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ITHIKABAND
08-07-2006, 07:34 PM
Just heard this on FSN Ohio. If Gary Majewski was damaged goods when traded he has to go back to the nationals and we get back one of the players we traded. Wouldnt that be amazing! I doublt this will happen though...

Maldez
08-07-2006, 07:34 PM
Anybody else hear about the possibilty of Majewsky having undisclosed shoulder problems before being dealt to Cincy? If Krivsky can prove the Reds were dealt damaged goods by Slick Jimbo, we get a do-over of sorts.

reds44
08-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Really? Would we get Kearns and/or Lopez back?

I don't want to give up Bray though....

westofyou
08-07-2006, 07:36 PM
I'll take Rauch

Bowden did this to the Cards with Brantley.. and that BTW was the last trade the two organizations did.

Does that mean Austin Kearns is the white mans Dmitri Young?

pedro
08-07-2006, 07:36 PM
I'll take Jon Rauch

Matt700wlw
08-07-2006, 07:36 PM
Hal was talking about it with Andy on the radio a little earlier. I don't think the whole deal would have to be redone, (if my understanding is correct), we'd just be able to get something else in place of Majewski.

Something like that -- we'll see.

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2006, 07:37 PM
Huh? That seems to be far fetched.......I'm sure that it's buyer beware. But if it were true who would we take back. I would take Lopez I think.

Mr. Redlegs
08-07-2006, 07:37 PM
My question behind this situation is how does Majewski pass his physical if he's taking cortisone shots everyday?

I'm not doubting that Bowden pulled a fast one but I don't see how that happens.

TOBTTReds
08-07-2006, 07:38 PM
Huh? That seems to be far fetched.......I'm sure that it's buyer beware. But if it were true who would we take back. I would take Lopez I think.

Duh!

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 07:38 PM
If this is true, and it's a big if and a long way to actually happening, I think B.Cast is the man to make it happen. He strikes me as the sort of hardnosed man who would personally call up Bowden and say, "listen here you snake....".

IrishDavidKY
08-07-2006, 07:38 PM
Bring on Rauch!

flyer85
08-07-2006, 07:40 PM
I thought Majewski was a stud

Matt700wlw
08-07-2006, 07:41 PM
I would wonder how the Reds scouts didn't catch this.....but anyway, if it's true, and can be proven, Bowden should be held responsible

nineworldseries
08-07-2006, 07:41 PM
On 700 a few minutes ago they said we would get "a pitcher" back from Washington. I don't think were getting Kearns or Lopez back.

LexingtonRedsFan
08-07-2006, 07:41 PM
Interesting development...if the MRI shows damage then it might come down to the commish's decision on the situation.....

reds44
08-07-2006, 07:42 PM
On 700 a few minutes ago they said we would get "a pitcher" back from Washington. I don't think were getting Kearns or Lopez back.
Ok, but I assume it would have to be a major league pitcher. A guy like Rauch would be awesome.

westofyou
08-07-2006, 07:43 PM
if he's taking cortisone shots everyday?

Nobody takes cortisone shots every day, it's not common that a guy would have more then a few a year, and that's usually under extreme circumstances.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2006, 07:43 PM
Interesting development...if the MRI shows damage then it might come down to the commish's decision on the situation.....

That could take 14 years.... ;)

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2006, 07:44 PM
Duh!

Very funny Aves!:rolleyes:

CincyReds2003
08-07-2006, 07:44 PM
Could it be Jon Rauch?

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 07:45 PM
I thought Majewski was a stud

Well, I guess that answers the question, "will people quit complaining about the trade if Majewski suddenly went away".......;)

CincyReds2003
08-07-2006, 07:45 PM
Or we'll take Cordero.

flyer85
08-07-2006, 07:46 PM
Well, I guess that answers the question, "will people quit complaining about the trade if Majewski suddenly went away".......;)Majewski may go away but it won't be back to the Nationals. If he was damaged goods I would say it is more of a due diligence issue with the Reds.

GOREDSGO32
08-07-2006, 07:47 PM
Whens the last time this happened though? I mean its been several weeks since the trade occured ... has anything in MLB like this happened?

REDREAD
08-07-2006, 07:48 PM
I'm not sure there's a precedent for the commish stepping in and demanding that things be made right.

St Louis sure didn't get anything over Brantley. Even if Maj was hurt at the time of the trade, Bowden can always deny he knew Maj was hurt. Bowden can also say it was public knowledge that Maj had tendonitis earlier this year, so the Reds knew the risk they were taking.

Sorry, but I don't see how anyone is going to pressure Bowden to make this deal right. In the past, I've seen other GMs replace damaged goods, but that's because the offending GM wanted to. No way would Bowden do that out of the kindness of his heart.

In any case, even if we do get compensation down the road, it's too late to reverse the damage. It's not as if Bowden is going to give Kearns or Lopez back, that's for sure.

SeeinRed
08-07-2006, 07:48 PM
How is a player of equal value then determined? I would almost think it would have to be done like arbitration with a mediator. Otherwise Bowden would undoubtedly have the upperhand because Majewsky's value has fallen considereing he is injured. Also, Jim could just say no until Wayne is left with nothing. But then again, Jimbo could be forced to give us a decent player in return to keep his positive reputation, or whats left of it, with the other GM's. This would probably be the end of Bowden's GM status in all of baseball though. All I know is I would like to know is how the process works before my head explodes from thinking about it.:help:

pedro
08-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Majewski may go away but it won't be back to the Nationals. If he was damaged goods I would say it is more of a due diligence issue with the Reds.


I would tend to agree with you unless it can be proven that Bowden lied about Majewski's health.

I also think it has more possibility of sticking just because Bowden has so little credibility around the majors.

If this deal goes get overturned or altered I can see it costing Bowden his job.

Stan Kasten is not a cheat and I doubt he'll put up with one.

jimbo
08-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Nobody takes cortisone shots every day, it's not common that a guy would have more then a few a year, and that's usually under extreme circumstances.

And they are basically a temporary solution that only covers up a more serious problem. If Majewski took one right before the All-Star break with Bowden and the Nationals knowing they were working a deal with the Reds, it would be a pretty serious lack of judgement on Bowden's part and should be punishable.

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Majewski may go away but it won't be back to the Nationals. If he was damaged goods I would say it is more of a due diligence issue with the Reds.

I was just kidding you a bit.

But I do agree. If there is suddenly "proof" that Maj was beat up before the trade it does make you wonder why the Reds weren't able to determine that before the trade.

realreds1
08-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Piecoro said Majewski had been taking anti-inflammatories since he arrived. He took the cortisone shot just recently. Unless he has it wrong, Pic said we could either request one of the former Reds players in the deal back, ask for another pitcher, or send Majewski packing. (?) Seems worth investigating indeed...

CougarQuest
08-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Well, I guess that answers the question, "will people quit complaining about the trade if Majewski suddenly went away".......;)
Is Clayton going back also?
;)

registerthis
08-07-2006, 07:51 PM
If this is true, how the heck did the Reds not catch this? I mean, shame on Bowden if he passed off damaged goods without disclosing, but the Reds have a role to play in this too. If Maj's shoulder problem is so severe as to cause him to pitch as he has recently, then the Reds scouts/physicians should have caught it, regardless of whether it was disclosed by the Nationals or not. That's just ridiculous if something like that "slipped through the cracks."

reds44
08-07-2006, 07:51 PM
Piecoro said Majewski had been taking anti-inflammatories since he arrived. He took the cortisone shot just recently. Unless he has it wrong, Pic said we could either request one of the former Reds players in the deal back, ask for another pitcher, or send Majewski packing. (?) Seems worth investigating indeed...
I know it may be unlikely, but if you do get Kearns or Lopez back who would you take?

I know Lopez plays bad defense, but Freel has been playing great in RF in place of Kearns.

DunnFan44
08-07-2006, 07:51 PM
I think it has been too long. I mean Cincy should of had him checked out right after the deal. I just think he has a dead arm. Last season he pitched a ton of innings, and he is overworked. He needs better conditioning. I think the Reds should just rest him until they need him in late September. The Braves announcers were commenting on this also.

westofyou
08-07-2006, 07:53 PM
If this is true, how the heck did the Reds not catch this?

Let's ask Walt Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 07:53 PM
Caveat emptor.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 07:53 PM
I know it may be unlikely, but if you do get Kearns or Lopez back who would you take?

I know Lopez plays bad defense, but Freel has been playing great in RF in place of Kearns.

Well, this s a far-fetched "what-if", but unquestionably I take back Lopez. I just hate seeing Clayton's bat in the lineup every night. Lopez's defense was pretty atrocious, but Clayton's offensive prowess should be illegal.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Let's ask Walt Jocketty.

Fool me once...

CTA513
08-07-2006, 07:55 PM
I'll take Jon Rauch

:beerme:

realreds1
08-07-2006, 07:55 PM
I guess it really comes down to the logistics here, but could the Reds take ANY Nationals pitcher? I wonder what the rule is on something like this. Or if there is a rule...

pedro
08-07-2006, 07:56 PM
I wonder how much Bowden's history of doing this and general unpopularilty around baseball will work against him in this case?

TeamBoone
08-07-2006, 07:57 PM
Majewski may go away but it won't be back to the Nationals. If he was damaged goods I would say it is more of a due diligence issue with the Reds.

Well, that's not what they said on the pregame show.

They said GM had a cortisone shot just before the All Star game because of an inflamed shoulder (they didn't say which part of the shoulder was inflamed), a fact that was not disclosed prior to the trade. They did not say how they found out about it... maybe GM finally told them, who knows.

Thus, if it can be proven that GM was "damaged good", he would be returned to the Nats for another player (probably a pitcher).

Marty's gonna have a hayday with this one.

reds44
08-07-2006, 07:57 PM
Well, this s a far-fetched "what-if", but unquestionably I take back Lopez. I just hate seeing Clayton's bat in the lineup every night. Lopez's defense was pretty atrocious, but Clayton's offensive prowess should be illegal.
I concur.

realreds1
08-07-2006, 07:57 PM
I wonder how much Bowden's history of doing this and general unpopularilty around baseball will work against him in this case?

I think that's it. If he's now in the doghouse a second time, can we flat-out fleece him? Or would MLB have to step in to mediate the whole thing?

registerthis
08-07-2006, 07:58 PM
I wonder how much Bowden's history of doing this and general unpopularilty around baseball will work against him in this case?

If anything helps the Reds here, I would think it would be this. Bowden doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation amongst MLB GMs.

In other words, I have no idea whether or not this story is accurate, but I certainly wouldn't out it past Bowden to do something like this.

realreds1
08-07-2006, 07:58 PM
They did not say how they found out about it... maybe GM finally told them, who knows.


Maybe Majewski spilled the beans?

reds44
08-07-2006, 07:59 PM
Well, that's not what they said on the pregame show.

They said GM had a cortisone shot just before the All Star game because of an inflamed shoulder (they didn't say which part of the shoulder was inflamed), a fact that was not disclosed prior to the trade. They did not say how they found out about it... maybe GM finally told them, who knows.

Thus, if it can be proven that GM was "damaged good", he would be returned to the Nats for another player (probably a pitcher).

Marty's gonna have a hayday with this one.
We can only hope we can prove it.

Whether is Rauch, Lopez, or Kearns it doesn't matter. I'd prefer FeLo, but I would take any of the 3.

RedsManRick
08-07-2006, 07:59 PM
Didn't this situation arise in a deal between the Pirates and Red Sox a few years back. I'm looking for it now...

KalDanielsfan
08-07-2006, 07:59 PM
i dont understand..wouldnt he have to pass a physical before reporting to the reds???????

flyer85
08-07-2006, 08:00 PM
Is Clayton going back also?
;)he won't fit in a 5 lb bag

realreds1
08-07-2006, 08:00 PM
i dont understand..wouldnt he have to pass a physical before reporting to the reds???????


Hmmm... would the cortisone shot dull/numb the pain of the injury, so that you could pass the physical? Doctor's help needed here.

SeeinRed
08-07-2006, 08:00 PM
Well, that's not what they said on the pregame show.

They said GM had a cortisone shot just before the All Star game because of an inflamed shoulder (they didn't say which part of the shoulder was inflamed), a fact that was not disclosed prior to the trade. They did not say how they found out about it... maybe GM finally told them, who knows.

Thus, if it can be proven that GM was "damaged good", he would be returned to the Nats for another player (probably a pitcher).

Marty's gonna have a hayday with this one.

To answer all of the "how was this not caught" questions. Are Major League players entitled to the privacy acts that normal patients are? If so, you can't fault the Reds. It all comes down to honesty on the part of the Nationals. Therefore, I'll be listening to Marty Rippin JimBo. Goodtimes had by all!

GOREDSGO32
08-07-2006, 08:01 PM
Here I have a parallel story on getting screwed by Bowden.

There once was a guy who was out walking in the woods one day, and found a severely injured snake. So the guy took it, took care of it, and nursed it back to health over the course of several weeks. One day, when the man least expected it, the snake bit the man. As the man lied dying from the venom he asked the snake, "I saved your life, cared for you, and you did this...? Why?" The snake responded, "You knew I was a snake when you took me in."

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 08:02 PM
I really don't think there's any way that MLB wants to set a precedent that countervails the standing mechanism of caveat emptor.

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 08:03 PM
If anything helps the Reds here, I would think it would be this. Bowden doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation amongst MLB GMs.

In other words, I have no idea whether or not this story is accurate, but I certainly wouldn't out it past Bowden to do something like this.

And if MLB does in fact get involved it may further help the Reds case. They want to avoid controversy at all costs so they may put pressure on Bowden to fix things to avoid a big blow up. A blow up that B.Cast would most likely create if all of this wild speculation is true.

Ravenlord
08-07-2006, 08:04 PM
i dont understand..wouldnt he have to pass a physical before reporting to the reds???????
not if it wasn't in the terms of the trade. i believe that after a year with the Reds (because of Majewski's options) they can give him a physical at anytime, but when coming over via trade, you have to stipulate the physical at the time of trade.

i know there's something retarded like that in the CPA.

Reds4Life
08-07-2006, 08:05 PM
I really don't think there's any way that MLB wants to set a precedent that countervails the standing mechanism of caveat emptor.

MLB might not get officially involved, but it wouldn't be surprised if Bowden is sent a message and the Reds and Nats work something out.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 08:06 PM
I really don't think there's any way that MLB wants to set a precedent that countervails the standing mechanism of caveat emptor.

It depends on to what extent, if any, the Nats attempted to cover up Maj's injury to make it undetectable. If the Reds had any opportunity to detect the injury prior to the trade and did not, then I think the Reds are hosed in this one.

If, however, the Nats had Majewski taking a cortisone shot and purposefully neglecting to disclose medical information that would otherwise be unknown or undetectable, then MLB may have a reason to step in and become involved. Caveat emptor doesn't protect a merchant who intentionally disguises damaged goods to a buyer. That's why we have lemon laws.

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2006, 08:06 PM
Didn't Bowden get screwed in a deal with the Padres for Bryan Lawrence over the off-season in a similar way? I don't believe anything was done about that deal. Bowden did not get an MRI because it cost too much?

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 08:07 PM
It depends on to what extent, if any, the Nats attempted to cover up Maj's injury to make it undetectable.

I imagine this will be impossible to prove. And, of course, this isn't a legal issue.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 08:09 PM
I imagine this will be impossible to prove. And, of course, this isn't a legal issue.

Not impossible, but very difficult. To be sure, the odds are against the Reds on this one. Which is why, as others have noted, it wouldn't be completely surprising to see a closed-door agreement worked out on this.

And if RCast really wanted to pursue it, it could become a legal issue, especially when you consider the money involved with baseball transactions. It will never come to that, however.

SteelSD
08-07-2006, 08:10 PM
Well, this is unsurprising. Doubleplusunsurprising.

Joseph
08-07-2006, 08:10 PM
Guys I really would not expect to get Kearns, FeLo, or even Ryan Wagner back. Likewise I would not expect Majewski to return to Washington. What will most probably happen [if anything] is some middle of the road AA pitcher will be offered up as a peace offering of sorts.

Kearns isn't coming back.

FeLo isn't coming back.

Stop speculating. It's simply foolish.

We've got a series with the Cards, lets worry about the players on the field not the GM and players who aren't here now.

Reds4Life
08-07-2006, 08:11 PM
It wouldn't be that hard to prove if Majwesky is the one giving the Reds the info about the treatment he was given before the AS break.

keeganbrick
08-07-2006, 08:11 PM
This could be very interesting to see what becomes of this with Bowdens reputation and all.

registerthis
08-07-2006, 08:11 PM
Didn't Bowden get screwed in a deal with the Padres for Bryan Lawrence over the off-season in a similar way? I don't believe anything was done about that deal. Bowden did not get an MRI because it cost too much?

And that's why nothing was ever done about it. The Nats had an opportunity to detect the extent of Lawrence's injury, and elected not to. Their loss. The Reds may or may not be in a similar situation here.

RedsManRick
08-07-2006, 08:12 PM
Here's some history:

July 22, 2003: Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Mike Gonzalez and Scott Sauerbeck.

July 31, 2003: Brandon Lyon, Anastacio Martinez, and Jeff Suppan traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Boston Red Sox for Mike Gonzalez, Freddy Sanchez, and cash.

Lyon had a frayed elbow ligament so the Pirates protested. The Sox conceded by redoing the trade resulting in a final trade of Suppan and Sauerbeck for Sanchez and $$, meaning the real winner was Pittsburgh since they got to keep Mike Gonzalez....

registerthis
08-07-2006, 08:12 PM
Stop speculating. It's simply foolish.

But if we did that, the traffic on this board would drop by about 75%. :)

Matt700wlw
08-07-2006, 08:12 PM
This could be very interesting to see what becomes of this with Bowdens reputation and all.

What's left of it...

Falls City Beer
08-07-2006, 08:12 PM
It wouldn't be that hard to prove if Majwesky is the one giving the Reds the info about the treatment he was given before the AS break.

No, but proving deliberate obfuscation on the part of Bowden would be.

KittyDuran
08-07-2006, 08:14 PM
Here I have a parallel story on getting screwed by Bowden.

There once was a guy who was out walking in the woods one day, and found a severely injured snake. So the guy took it, took care of it, and nursed it back to health over the course of several weeks. One day, when the man least expected it, the snake bit the man. As the man lied dying from the venom he asked the snake, "I saved your life, cared for you, and you did this...? Why?" The snake responded, "You knew I was a snake when you took me in."
The Snake
Johnny Rivers

On her way to work one morning
Down a path alongside the lake
A tender-hearted woman
Saw a poor half-frozen snake
His pretty coloured skin had been
All frosted with the dew
"Oh faith" she cried. "I'll take you in
And I'll take care of you."

"Take me in, tender woman.
Take me in, for Heaven's sake.
Take me in, tender woman,"
Sighed the snake

Now she wrapped him up all cosy
In a comforter of silk
And then laid him by the fireside
With some honey and some milk
She hurried home from work that night
As soon as she arrived
She found that pretty snake she'd
Taken in had been revived

"Take me in, tender woman.
Take me in, for Heaven's sake.
Take me in, tender woman."
Sighed the snake

She clutched him to her bosom
"You're so beautiful," she cried
"But if I hadn't brought you in
By now you might have died."
Well she stroked his pretty skin again
And then kissed and held him tight
But, instead of saying "Thanks"
The snake gave her a vicious bite

"Take me in, tender woman.
Take me in, for Heaven's sake.
Take me in, tender woman."
Sighed the snake

"I saved you," cried that woman
"And you've bitten me, but why?
You know your bite is poisonous
And now I'm gonna die!"
"Hah, shut up, silly woman,"
Said that reptile, with a grin
"You knew darned well I was a snake,
Before you took me in."

"Aw, take me in, tender woman.
Take me in, for Heaven's sake.
Take me in, tender woman."
Sighed the snake
Sighed the snake
Sighed the snake
"Aw, you better take me in, tender woman,"
Sighed the snake

registerthis
08-07-2006, 08:14 PM
No, but proving deliberate obfuscation on the part of Bowden would be.

Neither Bowden nor MLB would let it get to that point, either. Likely, as Joseph mentioned, if this allegation has any teeth, the Nats will toss the Reds an additional prospect and all will be settled.

KronoRed
08-07-2006, 08:14 PM
Is it normal for teams not to check this sort of stuff out before a trade?

Reds4Life
08-07-2006, 08:15 PM
My guess is it went down something like this:

Reds get GM checked out because of his recent suckatude.
Doc recommends that GM get a cortisone shot
GM tells doc he can't because just got one in the problem area about a month ago.
Doc tells Krivsky about said previous treatment
Krivsky goes nuts, realizing he just got jobbed by leatherpants.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2006, 08:38 PM
Kremcheck and Krivsky just called a media conference in the 2nd inning of the ballgame.

I'm sure when the details are available (for whatever it is), it will be told.

Redsfan08
08-07-2006, 08:48 PM
Id take Kearns back

2001MUgrad
08-07-2006, 08:51 PM
Very interesting. Has been having problems all year and has taken at least 1 cort. shot prior to coming to the Reds. I may have to keep watching/listening to this game just to see what the press confrence is about that they called at the top of the second. Whatever kind of press conf. it was it caused Jon Fay to leave Marty and the Radio broadcast after about 3 batters.

Redsfan08
08-07-2006, 09:00 PM
I hope we can get one of the players back Kearns:)

Wheelhouse
08-07-2006, 09:01 PM
Guys I really would not expect to get Kearns, FeLo, or even Ryan Wagner back. Likewise I would not expect Majewski to return to Washington. What will most probably happen [if anything] is some middle of the road AA pitcher will be offered up as a peace offering of sorts.

Kearns isn't coming back.

FeLo isn't coming back.

Stop speculating. It's simply foolish.

We've got a series with the Cards, lets worry about the players on the field not the GM and players who aren't here now.

Oh, so we don't get distracted? Ha! You're speaking as if it upon us to actually play the Cardinals ourselves. Bowden is known to 1) be morally dubious and 2) harbor a desire to stick it to the Reds. I don't think Krivsky would waste his time, if there wasn't something to it. And speculation is perfectly valid in this very interesting situation that has developed in a transaction. Sit back and read the thread (or not) and you may learn something about the process of how players are traded, and what teams are obliged to disclose. Have a little fun!

Redsfan08
08-07-2006, 09:04 PM
Guys I really would not expect to get Kearns, FeLo, or even Ryan Wagner back. Likewise I would not expect Majewski to return to Washington. What will most probably happen [if anything] is some middle of the road AA pitcher will be offered up as a peace offering of sorts.

Kearns isn't coming back.

FeLo isn't coming back.

Stop speculating. It's simply foolish.

We've got a series with the Cards, lets worry about the players on the field not the GM and players who aren't here now.

well the game is over the reds season is over so lets satrt talking about the GMs and players

Reds4Life
08-07-2006, 09:07 PM
well the game is over the reds season is over so lets satrt talking about the GMs and players

The season is over? I guess I didn't get the memo.

Gizmo
08-07-2006, 09:08 PM
The season is over? I guess I didn't get the memo.


Me either, in fact, I'm not even sure the game is over, unless there's serious delay on my FSN.

Wheelhouse
08-07-2006, 09:08 PM
Not impossible, but very difficult. To be sure, the odds are against the Reds on this one. Which is why, as others have noted, it wouldn't be completely surprising to see a closed-door agreement worked out on this.

And if RCast really wanted to pursue it, it could become a legal issue, especially when you consider the money involved with baseball transactions. It will never come to that, however.

Actually easy to prove.

Krivsky: Gary, were you injured before coming over here?

Majewski: Yes.

Krivsky: Did you notify the Nationals medical staff?

Majewski: Yes.

Proven.

StillFunkyB
08-07-2006, 09:13 PM
Actually easy to prove.

Krivsky: Gary, were you injured before coming over here?

Majewski: Yes.

Krivsky: Did you notify the Nationals medical staff?

Majewski: Yes.

Proven.

I hope you are right, but I have a feeling that it might be a little more complicated than that.

jt4prez
08-07-2006, 09:15 PM
I'm not sure how credible these rumors are, but I'll post them anyway.

An usher at tonights ballgame told my grandparents that Majewski in addition to having arm problems is also on steiroids. The usher also told my grandparents that Bray is having surgery on his arm as well(I'm not so sure on this one). How credible these rumors are, I dont know because they did come from an usher, so take them for what their worth.

My grandparents said to turn on 700 WLW because they are supposed to make an announcement of some sort shortly.

MartyFan
08-07-2006, 09:21 PM
I'm not sure how credible these rumors are, but I'll post them anyway.

An usher at tonights ballgame told my grandparents that Majewski in addition to having arm problems is also on steiroids. The usher also told my grandparents that Bray is having surgery on his arm as well(I'm not so sure on this one). How credible these rumors are, I dont know because they did come from an usher, so take them for what their worth.

My grandparents said to turn on 700 WLW because they are supposed to make an announcement of some sort shortly.

WOW...who was it that shot JFK?

Maybe the Yoda like usher can clear that up too?

David Cubbedge
08-07-2006, 09:25 PM
prior to the game Narron did say that Bray was unavailable. There could be something to this.

savafan
08-07-2006, 09:31 PM
This is all very bizarre. I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.

CougarQuest
08-07-2006, 09:33 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AoiiVUbPleKPSsEXj8SriEsRvLYF?slug=ap-reds-franklin&prov=ap&type=lgns

By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer

CINCINNATI (AP) -- An injury to right-hander Gary Majewski spurred the Cincinnati Reds to make another move for their bullpen Monday, acquiring right-hander Ryan Franklin from the Philadelphia Phillies.

The Reds received money to pay part of Franklin's $2.6 million deal for this season. They'll give the Phillies a player to be named after the season.

The move came after Majewski -- one of the keys in an eight-player deal with Washington on July 13 -- told the team that he's been bothered by a sore shoulder. Majewski was placed on the 15-day disabled list.

In a busy day of player moves, the Reds also put right-handed reliever Jason Standridge on the 15-day disabled list with back spasms and activated left-hander Kent Mercker, who had been sidelined by a sore elbow.

And, left-handed starter Brandon Claussen returned from a failed rehabilitation stint in the minors, saying he expects to have season-ending surgery on his pitching shoulder.


The most intriguing news involved Majewski, who was obtained along with left-hander Bill Bray and shortstop Royce Clayton as part of a package that included outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez.

Bray has been solid and Clayton has helped the Reds stay in contention in the NL Central with his dependable fielding. Majewski has struggled since he arrived in Cincinnati, going 1-2 with a 12.54 ERA in 11 games.

Majewski pitched in the World Baseball Classic in March, replacing Mets closer Billy Wagner on the U.S. roster. He said Monday that he has taken anti-inflammatory drugs since early in the season and received a cortisone shot before the All-Star break.

"It's been bothering me for a while, after the World Baseball Classic," Majewski said Monday. "I tried to fire it up too quick."

General manager Wayne Krivsky said that Majewski didn't tell the team that his shoulder was bothering him all along.

"That's the first I've heard about it," Krivsky said.

Asked if the Nationals told him about the cortisone shot and the anti-inflammatory drugs Majewski was taking before the trade, Krivsky said, "I'm not going to comment on any of that stuff."

The Reds were waiting for the results of a medical test to determine the extent of Majewski's shoulder problems, which prompted them to make their fourth bullpen-centered trade in the last four weeks.

Franklin, 33, was 1-5 with Philadelphia with a 4.58 ERA in 46 relief appearances. He signed a one-year deal with the Phillies before the season, expecting to be in the rotation. Instead, manager Charlie Manuel decided to use him out of the bullpen. Franklin never got comfortable there, and was designated for assignment on July 30.

The Reds plan to use him as a long reliever.

"They've been straight with me," Franklin said. "They told me I'll be in the 'pen and if something comes up and they need a starter, I can fall into that role, too."

Also Monday, the Reds sent right-hander Matt Belisle to Triple-A Louisville on a rehabilitation stint. Belisle has been on the disabled list twice this season because of a sore lower back.

WLW announced that it was official for Claussen's surgery

mbgrayson
08-07-2006, 09:34 PM
Will they take Royce back too? ;)

SeeinRed
08-07-2006, 09:39 PM
prior to the game Narron did say that Bray was unavailable. There could be something to this.

Probably because he pitched in the last two games, not because of injury.

David Cubbedge
08-07-2006, 09:40 PM
Probably because he pitched in the last two games, not because of injury.

I was talking about the usher's comments on both Bray and Majewski being mentioned as using steroids.

SeeinRed
08-07-2006, 09:50 PM
I was talking about the usher's comments on both Bray and Majewski being mentioned as using steroids.

Either way, its just because he has been used in the last two games. BTW, I don't recall anybody saying Bray used steroids. The only one the usher mentioned was Majewski.


An usher at tonights ballgame told my grandparents that Majewski in addition to having arm problems is also on steiroids. The usher also told my grandparents that Bray is having surgery on his arm as well(I'm not so sure on this one). How credible these rumors are, I dont know because they did come from an usher, so take them for what their worth.

GriffeyFan
08-07-2006, 09:54 PM
I'm sorry but how in the world would an usher know this?

I know you're just the messenger, so please don't feel like I'm after you.

What's next? Does the hot dog guy know why Milton isn't good anymore (or was he ever?)?

David Cubbedge
08-07-2006, 09:55 PM
Either way, its just because he has been used in the last two games. BTW, I don't recall anybody saying Bray used steroids. The only one the usher mentioned was Majewski.

You are right, I read it wrong and for that I apologize for the confusion on my part.

MartyFan
08-07-2006, 09:57 PM
I'm sorry but how in the world would an usher know this?

I know you're just the messenger, so please don't feel like I'm after you.

What's next? Does the hot dog guy know why Milton isn't good anymore (or was he ever?)?

Pretty much my thoughts as well when I first posted this...of course more absurd things have been said by more ironic sources and turned out to be true.

corkedbat
08-07-2006, 09:57 PM
I'd take Lopez back, if for mo other reason then the Nats would need a SS, so we could be big about it and send Clayton back.

redbuck
08-07-2006, 09:58 PM
There is probably no way we will be fortunate enough to "return" Majewski to the Nats... but one can hope.

If we can somehow get rid of him and Clayton, and keep Bray, even better.

Redsfan08
08-07-2006, 09:59 PM
The season is over? I guess I didn't get the memo.

:doh: I am smiling:thumbdown

David Cubbedge
08-07-2006, 10:01 PM
If Kearns and Felo came back, wouldn't they be a little regressed from being previously traded players and feeling like the organization did not want them?

For that reason alone, I am not sure that this could happen. Not to mention the fact that contracts are likely finished and a deal being a deal.

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Maybe the Usher said Bray but meant Claussen!

Rob Dicken
08-07-2006, 10:07 PM
It was mentioned in ESPN magazine that Bray was a good pick-up....but Majewski's arm was 'tired and sore.'

I do believe we got hustled. :(

Always Red
08-07-2006, 10:10 PM
I'm not sure what's going to come out of all of this (probably nothing, but I hope we can undo part of this trade- keeping Bray:) ), but I've got to say, in this day in age, with technology as advanced as it is, and when you're dealing with the amounts of money that is going back and forth over these players, I simply cannot understand why any GM would trade for any pitcher, without having a $1000 MRI done on their pitching shoulder and elbow.

It would remove any shadow of doubt, on both sides.

CougarQuest
08-07-2006, 10:12 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060807&content_id=1597799&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

From the Reds website

CINCINNATI -- Reds reliever Gary Majewski's lack of effectiveness had been a mystery since he was acquired last month.
The club now knows the reason. Yet, the answer has created more questions.

On Monday, Majewski was placed on the 15-day disabled list with what originally was termed right shoulder inflammation. An MRI taken on the right-hander showed he had a "tired shoulder."

It wasn't known how long Majewski would be out, but the information was a sigh of relief for Cincinnati.

"He needs rest," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "He needs some strengthening. There's nothing structurally wrong. He doesn't need surgery."

Majewski, who owns a 12.53 ERA in his 11 games with the Reds, revealed Monday he's had trouble with his shoulder long before joining the team.

"It's been bothering me for a while," said Majewski, who is 4-4 with a 4.87 ERA in 57 games this season. "After the World Baseball Classic, I tried to fire it up too quick."

But that wasn't all.

"I've been on anti-inflammatory [medication] most of the year," Majewski added. "Right before the break, I had a cortisone shot. I was feeling good the past couple of weeks, but the past week, when it started wearing off, it wasn't allowing me to be out in front. A lot of my pitches were right down the middle."

The 26-year-old Majewski was part of an eight-player trade with the Nationals on July 13 that also brought reliever Bill Bray and shortstop Royce Clayton in exchange for Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez and Ryan Wagner.

What did the Reds know about Majewski's arm, and when did they know it? What did the Nationals know?

Krivsky would not address the issue. It was known that team medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek did not examine the pitcher before the deal was made.

"I'm not going to talk about anything that was done before the trade [or] what was said, what wasn't said, what was exchanged," Krivsky said. "The bottom line is he has a tired shoulder."

However, if it was learned that the Nationals were aware of an injury before they made the deal, the Reds could potentially cite "damaged goods" and file a grievance with the league.

Majewski, who gave up four eighth-inning runs and lost a two-run lead in a 6-4 setback to the Braves on Sunday, did not tell anyone with the Reds about his situation until Monday. And that was on a suggestion from his fiancée as he drove her to the airport on Sunday night.

"She told me to say something," Majewski said. "I said something first thing when I came in [Monday] morning. There are certain things you can pitch through and certain things you can't. I just thought 'tendinitis, pitch through it and hopefully it will go away.' The last week, after every game, it was getting worse and worse. When I pitched, my arm felt fine, but when I was done and cooled down, it would tighten up real fast."

Majewski had been considered a durable and repeatable bullpen arm since he broke into the Major Leagues in 2004. His 65 innings pitched that season was tied for most among National League relievers. He worked 86 innings for the Nationals last season and 2 2/3 innings for Team USA in the World Baseball Classic in March.

With Cincinnati, Majewski was charged with at least one run in seven of his 11 games. He retired the first batter he faced in only three of his 11 appearances, a telling statistic for a struggling reliever.

"He had everything that shows that he's got fatigue," Kremchek said of the MRI. "He's a young kid. He's thrown a lot. He needs some time to get it better. So, we're going to get it better over the next few weeks."

MaineRed
08-07-2006, 10:17 PM
Sounds like the Reds are happy with the Maj man and are just going to ride it out.

Just think what the addition of the real Gary Majewski could mean later on if the Reds can hang in there.

Wayne has fixed the pen up nice. Now we just need everyone healthy.

fearofpopvol1
08-07-2006, 10:29 PM
Jon Rauch please. If you compare numbers, that seems like the fair swap (if deemed so). That or Cordero.

Not to rain on the suprisingly positive parade for most of this thread, but I really worry that the Reds are screwed since they didn't have a physical performed or an MRI or anything. It seems like regardless of what Washington may or may not have concealed, the Reds took no precautions to ensure the health of Majewski. Obviously, if the Nats tried to hide it, that does make the situation worse and does bode well, but I can't see the Reds being able to cite "damaged goods" when they didn't do what they were supposed to.

I'm guessing, as some others have suggested, that they get a prospect behind the scenes and that's it. I hope they get what is deserved, but they just don't have much on their side.

It's really unfortunate either way.

deltachi8
08-07-2006, 10:36 PM
Take Clayton back and its even.

I highly doubt anything will come of this other than the Reds not dealing with Bowden ever again.

johngalt
08-07-2006, 10:37 PM
How is it that the Reds declined to have Kremchek examine Majewski prior to the trade? Are you kidding me?

It was a popular belief around the league that Majewski was possibly being overworked, and that he had put a lot of mileage on his arm the last year and a half. So how can you trade for a guy like that without having your doctor check him out? That's just insane.

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 10:41 PM
Maj has "fatigued shoulder". MRI shows nothing out of the ordinary. Sent to DL to rest.

Per Doc Holliwood via Marty B.

CougarQuest
08-07-2006, 10:43 PM
IMHO:
I don't think Majewsky is going back (and I don't think that Kearns nor Lopez would be coming back). I think that Krivsky likes Majewsky for next year and is "relieved" to find out that there is not structial damage to his shoulder. I do think that a grievance will be filed though. That in turn could garner the Reds a minor leaguer

Ltlabner
08-07-2006, 10:44 PM
Knowing Doc K's slight tendency to be overly optimistic, this may mean that Maj is currently in the ICU at Christ Hospital.

Always Red
08-07-2006, 10:46 PM
Knowing Doc K's slight tendency to be overly optimistic, this may mean that Maj is currently in the ICU at Christ Hospital.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

letsgojunior
08-07-2006, 10:47 PM
Should anyone in the organization be surprised that this happened in a transaction with Bowden?

Fool me once, shame on you...

I have no idea what filing a grievance with the league will accomplish, but it certainly won't result in Kearns's return IMO. I imagining damages or a sanction on Bowden will be the most likely recourse.

We all know Bowden has issues with telling the truth, but shame on the Reds for completely neglecting to do their homework in a high-profile trade. And, just an outsiders' perspective, but it seems like a huge conflict-of-interest for Kremcheck to be both team physician for the Reds and a medical consultant for the Nationals.

But just a huge gaffe by the Reds. Anyone dealing with Bowden should go into negotiations under the premise they're getting screwed over, and should do their homework. What seemed like a poor trade on paper now looks completely abysmal. Stunning that the Reds didn't get an MRI.

CougarQuest
08-07-2006, 10:51 PM
How is it that the Reds declined to have Kremchek examine Majewski prior to the trade? Are you kidding me?

It was a popular belief around the league that Majewski was possibly being overworked, and that he had put a lot of mileage on his arm the last year and a half. So how can you trade for a guy like that without having your doctor check him out? That's just insane.
I'm thinking the same thing. So I guess we should assume the same medical examination standards were applied to Everday Eddie?

fearofpopvol1
08-07-2006, 11:00 PM
And, just an outsiders' perspective, but it seems like a huge conflict-of-interest for Kremcheck to be both team physician for the Reds and a medical consultant for the Nationals.

Great point.

Always Red
08-07-2006, 11:01 PM
...We all know Bowden has issues with telling the truth...

You are being very kind, letsgojunior; simply put, Jim Bowden is a liar. Has been for years and years.

This may not change anything as pertains to the trade specifically, but in all probability, will cause leatherpants his job, since no one else will trust him again, or want to trade with the Nationals.

Nor should they.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2006, 11:12 PM
You are being very kind, letsgojunior; simply put, Jim Bowden is a liar. Has been for years and years.

And yet our GM made a huge trade with him, giving away much for very little.

Now, that "very little" somehow looks smaller.

VWRED
08-07-2006, 11:14 PM
Bullpen SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENOUGH SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TeamBoone
08-07-2006, 11:21 PM
Cortisone is a steroid... though one shot for a legitimate medical condition does not a user make. That's probably where the user got that one from.

And he also probably got Claussen and Bray mixed up on the shoulder surgery bit.

That's why gossip is gossip folks... the more mouths it travels through, the more unreliable it usually gets.

TeamBoone
08-07-2006, 11:23 PM
How is it that the Reds declined to have Kremchek examine Majewski prior to the trade? Are you kidding me?

It was a popular belief around the league that Majewski was possibly being overworked, and that he had put a lot of mileage on his arm the last year and a half. So how can you trade for a guy like that without having your doctor check him out? That's just insane.

I'm sure he was examined, though I doubt anyone predicted he should have an MRI.

EDIT: I take it back; someone posted that he wasn't and I didn't see it before I wrote this.

MaineRed
08-07-2006, 11:26 PM
IMHO:
I don't think Majewsky is going back (and I don't think that Kearns nor Lopez would be coming back). I think that Krivsky likes Majewsky for next year and is "relieved" to find out that there is not structial damage to his shoulder. I do think that a grievance will be filed though. That in turn could garner the Reds a minor leaguer

Think you nailed it.

WMR
08-07-2006, 11:41 PM
I can't believe you'd complete any "big" trade for a pitcher without having them undergo an MRI. Dumb de-dumb-dumb-dumbbbbbbbb.

mark10567
08-08-2006, 12:11 AM
looks like ol Jimmy boy is trying to pull a fast one.

11larkin11
08-08-2006, 12:14 AM
I read the first page, and this one, but dont have the time to look through 2-6. Sorry if it has been asked, but would the Reds have to get Kearns, Lopez or Wagner back, or can they get someone not involved in the trade.

vic715
08-08-2006, 12:15 AM
If this is true and I stated so on another thread yesterday that Bowden traded us damaged goods and knew it, how since GM was the key player in the trade can we just get a minor leaguer for compinsation.There is probably no real recourse as far as Washinton being liable but I would hope Stan Kasem would do the honorable thing here and redo the trade.Then If I'm him and found out that Jimbo did this knowingly then he's out the door.

The Baumer
08-08-2006, 12:30 AM
So is this "theory" real, or speculation? I don't like getting caught up in fantasy land trade talks, and I haven't found any solid links that go beyond opinion. Anyone know the valid story?

CougarQuest
08-08-2006, 01:13 AM
So is this "theory" real, or speculation? I don't like getting caught up in fantasy land trade talks, and I haven't found any solid links that go beyond opinion. Anyone know the valid story?

I'm not sure what theory you are talking about.

According to news reports: "if the Nationals were aware of an injury before they made the deal, the Reds could potentially cite "damaged goods" and file a grievance with the league."

And if that were to happen, then history would indicate that the trade could be revisted.

gilpdawg
08-08-2006, 01:17 AM
Nobody takes cortisone shots every day, it's not common that a guy would have more then a few a year, and that's usually under extreme circumstances.
If you took a cortizone shot every day, you'd be messed up.

cincrazy
08-08-2006, 01:22 AM
I feel sorry for Majewski in a way. Frank Robinson drove that guy's right arm right into the ground. It was common knowledge by both the Reds and Nats at the time of the deal that Majewski was WAY overworked, so I can't see MLB stepping in here and doing anything. It would be nice, but I knew when we traded for Maj. that he had a ton of mileage on that right arm the last few years.

The Baumer
08-08-2006, 01:29 AM
I'm not sure what theory you are talking about.

According to news reports: "if the Nationals were aware of an injury before they made the deal, the Reds could potentially cite "damaged goods" and file a grievance with the league."

And if that were to happen, then history would indicate that the trade could be revisted.

Alright you answered my question, thanks. It's a situation that can potentially occur, but no one from the Reds or Nationals has confirmed it or commented.

George Foster
08-08-2006, 01:37 AM
I think K will file a complaint just to save face with Reds fans. He could say,"hey...I didn't know he was hurt or I would not have made the trade."

GOREDSGO32
08-08-2006, 02:04 AM
Rumor is because of this backhanded deal, Soriano is on the way, and the Nats have to pay the entirity of his contract along with $2 million compensation extra ;)

vic715
08-08-2006, 02:06 AM
If you took a cortizone shot every day, you'd be messed up.
Thats the main reason Sandy Kofax retired at the age of thirty.He didn't want to be shot up anymore.

redsrule2500
08-08-2006, 02:29 AM
I'm really wondering what's going to happen with this. One of the more interesting things of the day.

dsmith421
08-08-2006, 03:49 AM
I'm really wondering what's going to happen with this. One of the more interesting things of the day.

Quite frankly, I don't think Reds fans should get too excited about this. The bottom line is that Krivsky didn't do his job here. Kremchek, for God's sake, works for both the Reds and Nats: getting an MRI for these guys or, perhaps, asking them if they had any current injury concerns (i.e., were getting cortisone shots on a regular basis) would have revealed this information.

I think Reds fans should be hopping mad at one man and it's not Jim Bowden. Krivsky's failure to perform due diligence may have seriously damaged the organization present and future. To me, that kind of gross negligence is a no-doubter firing offense.

KalDanielsfan
08-08-2006, 03:56 AM
Quite frankly, I don't think Reds fans should get too excited about this. The bottom line is that Krivsky didn't do his job here. Kremchek, for God's sake, works for both the Reds and Nats: getting an MRI for these guys or, perhaps, asking them if they had any current injury concerns (i.e., were getting cortisone shots on a regular basis) would have revealed this information.

I think Reds fans should be hopping mad at one man and it's not Jim Bowden. Krivsky's failure to perform due diligence may have seriously damaged the organization present and future. To me, that kind of gross negligence is a no-doubter firing offense.

i would give u reptuation points for this post..unfortunately I dont have that function yet...so how about a :beerme: and an "AGREED" comment :)

jimbo
08-08-2006, 04:16 AM
Quite frankly, I don't think Reds fans should get too excited about this. The bottom line is that Krivsky didn't do his job here. Kremchek, for God's sake, works for both the Reds and Nats: getting an MRI for these guys or, perhaps, asking them if they had any current injury concerns (i.e., were getting cortisone shots on a regular basis) would have revealed this information.

I think Reds fans should be hopping mad at one man and it's not Jim Bowden. Krivsky's failure to perform due diligence may have seriously damaged the organization present and future. To me, that kind of gross negligence is a no-doubter firing offense.

Is obtaining or asking for MRI's from prospective trade prospects a common practice? Is it even legal within baseball's tampering rules to call up prospective trade prospects employed by other organizations and ask them about current injury concerns?

Before we start accusing Krivsky of such and demanding his firing, maybe we should find out what is considered within the rules or is common practice.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 08:55 AM
Is obtaining or asking for MRI's from prospective trade prospects a common practice? Is it even legal within baseball's tampering rules to call up prospective trade prospects employed by other organizations and ask them about current injury concerns?

Before we start accusing Krivsky of such and demanding his firing, maybe we should find out what is considered within the rules or is common practice.

Geez Jimbo, you want to find out the facts before heading down to GABP with torch carrying mob in tow? Nahhhh...it's much more fun to speculate, froth at the mouth and spout off.

Always Red
08-08-2006, 09:47 AM
Is it just me, or does Gary Majewski look an awful lot like John Wilkes Booth, the man who assassinated Abraham Lincoln??

I don't know how to post pics, but page 5 of today's Enquirer has a pic of Majewski that looks just like Booth.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 10:00 AM
Like Joseph said, we might get a peace offering of some AA prospect, but that's it.

It's going to be very difficult to prove that Bowden is hiding anything, because on the day of the trade, I found it reported in the press that Majewski has been on the DL for tendonitis and has been complaining about pain, even coming off the DL.

If I can find that info searching the net in 10 minutes, then it's safe to assume that Wayne knew that Maj had at least some injury problem risk. It's a lot like Guardado. Wayne knew the guy had injury issues, but rolled the dice and picked him up anyway.

I just don't want to get anyone's hope up. It's not likely we'll get a Major League player that will help us this year.

redsmetz
08-08-2006, 10:05 AM
Is it just me, or does Gary Majewski look an awful lot like John Wilkes Booth, the man who assassinated Abraham Lincoln??

I don't know how to post pics, but page 5 of today's Enquirer has a pic of Majewski that looks just like Booth.

It's not J.W. Booth

I'd lean towards Buffalo Bill Cody:

http://www.nps.gov/foth/jwbpic1.jpg

Unfortunately, the Enquirer photo won't give me a good link to post the picture.



http://www.johnmacsusa.com/images/codydevils/codydevils6.jpg

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 10:08 AM
How is it that the Reds declined to have Kremchek examine Majewski prior to the trade? Are you kidding me?

It was a popular belief around the league that Majewski was possibly being overworked, and that he had put a lot of mileage on his arm the last year and a half. So how can you trade for a guy like that without having your doctor check him out? That's just insane.

Tell me about it. The guy already was put on the DL for tendonitis. Then was rode hard when he came back.

There's no way the Reds are going to make a "damaged goods" claim stick if Doc Hollywood just diagnosed it as "tired shoulder, no structural damage".
And frankly, if that's all that's wrong with Maj, then I think a lot of people were wrong about Bowden on this one. It was obvious that Maj was an injury risk.. Geez, he was already on the DL once this year.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 10:12 AM
This may not change anything as pertains to the trade specifically, but in all probability, will cause leatherpants his job, since no one else will trust him again, or want to trade with the Nationals.
.

Nope, Bowden scammed the Cards worse with the Brantley trade, and everyone other than Jocketty kept trading with them.

Really, if the Reds file a grievance, they are going to look like whiners. Maj is tired. That should be expected, considering how hard he was ridden this year. If the Reds did any research, they would've found out he was complaining of soreness this season. If I can find it on the net, why didn't they know about it?

I think a lot of people are trying to use this as an excuse for a poor trade by Wayne.

OesterPoster
08-08-2006, 10:13 AM
I'm not sure why everyone says Majewski was on the DL this year. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see his name in any transactions for the Nationals this year. I'm fairly certain he took a few days off, then came back strong after the rest.

Here are the quotes from Krivsky and JimBo:

Before learning the results of Majewski's MRI exam, Reds General Manager Wayne Krivsky indicated the Reds were exploring their options for recourse, in case it could be proven the Nationals had hidden Majewski's injury.

"We're going to look at the MRI, then go through the proper channels and use the proper protocol," he told reporters. Asked whether the Reds had checked out Majewski's health before the trade, Krivsky said the team's medical staff had exchanged information with their Nationals' counterparts.

However, after learning the results of the MRI exam, Krivsky backed down. "I'm not going to talk about anything that was done before the trade, what was said, what wasn't said, what was exchanged, and all that," he said.

Informed of the comments by Majewski and Krivsky, Nationals GM Jim Bowden, in an e-mail, said, "In every trade we make, our medical and training staff are always thorough, complete and give full disclosure on information on any player involved in the transaction as requested by the other club involved in the transaction per major league rules."

redsmetz
08-08-2006, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure that a medical exam is standard in regards to trades. I think it is done with a player known to have had an injury or its fairly standard with free agent signings, but I don't think it is on trades without some history.

Now I think the Reds like Majewski a lot and want to keep him. That said, I hope they don't dismiss the grievance route because if the Nats traded him knowing of the injury, they need to receive some type of punishment (and I have no idea what would be appropriate).

As a side note, it will be interesting after this season is over to exam the health of players who played in the Baseball World Cup Series. Maj isn't the only pitcher to have had problems.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure why everyone says Majewski was on the DL this year.

There were a couple other blubs, but here's one:

Gary Majewski: Bothered by Shoulder Tendinitis


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...wire&type=lgns

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Monday, May 8, 2006
Update: Majewski has been diagnosed with a mild case of tendinitis in his shoulder, the Washington Post reports.

OesterPoster
08-08-2006, 10:21 AM
That's correct, but he was never on the DL. I'd say there's a huge difference. Had he been on the DL, he'd most probably have a more thorough medical record of his injury. By just shutting it down for a few games, the medical records are a bit more vague.

I think this is a total non-issue. Maybe the Reds file a grievance, but I'm in the corner with other posters who say nothing will come out of this.

Reliever Gary Majewski has missed the last three games because of rotator cuff tendinitis. Majewski said he has had the problem off and on for much of this season and that might explain why he hasn't pitched very well.

Majewski said he rushed too quickly to get back on the mound after returning from the World Baseball Classic.

"I came back from the [Classic] and fired it up pretty quick," Majewski said. "The first week of the season, I got into games quite a bit and I tried to go too hard, too quick."

Robinson said Majewski was available to pitch on Sunday against the Pirates.

smith288
08-08-2006, 10:22 AM
Informed of the comments by Majewski and Krivsky, Nationals GM Jim Bowden, in an e-mail, said, "In every trade we make, our medical and training staff are always thorough, complete and give full disclosure on information on any player involved in the transaction as requested by the other club involved in the transaction per major league rules."

Sounds alot like lawyer speak. Wily one, that Jim Bowden.

OldXOhio
08-08-2006, 10:42 AM
If I can find that info searching the net in 10 minutes, then it's safe to assume that Wayne knew that Maj had at least some injury problem risk. It's a lot like Guardado. Wayne knew the guy had injury issues, but rolled the dice and picked him up anyway.



And if true, then Wayne should get all the blame. I could care less what Jimbo promised - there was too much at stake to take a flier. Trading away the likes of Lopez and Kearns for relief pitching is one thing. Trading them on a roll of the dice was mindless, regardless of our position in the WC standings.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 10:48 AM
I really think Wayne now realizes what a horrible mistake the trade was. His initial reaction was that he was going to pursue all channels and file a grievance, but then he clammed up once he saw the MRI (which only indicated a tired shoulder). I'm sure Wayne was probably hoping the MRI would show an injury to bail him out of this embarassment. That's just human nature.

I also think he owes Bowden an apology for leaking those accusations to the press. He should've kept his mouth shut until he got all the information.

Maj has a tired shoulder. Why should this be a surprise.

And OesterPoster, you are right.. I'm sorry, he wasn't on the DL, I remembered that wrong. They let him rest without going on the DL.

membengal
08-08-2006, 11:05 AM
In the Kearns/Lopez deal, Krivsky was the Gimp. Never forget that.

Kc61
08-08-2006, 11:05 AM
Hope Maj is ok for the long term and contributes to the team in September and next year. He has been a good reliever earlier in his career and, without structural damage, probably can return to form.

That said, this Maj injury really brings down my opinion of the job the new FO has done so far. Trade was a risk anyway giving up Kearns and Lopez. Now we find out the main veteran received in the deal is injured and that there was a public indication of his injury earlier in the season. Maj blows game against Braves then goes on DL just as big Cards series starts. Not good.

I was ok with the trade because I remember how important late inning relief has been in previous Reds successful seasons. I remember how important Mike Jackson and Jeff Brantley were in 1995, for example. And Bray looks very good. Still, for the near term, Maj was the key guy, an experienced 8th inning set up man. Very disappointed that he had this injury and is unable to pitch effectively.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:15 AM
In the Kearns/Lopez deal, Krivsky was the Gimp. Never forget that.

Bowden served his dish of revenge against his former club cold. Very cold.

If I didn't hate him so much, I'd almost admire him. But then, for my money, any idiot should have seen Bowden's shenanigans.

Fire Wayne.

registerthis
08-08-2006, 11:23 AM
Bowden served his dish of revenge against his former club cold. Very cold.

This trade hardly had a leg to stand on before this revelation. Now it's even more indefensible.

I'm not calling for Wayne's head on a platter, though--I just hope he's learned his lesson from this mess. When you trade out of a combination of necessity and desperation, the results can be horrendous.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:24 AM
This trade hardly had a leg to stand on before this revelation. Now it's even more indefensible.

I'm not calling for Wayne's head on a platter, though--I just hope he's learned his lesson from this mess. When you trade out of a combination of necessity and desperation, the results can be horrendous.

This is yellow-cake uranium-bad.

Wayne's got to go.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 11:27 AM
Wayne's got to go.

Yawn..... yeah.. let's hire someone else and start from scratch less then 120 games in.

This isn't football, it's baseball and it takes a hell of a lot more then 8 months to build a castle out of nothing... you guys slay me.

deltachi8
08-08-2006, 11:33 AM
Yawn..... yeah.. let's hire someone else and start from scratch less then 120 games in.

This isn't football, it's baseball and it takes a hell of a lot more then 8 months to build a castle out of nothing... you guys slay me.

I am right with you on this. The Reds have been a bad team and organization for years and finally light starts to appear and people want to complain about the shade it shines in.

Now of course people have the right to complian, but lets take it all in here folks, all of it.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 11:34 AM
This is yellow-cake uranium-bad.

Wayne's got to go.


Good greif. You certinally have a flair for the over wraught, over-dramatic don't you? :rolleyes:

How will the Reds ever find another GM that makes no mistakes (at least in your eyes) since if they do they will be fired on the spot?

registerthis
08-08-2006, 11:44 AM
Yawn..... yeah.. let's hire someone else and start from scratch less then 120 games in.

This isn't football, it's baseball and it takes a hell of a lot more then 8 months to build a castle out of nothing... you guys slay me.

FYI, FCB's the only one calling for Wayne to be fired.

I just hope he takes a nice, long look in the mirror. Trades like this can cripple a franchise as much as a Griffey contract.

NJReds
08-08-2006, 11:45 AM
How will the Reds ever find another GM that makes no mistakes

Potential candidate? (Hint, it's not Billy Beane)

http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/m/07808-2.jpg

Every time I try to talk to someone it's "sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy"...

Big Klu
08-08-2006, 11:46 AM
I'm not sure there's a precedent for the commish stepping in and demanding that things be made right.



Here's some history:

July 22, 2003: Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Mike Gonzalez and Scott Sauerbeck.

July 31, 2003: Brandon Lyon, Anastacio Martinez, and Jeff Suppan traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Boston Red Sox for Mike Gonzalez, Freddy Sanchez, and cash.

Lyon had a frayed elbow ligament so the Pirates protested. The Sox conceded by redoing the trade resulting in a final trade of Suppan and Sauerbeck for Sanchez and $$, meaning the real winner was Pittsburgh since they got to keep Mike Gonzalez....

No, the winner was Pittsburgh because they got Freddy Sanchez in the deal!


Here is some more history:
June 15, 1982: In a three-way trade, OF Wayne Nordhagen traded by the Toronto Blue Jays to the Pittsburgh Pirates. OF/1B Bill Robinson traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Philadelphia Phillies. OF Dick Davis traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Toronto Blue Jays.

June 22, 1982: OF Dick Davis traded by the Toronto Blue Jays to the Pittsburgh Pirates for a PTBNL (wait for it.... ;) ).

June 25, 1982: OF Wayne Nordhagen traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Toronto Blue Jays as the PTBNL in the 6/22 Davis trade.


Nordhagen played in only one game for the Pirates before it was determined that he had a pre-existing back injury. The Blue Jays eventually took him back in exchange for Davis, thereby effectively negating Toronto's involvement the deal, and making it a one-for-one trade between the Pirates and the Phillies.

redsrule2500
08-08-2006, 11:50 AM
Good greif. You certinally have a flair for the over wraught, over-dramatic don't you? :rolleyes:

How will the Reds ever find another GM that makes no mistakes (at least in your eyes) since if they do they will be fired on the spot?

He did trade away two of our long-term hometown type guys. It is pretty big.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 11:52 AM
Trades like this can cripple a franchise as much as a Griffey contract.

So can developing hitting over pitching year after year after year..... oh wait.... that already happened!!

Gee, wonder who did that?

Oh yeah the guy that worked here for 10 years, fired the legend in his first year and finished 16 games under .500 a year after finishing 18 games over .500

Too bad they didn't fire him back then.

registerthis
08-08-2006, 11:54 AM
So can developing hitting over pitching year after year after year..... oh wait.... that already happened!!

If you are looking for me to concede that there's more than one way to cripple a franchise, I'll gladly do that.

It doesn't excuse Krivsky's performance with this trade.

Big Klu
08-08-2006, 11:55 AM
Yawn..... yeah.. let's hire someone else and start from scratch less then 120 games in.

This isn't football, it's baseball and it takes a hell of a lot more then 8 months to build a castle out of nothing... you guys slay me.

Yeah, and while we are at it, we also need to get rid of Castellini, because as the top man, it is all ultimately his fault, too. :rolleyes:

Fire Narron!
Fire Krivsky!
Oust Castellini!

(I hope I didn't forget anyone!)

westofyou
08-08-2006, 11:57 AM
It doesn't excuse Krivsky's performance with this trade.

Frankly all you guys willing to judge a trade after a month would never concede crap if it turns the other way, so I won't hold my breath.

Quick to judge, quick to slam and slow to think that the game is bigger then what we all see with our eyes.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 11:59 AM
Yea, we need a change in this orginaization. We've been under Cast and Kriv far too long and look what it's got us! We need a shake up. Someone to come in and do things differently than Schott/Linder/Bowden/Allen/OBrian. This originazation has done nothing to improve upon the horrible teams we had since the turn of the century and it's time we quit putting up with this ownership group and FO. I mean once Mike Brown stepped down and Marvin came to town, they went to the playoffs the very next year. Why shouldn't the Reds be able to do the same?

Always Red
08-08-2006, 12:02 PM
Yea, we need a change in this orginaization. We've been under Cast and Kriv far too long and look what it's got us! We need a shake up. Someone to come in and do things differently than Schott/Linder/Bowden/Allen/OBrian. This originazation has done nothing to improve upon the horrible teams we had since the turn of the century and it's time we quit putting up with this ownership group and FO. I mean once Mike Brown stepped down and Marvin came to town, they went to the playoffs the very next year. Why shouldn't the Reds be able to do the same?
My sarcasm detector alarms are going off!;)

registerthis
08-08-2006, 12:07 PM
Frankly all you guys willing to judge a trade after a month would never concede crap if it turns the other way, so I won't hold my breath.

You're right, my stubborness knows no bounds, and I've never conceded anything nor changed my opinion on any matter. You've got me pegged.

But enough with that nonsense, my actual position is that the number of things that would have to go right--and wrong--for this trade to even work out as a "wash" for the Reds is significant, and I don't have faith in it happening.

Roy Tucker
08-08-2006, 12:08 PM
It should be interesting to see if anything comes of this.

Something that people need to remember is that all MLB pitchers pitch with pain. There is this space between having the pain being a debilitating thing that affects a pitchers performance and your ordinary garden variety muscle and joint soreness. That space is pretty large.

I think you talk to any pitcher on the Reds (or other teams) staff and, if you get an honest answer, they'll say their arm/shoulder hurts. A lot of a pitchers effectiveness depends on how well a guy can pitch with that pain.

I can't point to any one instance, but it sure seems to happen that when a pitcher's performance takes a downturn from their norm, it eventually comes out that they were having some kind of arm problem. Sometimes its the pitcher hiding it (Majewski) or the team medical staff (Claussen).

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 12:13 PM
You're right, my stubborness knows no bounds, and I've never conceded anything nor changed my opinion on any matter. You've got me pegged.

Register, I certinally would NOT include you in a group of people that would never conceed they were wrong about the trade. You've shown your "reasonablness" time and time again.

But you have to admit there are some here who would lay in wait if the trade was having the intended results right away. Even if it was late next year they'd spring up and proclaim "see, see. We told you it was a horrible trade and would doom us".

By the same token, there are some out there that would hold onto the the notion that this is a great trade even as each player in the trade was DFA'd and Kearns went to the HOF.

I'm of the opinion there are a lot more in the first group than the second. None of which matters a witt to talking about the reds but there you go. Maybe I should get back to work now. Hahahaha

westofyou
08-08-2006, 12:25 PM
You're right, my stubborness knows no bounds, and I've never conceded anything nor changed my opinion on any matter. You've got me pegged.

But enough with that nonsense, my actual position is that the number of things that would have to go right--and wrong--for this trade to even work out as a "wash" for the Reds is significant, and I don't have faith in it happening.
As I said in the trade thread on the duy that it happened, the move sucked because if the Reds did fall apart everyone would say it was because of the trade, despite the team going 9-20 from 6/9 - 7/9 and giving up 5 runs or more in 72% of those games.

Johnny Footstool
08-08-2006, 12:37 PM
Geez Jimbo, you want to find out the facts before heading down to GABP with torch carrying mob in tow? Nahhhh...it's much more fun to speculate, froth at the mouth and spout off.

Kinda like what everyone is doing to Bowden in this thread, huh? :D

Actually, I think this will solidify Krivsky's reputation as an easy mark and damage his chances of pulling off fair deals in the future.

"Why offer Krivsky fair value? Just make him sweat a bit, and he'll crack. He doesn't even check to see if the players are healthy."

dsmith421
08-08-2006, 12:38 PM
Before we start accusing Krivsky of such and demanding his firing, maybe we should find out what is considered within the rules or is common practice.

Good point. I assumed that it was, but could be wrong.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 01:03 PM
Quite frankly, I don't think Reds fans should get too excited about this. The bottom line is that Krivsky didn't do his job here. Kremchek, for God's sake, works for both the Reds and Nats: getting an MRI for these guys or, perhaps, asking them if they had any current injury concerns (i.e., were getting cortisone shots on a regular basis) would have revealed this information.

I think Reds fans should be hopping mad at one man and it's not Jim Bowden. Krivsky's failure to perform due diligence may have seriously damaged the organization present and future. To me, that kind of gross negligence is a no-doubter firing offense.


"We're going to look at the MRI, then go through the proper channels and use the proper protocol," he told reporters. Asked whether the Reds had checked out Majewski's health before the trade, Krivsky said the team's medical staff had exchanged information with their Nationals' counterparts.

Looks like they did ask questions of the Nationals. So that part of your "gross negligence" argument is out the window.

Did they have a medical exam preformed? I don't think that information has been disclosed yet. Perhaps they did. In which case the Doctor performing the medical exam and gave him a "clean bill of health" would be the one who committed gross negligence. If they didn't do we even know if this is a standard practice or allowed?

Did they have an MRI/PET Scan or other imaging type test performed? Again, I don't know if that information was disclosed. Are they even allowed to have these tests done due to some bizzare CBA rule, players union issue or privacy laws? This is unlikely, but a possibility.

If they did have an MRI performed prior to the trade and the doctor who reviewed it OK'd it what do you want Kriv to do? Go to medical school to learn how to read MRI's just to double check? If the Doctor said there was a problem and Kriv ignored it, THEN you'd have your "smoking guy" that Kriv is a blithering idiot. But I don't think that's been established as yet.

So before we fire Kriv perhaps some of the fans here should perform some "due dilligence" before going off the deep end.

registerthis
08-08-2006, 01:18 PM
As I said in the trade thread on the duy that it happened, the move sucked because if the Reds did fall apart everyone would say it was because of the trade, despite the team going 9-20 from 6/9 - 7/9 and giving up 5 runs or more in 72% of those games.

To be consistent, the Reds have had a winning record since the trade, and I still think the trade was a bad idea.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 01:19 PM
Frankly all you guys willing to judge a trade after a month would never concede crap if it turns the other way, so I won't hold my breath.

Quick to judge, quick to slam and slow to think that the game is bigger then what we all see with our eyes.

So you were okay with giving DanO an extension?

When do you judge, when are conclusions okay with you? When it's all been burned to the bloody ground?

I'm more than happy to concede I was wrong: I was wrong about Phillips, I was wrong about Claussen, I was wrong about Edwin Encarnacion at first.

So I'm not the least bit reluctant to admit my errors in judgment.

I just don't believe in sitting on my hands when something this colossally bad has just toppled over on my favorite team--as registerthis pointed out, this is Griffey contract-colossal if it turns out that Krivsky didn't do his homework.

Giving Cody Ross away to the Marlins is a "mistake"; doing what Wayne did at the deadline is a fireable offense, if it turns out to be negligence. And if it's not it's only because baseball's an idiotic old boy's network that doesn't actually have the fan in mind.

danforsman
08-08-2006, 01:20 PM
As I said in the trade thread on the duy that it happened, the move sucked because if the Reds did fall apart everyone would say it was because of the trade, despite the team going 9-20 from 6/9 - 7/9 and giving up 5 runs or more in 72% of those games.

I agree with this 100%. This team was headed for the basement, and rather than wait for the trade deadline and risking the market moving, Krivsky made a bold move. Without making the deal, the Reds would be, in my opinion, in even worse shape than they are now, but the naysayers cannot see the forest for the trees.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 01:23 PM
So you were okay with giving DanO an extension?

Yeah that's exactly what I said... you broke the code

Congrats.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 01:24 PM
Yeah, and while we are at it, we also need to get rid of Castellini, because as the top man, it is all ultimately his fault, too. :rolleyes:

Fire Narron!
Fire Krivsky!
Oust Castellini!

(I hope I didn't forget anyone!)

Nah. Don't want Castellini gone at all.

Because I think he'll be far more pro-active than many of you on here who see nothing wrong at all.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 01:24 PM
Yeah that's exactly what I said... you broke the code

Congrats.

So when did DanO go sour for you? When did you see that something was really wrong?

Joseph
08-08-2006, 01:27 PM
Giving Cody Ross away to the Marlins is a "mistake"; doing what Wayne did at the deadline is a fireable offense, if it turns out to be negligence. And if it's not it's only because baseball's an idiotic old boy's network that doesn't actually have the fan in mind.

Is this the Cody Ross who strikes out one in four ABs?

Or is this the Cody Ross who walks once every 11?

Or maybe its the Cody Ross who has an OBP of 300?

Maybe the one with an OPS of just 771?

Jettisoning riff raff isn't a mistake, it's getting something for nothing.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 01:28 PM
So when did DanO go sour for you? When did you see that something was really wrong?The off season after his first year he was a mess, but he also had a whole off season prior to his first year.

Something that helps a hell of a lot and WK didn't have that chance.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Here is some more history:
.

My point was that the commish never stepped in to enforce a "do over" of these trades. The GM that sent the injured player over did the honorable thing and tried to make it right.

If Bowden wants to dig in his heals and claim that his medical staff gave full disclosure, the Reds are stuck with Maj with no additional compensation. It appears that Bowden did give full disclosure, as Doc Hollywood has only diagnosed "tired arm" and no injury. Since Doc has now gone on record of that, even if Doc changes his mind in 3 weeks and says that Maj needs surgury (and that's happened many times with Doc Hollywood), I don't think the Reds have a leg to stand on. The Reds' own doctor said it was fatigue only.

I think a lot of this thread was just false hope that we'd be able to recover from the trade disaster. Even Wayne was hoping for something to excuse his blunder, because he was initially talking tough.

MaineRed
08-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Giving Cody Ross away to the Marlins is a "mistake"; doing what Wayne did at the deadline is a fireable offense, if it turns out to be negligence. And if it's not it's only because baseball's an idiotic old boy's network that doesn't actually have the fan in mind.

What fan? YOU?

This fan likes what Wayne did and sees why he did it. Loading up on offense has gotten the Reds nowhere. Time to go with some pitching.

Get off your high horse that says Wayne should be fired because YOU didn't like the trade.

I'm so sick of this, its true because I say so, crap.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 01:30 PM
The GM that sent the injured player over did the honorable thing and tried to make it right.

So the Reds should expect nothing eh?

dsmith421
08-08-2006, 01:30 PM
So before we fire Kriv perhaps some of the fans here should perform some "due dilligence" before going off the deep end.

And your "everything is wonderful" schtick is freaking old. As I noted above, I'm viscerally fired up about this, but am going to wait until I see a) what they knew and when they knew it, and b) what the typical standard of care is for a GM acquiring a pitcher.

If Bowden disclosed all relevant information, and Krivsky was aware of Majewski's health problems, that's almost just as bad. It's like, no, it's exactly like, O'Brien resigning Paul Wilson when everyone knew he had a frayed labrum.

This trade has been nothing but a leaguewide joke since it was made. It's getting funnier, and we're the punchline.

Roy Tucker
08-08-2006, 01:32 PM
Whatever happened to the art of reasonable discussion?

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 01:36 PM
Frankly all you guys willing to judge a trade after a month would never concede crap if it turns the other way, so I won't hold my breath. .

Well, speaking for myself, I always admit when I was wrong, when it becomes clear that I mispredicted something.

I was wrong about the Milton signing.
I was wrong about the Dessens-Lopez trade. I initially thought Lopez was a bum. Ironically, now some of the people that called me out last year for panning the Lopez trade now think that Lopez is a bum since he was traded to Wash. :)

In general on this board, I've seen few people that hang on to an opinion about a trade once enough time passes for the result to be obvious. Sure, there's still a few people defending the Reitsma trade, but most have admited it was a bad trade.

registerthis
08-08-2006, 01:36 PM
I'm so sick of this, its true because I say so, crap.

It's called an opinion. We're allowed to have those here. You don't agree that krivsky should be fired for this--and I happen to feel the same way. But I also understand where FCB is coming from. This trade requires a lot of dominos to fall in the right direction to work out, and for a team getting by so tenuously on the talent that it has you just can't make trades that rely on so many "ifs" to be considered positive.

Big Klu
08-08-2006, 01:38 PM
Whatever happened to the art of reasonable discussion?

Art Reasonable Discussion was traded for a PTBNL and cash about three years ago.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 01:38 PM
And your "everything is wonderful" schtick is freaking old.

And where, pray tell, did I post "everything is wonderful" ?

Seems like a bit of the ole "strawman" that some here are so fond of.

ochre
08-08-2006, 01:38 PM
Nah. Don't want Castellini gone at all.

Because I think he'll be far more pro-active than many of you on here who see nothing wrong at all.
The good news is you are likely witnessing his pro-activitude with this very trade. Reads very much as a directive to a subordinate: "Do something, now!".

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 01:40 PM
The good news is you are likely witnessing his pro-activitude with this very trade. Reads very much as a directive to a subordinate: "Do something, now!".

Brian Cashman does it. A lot of GM's perform under pressure-filled directives. Just because his boss is leaning on him to get the job done doesn't mean he gets a free pass when he decides to use the spending account on strip clubs.

Hell, even favorite whipping boy Kullman pulled off brilliant moves under severe pressure from Lindner.

I really like that Castellini's taking the riding crop to his GM. It simply HAS to be that way, if this thing is going to get turned around in most fans' lifetimes...but it's got to be a man (woman?) who can withstand the pressure and perform.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 01:41 PM
Did they have a medical exam preformed? I don't think that information has been disclosed yet. .

Yes they did.
Doc Hollywood says he has a tired arm, and Wayne has backed down from accusing Bowden.

So, in the end, Bowden didn't lie and Wayne wasn't grossly negligient with regards to inquirying about injury issues. So, we'll have to find something else to generate drama. :laugh:

Johnny Footstool
08-08-2006, 01:44 PM
I agree with this 100%. This team was headed for the basement, and rather than wait for the trade deadline and risking the market moving, Krivsky made a bold move. Without making the deal, the Reds would be, in my opinion, in even worse shape than they are now, but the naysayers cannot see the forest for the trees.

Worse shape in the standings, maybe. Worse shape in terms of tradeable talent that could be used to fix the plethora of other holes in the Reds (namely, the rotation)? Not by a long shot.

Forest for the trees...

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 01:44 PM
Yes they did.
Doc Hollywood says he has a tired arm, and Wayne has backed down from accusing Bowden.

So, in the end, Bowden didn't lie and Wayne wasn't grossly negligient with regards to inquirying about injury issues. So, we'll have to find something else to generate drama. :laugh:


Have to find something else for drama? hahahaha that shouldn't take long.

I meant did they have a medical exam performed prior to the trade. I don't know if they released that info. Maybe they did and I missed it.

ochre
08-08-2006, 01:44 PM
So, we'll have to find something else to generate drama. :laugh:
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/df/Cat-dramagenerating.jpg

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 01:44 PM
So the Reds should expect nothing eh?

Dude, did you see the diagnosis from Doc? It's tired arm. Bowden did not lie.

If anything, Wayne was dishonorable for making accusations before all the data was in. Nice of Wayne to stir up the press and rumors before getting an exam. But I guess he was desparate to salvage his own reputation.

Johnny Footstool
08-08-2006, 01:46 PM
The off season after his first year he was a mess, but he also had a whole off season prior to his first year.

Something that helps a hell of a lot and WK didn't have that chance.

True, but IMO, he submarined his first offseason by trading away his commodities mid-season for middle relief. The cupboard is pretty bare now.

smith288
08-08-2006, 01:47 PM
Bowden served his dish of revenge against his former club cold. Very cold.

If I didn't hate him so much, I'd almost admire him. But then, for my money, any idiot should have seen Bowden's shenanigans.

Fire Wayne.
Do me a favor...when you make a mistake on the job, remind me to recommend your boss to toss you out with the garbage for the GAUL of being human.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 01:48 PM
Dude, did you see the diagnosis from Doc? It's tired arm. Bowden did not lie.

Gold Star for Robot Boy then, I guess.

BTW that was tongue in cheek on the prior exchange. Bowdens dealing with Brantley automatically makes him a suspect in dealing bad goods, comes with the territory.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 01:48 PM
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/df/Cat-dramagenerating.jpg


WHOA...is that the Drama-matic 2000?

Puffy
08-08-2006, 01:48 PM
Frankly all you guys willing to judge a trade after a month would never concede crap if it turns the other way, so I won't hold my breath.

Quick to judge, quick to slam and slow to think that the game is bigger then what we all see with our eyes.

Hey, I've been against the trade since the beginning so I guess I won't ever concede if I'm wrong.

Congrats, you broke that code.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 01:48 PM
Do me a favor...when you make a mistake on the job, remind me to recommend your boss to toss you out with the garbage for the GAUL of being human.


If I spent my boss's money like Krivsky spent his, I'd be fired.

Big Klu
08-08-2006, 01:52 PM
In general on this board, I've seen few people that hang on to an opinion about a trade once enough time passes for the result to be obvious. Sure, there's still a few people defending the Reitsma trade, but most have admited it was a bad trade.


I still don't think that the Reitsma trade was a bad trade. I don't think it was a good one, but it wasn't bad either. It was an "eh" trade. That is because I don't have the same opinion of Reitsma (the player--I'm sure he is a fine person) that some others do. I just don't think that Reitsma is that good. As such, it was worth the risk to get two minor-league pitchers for him. They didn't pan out, but he hasn't really distinguished himself either. The trade is a washout, IMO.

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 02:02 PM
Gold Star for Robot Boy then, I guess.

BTW that was tongue in cheek on the prior exchange. Bowdens dealing with Brantley automatically makes him a suspect in dealing bad goods, comes with the territory.

Who is Robot Boy?

Ok, I apologize if I misread your earlier remark. And I agree 100% about dealing with Bowden. Heck, if Bowden gave me a free puppy, I'd insist on a full body scan before taking it home. :laugh:

Roy Tucker
08-08-2006, 02:07 PM
Heck, if Bowden gave me a free puppy, I'd insist on a full body scan before taking it home. :laugh:

Which begs the question... can you give a CAT scan to a puppy?

REDREAD
08-08-2006, 02:07 PM
I still don't think that the Reitsma trade was a bad trade..

Ok, I can respect your opinion, but since we have hindsight now..

Reitsma gave the Braves two solid years of relief pitching. Maybe he wasn't closer material, but he's certainly a good relief pitcher. And we didn't get anything in return.

I can agree that the thought process wasn't necessarily bad. DanO thought he was getting two future starting pitchers. But I think DanO failed miserably on the execution.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 02:07 PM
Who is Robot Boy?

It's a song... that too was tongue in cheek.

Goes as thus.

if i waited for you
to show me all the actions i should take
would i get my break?
gold star for robot boy

I find it to be the Redszone theme song for the month myself.

Rob Dicken
08-08-2006, 02:08 PM
If I spent my boss's money like Krivsky spent his, I'd be fired.

Fortunately, your boss doesn't give you that priveledge.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 02:10 PM
If I spent my boss's money like Krivsky spent his, I'd be fired.

But BC is smart enough to know that you don't pull the plug on an investement or person because you don't see the results you want right away. He's business savy enough to know that if you build a new production facility and there are some bugs to be worked out that you don't knock it down and build a new one. That's amazingly rash, and would be a colossal waste of resources.

And this assumes that BC isn't happy with the results he is seeing. We can only speculate at this point.

ochre
08-08-2006, 02:14 PM
I know next to nothing about BC's business acumen. I know he made a crap load of money off of some backdoor deals with Lindner, but other than that I haven't seen too much about his career in the produce business, or what his role with the Cardinals was.

I'm not trying to be negative, just asking for some background on Castellini if anyone might have it here.

jimbo
08-08-2006, 02:25 PM
So, in the end, Bowden didn't lie and Wayne wasn't grossly negligient with regards to inquirying about injury issues. So, we'll have to find something else to generate drama. :laugh:

Majewski says that he was being treated for tendinitis and was on anti-inflammatories for most of the season. He also had a cortisone shot right before the All-Star break (at the time the two teams were in trade discussions). It doesn't sound like any of this information was given to the Reds so whether it was lying or withholding information, it's still the same.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 02:28 PM
But BC is smart enough to know that you don't pull the plug on an investement or person because you don't see the results you want right away. He's business savy enough to know that if you build a new production facility and there are some bugs to be worked out that you don't knock it down and build a new one. That's amazingly rash, and would be a colossal waste of resources.

And this assumes that BC isn't happy with the results he is seeing. We can only speculate at this point.

But if the engine driving this big new investment is busted, a smart businessman will sure as hell get the engine fixed.

Yeah, you can put off the streamlining of your investment for a while, but not the thing that makes everything else move, work, and operate.

ochre
08-08-2006, 02:31 PM
...but not the thing that makes everything else move, work, and operate.
I thought that was 1/2 price tickets and $1 hot dogs? :)

CougarQuest
08-08-2006, 02:32 PM
I have not read anything that said Krivsky was blaming Bowden for anything. I've read the media blaming Bowden. I've read Krivsky saying that he did not know that Maj was taking cort shots right before the ASB and was surprised to hear about it. I've read that Krivsky then would not discuss any of the discussions between the Reds and the Nationals (which is the right thing to do at that point, not play out everything in public).

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 02:45 PM
But if the engine driving this big new investment is busted, a smart businessman will sure as hell get the engine fixed.

Yeah, you can put off the streamlining of your investment for a while, but not the thing that makes everything else move, work, and operate.

But you are working from the asumption that the "engine" is busted. I don't agree with your premise that Kriv is "busted", a bad GM, or however else you want to describe it. So I can't work from that premise because it is flawed, IMO.

smith288
08-08-2006, 02:46 PM
If I spent my boss's money like Krivsky spent his, I'd be fired.
When in fact, your job isnt to spend your boss' money so that comparison is moot.

Krivsky's job is high risk. Mistakes can be as big as the possible gains. To maintain a revolving door for any mistakes yet not account for the positives he has done is a faux paus and only makes you a small yet annoying minority regarding the overall job Krivsky has done.

dabvu2498
08-08-2006, 02:54 PM
When in fact, your job isnt to spend your boss' money so that comparison is moot.

Krivsky's job is high risk. Mistakes can be as big as the possible gains. To maintain a revolving door for any mistakes yet not account for the positives he has done is a faux paus and only makes you a small yet annoying minority regarding the overall job Krivsky has done.
I dare say also, that it's very unlikely that much of that money gets spent (ie. major trades) without Bob's direct approval.

Redny
08-08-2006, 03:14 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/SPT04/308080037


Kremchek sounds off
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER
The bad feelings continued Tuesday among Reds officials over Monday’s disclosure that relief pitcher Gary Majewski, who has been sent to the disabled list, took a cortisone shot for tendonitis in his shoulder just days before being traded to Cincinnati from the Washington Nationals.

Reds officials are angry that they were not told of the cortisone shot, and the club may file a grievance over the trade.

The Reds’ medical director, Dr. Tim Kremchek, said on Tuesday that the team would have taken a closer look at Majewski’s health before completing the July 13 eight-player deal that sent Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to the Nationals.

The 26-year-old Majewski has struggled for the Reds. His ERA with the Reds is 12.54. He gave up 21 hits in 9 1/3 innings.

Kremchek said Majewski was told to keep quiet before the trade.

"The troubling thing about this as much as anything … was (Majewski) was told to keep it under the radar," Kremchek said.

"We asked him if he was OK, he said, 'Yeah, I'm all right.'"

Kremchek added that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis in Majewski’s shoulder, and that the deal likely would have gone through.

"His shoulder looks clean," Kremchek said. "It would have been (Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky's) call, but I imagine we would have made the trade."

Kremchek said he has never given a player from another club a physical before a trade is completed.

"The way it works is the GM talks to the GM," Kremchek said. "If there's any issues, medical talks to medical."

In Majewski's case, Reds trainer Mark Mann talked to the Nationals trainer.

"(The Nationals) didn't allude to anything," Kremchek said.

Kremchek, who is a consultant for the Nationals, said his relationship with that team may end over this incident.

Jim Bowden, the Nationals general manager, did not return a phone call from the Enquirer on Tuesday.

In an e-mail sent to The Washington Post regarding Majewski’s placement on the disabled list, Bowden said, "In every trade we make, our medical and training staff are always thorough, complete and give full disclosure on information on any player involved in the transaction as requested by the other club involved in the transaction per major league rules."

Kremchek said he never met Majewski until after the trade.

He said Majewski's medical records did not arrive in Cincinnati until Aug. 1, the day after the trade deadline.

"And even then, they weren't complete," Kremchek said.


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:19 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/SPT04/308080037
Kremchek added that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis in Majewski’s shoulder, and that the deal likely would have gone through.

"His shoulder looks clean," Kremchek said. "It would have been (Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky's) call, but I imagine we would have made the trade."

I don't know what worries me more. The fact that we didn't do our homework or the fact that even if we did do our homework, we'd still give away Kearns and Lopez for damaged goods.

Unbelievable.

jimbo
08-08-2006, 03:21 PM
This just came out.....thanks for posting it.

Wow, this is sounding really ugly on Bowden's part. Majewski was actually told to keep quiet. I wonder if all of the posters who had knee-jerk reactions blaming Krivsky and wanting him fired will have a change of heart now?

jimbo
08-08-2006, 03:22 PM
I don't know what worries me more. The fact that we didn't do our homework or the fact that even if we did do our homework, we'd still give away Kearns and Lopez for damaged goods.

Unbelievable.

How much homework do you expect them to do? It sounds like they did everything that is common practice in mlb when it comes to trades.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:24 PM
This just came out.....thanks for posting it.

Wow, this is sounding really ugly on Bowden's part. Majewski was actually told to keep quiet. I wonder if all of the posters who had knee-jerk reactions blaming Krivsky and wanting him fired will have a change of heart now?

If he still wanted the trade knowing Majewski was hurt, my feelings haven't changed.

He's either guilty of not doing his homework, prior to a making pretty significant trade, or guilty of sheer stupidity.

Actually, maybe both.

Always Red
08-08-2006, 03:26 PM
Doc Hollywood is CYA-ing on this one, and rightly so, if it went down like this.

I think Kriv just doesn't want to play this out in the media, and will probably file a grievance, but nothing will come of it.

Someone in the organization should have reminded Krivsky that Bowden is usually less than honest.

Kremcheck is protecting his reputation; I don't blame him at all, and I'd do the same.

jimbo
08-08-2006, 03:27 PM
If he still wanted the trade knowing Majewski was hurt, my feelings haven't changed.


Where are you getting this? I see nothing in this article that says anything of that nature.

"Kremchek added that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis in Majewski’s shoulder, and that the deal likely would have gone through.

"His shoulder looks clean," Kremchek said. "It would have been (Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky's) call, but I imagine we would have made the trade."

He clearly states that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis.

dabvu2498
08-08-2006, 03:27 PM
If he still wanted the trade knowing Majewski was hurt, my feelings haven't changed.

He's either guilty of not doing his homework, prior to a making pretty significant trade, or guilty of sheer stupidity.

Actually, maybe both.
Not sure what Maj's last few outings for the Nats were like, but I wonder if it would be a reasonable expecatation for someone watching him in person (a scout) to know that his stuff was looking hittable.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:29 PM
How much homework do you expect them to do? It sounds like they did everything that is common practice in mlb when it comes to trades.

Most everyone that criticized this trade (RedsZone posters and media members alike) agreed that a key component, Majewski, had been heavily used by Washington for the past year and a half and we might be taking on a tired arm, for the stretch run.

You'd think, bases on that common knowledge, the brain-trust would be pretty thorough in their evaluation of such a key component of a rather large trade.

Always Red
08-08-2006, 03:29 PM
I still find it incredible that a $1000 MRI is not done routinely when trading or signing pitchers to million dollar deals.

It's an easy solution that protects both sides and adds trust to the deal. They are relatively cheap, and there is little chance of radiation exposure adding up (yes, I'm in the field).

There are MRI machines on nearly every street corner now; heck soon you'll be able to get one at Kroger's right next to the blood pressure machine.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 03:32 PM
If he still wanted the trade knowing Majewski was hurt, my feelings haven't changed.

He's either guilty of not doing his homework, prior to a making pretty significant trade, or guilty of sheer stupidity.

Actually, maybe both.

All of the details in this are murky at best. I can't imagine we'll ever really know the exact back-and-forth details.

That being said, how can you read the above article and come to the conclusion that Kriv still wanted the trade knowing Maj was hurt?

Asumming that story is true (and I fully admit that is an assumption):
The doctor just said an MRI would not have revealed tendionits.
The head trainer talked to the Nats head trainer.
The Nats trainer left out important information: ie that shots have been given
Maj was apprently told to omit importnant information
Doc K said he has never performed a personal exam prior to a trade

Yet despite all of this, you still jump right to "Kriv still would have done the deal knowing he was hurt" and that they didn't do "enough" investigation. Then you finish by calling him stupid.

How in the world do you make that leap?

Puffy
08-08-2006, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna take Doc Hollywood's words on the trade as complete hearsay. Talk about someone who's got a credibility problem.

jimbo
08-08-2006, 03:37 PM
Most everyone that criticized this trade (RedsZone posters and media members alike) agreed that a key component, Majewski, had been heavily used by Washington for the past year and a half and we might be taking on a tired arm, for the stretch run.

You'd think, bases on that common knowledge, the brain-trust would be pretty thorough in their evaluation of such a key component of a rather large trade.

Then question becomes how thorough to you get? If you look hard enough, you can probably find something wrong physically with just about every player in the league.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:37 PM
Where are you getting this? I see nothing in this article that says anything of that nature.

"Kremchek added that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis in Majewski’s shoulder, and that the deal likely would have gone through.

"His shoulder looks clean," Kremchek said. "It would have been (Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky's) call, but I imagine we would have made the trade."

He clearly states that an MRI would not have revealed the tendonitis.

I guess I'm basing it on Kremchek's comments and Krvisky's where they downplay the injury, like it is no big deal. I'm sure it's to keep Majewski happy, but Kriv just seems so ho-hum about the injury. Why didn't they know this (tired arm) before the trade? Do they scout potential trading partners or just look at the back of last year's baseball card?

"The bottom line is he's got a tired shoulder," Krivsky said.
"He needs rest, he needs strengthening. There's nothing structurally wrong. He doesn't need surgery. We fully expect him to be pitching this year."

This is inexcusable.

RedsMan3203
08-08-2006, 03:40 PM
I still find it incredible that a $1000 MRI is not done routinely when trading or signing pitchers to million dollar deals.

It's an easy solution that protects both sides and adds trust to the deal. They are relatively cheap, and there is little chance of radiation exposure adding up (yes, I'm in the field).

There are MRI machines on nearly every street corner now; heck soon you'll be able to get one at Kroger's right next to the blood pressure machine.


Because the MRI would of came back Clean for him.... And even a MRI doesn't tell you everything that has been done.....

Danny Serafini
08-08-2006, 03:42 PM
You know what bugs me right now? That (assuming this story is true) the Reds have a guy in their locker room who lied about his condition in a situation that had to have sounded shady to him and hurt his new team. Nice work, I'm sure he's real popular in the clubhouse right now.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 03:42 PM
This is inexcusable.

No more then these IMO


Kremchek said Majewski was told to keep quiet before the trade.

"(The Nationals) didn't allude to anything," Kremchek said.

Kremchek said he never met Majewski until after the trade.

He said Majewski's medical records did not arrive in Cincinnati until Aug. 1, the day after the trade deadline.

"And even then, they weren't complete," Kremchek said.

Jim Bowden, the Nationals general manager, did not return a phone call from the Enquirer on Tuesday.

Always Red
08-08-2006, 03:44 PM
Because the MRI would of came back Clean for him.... And even a MRI doesn't tell you everything that has been done.....
In this case, yes, it would have come back clean. That's not my point.

But wouldn't you rather know that BEFORE the trade, than after?

An MRI will not tell you what's been done, but it will tell you if something is wrong- most of the time.

RedsMan3203
08-08-2006, 03:45 PM
You know what bugs me right now? That (assuming this story is true) the Reds have a guy in their locker room who lied about his condition in a situation that had to have sounded shady to him and hurt his new team. Nice work, I'm sure he's real popular in the clubhouse right now.


He wasn't asked till when? Probably yesterday about it.. or the day before... He came into Cincinnati feeling fine because of the shot.... then he starting pitching and it started acting up... Like any pro player he is going to try to play through the pain and come up big... It just got to him.. to much pain and no sucess... So he comes up and says hey... this is what happend...

I don't have a problem with what he did... He thought the shot "fixed" the problem.

jimbo
08-08-2006, 03:45 PM
"The bottom line is he's got a tired shoulder," Krivsky said.
"He needs rest, he needs strengthening. There's nothing structurally wrong. He doesn't need surgery. We fully expect him to be pitching this year."

This is inexcusable.

What in that statement is so inexcusable. The MRI does show there is nothing wrong structurally. Kremcheck states that he needs rest and strengthening. Tendonitis normally does not require surgery. Where is the conspiracy theory, because that's what sounds like some are insinuating?

I really don't get this backlash towards Krivsky and the Reds. Unless you believe they are all a bunch of liars, everything leads to the Nationals witholding information and instructing their trade prospect to keep their mouth shut.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:46 PM
If the MRI reveals no damage, how do they know there is a problem?

Tired arm?

What does that mean?

Is "tired arm" translated to "I made a huge mistake by bringing this guy here and he can't get an out and is killing us, so I'll stick him on the DL and claim he's got a 'tired arm' and spare myself some egg on my face, because everyone will now be focusing on what a dirtball Bowden is"?

Danny Graves had "tired arm" for a few years. Maybe that's Milton's problem too. What about Elizardo? Coffey? Yeah, everyone's got a tired arm. That's it.

Danny Serafini
08-08-2006, 03:47 PM
He wasn't asked till when? Probably yesterday about it.. or the day before... He came into Cincinnati feeling fine because of the shot.... then he starting pitching and it started acting up... Like any pro player he is going to try to play through the pain and come up big... It just got to him.. to much pain and no sucess... So he comes up and says hey... this is what happend...

I don't have a problem with what he did... He thought the shot "fixed" the problem.

From the article:

"The troubling thing about this as much as anything … was (Majewski) was told to keep it under the radar," Kremchek said.

"We asked him if he was OK, he said, 'Yeah, I'm all right.'"

The Nationals asked him to keep an injury quiet, and he did. That's shady, and it screwed his new team. That's very poor form from Majewski, and if I was one of his teammates I wouldn't be very happy about it.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2006, 03:48 PM
No more then these IMO

I agree.

This is hopefully where we get compensated. Keep Majewski and give us Rauch. That would be fair and teach Leatherpants a lesson.

westofyou
08-08-2006, 03:49 PM
Danny Graves had "tired arm" for a few years. Maybe that's Milton's problem too. What about Elizardo? Coffey? Yeah, everyone's got a tired arm. That's it.Pitching a baseball is an unnatural event, things happen, they get better they don't... it's part of the game. Milton's problem is his knee, but hey... you knew that.

RedsMan3203
08-08-2006, 03:49 PM
In this case, yes, it would have come back clean. That's not my point.

But wouldn't you rather know that BEFORE the trade, than after?

An MRI will not tell you what's been done, but it will tell you if something is wrong- most of the time.


So... You lookin at his stats.... Over the past 2 months before the trade... You see him Post a ERA of 2.20 in May and a ERA of 3.45 in June.... He pitched in 28 games striking out 22 batters.... Would you really think there was something wrong with him?


And in the month of July before the trade he pitched in 5 games... Gave up 3 ER in those 5 games... All 3 coming the day before the trade...

To me... those numbers dont' warrent much of anything.

registerthis
08-08-2006, 03:49 PM
No more then these IMO

That's like agreeing to purchase a company before you've had the chance to analyze all of the financial information. It doesn't excuse Bowden's behavior--which is typically deplorable--but krivsky dropped the ball on this one, too.

Ltlabner
08-08-2006, 03:50 PM
Is "tired arm" translated to "I made a huge mistake by bringing this guy here and he can't get an out and is killing us, so I'll stick him on the DL and claim he's got a 'tired arm' and spare myself some egg on my face, because everyone will now be focusing on what a dirtball Bowden is"?

Only by those who have an intense hatred of this trade and seemingly now Krivsky.

Only by those who want to believe Krivsky is an ego maniac who can't admit a mistake (assuming there was one).

Only by those who are apparently blinded by rage.

RedsMan3203
08-08-2006, 03:52 PM
From the article:

"The troubling thing about this as much as anything … was (Majewski) was told to keep it under the radar," Kremchek said.

"We asked him if he was OK, he said, 'Yeah, I'm all right.'"

The Nationals asked him to keep an injury quiet, and he did. That's shady, and it screwed his new team. That's very poor form from Majewski, and if I was one of his teammates I wouldn't be very happy about it.

While I agree with you... But there is also a point of the shot taking away the pain and such from what he is hurting from... So at the point when he said he was "ok" he probably didn't feel any pain or anything.

Danny Serafini
08-08-2006, 03:54 PM
I really don't get this backlash towards Krivsky and the Reds.

I honestly believe there are a few people here who get as much enjoyment out of the Reds losing as they do winning so that they can run around and say "Look at me! I'm smarter than the GM!"

registerthis
08-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Is "tired arm" translated to "I made a huge mistake by bringing this guy here and he can't get an out and is killing us, so I'll stick him on the DL and claim he's got a 'tired arm' and spare myself some egg on my face, because everyone will now be focusing on what a dirtball Bowden is"?

There's something clearly physically wrong with Majewski--whether it's "tired arm" or seomthing else. He may not be the bullpen's savior, but he's not nearly this awful, either. I don't think DL'ing Majewski is a cop-out on Krivsky's part, i think he is legitimately injured.