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edabbs44
08-08-2006, 12:13 AM
#8 - Not Kyle Lohse

Traded from the Reds to the Twins, Ward dominated his former team in his first Beloit start as he threw 5 2/3 shutout innings to earn his eighth win. That followed a shutout in his final Dayton start. The Gardner-Webb product is now 8-0, 2.18 in 120 innings and has just added to the Twins impressive systematic pitching depth.

Aronchis
08-08-2006, 12:40 AM
#8 - Not Kyle Lohse

Traded from the Reds to the Twins, Ward dominated his former team in his first Beloit start as he threw 5 2/3 shutout innings to earn his eighth win. That followed a shutout in his final Dayton start. The Gardner-Webb product is now 8-0, 2.18 in 120 innings and has just added to the Twins impressive systematic pitching depth.

Kill me when he does it in high A if not AA.

Clemson
08-08-2006, 12:57 AM
5 innings 2 runs 0 walks 7 K's...against the braves

sounds better than beating up on a dayton team where one of their 2-3 decent hitters has a stiff neck

dougdirt
08-08-2006, 02:35 AM
Clemson, he has been doing that all year...to every team.
That was the point.
Kyle Loshe did just fine for the Reds. It also was just one start.

edabbs44
08-08-2006, 07:34 AM
5 innings 2 runs 0 walks 7 K's...against the braves

sounds better than beating up on a dayton team where one of their 2-3 decent hitters has a stiff neck
And a 7 ERA the rest of the season...

Steve4192
08-08-2006, 09:03 AM
And a 7 ERA the rest of the season...
At least Kyle Lohse is pitching in the majors. That is more than Ward (or any other single A pitcher) is likely to ever do. Folks need to get over their obsession with low-minors prospects. The VAST majority of them never even make the show, much less provide quality production.

Steve4192
08-08-2006, 09:08 AM
And a 7 ERA the rest of the season...
And a league average ERA for his career.

edabbs44
08-08-2006, 09:28 AM
And a league average ERA for his career.
So you would have had no problem if they dealt Bailey last year for Kyle Lohse?

Heath
08-08-2006, 09:50 AM
So you would have had no problem if they dealt Bailey last year for Kyle Lohse?

Well, depending on the other management team, I wouldn't have been surprised.

I'm with the majority here, So what if Zach Ward can toss it against Low-A ball. He's 23 with a drop-ceiling of potential. Zach Ward pitching is like Danny Almonte tossing it against the Iowa All-Stars a few years ago.

I'd rather have someone like Lohse, no matter how flawed, but is a servicable major leaguer than Zach Ward right now.

dabvu2498
08-08-2006, 09:58 AM
Lohse in 1998 -- Rockford (Midwest) -- 19 years old -- 13-8 3.22 ERA 8.3 H/9 2.3 BB/9 6.4 K/9 1.19 WHIP

Ward will be lucky to have Kyle Lohse's Major League career. He'll be lucky to pitch one game in the Majors.

edabbs44
08-08-2006, 10:14 AM
Lohse in 1998 -- Rockford (Midwest) -- 19 years old -- 13-8 3.22 ERA 8.3 H/9 2.3 BB/9 6.4 K/9 1.19 WHIP

Ward will be lucky to have Kyle Lohse's Major League career. He'll be lucky to pitch one game in the Majors.
Wow...we'll see what happens.

dougdirt
08-08-2006, 01:08 PM
First off, Ward is 22.

Secondly, its rough to lose a top 10 prospect in your organization for a guy with a 7+ ERA, regardless of if they guy is in A ball or AAA.

dabvu2498
08-08-2006, 01:35 PM
First off, Ward is 22.

Secondly, its rough to lose a top 10 prospect in your organization for a guy with a 7+ ERA, regardless of if they guy is in A ball or AAA.
My contention would be that Ward is almost exactly where Lohse was 8 years ago, but he was 3 years younger!

If Zach Ward ends up having a Kyle Lohse-type MLB career, that would be great. The odds are against him ever throwing a pitch at the MLB level, however.

I have no problems with this deal. They traded a guy who might make it for a guy who could go pitch immediately at the MLB level.

dougdirt
08-08-2006, 01:41 PM
My contention would be that Ward is almost exactly where Lohse was 8 years ago, but he was 3 years younger!

If Zach Ward ends up having a Kyle Lohse-type MLB career, that would be great. The odds are against him ever throwing a pitch at the MLB level, however.

I have no problems with this deal. They traded a guy who might make it for a guy who could go pitch immediately at the MLB level.

I might also contend that Zach Ward could have pitched in the majors this year and had an ERA of 7.07.

Another thing is, this was Zachs first year in the minors. He also will be promoted faster than Lohse was if he produces, being he is a college product and not a HS product. The Reds kept him in Dayton for their own reasons, but not because he needed to be there.

dabvu2498
08-08-2006, 01:50 PM
I might also contend that Zach Ward could have pitched in the majors this year and had an ERA of 7.07.

Another thing is, this was Zachs first year in the minors. He also will be promoted faster than Lohse was if he produces, being he is a college product and not a HS product. The Reds kept him in Dayton for their own reasons, but not because he needed to be there.
The easier contention, based on minor league performance, would have been that Mike Burns could have managed a suitable ERA. That didn't happen.

Also, Lohse was promoted plenty fast. He made 16 starts in Minnesota at age 22.

edabbs44
08-08-2006, 02:19 PM
The easier contention, based on minor league performance, would have been that Mike Burns could have managed a suitable ERA. That didn't happen.

Also, Lohse was promoted plenty fast. He made 16 starts in Minnesota at age 22.
The fact of the matter is that Lohse wasn't worth squat and WK dealt a potentially valuable chip for him. $3 million dollar pitchers with 7 ERAs aren't very valuable. He should have cost pennies on the dollar.

Ravenlord
08-08-2006, 03:16 PM
Lohse has never developed a strike out pitch, nor has he ever had the raw potential for one. Ward has shown that he MIGHT have the potential to develop a strike out pitch at higher levels.

that said, if Lohse stays far away from the rotation, i like the deal.

BoydsOfSummer
08-08-2006, 04:28 PM
Actually,Lohse isn't league average.


KYLE LOHSE

GIVEN NAME: Kyle M. Lohse
BORN: 10/4/1978 Chico, California
BAT: R THROW: R HEIGHT: 6'2" WEIGHT: 190 MLB DEBUT: 6/22/2001

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
2001 Twins 22 4 7 .364 19 16 0 0 2 90.1 102 60 57 29 64 5.68 -12
2002 Twins 23 13 8 .619 32 31 1 0 0 180.2 181 92 85 70 124 4.23 3
2003 Twins 24 14 11 .560 33 33 2 0 0 201 211 107 103 45 130 4.61 0
2004 Twins 25 9 13 .409 35 34 1 0 1 194 240 128 115 76 111 5.34 -13
2005 Twins 26 9 13 .409 31 30 0 0 1 178.2 211 85 83 44 86 4.18 4
TOTALS 49 52 .485 150 144 4 0 4 844.2 945 472 443 264 515 4.72 -18
LG AVERAGE 47 47 .500 6 1 844.2 871 459 422 300 588 4.50 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
2001 Twins 16 10.16 13.85 6.38 2.89 2.21 0 5 0 8 402 0 4 7
2002 Twins 26 9.02 12.95 6.18 3.49 1.77 1 8 2 9 783 0 11 10
2003 Twins 28 9.45 11.69 5.82 2.01 2.89 1 10 1 5 850 1 13 12
2004 Twins 28 11.13 14.98 5.15 3.53 1.46 1 6 5 7 883 0 10 12
2005 Twins 22 10.63 13.30 4.33 2.22 1.95 0 4 5 9 769 1 12 10
TOTALS 120 10.07 13.29 5.49 2.81 1.95 3 33 13 38 3687 2 50 51
LG AVERAGE 104 9.29 12.88 6.27 3.20 1.96 1 30 21 37 3656 3


Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia
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http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com

RBA
08-08-2006, 06:36 PM
Kill me now .


I'm busy right now. How does 10:30 Eastern Time sound to you?

edabbs44
08-08-2006, 07:02 PM
I'm busy right now. How does 10:30 Eastern Time sound to you?
Depends on the outcome of the game tonight.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2006, 07:53 PM
I love how people call Lohse a league average starter when his season ERA is 2.29 runs above the NL average. He's actually no where near league average.

Danny Serafini
08-08-2006, 08:12 PM
That's not fair, he got his numbers in the AL, where the ERAs are higher. I'm not saying he's had a good season at all, but at least use comparable numbers instead of slanting things.

BoydsOfSummer
08-08-2006, 11:45 PM
I posted his career stats against the league average. He wasn't average in the A.L. either.


Happy birthday by the way,Dan S.

Danny Serafini
08-09-2006, 11:47 AM
I just meant the post above mine comparing his numbers to the NL average wasn't really fair, since he was pitching in the AL. Probably should've quoted that in my post. And thanks!