. But I'm not going to pre-emptively hang Castellini for Lindner's offenses.

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 11:22 AM
Lindner's gone, remember?

But even if you want to assume that Castellini is no different and he's pumping up the Reds out of one side of his mouth and ordering a payroll slash for next year with the other, no matter how you slice it, the money is part of the equation. Regardless of whether the 2007 payroll is $50-60-70 million, money that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez will go to other players. What form that will take, we don't know yet. If the payroll's going up, maybe it means we can pursue free agents. If it's going down, maybe it means we don't have to trade Adam Dunn. Beats me. But I'm not going to pre-emptively hang Castellini for Lindner's offenses.

Castellini has given me no reason to believe that he's going to cut payroll. I agree.

westofyou
08-07-2006, 11:26 AM
I know. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me scratch my head....
It's not even worth that action, I just write it off and move on... it's just ridiculous.

Anyway, with a 2 year contract he'll be allowed to try and fix this AMC Gremlin of a franchise, 5 years of stink isn't going away in 6 months, even if Branch Rickey rose from the grave to run the show.

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 11:40 AM
5 years of stink isn't going away in 6 months, even if Branch Rickey rose from the grave to run the show.

I guarantee Branch doesn't make a clunker of a trade like Kearns/Lopez for Maj.

And you can bet your arse Milton's a goner if Branch were kickin' it in the Queen City.

dabvu2498
08-07-2006, 11:43 AM
And you can bet your arse Milton's a goner if Branch were kickin' it in the Queen City.
Well, Branch had 300,000 minor league arms to choose from to replace a guy like Milton.

WayneO has like two.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 11:46 AM
Well, Branch had 300,000 minor league arms to choose from to replace a guy like Milton.

WayneO has like two.

One of which was traded for meaningless BP fodder...

dabvu2498
08-07-2006, 11:50 AM
One of which was traded for meaningless BP fodder...
If you're referring to Ward for Lohse, the odds are pretty good that Ward will never make an MLB appearance as good as Lohse did yesterday.

In fact, the odds are pretty good that he'll never make an MLB appearance.

penantboundreds
08-07-2006, 11:50 AM
meaningless major league fodder...odd comment

kaldaniels
08-07-2006, 12:10 PM
It's the most mystifying trade I've ever witnessed as a follower of the Reds.

It should get Krivsky fired, IMO.

Are you saying you want Krivsky fired...never mind the trade/results of the trade...do you want Krivsky gone???

redsupport
08-07-2006, 12:18 PM
I think he is saying he wishes the Dave revering for Vida Blue trade was blessed