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SteelSD
08-16-2006, 02:26 AM
No, I don't think Wayne should get a free pass on this.

I'm sure Bowden told Wayne the bare minimum that he felt obligated to. Should Wayne expect anything more from any GM?

Even if Maj was 100% healthy, it's still a bad trade.

Here's what I'm trying to figure out...

If the trade was made contingent on health, why would a MLB General Manager be content with records arriving two weeks after the trade? If I made a high-dollar purchase contingent on a professional evaluation of condition, you can bet I'm going to stipulate a timeframe for the production of the required information. And if the required information isn't delivered within my presribed timeframe, you can bet that I'd consider that a red flag and would be knocking down doors to acquire it.

That's the problem with this deal from a health standpoint. The lack of urgency from the Reds in acquiring the medical records can be read as a stipulation as to the positive health record of the acquisition (Majewski).

Bowden's a shark, no doubt. But the Reds, from a risk management perspective, dropped the ball big time. At this point, the question isn't whether or not someone scammed you (that's a certainty). The question is whether or not you did what was necessary to avoid being scammed. The answer is, quite obviously, "no" at this point or MLB wouldn't be telling the two teams to work it out on their own.

And it appears that Krivsky is requesting a "prospect" from Washington to "even out" the trade. Ok. But if I were Bowden, I'd refuse to give it based on the implied stipulation of Majewski's health considering the foot dragging regarding the receipt of medical records. Is that fair to the Reds? No. But that's the way the world works regarding naivete. If you let yourself be taken, you're going to be took. Sucks and all that but naivete coupled with lack of urgency isnt' a defense. It's an excuse.

SteelSD
08-16-2006, 02:31 AM
How many times now has Bowden been called out by other organizations?
Granted Bowden was the gm of my hometown team, but I've still never seen anything like it.

What a sad legacy that guy will have to carry around when he's finally done.

And I agree, Ced. Bowden is a shyster of the first order. His legacy won't read any different. That being said, if you're dealing with the known unscrupulous you need to protect yourself. Heck, I deal with folks like that every single day.

Cedric
08-16-2006, 02:35 AM
And I agree, Ced. Bowden is a shyster of the first order. His legacy won't read any different. That being said, if you're dealing with the known unscrupulous you need to protect yourself. Heck, I deal with folks like that every single day.

Sad truth.

Painful lesson for Krivsky.

REDREAD
08-16-2006, 03:29 AM
If the trade was made contingent on health, why would a MLB General Manager be content with records arriving two weeks after the trade? If I made a high-dollar purchase contingent on a professional evaluation of condition, you can bet I'm going to stipulate a timeframe for the production of the required information. .

Yes, it's like buying a house, paying for it, and then hiring a home inspector and getting the terminite inspection done. And then trying to get "compensation" from the seller for problems found.

I don't see why Wayne is trying to get a prospect out of Washington, other than to try to validate that he's right and get some kind of admission of guilt out of Bowden. Even if Wayne does get a prospect out of Wash, it's not like it's going to be a good one.

Cedric
08-16-2006, 04:02 AM
Yes, it's like buying a house, paying for it, and then hiring a home inspector and getting the terminite inspection done. And then trying to get "compensation" from the seller for problems found.

I don't see why Wayne is trying to get a prospect out of Washington, other than to try to validate that he's right and get some kind of admission of guilt out of Bowden. Even if Wayne does get a prospect out of Wash, it's not like it's going to be a good one.

If you asked the owner that is selling the house I bet he would tell you the truth about the termites. I'm not so sure this type of shady dealings is so common place like people here seem to think. I think injuries is something that most GM's just don't fool around with.

If Bowden was asked point blank about the shoulder and he lied it's an incredibly distasteful move considering there are only 30 businesses to which he can deal with.

REDREAD
08-17-2006, 03:53 AM
If you asked the owner that is selling the house I bet he would tell you the truth about the termites. I'm not so sure this type of shady dealings is so common place like people here seem to think. I think injuries is something that most GM's just don't fool around with.

If Bowden was asked point blank about the shoulder and he lied it's an incredibly distasteful move considering there are only 30 businesses to which he can deal with.

Not necessarily. I saw an episode of "this old house" where the seller rushed the buyer into buying (and foregoing inspections).. House was loaded with termites.
Sadly, a lot of people aren't completely honest when the stakes are high.

I agree, if Bowden blatantly lied about the shoulder, then that's wrong. But we'll never know the truth. Of course, as Reds fans, most are preinclined to believe Wayne and believe Bowden lied.

If Wayne never files a grievance though, that's pretty strong evidence that things weren't as they were originally spun.

MaineRed
08-17-2006, 07:36 AM
Not necessarily. I saw an episode of "this old house" where the seller rushed the buyer into buying (and foregoing inspections).. House was loaded with termites.
Sadly, a lot of people aren't completely honest when the stakes are high.

I agree, if Bowden blatantly lied about the shoulder, then that's wrong. But we'll never know the truth. Of course, as Reds fans, most are preinclined to believe Wayne and believe Bowden lied.

If Wayne never files a grievance though, that's pretty strong evidence that things weren't as they were originally spun.

Well we are not talking about shady real estate dealings. This is major league baseball. GMs are supposed to behave a certain way.

Let me guess, your going to say, "but this is Bowden."

Yup, this is Bowden, the guy you won't stop defending in two different threads on two different boards.

This IS Bowden. And for some reason you've turned into his apologist. If your doing so because we don't know what happened, then defend Wayne agianst people like yourself. If the issue is, "we just don't know what happened", you really shouldn't have much of an opinon on this particular aspect of the matter. But instead you are the lead voice on one side of the argument.

Odd.

REDREAD
08-17-2006, 07:57 PM
Well we are not talking about shady real estate dealings. This is major league baseball. GMs are supposed to behave a certain way.
.

No, my opinion is that Wayne did not do due dilligence. The fact that the medical records did not arrive 2 weeks after the trade proves that. The fact that the Reds were quoted as saying they were "surprised" Maj had tendonitis this year also proves that.

When people started quoting the Reds' spin on things, then I said "well never know for sure if Bowden lied, because we don't have a tape of the conversation".

I gave the real estate analogy, and someone said that no seller would ever lie about termites. So, I pulled a real world example where it happened. Doesn't mean that it's ok or ethical, just that it happens.

Wayne expecting to get compensation is ludicrous, IMO. Just like the poor guy that bought the termite infested home because he didn't get it inspected, Wayne failed to check over the new pitchers he was getting. Hopefully he learns his lesson.

I think a lot of people on this board find Bowden a convienent scapegoat to cover up the huge mistake that Wayne made. Wayne supposedly "fixed" the bullpen, yet we have Ryan Franklin pitching in the 9th today on what has was the most crucial game of the season.

BTW, I read today that the Texas Rangers have lost Brad Wilkerson for the season due to a shoulder injury. How come we haven't seen them whining about how Bowden sent them "damaged goods" for Soriano? Maybe because the Texas GM and medical doctor accept responsiblity for their decsions and don't go around looking for scapegoats.

westofyou
08-17-2006, 08:13 PM
How come we haven't seen them whining about how Bowden sent them "damaged goods" for Soriano?

Because they knew, everyone knew, it's been an ongoing issue with him... oh and he doesn't pitch with that shoulder now does he?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4993


The Rangers brought in Brad Wilkerson to hit. Sure, he's a solid leadoff guy when healthy and not a bad fielder, but the team plays in a hitters park and Wilkerson's a hitter. He's a much better hitter when his shoulder is healthy, something that hasn't happened much over the past few seasons. He is getting top-flight care from the Rangers staff, as Andrews protege Keith Meister is one of the top young doctors in the game. Wilkerson's recent power stroke shows that the treatment, cortisone injection, and work in the cage is finally paying off. While Wilkerson will have to deal with the problem going forward, his ability to play with it is looking better.

NDRed
08-17-2006, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=westofyou]Because they knew, everyone knew, it's been an ongoing issue with him... oh and he doesn't pitch with that shoulder now does he?

Similar to Majewski's. At least everyone that had him on their fantasy baseball team knew.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 02:26 AM
Because they knew, everyone knew, it's been an ongoing issue with him... oh and he doesn't pitch with that shoulder now does he?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4993

Well, everyone (except maybe the Reds' front office) knew that Maj had tendonitis this spring, and was throwing in pain throughout the year. Geez, if I knew that (and said it the day after the trade), what excuse do the Reds have?

What does it matter if Wilkerson is an OF instead of a pitcher? He's still toast for the year.

My point is, do we hear the Rangers whining about it? No. They understood they were taking a risk if it was common knowledge, as you said. How is that any different that what the Reds did? Both teams KNOWINGLY rolled the dice on health.

If the Reds were so concerned with the exacts specifics of Maj's medical treatments, they were stupid not to get all the records faxed over before they signed on the dotted line.

Really, it's an insult to Wayne's intelligence to assume he is as naive as some people here are painting him to be. He either knew Maj was hurt (despite the press quotes) or he's incompetent. Either way, he should take responsiblity instead of trying to blame someone else. FCB is right. Guys that climb their way to the top are usually really good at shifting the blame for their blunders on someone else.

BrooklynRedz
08-18-2006, 03:31 AM
Guys that climb their way to the top are usually really good at shifting the blame for their blunders on someone else.

Guys who climb their way to the top are good at a lot of things.

As far as this whole "Majewskigate" argument, it seems so subjective (on both sides) as to be pointless. After three years of working in (capital B) Baseball, the management and business of the industry is nothing like the real estate industry. As much as we would all like to believe the experience of our everyday worklife is somehow comparable to the Kearns/Lopez deal, it's just not true. Doesn't mean our jobs or careers are any less interesting or substantial, but baseball, the day-to-day paperwork, waiver wire, trade deadline, business within the front office is not comparable in any way, shape or form to any business other than baseball.

And within this world, from three years of experience, relies on all parties (especially within the sub-strata or deadline deals) to participate in good faith. That's why you don't see many deals reversed after the fact due to injuries. You can claim all you want that Krivsky was reckless with his due-diligence process, but in a deadline deal a GM can only go on the word of the GM with whom he is dealing because of the time constraints related to the deal. The fact that the cortisone shot wasn't even listed in the medical report they received would indicate negligence on the Nats' part.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 07:23 AM
Guys who climb their way to the top are good at a lot of things. .

I agree. I like just about everything else Wayne has done.



the industry is nothing like the real estate industry. .

Sorry, it was an analogy that apparently nobody got. Everyone seemed to take it literally. The point is that for a big decision, you make very sure everything is square.





You can claim all you want that Krivsky was reckless with his due-diligence process, but in a deadline deal a GM can only go on the word of the GM with whom he is dealing because of the time constraints related to the deal. The fact that the cortisone shot wasn't even listed in the medical report they received would indicate negligence on the Nats' part.

Ok, you lost me there. This wasn't a last minute deadline deal. Wasn't it done roughly two weeks before the deadline? Also, wasn't it reported that these negotiations were going on for a considerable amount of time? Is it normal to wait 2 weeks for medical records and then do nothing if they are "incomplete" (as Doc said). Is that standard protocol? If so, Wayne should demand better, and I have a feeling he will from now on.

I don't ever recall it saying that the cort shot was not listed on the written medical records. I thought it was just never brought to the Reds attention during the oral report they got from the Wash trainer and Bowden.

MaineRed
08-18-2006, 07:33 AM
If the Reds were so concerned with the exacts specifics of Maj's medical treatments, they were stupid not to get all the records faxed over before they sign

Yeah those incomplete medical records would of come in handy.

I don't really see Wayne trying to shift any blame. One day you can't stop saying the Reds are out to save face. Then other days you are claiming you are right and the Reds silence proves it. Depends which day it is and who you are discussing it with. Lately you have been playing the silence card. Now we go back to the Reds trying to shift blame card.

Wayne Krivsky does not seem like someone who would blindly blame another GM. If he is going to make any sort of comments like the ones he made, IMO he feels he was wronged.

If WK is a thug who looks to shift blame, why did it come to a sudden halt? If that is how he operates, why didn't it continue? Can't believe you guys believe Wayne is the type of guy who would have it in his mind that he would drop some bombs on Bowden and then never speak of it again to help divert attention.

He'd laugh at that assertion and say he certainly has better things to do with his time than think up those kind of schemes. At least that is my guess.

Jpup
08-20-2006, 06:18 AM
Anyone know how Majewski is doing? The bullpen could use him, if he is healthy again. He is eligible to come off the DL on Tuesday.

LoganBuck
08-20-2006, 01:56 PM
I wouldn't push it with Majewski. Give him all the time he needs. If he doesn't pitch for another 10 days I would be happy.

MaineRed
08-20-2006, 04:06 PM
Agreed. Give him the time he needs to be himself. If the Reds can hang on and then he comes back healthy, he could give the team a big lift.

flyer85
08-21-2006, 08:59 PM
Agreed. Give him the time he needs to be himself. If the Reds can hang on and then he comes back healthy, he could give the team a big lift.or he might not.

MaineRed
08-21-2006, 09:56 PM
or he might not.

Way to cheer on your team.

:thumbup:

redsmetz
08-21-2006, 09:59 PM
Way to cheer on your team.

:thumbup:

The naysaying around here sort of reminds me of the Beatles song "Getting Better". Each "Gettin' Better All The Time" in the lead vocal was followed by John Lennon's "It Can't Get No Worse." Up Down Black White Yes No and so on.

MaineRed
08-21-2006, 10:01 PM
Tell me about it.

What is it about a HEALTHY Gary Majewski that even comes close to indicating he couldn't help the Reds cause?

flyer85
08-21-2006, 10:06 PM
Way to cheer on your team.

:thumbup:just being a realist. D'Artangan ain't nothing special.

that 5th starter is heck of a lot more important than a 5th RHP in the pen.

westofyou
08-21-2006, 10:45 PM
or he might not.
True, then you could beat on Franklin more eh?

flyer85
08-21-2006, 11:10 PM
True, then you could beat on Franklin more eh?you mean the Gopher King. Who would ever have thought a guy with HR problems in Safeco might not translate well to GABP of Citizens

westofyou
08-21-2006, 11:12 PM
you mean the Gopher King. Who would ever have thought a guy with HR problems in Safeco might not translate well to GABP of Citizens
Then I guess GM would be a better choice, he has never given up many HR's as a reliever at any level.

Compared to the "Gopher King" I'd say that's an upgrade.

flyer85
08-21-2006, 11:15 PM
Compared to the "Gopher King" I'd say that's an upgrade.that kind of praise is on life support. The odds are Belisle, if given the chance, will pitch as well as or better than Majewski.

redsmetz
08-23-2006, 11:06 AM
From this morning's Enquirer. I like how Kivsky's going about this very methodicaly.


General manager Wayne Krivsky's standard answer about the Gary Majewski controversy lately has been: "We're having internal discussions."

But the Reds are doing more than simply talking. A team insider said lawyers are preparing a case to take the issue to grievance if necessary.

The Reds believe the Washington Nationals should have informed them about a cortisone shot Majewski received just days before the July 13 trade.

Majewski struggled from the time the Reds got him. He finally ended up going on the disabled list Aug. 7. He remains on the DL.

It wasn't until he went on the DL that the Reds found out about the cortisone shot and learned that Majewski had been on anti-inflammatories since March.

It isn't certain that the Reds will file a grievance against the Nationals and general manager Jim Bowden.

A more likely scenario is the club will take its case to Bowden in hopes of settling the matter. The Reds don't want to send Majewski back, but the Reds feel they're entitled to cash or another player as compensation.

If Bowden doesn't agree to settle, they'll move on with the grievance.

Bowden has steadfastly said the Nats did nothing wrong.

When the controversy arose, Bowden gave this statement to The Enquirer:

"When Wayne (Krivsky) and I were closing in on last month's trade, we deferred the medical histories of the eight players involved to our medical staffs, as each player was on the active roster of their respective clubs at that time. Our head athletic trainer answered all of the Reds' questions honestly and thoroughly with respect to all of our players involved in the transaction."

The Reds believe strongly that the Nationals' medical staff did not reveal enough about Majewski's condition.

The club has gone so far as to take depositions from people involved in the case.

BRM
08-23-2006, 11:19 AM
A more likely scenario is the club will take its case to Bowden in hopes of settling the matter. The Reds don't want to send Majewski back, but the Reds feel they're entitled to cash or another player as compensation.

If Bowden doesn't agree to settle, they'll move on with the grievance.

What are the odds that Bowden agrees to settle this with a player or cash? If he truly feels he did nothing wrong, why not make the Reds force the issue with the grievance?

westofyou
08-23-2006, 11:22 AM
The Reds believe the Washington Nationals should have informed them about a cortisone shot Majewski received just days before the July 13 trade.


So there it is, it's NOT the fact everyone could drudge up with google, nope it happened DAYS before the trade.

Seems like Bowden covered it up, once a liar, always a liar.

ochre
08-23-2006, 11:37 AM
From this morning's Enquirer. I like how Kivsky's going about this very methodicaly.

General manager Wayne Krivsky's standard answer about the Gary Majewski controversy lately has been: "We're having internal discussions."
Sounds like they've brought Farney into it. Look for a quick resolution now that he's involved.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2006, 11:40 AM
So there it is, it's NOT the fact everyone could drudge up with google, nope it happened DAYS before the trade.

Seems like Bowden covered it up, once a liar, always a liar.

Maybe Pokey Reese was right.....

redsmetz
08-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Maybe Pokey Reese was right.....

A guy I work with had a nephew who played for the Reds. He was saying this long before Pokey Reese.

RFS62
08-23-2006, 02:52 PM
So there it is, it's NOT the fact everyone could drudge up with google, nope it happened DAYS before the trade.

Seems like Bowden covered it up, once a liar, always a liar.



Wow, what a shock.

MaineRed
08-23-2006, 04:04 PM
Or maybe Wayne was the one that was making a bogus accusation?

I know Bowden is always presumed guilty and he's a convienent scapegoat, but it doesn't seem as if Wayne is pressing forward with a grievance.



No?

REDREAD
08-23-2006, 05:48 PM
So there it is, it's NOT the fact everyone could drudge up with google, nope it happened DAYS before the trade.

Seems like Bowden covered it up, once a liar, always a liar.

No, the thing the Reds should've known from google was that Maj had tendonitis early in the year, and has been pitching with a sore arm all year.

I don't think anyone claimed that the mystery cortizone shot was on google.

One statement by the Reds implied that the Reds had no idea that Maj had tendonitis or was anything but 100% healthy. That's the statement that made the Reds look suspicious or incompetent.

If Bowden deferred all health questions to the Wash med department, how does that make him a liar (unless he told them to cover it up, difficult to prove). I doubt Bowden sits down with the trainer every day and gets a summary of the treatments everyone goes under. I doubt Wayne knows every detail about Claussen, for example.

If Bowden is telling the truth that all medical questions were delegated to the clubs' med staff, how could he be lying?

I do agree that if Maj was on anti-inflammatories all year and the Wash staff denied it, that's bad. But it seems like the Reds medical staff dropped the ball on gathering information, unless Washington was ordered to hide stuff.

So now the Reds have to get someone on the Washington medical staff to say that Bowden told them to hide information if they want to prove Bowden lied or was part of a conspiracy.

REDREAD
08-23-2006, 05:52 PM
No?

If the Reds file a grievance, then I agree, the accusation holds a lot more weight. As of now, they haven't done it yet. Looks like they are in an exploratory phase.

When I wrote that, the Reds gave no indictation that they were going forward with the grievance. Looks like they still haven't made up their mind.

In spite of all this, they still want to keep Maj, so they must not feel as though he is that damaged. It's still possible that Wayne realizes he lost, so he wants some "compensation" from Washington to salvage his reputation.

westofyou
08-23-2006, 05:54 PM
It's still possible that Wayne realizes he lost, so he wants some "compensation" from Washington to salvage his reputation.

Yep, that's America for ya... you have to salvage your own reputation when you've been lied to and then played for as a fool in the press by the liar.

Kinda makes me teary eyed.... pass the tissues please.

IslandRed
08-23-2006, 06:11 PM
I have no evidence other than the known tendencies of the people involved and the statements I've read on the matter, so take my opinion for what it's worth, but here it is: Knowing Jim Bowden's reputation, and knowing the deal that was on the table, does anyone reasonably expect that he wouldn't do whatever it took to make the deal go through?

Now, I'm not declaring he told Washington medical people to lie. I'm suggesting that he impressed upon them the importance of making the deal happen. It's not hard to "not lie" without telling anything close to the real truth; it's a matter of being literal where necessary and omitting answers to questions not directly asked. Someone could have said with a straight face that the inflammation was gone. That's technically true, if he'd just had a cortisone shot. The stance was probably "don't mention the cortisone if they don't ask about cortisone." Most medical people wouldn't if they'd just been told by another medical pro that the shoulder was fine. Now, it's possible that there's something in there that Krivsky or our medical people could have asked differently that might have brought the truth out. I don't know. But if you're dealing with ethical people, you shouldn't have to ask specifically about every medical procedure known to man to get a straight answer.

The gamesmanship of making an injured pitcher someone else's problem has been a part of the game forever, I know. It doesn't mean we have to like it, and I hope Krivsky doesn't engage in it himself.

REDREAD
08-23-2006, 06:40 PM
Yep, that's America for ya... you have to salvage your own reputation when you've been lied to and then played for as a fool in the press by the liar.

Kinda makes me teary eyed.... pass the tissues please.

:laugh: Ok, but the article did say that Wayne was seeking a prospect or cash. That's not exactly a whole lot to ask for. I think Wayne wants an admission of guilt from Bowden more than anything. Do you not agree? I mean, the compensation (if Wayne gets it) isn't likely to have an impact on the future of the Reds. Also, consider that Maj was just tired and the Reds want to keep him. That seems to imply that overall the Reds are happy with the deal still.

Again, if Bowden deferred all the medical questions to his staff, he did not lie unless he directed them to cover things up.

REDREAD
08-23-2006, 06:45 PM
I have no evidence other than the known tendencies of the people involved .

Well, we know that Wayne has a tendency to take risks and trade for known injured people. He did it with Guarado and Schoweisis. He might've known that Cormier had a hip problem as well.

My guess is that the Reds knew Maj had some injury issues. I give them enough credit to know that Maj had tendonitis this year, and was on some treatment for a sore shoulder.

It's very possible somewhere in the chain of: Washington trainer->Reds trainer-> Doc Hollywood -> Wayne that some information got lost unintentionally.

The Reds were williing to pull the trigger, despite not getting the medical records two weeks later. That seems to imply they knew they were taking a risk, but pressed on anyhow.

Cedric
08-23-2006, 06:48 PM
Well, we know that Wayne has a tendency to take risks and trade for known injured people. He did it with Guarado and Schoweisis. He might've known that Cormier had a hip problem as well.

My guess is that the Reds knew Maj had some injury issues. I give them enough credit to know that Maj had tendonitis this year, and was on some treatment for a sore shoulder.

It's very possible somewhere in the chain of: Washington trainer->Reds trainer-> Doc Hollywood -> Wayne that some information got lost unintentionally.

The Reds were williing to pull the trigger, despite not getting the medical records two weeks later. That seems to imply they knew they were taking a risk, but pressed on anyhow.

They were taking a risk because they felt that if he hadn't had a shot in months, he was clearly doing better and would be fine for three months.

Jim Bowden is a liar. It's not shocking people are assuming he lied again.

letsgojunior
08-23-2006, 07:36 PM
I don't see how the timing of the cortisone shot is overly relevant. I think most on here assumed that it was administered pretty close to the trade.

The issue is really twofold I think. First, did the Reds ask the proper questions? Because if they didn't, based on Manfred's comments (no liability for bare nondisclosure), I really don't think the Reds have a grievance. Second, the cortisone shot was likely administered as a result of the wear and tear on Maj's arm which was reported as early as May (and can be found pretty quickly on Google).

So I think that even if the Reds weren't told anything at all, and the Nats said that everything was peachy, a tremendous red flag should have been raised based on the fact that Maj had arm troubles in May and that they were dealing with Bowden (a known peddler of injured players).

I really don't think this is going anywhere beyond maybe minimal damages, unless the Reds can convincingly establish that they asked the requisite question. MLB policy is still caveat emptor.