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reds44
08-08-2006, 10:56 PM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/


Shot across the bow

Wayne Krivsky was clearly uncomfortable earlier this afternoon facing a throng of reporters to discuss the aftermath of Gary Majewski's injury.

The bottom line is he isn't sure yet what the MLB procedure is for grievances in this case, but it sounds like the Reds are checking into it. The Reds clearly feel like information was withheld here, but Krivsky bent over backwards not to take a direct shot at Jim Bowden and the Nationals.

He said he called Bowden this morning but had not heard back from him as of 5 p.m. or so.

Krivsky then was asked whether he would stop dealing with Bowden in the future and the floodgates opened. I'll run the whole quote and let it speak for itself.

"This doesn't preclude doing future business," said Krivsky. "I don't like eliminating talent pools. I don't like eliminating teams. Hopefully, people feel like when they're dealing with us they're dealing straight-up. I want people to feel like they're being dealt with honestly. For me, Wayne Krivsky talking, your credibility is paramount not only with (the media) but with other teams and the fans and ownership. You lose your credibility, you're done in this business. You better treat people right and treat them the way you want to be treated, or you're not going to be as effective a general manager, farm director, scouting director, scout. To me, that's a pretty big thing right there."

Tommyjohn25
08-08-2006, 11:00 PM
I hope Bowden gets fired, again. And I hope that when it happens, Wayne Krivsky has something to do with it. Bowden is a joke, a lying, cheating, sniveling, arrogant joke.

cReds1
08-08-2006, 11:04 PM
OK, count me lost, doesn't each player have to do a physical before all the dots are signed? and if not, then wouldn't you think that the gaining team would get every information they could about the player and his injury or his sore shoulder? Why would Bowden lie? I don't get it.

How about the Reds medical staff? Hasn't many complained on here that they are horrible?

CrackerJack
08-08-2006, 11:05 PM
Daughtery, who was hosting Lance's show today on my way home from work said that Majewski told the Reds that the Nationals told him, to "keep it quiet" about his tendonitis and cortisone shots, before he was traded. Maybe this is common knowledge now, but apparently it isn't just Krivsky assuming this was the case - words came from Majewski.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:05 PM
He wasn't "injured." MRI revealed no damage.

This is a non-issue. Deader than a doornail.

KronoRed
08-08-2006, 11:07 PM
In a fist fight I'd bet on the guy in leather

Team Clark
08-08-2006, 11:07 PM
He wasn't "injured." MRI revealed no damage.

This is a non-issue. Deader than a doornail.

Casey's MRI showed "no damage" only to find out he needed MAJOR shoulder surgery. So I would not go so far as to say he is not "injured".

Although I do get your point. Not exactly the evidence I would want shown in court.

cReds1
08-08-2006, 11:07 PM
He wasn't "injured." MRI revealed no damage.

This is a non-issue. Deader than a doornail.

Yep! So what is all the hub bub about?

CrackerJack
08-08-2006, 11:10 PM
OK, count me lost, doesn't each player have to do a physical before all the dots are signed? and if not, then wouldn't you think that the gaining team would get every information they could about the player and his injury or his sore shoulder? Why would Bowden lie? I don't get it.

How about the Reds medical staff? Hasn't many complained on here that they are horrible?

Supposably an MRI wouldn't have revealed any damage and the cortisone shot will mask pain until it wears off. The whole situation is strange. Kremcheck works with both clubs and and offered this explanation - not sure why tendonitis, ecspecially if it's severe enough to shut someone down - wouldn't show up on an x-ray either. But maybe in his case it doesn't.

reds44
08-08-2006, 11:10 PM
Yep! So what is all the hub bub about?
If the Nationals told Majewski to keep quiet, then clearly something is and was wrong.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:11 PM
Casey's MRI showed "no damage" only to find out he needed MAJOR shoulder surgery. So I would not go so far as to say he is not "injured".


Then Casey's diagnosis changed. When the deal went down, he was healthy. He had a ton of work on his arm (which is something Krivsky should have already known), but there was no structural damage.

This Bowden "concealed" it stuff won't matter in terms of the Reds getting a "do-over" on the deal; it may damage Bowden's reputation, but it's not going to do anything to help the Reds ultimately.

cReds1
08-08-2006, 11:11 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5856684

Reds seek explanation on Majewski

CINCINNATI (AP) - Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky sought an explanation Tuesday for why Cincinnati was unaware that reliever Gary Majewski had a sore shoulder when the team acquired him in a trade with Washington.

The Reds didn't know that the right-hander had a cortisone injection in his shoulder before the All-Star break. Majewski was placed on the 15-day disabled list Monday after telling the team that his shoulder has bothered him since spring training.
A medical test found no serious injury. There's no telling how long he will be sidelined with what was diagnosed as a tired shoulder.

"I'm still trying to figure out what's what here," Krivsky said. "I'm glad we have Gary Majewski, and I'm glad he's not hurt seriously. I'm disappointed he's not active for us right now."

Krivsky left a telephone message Tuesday morning for Nationals general manager Jim Bowden. Majewski and reliever Bill Bray were the keys in an eight-player deal on July 13 that sent outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to Washington.

"I did call him, and I have not heard back," Krivsky said, before a game against St. Louis. "I just wanted to have a conversation."

In Washington, Bowden said he was surprised by the controversy in Cincinnati over the condition of Majewski's shoulder.

"I don't think they feel that way," Bowden said before a game against Florida. "If they did, I know one thing: Wayne Krivsky would call me directly.

"And our organization is always forthright honest in any transaction we make. We supply every documentation that's ever asked on every single player. I think that's just a media report. I don't think there's any truth to it, and the Reds have certainly not called us and they certainly would call us if there was an issue."

Later Tuesday night, Bowden issued a statement saying he was "disappointed" by Krivsky's statement that he had tried to reach him about the trade.

"I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade," Bowden's statement said. "It is also worth remembering that Gary pitched for us right up to the trade and has continued doing so for the Reds up until now."

Krivsky sidestepped questions about whether the team might file a grievance over the deal. Asked if a team should disclose during trade discussions that a player recently had a cortisone shot, Krivsky pursed his lips, thought for five seconds, then declined comment.

Krivsky wouldn't rule out future trade discussions with Bowden, who was the Reds' general manager for 10 years.

"I don't like eliminating teams," Krivsky said. "Hopefully people feel when they deal with us, they're dealing straight up. And I want people to feel like they're being dealt with honestly.

"For me, your credibility is paramount, not only with (the media) but with other teams and the fans and your ownership. You lose your credibility, you're done in this business."

George Foster
08-08-2006, 11:13 PM
He wasn't "injured." MRI revealed no damage.

This is a non-issue. Deader than a doornail.

If the cortizone shot was not told to the Reds, it is not a dead issue. If you are buying a "certified used car" form a dealership, and they don't tell you about serious wreck....a court will give you your money back, even though the car my run.

Team Clark
08-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Then Casey's diagnosis changed. When the deal went down, he was healthy. He had a ton of work on his arm (which is something Krivsky should have already known), but there was no structural damage.

This Bowden "concealed" it stuff won't matter in terms of the Reds getting a "do-over" on the deal; it may damage Bowden's reputation, but it's not going to do anything to help the Reds ultimately.

Ohh I agree with you. I have heard or seen nothing that I would take to the commissioners office with certainty. I just have a hard time using an MRI as my basis for saying a player is not injured. That's all. I do agree with you though. I even repped you for bringing this up.

cReds1
08-08-2006, 11:14 PM
If the Nationals told Majewski to keep quiet, then clearly something is and was wrong.

I just can't see a player keeping something like this quiet. What would he benefit from doing this?

CrackerJack
08-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Yep! So what is all the hub bub about?

I suppose it could be an issue if Majewski goes on record as saying the Nationals told him to zip it about his injury before a trade took place, which he supposably did. The only thing I can think of.

reds44
08-08-2006, 11:14 PM
I just can't see a player keeping something like this quiet. What would he benefit from doing this?
Going to a winning team?

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Ohh I agree with you. I have heard or seen nothing that I would take to the commissioners office with certainty. I just have a hard time using an MRI as my basis for saying a player is not injured. That's all. I do agree with you though. I even repped you for bringing this up.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. A clean MRI alone does not indicate "health," no doubt about it.

But evidence is something this situation is going to require. It just seems like hearsay is the only thing the Reds have going for them.

kaldaniels
08-08-2006, 11:16 PM
This thing is getting national media play...arguably the most attention the Reds have got all year...if the media goes after this story it will get interesting.

KronoRed
08-08-2006, 11:17 PM
If it comes down to the player saying he was told to keep it quiet and the Nats saying they never said that, I'd bet the Team gets the benefit of the doubt

reds44
08-08-2006, 11:19 PM
If it comes down to the player saying he was told to keep it quiet and the Nats saying they never said that, I'd bet the Team gets the benefit of the doubt
Yeah we are going to need more then that to get anything back. Now if we could get some medical records of him having shots and things like that before coming here we could have something.

Phhhl
08-08-2006, 11:22 PM
I think the Reds have a good case. Especially with what Kremchek has said on the matter. I don't understand how anyone can say the case is closed when they don't know what might be forthcoming. Injuries do not always involve structural damage, and to deal a pitcher in supposed "good faith" while withholding health information is at least unethical. At most, it could be punishable by the league.

It is enough to certainly spoil whatever was left of Jim Bowden's integrity. The Reds need to fight it as far as they can and cast the spotlight on that guy.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2006, 11:24 PM
It is enough to certainly spoil whatever was left of Jim Bowden's integrity. The Reds need to fight it as far as they can and cast the spotlight on that guy.

I agree completely with this. This could be the final nail in Bowden's career. The new owners, Lerner et al, I'm sure aren't amused by this kind of attention.

I just think that Bud's going to be awfully reluctant to set a "backsies" precedent with a situation as vague as this.

reds44
08-08-2006, 11:26 PM
I agree completely with this. This could be the final nail in Bowden's career. The new owners, Lerner et al, I'm sure aren't amused by this kind of attention.

I just think that Bud's going to be awfully reluctant to set a "backsies" precedent with a situation as vague as this.
I agree with you here. The Reds better have some real good evidence that he was hurt before he came to Cincy, and that the Nats knew he was hurt. Majewski saying the Nationals told him to keep it quiet won't cut it.

Reds Fanatic
08-08-2006, 11:28 PM
Here is another article about this situation. Sounds like Krivsky called Bowden to talk about this even though Bowden claims no one called him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2543805


CINCINNATI -- Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky sought an explanation Tuesday for why Cincinnati was unaware that reliever Gary Majewski had a sore shoulder when the team acquired him in a trade with Washington.

The Reds didn't know that the right-hander had a cortisone injection in his shoulder before the All-Star break. Majewski was placed on the 15-day disabled list Monday after telling the team that his shoulder has bothered him since spring training.

A medical test found no serious injury. There's no telling how long he will be sidelined with what was diagnosed as a tired shoulder.

"I'm still trying to figure out what's what here," Krivsky said. "I'm glad we have Gary Majewski, and I'm glad he's not hurt seriously. I'm disappointed he's not active for us right now."

Krivsky left a telephone message Tuesday morning for Nationals general manager Jim Bowden. Majewski and reliever Bill Bray were the keys in an eight-player deal on July 13 that sent outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to Washington.

"I did call him, and I have not heard back," Krivsky said. "I just wanted to have a conversation."

In Washington, Bowden said he was surprised by the controversy in Cincinnati over the condition of Majewski's shoulder.

"I don't think they feel that way," Bowden said before a game against Florida. "If they did, I know one thing: Wayne Krivsky would call me directly.

"And our organization is always forthright honest in any transaction we make. We supply every documentation that's ever asked on every single player. I think that's just a media report. I don't think there's any truth to it, and the Reds have certainly not called us and they certainly would call us if there was an issue," he said.

Krivsky sidestepped questions about whether the team might file a grievance over the deal. Asked if a team should disclose during trade discussions that a player recently had a cortisone shot, Krivsky pursed his lips, thought for five seconds and then declined comment.

Krivsky wouldn't rule out future trade discussions with Bowden, who was the Reds' general manager for 10 years.

"I don't like eliminating teams," Krivsky said. "Hopefully people feel when they deal with us, they're dealing straight up. And I want people to feel like they're being dealt with honestly.

"For me, your credibility is paramount, not only with [the media] but with other teams and the fans and your ownership. You lose your credibility, you're done in this business," he said.

Reds4Life
08-08-2006, 11:40 PM
I agree completely with this. This could be the final nail in Bowden's career. The new owners, Lerner et al, I'm sure aren't amused by this kind of attention.

Perhaps this would be enough to convince JimBo to make this right without the involvement of MLB? I could see Bowden quietly sending a prospect to the Reds in exchange for them dropping this issue and not pushing it to anything official.

IslandRed
08-09-2006, 12:10 AM
Supposably an MRI wouldn't have revealed any damage and the cortisone shot will mask pain until it wears off. The whole situation is strange. Kremcheck works with both clubs and and offered this explanation - not sure why tendonitis, ecspecially if it's severe enough to shut someone down - wouldn't show up on an x-ray either. But maybe in his case it doesn't.

As I understand it -- insert standard disclaimer about not being a doctor or pharmacist -- you can have a severely inflamed joint without having so-called structural damage. Cortisone is not a painkiller, exactly, it's a weapons-grade anti-inflammatory. It makes the problem go away for awhile. So even if he was examined at the time of the trade, would there have been anything to see? But if the problem is an overworked joint, without rest the inflammation is going to come right back when the shot wears off.

So yeah, the whole deal as I see it is whether the pre-ASB cortisone shot was disclosed. I'm not holding my breath for any MLB action, though.

Mainspark
08-09-2006, 12:34 AM
“As we say in the clubhouse, you know that man is lying when his lips are moving.” — Calvin "Pokey" Reese, 2001.

"In every trade we make, our medical and training staff are always thorough, complete and give full disclosure on information on any player involved in the transaction as requested by the other club involved in the transaction per major league rules." — Jim Bowden, 2006.

Spitball
08-09-2006, 12:42 AM
I just can't see a player keeping something like this quiet. What would he benefit from doing this?

Oh, I can. As an athlete, you are conditioned to compete. I remember hiding a serious shoulder injury one time and a serious ankle injury another. You convince yourself you can compete until proven otherwise... and sometimes that takes some serious convincing and failure.

Mainspark
08-09-2006, 12:58 AM
Jimbo's latest press release:
"It was disappointing to read Wayne Krivsky's remarks this evening about the trade of Gary Majewski. I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade. It is also worth remembering that Gary pitched for us right up to the trade and has continued doing so for the Reds up until now. I was pleased to learn this evening from media reports that there is in fact no injury to Gary."

pedro
08-09-2006, 01:00 AM
Jimbo's latest press release:
"It was disappointing to read Wayne Krivsky's remarks this evening about the trade of Gary Majewski. I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade. It is also worth remembering that Gary pitched for us right up to the trade and has continued doing so for the Reds up until now. I was pleased to learn this evening from media reports that there is in fact no injury to Gary."

bowden sure does speak with a forked tongue.

TeamBoone
08-09-2006, 01:21 AM
Hmmm, I guess their telephone records could be obtained, right?

Wheelhouse
08-09-2006, 01:49 AM
He wasn't "injured." MRI revealed no damage.

This is a non-issue. Deader than a doornail.

Wrong. MRIs don't reveal every injury. In addition, if a player is being medicated, whether there is physical damage or not, and that information is purposefully concealed, it is grounds for a grievance.

Bottom line is, the league doesn't have to look at it like evidence in a murder trial--the burden of proof needed to hang Bowden is not huge. If the league feels that the Nats knowingly hid medical facts about Majewski from the Reds, the league can do whatever it wants.

So nope, it's not a non-issue.

reds44
08-09-2006, 02:02 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/...sp&c_id=cin



CINCINNATI -- Was relief pitcher Gary Majewski damaged goods when he came from the Nationals to the Reds? Currently, it's a question without an answer.
Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky and the club were still sorting through that issue and left their options open Tuesday following revelations about Majewski's right shoulder injury that surfaced Monday.

The Reds could end up filing a grievance with Major League Baseball, claiming the Nationals knew they sent an injured player when Majewski came over in an eight-player trade on July 13.

"I don't know the answer to that one," Krivsky said Tuesday afternoon. "I'm going to lay low and see what happens. It's not really a subject I want to talk about too much. I don't know the protocol. Probably, other general managers don't also. I'm right there in unchartered area."

Majewski, 26, was placed on the 15-day disabled list Monday with what was termed by doctors as a "tired shoulder." He revealed he had soreness all season and took a cortisone shot with Washington shortly before the deal was made.

Krivsky said that Washington's medical staff did not inform the Reds that Majewski had a cortisone injection during trade negotiations. Cincinnati medical director Tim Kremchek, also an advisor for the Nationals, said the Reds were working off the medical information provided by Washington.

"All I know is when we did the trade, we did our due diligence," Kremchek said. "We asked the same questions we've been asking teams for years. The guy showed up and said he was fine. We took it at face value."

Majewski never found success since the trade. He posted a 12.54 ERA in his 11 games with Cincinnati. The right-hander was charged with at least one run in seven of his Reds appearances. Only three of 11 first batters he faced were retired.

Krivsky wanted to clear up the questions directly with Nationals general manager Jim Bowden and said he left a phone message on mid-Tuesday morning. It had not been returned as of 5 p.m. ET.

"I just wanted to have a conversation," Krivsky said.

But according to Bowden, who was the Reds' GM from 1992-2003, he had not heard from the Reds. He also said the Nationals were forthcoming with all medical information.

"We supply every documentation that's ever asked on every single player," Bowden told reporters late Tuesday afternoon in Washington. "I think that's just a media report. I don't think there's any truth to it. The Reds certainly have not called us and they certainly would call us if there was an issue.

"We all know he's thrown 11 times since the trade, and we all saw him throw 94 before the trade. So I don't know where that comes from. Certainly we've not heard it from the Reds. We would hear from the Reds if there was a problem. They know there's not a problem. They have all the documentation -- doctor's reports, training reports on any player in the transaction. If there's a problem, they would call us. They wouldn't go through the media."

Krivsky was asked if he'd do business with Bowden in the future, but he also addressed the issue of integrity in his response.

"Yeah, this doesn't preclude any future business," Krivsky said. "I don't like eliminating talent pools. I don't like eliminating teams. Hopefully, people feel like when they deal with us, they're dealing straight up. I want people to feel like they're being dealt with honestly.

"For me, Wayne Krivsky talking, your credibility is paramount. Not only with [reporters] but other teams, the fans, the ownership. If you lose your credibility, you're done in this business. You better treat people right and treat them the way you want to be treated."


Mark Sheldon is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art.../308080037/1071


Krivsky: No red flags
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky would not say on Tuesday if the club will file a grievance over the Washington Nationals’ failure to disclose that relief pitcher Gary Majewski, who has been sent to the disabled list, took a cortisone shot for tendinitis in his shoulder just days before being traded to Cincinnati.

“I don’t know,” Krivsky said. “We’re trying to lay low and see what develops. It’s not a subject I want to talk a lot about.”

But the club clearly thinks it was wronged. Krivsky said he left a message for Washington general manager Jim Bowden Tuesday morning. He said he had not heard back as of 5 p.m. Tuesday.


Krivsky said he was not sure what the exact rules governing a grievance are, and he didn’t know what the recourse would be if there was a grievance and the Reds won.

“I’m in uncharted territory,” he said.

Krivsky said he’d work with Bowden again, then added:

“Hopefully when people are dealing with us, they feel like we’re being straight up. I want people to feel like they’re being dealt with honestly. For me, Wayne Krivsky, creditability is paramount.

He continued:

“(If) you lose your credibility, you’re done in this business. You better treat them right and the way you want to be treated.”

The Reds’ medical director, Dr. Tim Kremchek, said on Tuesday that the team would have taken a closer look at Majewski’s health before completing the July 13 eight-player deal that sent Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to the Nationals had they known Majewski was taking cortisone shots.

The 26-year-old Majewski has struggled for the Reds. His ERA with the team is 12.54. He gave up 21 hits in 9 1/3 innings.

Kremchek added that an MRI would not have revealed the tendinitis in Majewski’s shoulder, and that he thinks the deal likely would have gone through.

"His shoulder looks clean," Kremchek said. "It would have been (Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky's) call, but I imagine we would have made the trade."

Said Krivsky: “I’m glad we have Gary Majewski and he’s not hurt seriously. I’m disappointed he’s not active.”

The Reds had no reason to have Majewski examined. He pitched for Washington right up to the trade.

“I didn’t have any cause for concern based on the information we had,” Krivsky said. “We felt like we did everything we needed to do before we made the trade.”

Kremchek said he has never given a player from another club a physical before completing a trade.

"The way it works is the GM talks to the GM," Kremchek said. "If there's any issues, medical talks to medical."

In Majewski's case, Reds trainer Mark Mann talked to the Nationals trainer.

"(The Nationals) didn't allude to anything," Kremchek said.

Kremchek, who is a consultant for the Nationals, said his relationship with that team may end over this incident.

Bowden did not return a phone call from the Enquirer on Tuesday.

In an e-mail sent to The Washington Post regarding Majewski’s placement on the disabled list, Bowden said, "In every trade we make, our medical and training staff are always thorough, complete and give full disclosure on information on any player involved in the transaction as requested by the other club involved in the transaction per major league rules."

And this interesting nuggest comes from the boys over at Redleg nation. It was in an article by John Fay earlier today, that has now been edited.


[Kremcheck] said Majewski’s medical records did not arrive in Cincinnati until Aug. 1, the day after the trade deadline.

“And even then, they weren’t complete,” Kremchek said.



http://redlegnation.com/


Btw, I changed the name of the thread. Figured I might as well make it the official thread for this.

Wheelhouse
08-09-2006, 03:19 AM
I just can't see a player keeping something like this quiet. What would he benefit from doing this?

Being traded to a contending club and away from a manager with whom you don't get along.

Wheelhouse
08-09-2006, 03:24 AM
Yeah we are going to need more then that to get anything back. Now if we could get some medical records of him having shots and things like that before coming here we could have something.

What do you mean? If Majewski gets wheeled in front of the Commisioner and he asks him if he was asked to conceal his treatment, you don't think Selig would act if the answer were "yes." ? Evidence is not needed. The Commisioner has TOTAL power and if he smells a rat, can break out the poison. Again, this is not a legal issue. It's an industry making sure it's businesses play it straight. It's all "in-house" as it were.

MartyFan
08-09-2006, 03:47 AM
I honestly don't think there is anything too much that can be done on this one...the biggest thing I can say is that when doing a deal with Bowden or any team he is affiliated with you completely rake him over the coals...hopefully this will also inspire other GM's to put his future deals under further scrutiny.

Think about what this will do to help a potential rivalry with the Nationals?

Think about what sort of fire this team will have in their belly's when playing the Nats...especially guys like Dunn who were tight with Kearns.

KronoRed
08-09-2006, 03:50 AM
Wait..if the records didn't arrive till Aug 1st doesn't that fall on the Reds for accepting the deal without records to back up the Nats word?

Oh..and Bowden's statement smells a little funny.

Nugget
08-09-2006, 04:21 AM
Obviously the REDS didn't ask the right question: "Did you inject Magic with cortisone on [insert date and time here]". Any other question would have been answered with a no. ;)

oregonred
08-09-2006, 04:30 AM
Obviously the REDS didn't ask the right question: "Did you inject Magic with cortisone on [insert date and time here]". Any other question would have been answered with a no. ;)

Jimbo would deny ever injecting Mr. Johnson with a cortisone shot

"Not only have I never met the Magic Man, I can assure you that I have no knowledge of him ever getting a cortisone shot while with the Lak -- errs, err, I mean the Nationals...

buckeyenut
08-09-2006, 06:59 AM
Oh, I can. As an athlete, you are conditioned to compete. I remember hiding a serious shoulder injury one time and a serious ankle injury another. You convince yourself you can compete until proven otherwise... and sometimes that takes some serious convincing and failure.

I now have a different view of this. I have recently injured my shoulder, likely a rotator cuff tear, and I can now understand how someone would try to pitch through it. I can also see why they try rest first in many cases and then the DL when it doesn't work.

In some cases, the pain is not THAT bad, but it is enough to be constantly annoying and painful and if you were trying to pitch or play ball, it would obviously get worse. But I completely understand now why someone would just push through and not say anything. Because I have and am not dealing with anything nearly as important as a playoff hunt.

GoReds
08-09-2006, 07:25 AM
I wonder if Krivsky is working Jimbo behind the scenes. He's "let slip" the idea that a grievance may be filed. Perhaps he's trying to put Jimbo into a position to make the trade right by giving back Majewski and getting another guy in return (Rauch?).

Krivsky may or may not have a case with MLB, but I don't think Bowden wants to see Krivsky file a grievance, either - particularly since his current and future jobs may be on the line.

redsmetz
08-09-2006, 07:46 AM
This Bowden "concealed" it stuff won't matter in terms of the Reds getting a "do-over" on the deal; it may damage Bowden's reputation, but it's not going to do anything to help the Reds ultimately.

I'm not sure I want a "do-over". I like Mejewski long term if he can get healthy. I'm not sure what, if any, sanctions could be had should it be found that the Nats were deceptive (and there's not enough info at this point to know that).

LINEDRIVER
08-09-2006, 08:27 AM
Perhaps Krivsky could say, "JimBo, you take Clayton back and we'll forget this whole mess".

redsmetz
08-09-2006, 08:34 AM
The Washington Post's story on this today.


CINCINNATI, Aug. 8 -- One day after placing reliever Gary Majewski on the disabled list with a sore shoulder, Cincinnati Reds General Manager Wayne Krivsky continued to explore possible recourse for the fact Majewski apparently was injured at the time of the July 13 trade with the Washington Nationals that brought him to Cincinnati.

"I don't know the answer to that one," Krivsky said when asked if the Reds are considering filing a grievance with the league office, asking for compensation.

Krivsky said he left a message Tuesday morning with Nationals GM Jim Bowden, but had not heard back from him as of early Tuesday evening.

"I did call him," he said. "I just wanted to have a conversation."

During the Nationals' home game Tuesday night against Florida, the team released a statement from Bowden:

"It was disappointing to read Wayne Krivsky's remarks this evening about the trade of Gary Majewski. I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade. It is also worth remembering that Gary pitched for us right up to the trade and has continued doing so for the Reds up until now. I was pleased to learn this evening from media reports that there is in fact no injury to Gary."

Majewski, 26, was placed on the disabled list Monday after complaining of acute shoulder soreness. An MRI exam on his shoulder showed no structural damage, and the Reds are calling his condition "fatigue."

On Monday, Majewski said he was treated for tendinitis with the Nationals, consisting of three treatments of anti-inflammatory medicine, plus a cortisone shot just before the all-star break. He was traded to the Reds just after the break as part of an eight-player deal that brought outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to the Nationals.

Krivsky said it was the first he had heard of Majewski's injury treatment. Asked if the Reds had done their due diligence in checking out Majewski's soundness before the trade, he said: "We felt we did everything we needed to do to make the right decision. . . . We didn't have any cause for concern, based on the information we had, to go any further" in investigating.

There is precedent for a team being awarded compensation if MLB finds a team hid a player's injury before a trade.

However, Rob Manfred, MLB's executive vice president, said the "general" policy on trades between teams is "caveat emptor" -- buyer beware. Krivsky said he had not spoken with Manfred as of Tuesday evening.

"It's generally the buyer's responsibility to find out" about a player's soundness, Manfred said. "The exception is if the buyer asks the right questions and is not told the truth."

On Tuesday, Krivsky turned a question about whether he would continue to do business with Bowden -- he said yes -- into a statement on credibility:

"Hopefully, people feel we're dealing with them straight-up, and I want people to think they're being dealt with honestly. For me . . . your credibility is paramount. You lose credibility, you're done in this business. You'd better treat people right and treat them the way you want to be treated. To me, that's a pretty big thing right there."

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 08:58 AM
If the Nationals told Majewski to keep quiet, then clearly something is and was wrong.

But the Reds didn't interview Maj as part of the decision making process for the trade. Therefore, Maj being told to keep quiet is irrelevant.

Wheelhouse
08-09-2006, 09:19 AM
I'm beginning to think Kremchek's position is on the line. He's a fine surgeon, but he's made some real gaffes otherwise. The "Doc Holywood" moniker is good fun, but in a way, it's kind of saying that he's a little bit of a goof, at least for a doctor.

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 09:24 AM
However, Rob Manfred, MLB's executive vice president, said the "general" policy on trades between teams is "caveat emptor" -- buyer beware. Krivsky said he had not spoken with Manfred as of Tuesday evening.

What I've been saying.

Marc D
08-09-2006, 09:31 AM
While I certainly wouldn't put it past Bowden to have traded a player he knew to be less than 100%, I wouldn't be suprised to find out this is as simple as the no injury/over used scenario.

If the latter is the case then this is simply Krivsky not looking at a stat sheet under the IP column before the trade, which BTW I recall several RZ posters bringing up instantly when the trade went down. Again, if this scenario is actually true then this whole thing could very well be a serious CYA campaign by Kriv.

I know some on here freak out when anything less than flattery is used to describe Krivsky or Narron, but to be objective you at least have to acknowledge the fact this trade is looking worse and worse all the time. The possability that Maj could have been damaged goods and that Bowden was dealing less than honorably is the type of life raft anyone would try to use in Krivskys spot. It doesn't make him a bad person or a bad GM, but honestly in any line of work, if you screw up royally and it becomes public knowledge, your going to do damage control if the opportunity presents its self.

All in all, I'd lean toward the Bowden was less than forthcoming angle for now, but I won't be suprised if we find out Majewski was just overused and Krivsky missed it. If I had to put odds to it I'd say 55-45.

Johnny Footstool
08-09-2006, 09:45 AM
Majewski has been pitching with pain for quite some time. It was no secret -- he missed a few games because of it earlier in the year, and it was reported in the media.

Most of the responsibility falls on the Reds for this -- they should have realized he had been pitching with pain and asked direct questions about his arm. If they did and Bowden lied, then they need to prove it in order to gain some compensation. I don't really think they can do that.

All that will come of this is that Reds fans will remember why they hate Bowden and will take the opportunity to call him a few names.

And Krivsky will possibly solidify a reputation as an easy mark.

registerthis
08-09-2006, 09:47 AM
What I've been saying.

I guess what this comes down to is whether Krivsky was lied to or not. Caveat emptor doesn't protect a merchant who lies about the condition of the goods being sold. However, a buyer who merely makes assumptions is not protected--they bear a responsibility of due diligence in the transaction.

What this looks like to me--as I said yesterday--was that the Reds simply didn't do their homework. Yes, Bowden's a slimeball. Sure, he might have told Maj to keep it down in there re: his health. But it also sounds like the Reds didn't ask the pertinent questions, and in fact proceeded with the trade before they had received Maj's medical records. That's just stupid, particularly with a trade of this magnitude.

Moosie52
08-09-2006, 09:49 AM
You know, half the sports fans in this country probably think it's fine if Bowden lied about this. So what? You screwed another team, hats off to you. If you don't cheat, you don't want to win enough. Maybe Wayne should just find another trade partner from now on.

Johnny Footstool
08-09-2006, 09:54 AM
You know, half the sports fans in this country probably think it's fine if Bowden lied about this. So what? You screwed another team, hats off to you. If you don't cheat, you don't want to win enough. Maybe Wayne should just find another trade partner from now on.

I'll bet the other GMs are salivating for a chance to deal with Krivsky.

RedsManRick
08-09-2006, 10:02 AM
I'll bet the other GMs are salivating for a chance to deal with Krivsky.

My thoughts exactly. For all the statements of Bowden's lack of credibility, perhaps it's also a case of a rookie GM who wanted to get the deal done and wasn't 100% diligent on the medicals. Likely fact is somewhere in between. In any case, if I was Kriv and somebody approached me in the offseason about a pitcher they'd like to deal, I'd be asking some very straight forward questions.

Marc D
08-09-2006, 10:14 AM
You know, half the sports fans in this country probably think it's fine if Bowden lied about this. So what? You screwed another team, hats off to you. If you don't cheat, you don't want to win enough. Maybe Wayne should just find another trade partner from now on.

What if its just as simple as Wayne not asking the right questions or doing his due dilligence? You have proof that Bowden lied? I don't know one way or the other but I am keeping an open mind before I go nuts on the hyperbole.

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 10:16 AM
I guess what this comes down to is whether Krivsky was lied to or not. Caveat emptor doesn't protect a merchant who lies about the condition of the goods being sold..

I understand that. But absent a corroborating voice who heard Bowden tell Majewski to keep his trap shut, this is a he said, he said situation, and the tiebreaker goes to the default setting, caveat emptor.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:21 AM
My thoughts exactly. For all the statements of Bowden's lack of credibility, perhaps it's also a case of a rookie GM who wanted to get the deal done and wasn't 100% diligent on the medicals. Likely fact is somewhere in between. In any case, if I was Kriv and somebody approached me in the offseason about a pitcher they'd like to deal, I'd be asking some very straight forward questions.

It's Tommy Lasorda GMing all over again. I bet Bowden drools whenever a new GM gets into office. Bowden knows how to work over the newbies.

Wayne needs to learn from this and just get past it. The root of the problem isn't Maj's tired shoulder. The root of the problem is that Wayne got extremely desparate and Bowden took advantage of it. There's no injury on Maj, so this really looks like sour grapes from the Reds. If there was an injury, then maybe the Reds' story holds water, but the Reds have had their own guy examine Maj in depth and have just said he is tired.

I know a lot of people are hoping this trade taints Bowden's rep, but I really doubt it. It just makes the Reds look like whiners, because there is no injury.

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 10:23 AM
It just makes the Reds look like whiners, because there is no injury.

Worse. It makes them look like suckers.

registerthis
08-09-2006, 10:23 AM
I understand that. But absent a corroborating voice who heard Bowden tell Majewski to keep his trap shut, this is a he said, he said situation, and the tiebreaker goes to the default setting, caveat emptor.

...and I think I pretty much said that. I don't think this is going anywhere.

letsgojunior
08-09-2006, 10:34 AM
So, what Manfred's saying is that there is no liability for bare nondisclosure, i.e. if the Reds simply took Majewski without ever asking if he had any injury problems, if he had recovered from his May bout of tendonitis, Washington wouldn't be liable even if they were aware Majewski had a significant injury.

It all comes down to the questions the Reds asked the Nationals before the trade, in that case. Hurting the Reds case significantly is that Majewski posted a 3.58 or so ERA in his games with the Nats prior to the trade, pitched right up until he was traded, and didn't really fall off the wagon until after the trade.

IslandRed
08-09-2006, 10:39 AM
I am keeping an open mind before I go nuts on the hyperbole.

Good point. Truth is, we don't know exactly what questions were asked and what the answers were. Maybe they're just using different dictionaries.

registerthis
08-09-2006, 10:43 AM
It all comes down to the questions the Reds asked the Nationals before the trade, in that case. Hurting the Reds case significantly is that Majewski posted a 3.58 or so ERA in his games with the Nats prior to the trade, pitched right up until he was traded, and didn't really fall off the wagon until after the trade.

Yep. None of that helps, to be sure. Also doesn't help that there's no smoking gun of evidence that Bowden duped Krivsky here.

IslandRed
08-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Also doesn't help that there's no smoking gun of evidence that Bowden duped Krivsky here.

Errors of omission are always more difficult to substantiate than errors of commission.

Krusty
08-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Who wants to bet when Krivsky will make his next deal with Bowden?

Kc61
08-09-2006, 10:58 AM
If Majewski merely had tendinitis earlier in the season, I don't see why there would be any issue. Even if there was still some soreness, don't see a problem from the Nats viewpoint.

But if Majewski needed a cortisone shot at the All-Star Break, just a couple of weeks before the trade, I don't see how the Nats could fail to tell that to the Reds. And I don't think the Reds were obliged to ask whether a supposedly healthy pitcher recently had a cortisone shot. Why would they expect that he did?

I think Bowden's comments -- that Majic threw 94 mph and has pitched 11 times since the trade -- are ridiculous. Nobody is saying the guy is an invalid, only that he has a sore arm. I have a lot of problems with the way the Nationals handled this, based upon what I've read so far.

Obviously, it is a lesson to Krivsky and the Reds FO for future dealings. But the Nats shouldn't get a free pass on this one.

Puffy
08-09-2006, 11:00 AM
Who wants to bet when Krivsky will make his next deal with Bowden?

Who cares?

After the first trade between the two all Reds fans should hope Bowden never deals with the Reds again.

letsgojunior
08-09-2006, 11:51 AM
Errors of omission are always more difficult to substantiate than errors of commission.

What Manfred is saying though is that, according to MLB policy, Bowden had to have been affirmatively asked a "certain question" by the Reds. Precisely what question is not clear, but probably something along the lines of "has he had any medical treatments or procedures within the past (enter period of time)?"

So I think the main issue now is what kinds of questions the Reds asked. Because, based on my reading of Manfred's analysis, if they simply didn't ask if he had been treated or if he still had lingering tendonitis issues, I think it's pretty much a non-issue.

reds44
08-09-2006, 12:24 PM
The Washington press is saying that information about the cortisone shot wasn't offered by Bowden or any Nats official.

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 12:25 PM
The Washington press is saying that information about the cortisone shot wasn't offered by Bowden or any Nats official.

I don't doubt that. Was he or any other Washington official asked about the medical procedure?

BRM
08-09-2006, 12:27 PM
I don't doubt that. Was he or any other Washington official asked about the medical procedure?

They don't have to disclose that if they weren't asked, right?

reds44
08-09-2006, 12:28 PM
I don't doubt that. Was he or any other Washington official asked about the medical procedure?
I'm sure the Reds didn't ask if he had a cortisone shot but you have to figure they asked if he was having any injury issues this year. If the Reds did and the Nationals didn't tell them about the shot, wouldn't the be withholding information?

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 12:29 PM
I'm sure the Reds didn't ask if he had a cortisone shot but you have to figure they asked if he was having any injury issues this year. If the Reds did and the Nationals didn't tell them about the shot, wouldn't the be withholding information?

I suspect it would be withholding information. Particularly if the records sent to Cincy were incomplete.

backbencher
08-09-2006, 12:31 PM
I don't doubt that. Was he or any other Washington official asked about the medical procedure?

I suspect that the question asked was something like "is there anything unusual in his medical records?" I also would think both sides would have an argument in response, particularly if Kremchek's quote about the medical records showing up after the deadline is true.

I see the Reds getting a low-A ball non-prospect out of this, just to make it go away.

vaticanplum
08-09-2006, 12:31 PM
I haven't read through this whole thing, but my take on the intial facts is that the Reds have no leg to stand on and they probably could have even done a little more homework here. But it certainly seems like in some way Bowden did a dirty thing here. Even dirtier when you consider that he probably knew the Reds had no leg to stand on and couldn't retaliate. What a dipstick.

reds44
08-09-2006, 12:33 PM
I see the Reds getting a low-A ball non-prospect out of this, just to make it go away.
Why would the Reds do that? If the Reds feal that Bowden really did without hold information, I would want to expose him for all he is. I don't know what compensation you could get back, but I suspect it to be more then some roster fodder in A ball.

paulrichjr
08-09-2006, 12:37 PM
Who cares?

After the first trade between the two all Reds fans should hope Bowden never deals with the Reds again.

Not to rehash the trade over and over and over again but I think Krivs made a horrible trade and now realizes it and is trying to save face. I think he is a much better GM than Bowden or DanO but he simply made a few rookie mistakes and is trying to shift some of the blame when in reality he should have been talking to someone else when Bowden first told him the price and then he should have checked medical records thoroughly before closing the deal.

All of this being said, I think Bowden looks really bad in all this. He had better call Krivs up quick and make a deal to satisfy both parties before Kasten decides that this publicity isn't worth it and leather pants needs to go back to ESPN.

reds44
08-09-2006, 12:38 PM
Not to rehash the trade over and over and over again but I think Krivs made a horrible trade and now realizes it and is trying to save face. I think he is a much better GM than Bowden or DanO but he simply made a few rookie mistakes and is trying to shift some of the blame when in reality he should have been talking to someone else when Bowden first told him the price and then he should have checked medical records thoroughly before closing the deal.

All of this being said, I think Bowden looks really bad in all this. He had better call Krivs up quick and make a deal to satisfy both parties before Kasten decides that this publicity isn't worth it and leather pants needs to go back to ESPN.
I really doubt that is what Krivsky is doing.

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 12:40 PM
I really doubt that is what Krivsky is doing.

I don't doubt it for a second. Knowing what I know about people who spend their lives climbing to the top in their field, I'd say this is SOP--shift blame, and attempt to sweep it away.

Which is why I'm hoping that Wayne's mea culpa to the fans is a Homer Bailey visit. :thumbup:

Redny
08-09-2006, 12:42 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060809/SPT04/308090031

Bowden, Krivsky talk
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Reds general manager Wayne Krivksy said Wednesday morning that he spoke with Washington Nationals GM Jim Bowden late Tuesday night to discuss the Gary Majewski trade that has led to hard feelings between the teams.

"He called during the game," Krivsky said.

Krivsky did not provide details about the conversation, but said the matter is not resolved.

"We had a conversation," Krivsky said. "I expressed my concerns."

There is a possibility that the Reds will file a grievance in the matter. The Reds have not done so yet.

The Reds are angry that they were not told Majewski had a cortisone injection just days before the July 13 trade. The Reds acquired the relief pitcher as part of an eight-player deal with the Nationals that in part sent Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to Washington.

Bowden issued a statement Tuesday night saying he was "disappointed" by Krivsky's statement that Bowden had not returned a Tuesday phone call from Krivsky by game time.

"I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade," Bowden said in the statement.

Bowden has not returned calls from the Enquirer.

The crux of the matter is this: Were the Reds were informed of the cortisone injection before finalizing the trade for Majewski?

When asked Wednesday morning if Bowden said the Reds had been informed, Krivsky said: "I can't talk about that. But there are some semantics involved."

Grievances are unusual in such cases. MLB's policy in trades is "buyer beware."

"Usually clubs are able to come to agreements on their own," MLB spokesman Patrick Courtney said.

That apparently did not happen during the course of Tuesday’s conversation between Krivsky and Bowden. When asked if the matter was closed, Krivsky said:
"I'm not sure. We'll see."

Majewski, a 26-year-old right-hander, has pitched poorly since he came to the Reds. His ERA with the team is 12.54.

Majewski said Monday that he has been suffering from tendinitis since March.
That was news to Reds officials, who say the team did not know about the cortisone shot until Monday.

Had the Reds known about Majewski's tendinitis, Reds medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek said Tuesday, they would have taken a closer look at the pitcher's health before completing the deal. Kremchek also said that the club did not receive all of Majewski's medical infromation until Aug. 1.

acredsfan
08-09-2006, 12:51 PM
Wow, Jimbo claims Krivsky didn't call him? Who really believes that one? Jimbo's credibility is shot. If Jimbo keeps trying to bring Wayne down with him this will be a long, drug out matter. Not only is Jimbo denying that he witheld information after Majewski says he was told to keep quiet about the cortisone shot, he is callling Wayne a liar by saying he didn't call him. What an idiot, sometimes you are better off saying nothing at all.

backbencher
08-09-2006, 12:55 PM
Why would the Reds do that? If the Reds feal that Bowden really did without hold information, I would want to expose him for all he is. I don't know what compensation you could get back, but I suspect it to be more then some roster fodder in A ball.

Because Majewski's sore arm was well-documented and because the Reds could have asked the right questions (or demanded the medical records in hand before the deal). The Reds' case is marginal.

Bowden will give in because it serves his interest to make a grievance go away.

gonelong
08-09-2006, 01:02 PM
Majewski said Monday that he has been suffering from tendinitis since March.
That was news to Reds officials ...


Inexcusable. Completely inexcusable.

I found out Majewski had tendinitis in May as a result of a simple Google search. Maybe the Reds need to sign up for a fantasy baseball league so they can have access to this type of information.

GL

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 01:04 PM
Inexcusable. Completely inexcusable.

I found out Majewski had tendinitis in May as a result of a simple Google search. Maybe the Reds need to sign up for a fantasy baseball league so they can have access to this type of information.

GL

Agree.

RBA
08-09-2006, 01:24 PM
I'm waiting for the Reds to sign Goofy, because their management/scouting is Mickey Mouse.

TeamBoone
08-09-2006, 01:27 PM
[B]And this interesting nuggest comes from the boys over at Redleg nation. It was in an article by John Fay earlier today, that has now been edited.

I was looking for the Kremchek article last night and it was gone. I found that interesting as well. I have never known the Enquirer to actually remove an article. Wonder why?

TeamBoone
08-09-2006, 01:31 PM
They don't have to disclose that if they weren't asked, right?

Irregardless of what went down at the time of the trade, this information SHOULD have been documented in GM's medical record. Apparently, it wasn't.

dabvu2498
08-09-2006, 01:37 PM
I was looking for the Kremchek article last night and it was gone. I found that interesting as well. I have never known the Enquirer to actually remove an article. Wonder why?
It's still there:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/SPT04/308080037/1071

RBA
08-09-2006, 01:48 PM
I'm waiting for the Reds to sign Goofy, because their management/scouting is Mickey Mouse.


Uh, Oh. They signed Todd Hollandsworth-Less. Close enough. Reds, I wasn't serious. :help:

letsgojunior
08-09-2006, 02:26 PM
Because Majewski's sore arm was well-documented and because the Reds could have asked the right questions (or demanded the medical records in hand before the deal). The Reds' case is marginal.

Bowden will give in because it serves his interest to make a grievance go away.

excellent post.

Like gonelong, I found out about Majewski's arm problems as a result of a simple internet search last night. Pretty inexcusable that this was apparently news to the Reds.

IMO the Reds have a poor case here - not only is the SOP caveat emptor, but the fact that Majewski was injured earlier this season was well-documented public knowledge. Additionally, Majewski was pitching fine right up until the trade, and on a regular basis. I think the only thing that could really help them at this point is if they could prove they asked the Nats if Majewski had any medical procedures right before the trade. Just my opinion, but I doubt that was asked based on the fact that Kremcheck is scrambling and offering up such lines as "we asked all the normal questions."

The only thing I think will come of this is that Bowden will potentially fall a little on the slime pole. I doubt the Reds will get anything back from this, cash or personnel wise.

Jpup
08-09-2006, 02:55 PM
What I've been saying.

if the Reds asked the right question and were lied to, that is not the case. I think this is what happenned here considering all parties involved.

Matt700wlw
08-09-2006, 03:06 PM
OK, count me lost, doesn't each player have to do a physical before all the dots are signed?


At this point in the season, physicals are not common because teams want to get these guys traded and in uniform as fast as possible.

Free Agency period it is.

Matt700wlw
08-09-2006, 03:18 PM
It is funny though, the only Bowden quote in the original article yesterday, was an email to the Washington Post (or whatever)...nothing in person, and he wouldn't return calls to John Fay.


He's a coward.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 03:41 PM
I see the Reds getting a low-A ball non-prospect out of this, just to make it go away.

I doubt it. Wayne has gone to the press and called Bowden a liar before even seeing the MRI and trying to talk to Bowden.

If Bowden gives the Reds an A ball player, he's admiting guilt.

There's no way Bowden is going to give the Reds squat unless King Bud steps in and forces him to (unlikely).

If Wayne had kept this all behind closed doors, maybe Bowden would've given the Reds something. Again, not likely, but possible. Now there's zero chance of Bowden doing anything nice for the Reds.

Put yourself in Bowden's shoes. Why would you give the Reds anything after Wayne calls you a liar and dishonest in the National press?

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 03:44 PM
I doubt it. Wayne has gone to the press and called Bowden a liar before even seeing the MRI and trying to talk to Bowden.

If Bowden gives the Reds an A ball player, he's admiting guilt.

There's no way Bowden is going to give the Reds squat unless King Bud steps in and forces him to (unlikely).

If Wayne had kept this all behind closed doors, maybe Bowden would've given the Reds something. Again, not likely, but possible. Now there's zero chance of Bowden doing anything nice for the Reds.

Put yourself in Bowden's shoes. Why would you give the Reds anything after Wayne calls you a liar and dishonest in the National press?


I agree with pretty much all of this, except the part about Bowden giving the Reds something had Krivsky kept it behind closed doors. He's got one mission and one mission only: stick it to the Reds. He's going to ride this thing down regardless of the outcome. And I think both GMs come out looking like yahoos.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 03:49 PM
Wow, Jimbo claims Krivsky didn't call him? Who really believes that one? Jimbo's credibility is shot. .

Or maybe Bowden just didn't get the message.

We do know that when Bowden saw it in the press, he initiated the call to Wayne. It's not like Bowden is dodging him.

For all we know, Bowden's secretary was going through his voice mail, and there was 1000 calls from the press (thanks to Wayne stirring them up), and Wayne's message got deleted while the secretary was cleaning out the spam.
It happens.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 03:52 PM
Inexcusable. Completely inexcusable.

I found out Majewski had tendinitis in May as a result of a simple Google search. Maybe the Reds need to sign up for a fantasy baseball league so they can have access to this type of information.

GL

Tell me about it. If it's true that the Reds had no clue Maj had been hurt at all this year, that's even worse. It shows they are totally clueless.
It also strengthens the case that they didn't come close to performing due dilligence.

Hey Wayne, just so you know, Mark Prior has had some arm injuries. Be aware of that if you want to trade for him. :laugh:

Matt700wlw
08-09-2006, 03:52 PM
Word is Krivsky and Jimbo talked today.


Nothing was resolved.

backbencher
08-09-2006, 03:53 PM
Put yourself in Bowden's shoes. Why would you give the Reds anything after Wayne calls you a liar and dishonest in the National press?

Because grievances are messy, involve the press, and interfere with future job prospects.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 03:55 PM
It is funny though, the only Bowden quote in the original article yesterday, was an email to the Washington Post (or whatever)...nothing in person, and he wouldn't return calls to John Fay.


He's a coward.

Why would he want to do any favors to the Cincinnati press, who are obviously biased against him? No matter what he says to them, it will be twisted against him.

Slider
08-09-2006, 03:55 PM
Why would any GM assume anything when it comes to dealing with Bowden?
Given his MO and history...who in the game doesn't know to CYA if you plan to deal with leather pants on anything.

Krivsky may be a new GM, but he's not new to baseball. If he didn't know that dealing with Bowden meant assuming significant risk...

Seriously, would any of you deal with Bowden without a complete physical and every test known to mankind? Hes a crook, a liar, a cheat...yea even a dirty rotten scoundrel...and Wayne should have known better.

I have been a fan of this front office...especially the competitive stance they have taken. For the first time in a long time, I'm becoming passionate about the Reds chances. I know they aren't good...but at least Castellini and company are trying.

BUT, Wayne if you're having buyers remorse, and you want to keep Majewski, for crying out loud, keep your mouth shut. What's the expected outcome here? It's damaging the credibility of WK and company because if he feels screwed, he should have known it going in with Bowden and if he's just unhappy with the deal after the fact...well, who wants to deal with a whiner?

I don't excuse Bowden at all in this...but I think Krivsky should have known going in that this was a risk. If he's unhappy with the deal and thinks information was withheld...he should just be a man about it and either keep his mouth shut or tell Bowden that he won't deal with him again.

Wayne...it was a bad deal...put it behind you and move on...

Buyer beware...

acredsfan
08-09-2006, 03:57 PM
Or maybe Bowden just didn't get the message.

We do know that when Bowden saw it in the press, he initiated the call to Wayne. It's not like Bowden is dodging him.

For all we know, Bowden's secretary was going through his voice mail, and there was 1000 calls from the press (thanks to Wayne stirring them up), and Wayne's message got deleted while the secretary was cleaning out the spam.
It happens.If you are being quoted in a newspaper, you'd better make dang sure that you don't have a message from him, Jimbo said there was no message from krivsky if you read the article, so that is calling krivsky a liar, regardless of whether his secretary or whoever may have deleted it on accident in the very slim chance that situation would happen. Jim has no excuses, i'm willing to believe Wayne before I'd trust Jimbo. His credibility was shot long before this. If you want to believe that Jimbo was telling the truth, go ahead, but i'm not.

RFS62
08-09-2006, 04:00 PM
It is funny though, the only Bowden quote in the original article yesterday, was an email to the Washington Post (or whatever)...nothing in person, and he wouldn't return calls to John Fay.


He's a coward.



What? The guy who fired Tony Perez with a telephone machine message is a coward?

Who knew?

acredsfan
08-09-2006, 04:09 PM
Why would any GM assume anything when it comes to dealing with Bowden?
Given his MO and history...who in the game doesn't know to CYA if you plan to deal with leather pants on anything.

Krivsky may be a new GM, but he's not new to baseball. If he didn't know that dealing with Bowden meant assuming significant risk...

Seriously, would any of you deal with Bowden without a complete physical and every test known to mankind? Hes a crook, a liar, a cheat...yea even a dirty rotten scoundrel...and Wayne should have known better.

I have been a fan of this front office...especially the competitive stance they have taken. For the first time in a long time, I'm becoming passionate about the Reds chances. I know they aren't good...but at least Castellini and company are trying.

BUT, Wayne if you're having buyers remorse, and you want to keep Majewski, for crying out loud, keep your mouth shut. What's the expected outcome here? It's damaging the credibility of WK and company because if he feels screwed, he should have known it going in with Bowden and if he's just unhappy with the deal after the fact...well, who wants to deal with a whiner?

I don't excuse Bowden at all in this...but I think Krivsky should have known going in that this was a risk. If he's unhappy with the deal and thinks information was withheld...he should just be a man about it and either keep his mouth shut or tell Bowden that he won't deal with him again.

Wayne...it was a bad deal...put it behind you and move on...

Buyer beware...The point isn't whether it should be "Buyer beware" or not, this is a matter of neglegence and a cover up by the Nationals. Buyer Beware would be if someone wanted to trade for Mark Prior, they know he's had injury problems but yet they are willing to take a chance on him being healthy and give up quite a bit of talent. That is buyer beware. This is a matter of ethics, if MLB is ok with a team dealing in such a manner then fine, but as a fan i don't like this at all. It doesn't matter who I am a fan of, this shouldn't happen in a league that has such a huge following and depends on fans to keep it going. If baseball won't allow gambling in the sport for fear of games being fixed, why should GMs be allowed to hide information to fix trades? Even if he did have tendinitis early in the year, if the medical report from the Nationals leads Krivsky to believe that Majewski is healthy, then the Reds should be able to trust that there is no current injury PERIOD.

WVRedsFan
08-09-2006, 04:16 PM
I get the strong feeling from the posts on this subject that most Red Zoners are just as upset with Krivsky as they are Bowden. Am I correct? If so, Krivsky's stock has dropped 100 points since May and that's got to be a record.

And if it's dropped with Reds fans, you can image how the new owner feels about this. Apprently he doesn't pusssyfoot around.

I place most of this on scummy Bowden, the worst of the worst, but Wayne should have known better. First off, it was a lousy trade if everyone was healthy and now it looks like a player giveaway, regardless of your personal feelings about Lopez and Kearns. If Krivsky's this easy, I don't know what we can expect in the coming months and years. And you can bet that's what BCast is thinking also. Not good for Wayne Krivsky at all. He should have known about Bowden's intregity. He has none.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 04:19 PM
I agree with pretty much all of this, except the part about Bowden giving the Reds something had Krivsky kept it behind closed doors. He's got one mission and one mission only: stick it to the Reds. He's going to ride this thing down regardless of the outcome. And I think both GMs come out looking like yahoos.

You are right. I guess my main point was that if Wayne did this behind closed doors, maybe he has a 2% chance of getting something from Bowden. Now he has a 0% chance. Bowden is going to dig in his heals and fight this.

Bowden kept on attempting trades that he knew Allen would never approve. He's a stubborn guy. No way is Bowden going to admit wrongdoing by giving the Reds any kind of compensation.

The bizzare thing is that Maj isn't seriously injured and the Reds still want to keep him (I think). So why raise the stink?

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 04:21 PM
First off, it was a lousy trade if everyone was healthy and now it looks like a player giveaway, regardless of your personal feelings about Lopez and Kearns.

Thanks for speaking for all of us.

Lopez and Kearns aren't anything special and there are people here who don't believe what you just said.

Sorry.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 04:22 PM
Because grievances are messy, involve the press, and interfere with future job prospects.

Not if Bowden digs in and wins, which he probably will.

Do you think Bowden cares if he gets embarassed? More than anything, Bowden loves a chance to win at anything, regardless of the costs.

Recall the story of the general managers meetings when they had some kind of team building exercise. There was an arm wrestling competition, and Bowden grabbed John Hart's arm with his second hand and pulled it down. He claimed he did it because the rules didn't forbid it. He embarassed himself there in front of his own peers over a stupid team building contest. Do you think he cares about the messiness of fighting a grievance, especially if he thinks he can win? Of course not.

KronoRed
08-09-2006, 04:26 PM
I get the strong feeling from the posts on this subject that most Red Zoners are just as upset with Krivsky as they are Bowden. Am I correct? If so, Krivsky's stock has dropped 100 points since May and that's got to be a record.

:wave:

Wayne should have done every little bit of homework when dealing with Jimbo, Jimbo has traded hurt guys before, would seem logical to be on the look out for it when it's a trade with the team that fired him 2 years back.

pedro
08-09-2006, 04:29 PM
If the medical reports provided the Reds don't mention the cortisone shots then IMO this is going to be more serious than you think RR.

oregonred
08-09-2006, 04:39 PM
You are right. I guess my main point was that if Wayne did this behind closed doors, maybe he has a 2% chance of getting something from Bowden. Now he has a 0% chance. Bowden is going to dig in his heals and fight this.

Bowden kept on attempting trades that he knew Allen would never approve. He's a stubborn guy. No way is Bowden going to admit wrongdoing by giving the Reds any kind of compensation.

The bizzare thing is that Maj isn't seriously injured and the Reds still want to keep him (I think). So why raise the stink?

I think Kremcheck going public blew this thing up in the media before Krivsky/Bowden could get it resolved behing the scenes. Like I said about 50 posts up -- Krivsky is PO'd at two guys...

I also agree with FCB that right now both Jimbo and Krivsky look like yahoos -- largely due to Doc Hollywood going public so soon. I do think this hurts Bowden a lot more with his credibility given his snakeoil reputation and as much as he'd like to stick it to the Reds he has incentive to make it go away -- and fast...

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 05:06 PM
If you are being quoted in a newspaper, you'd better make dang sure that you don't have a message from him, Jimbo said there was no message from krivsky if you read the article, so that is calling krivsky a liar, .

I didn't take it that way. Didn't Wayne say he left a message at around 10 am and as of 5 pm, Bowden hadn't called back? I don't know the exact timeline, but it was something like that.

Bowden saying "I got no message" could've mean he hadn't checked his messages all day. Geez, does Wayne return every call he gets in an hour, especially when his voicemail is flooded with spam from reporters?

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 05:08 PM
If the medical reports provided the Reds don't mention the cortisone shots then IMO this is going to be more serious than you think RR.

I agree. But that hasn't been established either way.

Matt700wlw
08-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Word is they spoke today and nothing has been resolved.

westofyou
08-09-2006, 05:12 PM
Bowden saying "I got no message" could've mean he hadn't checked his messages all day.

Just the kind of GM a team needs.

Maybe he was helping the President with that whole Mideast thing and that's why he missed the call?

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 05:14 PM
Just the kind of GM a team needs.

Maybe he was helping the President with that whole Mideast thing and that's why he missed the call?

Bowden's the parasite within the parasite.

Slider
08-09-2006, 06:23 PM
:wave:

Wayne should have done every little bit of homework when dealing with Jimbo, Jimbo has traded hurt guys before, would seem logical to be on the look out for it when it's a trade with the team that fired him 2 years back.

Krono...that was exactly my point.

:beerme:

Slider
08-09-2006, 06:25 PM
The point isn't whether it should be "Buyer beware" or not, this is a matter of neglegence and a cover up by the Nationals.


ACReds...I respect your POV and get what you're trying to say but, I meant buyers (Krivsky) beware of dealing with Bowden regardless of who is in the deal.

I guess it's a question of expectations...but if I were Wayne, I'd expect Bowden to lie to me so I would take appropriate precautions...in fact, I'd be surprised if he didn't lie to me...it's his MO

:evil:

oregonred
08-09-2006, 06:31 PM
Jimbo's motto:

"It's not a lie, if you believe it's true"

George Costanza

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 06:37 PM
Just the kind of GM a team needs.

Maybe he was helping the President with that whole Mideast thing and that's why he missed the call?

Well, the Reds never returned Bowden's calls during the entire DanO era, and now you expect a couple hour turn around?

How many articles about this said "We tried to contact Bowden but got no reply?" The guy's inbox and voicemail was full of spam, thanks to the fuss Wayne stirred up.

The hillarous thing is that people love to hate Bowden. Even though the Reds' own doctor said there was no injury, that Maj was just fatigued.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 06:42 PM
The guy's inbox and voicemail was full of spam, thanks to the fuss Wayne stirred up.


link?

Falls City Beer
08-09-2006, 06:43 PM
The hillarous thing is that people love to hate Bowden. Even though the Reds' own doctor said there was no injury, that Maj was just fatigued.

Guilt by reputation. You earn it, I guess?

pedro
08-09-2006, 06:45 PM
link?


He doesn't have to provide a link. He is Jim Bowden.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 06:46 PM
I'm starting to think he is his personal secretary. He seems to be very informed on what is in Jimbo's inbox.

westofyou
08-09-2006, 06:52 PM
The hillarous thing is that people love to hate Bowden.
You fiddle while Rome burns and that's your legacy, what's amazing to me is the lengths you're going to make excuses for him in the face of his less then stellar reputation.

He's hardly worth defending.

RFS62
08-09-2006, 06:58 PM
A leopard doesn't change his spots.

He showed me everything I need to know about his character with the way he dealt with Doggie.

Not saying a word about his ability as a GM.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 06:59 PM
You fiddle while Rome burns and that's your legacy, what's amazing to me is the lengths you're going to make excuses for him in the face of his less then stellar reputation.

He's hardly worth defending.

Yeah, but we know Doc Hollywood is a liar and Bowden's message machine is now broken thanks to Wayne stirring up the media.

You have to feel for the guy. He'll probably have to change his cellphone number to get away from all the paparazi by the time this is over.

:rolleyes:

TeamBoone
08-09-2006, 07:16 PM
It's still there:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/SPT04/308080037/1071

No, it's not. The article at that link is now about Krivsky... the other one was titled "Kremchek Sounds Off".

Redny
08-09-2006, 08:11 PM
It seems odd that I have heard not a word from anyone (not even a caller) on either the pregame radio show or on the TV broadcast about this issue. Anything new from the WLW broadcast?

pedro
08-09-2006, 08:15 PM
It seems odd that I have heard not a word from anyone (not even a caller) on either the pregame radio show or on the TV broadcast about this issue. Anything new from the WLW broadcast?

not really. hal said that Krivsky spoke with Jimbo and didn't really get the answers that he wanted.

Redny
08-09-2006, 08:18 PM
not really. hal said that Krivsky spoke with Jimbo and didn't really get the answers that he wanted.

Did Hal say that during the usual 2nd inning appearance?

Redmachine2003
08-09-2006, 08:20 PM
If I am not mistaken most shoulder injuries don't show up on MRI's. They can't tell unless they cut into the shoulder to see what is wrong with it.

Slider
08-09-2006, 08:36 PM
If Wayne wants to get back at Jimbo he should just post his cell phone number on Redszone...:evil:

pedro
08-09-2006, 08:36 PM
Did Hal say that during the usual 2nd inning appearance?


yes.

I get the feeling that Krivsky may have asked Bowden 1) is Majewski still suffering inflammation from his tendonitis and 2) is he still being treated for his tendonitis and that Bowden answered no to both of them because Majewski's inflammation had been controlled by the cortisone shot and the nationals weren't going to do anything else about it.

Hal didn't say as much but that's how I envision it going down anyway.

reds44
08-09-2006, 08:48 PM
As the GMs turn

You probably know by now that Wayne Krivsky and Jim Bowden finally spoke last night, when Bowden decided to call Krivsky back after claiming he hadn't received any messages from him. I asked Krivsky today if anything was resolved.

"Resolved?" said Krivsky. "I don’t know about resolved. I (said) some things I wanted him to hear, and then he countered and I countered and so forth and so on."

So there was no conclusion reached about whether or not the proper medical information was supplied by the Nationals?

"He feels like he complied and I think we feel there are some gaps," said Krivsky.

And what about the press release put out by the Nationals Tuesday night that essentially accused Krivsky of lying when he said he'd left Bowden a message earlier in the day?

"You guys can do with that what you want," said Krivsky.

So he had no reaction?

"To the press release? No. Whatever I say it’s going to look like I’m responding. I’m just ready to leave it alone and we’ll let the whole thing run its course."

Krivsky said he doesn't know if the team will pursue a grievance. It wouldn't appear the Reds would have much recourse as far as receiving compensation.

"That shouldn’t necessarily mean we’re not going to do anything, but I don’t want to lead you down one way or the other," said Krivsky. "What do they say? It’s still a fluid situation

-Lancaster's blog

acredsfan
08-09-2006, 09:32 PM
Krivsky is taking the high road on this one, it's obvious that Jimbo is going to continue to lie, I'd be absolutely infuriated if I was Krivsky. Its astonishing that Jimbo has a job as a GM of any team. There was so much bad blood from his time here in Cincinnati, shouldn't that be a big enough sign?

acredsfan
08-09-2006, 09:38 PM
ACReds...I respect your POV and get what you're trying to say but, I meant buyers (Krivsky) beware of dealing with Bowden regardless of who is in the deal.

I guess it's a question of expectations...but if I were Wayne, I'd expect Bowden to lie to me so I would take appropriate precautions...in fact, I'd be surprised if he didn't lie to me...it's his MO

:evil:Well, I see your point, but its still no excuse. Don't just write this off as "well he has always been a liar." Jimbo should not have a job in MLB. He isn't only making himself look bad, he's making the Nationals organization lose credibility. He'll make that team a joke just like he did the reds.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:15 PM
link?

Check out the numerous articles that said "We tried to reach Bowden for comment".

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:18 PM
Krivsky is taking the high road on this one,

They're both taking the low road. I know it seems like I am defending Bowden, but it's not black and white.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 10:25 PM
Check out the numerous articles that said "We tried to reach Bowden for comment".

Numberous? What, 4 or 5?

"You have 14 messages."

"Message One, Hi Jim, this is Bill from the AP"

DELETE

"Message Two, Jim, this is John Fay."

DELETE

"Message Three, Jim, Hal McCoy."

DELETE

"Message Four, Jim, Wayne. I think we should talk."

Hmmm, I should probably get back to him.

"Message Five, Jim, John Kruk."

DELETE.

Not real hard to sift thru messages and find the important ones while totally disregarding the media who you are not going to call back.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:29 PM
Numberous? What, 4 or 5?
.

I'm not taking the bait this time and getting this thread locked. When you calm down a bit, I'll talk more with you.

If you think only 4 or 5 reporters called to get a sound bite from Bowden about this controversy (which is a national story), I don't know what to say.

I'll also point out that none of Bowden's calls were ever returned in the DanO era, and Bowden initiated the call today to Wayne.

Have a good evening.

Cedric
08-09-2006, 10:35 PM
They're both taking the low road. I know it seems like I am defending Bowden, but it's not black and white.

Jim Bowden has absolutely worn out the low road. The guy has no integrity or class. If this was any other GM nobody would be making a big deal out of this. With it being Bowden most people realize something shady probably went down.

RFS62
08-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Jim Bowden has absolutely worn out the low road. The guy has no integrity or class. If this was any other GM nobody would be making a big deal out of this. With it being Bowden most people realize something shady probably went down.



The low road?

Jim Bowden's route makes the Big Dig look like a suspension bridge.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 10:41 PM
If you think only 4 or 5 reporters called to get a sound bite from Bowden about this controversy (which is a national story), I don't know what to say.


And if you think all these national reporters have Jim Bowden's phone number, I don't know what else to say.

Have a good evening? I will, the Reds won.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:42 PM
No, it's not. The article at that link is now about Krivsky... the other one was titled "Kremchek Sounds Off".

I bet the Reds asked for that article to be pulled. I'm sure they were upset that Doc H took it upon himself to be the unauthrorized spokesman for the Reds. Or perhaps everything Doc said wasn't completely accurate ;)

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:44 PM
And if you think all these national reporters have Jim Bowden's phone number, I don't know what else to say.
.

If they don't have Bowden's number, they can leave a message with the Nationals, as Wayne did :)

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:46 PM
The low road?

Jim Bowden's route makes the Big Dig look like a suspension bridge.

True, Bowden has a seedy history.

But Wayne and Doc H aren't exactly handling this with class either. They made some pretty strong accusations before they even had Maj examined.

Also, I find it quiet funny that there wasn't 1% of this level of outrage with Bowden with the Brantely-Young trade.

I guess when it benefits the home team, it's ok.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 10:49 PM
If they don't have Bowden's number, they can leave a message with the Nationals, as Wayne did :)

And if they are leaving messages with the team, then they are not clogging up Bowden's voice mail which I thought was your whole point?

I thought your story was that Bowden couldn't find WKs message because of all the spam from reporters?

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 10:56 PM
And if they are leaving messages with the team, then they are not clogging up Bowden's voice mail which I thought was your whole point?

I thought your story was that Bowden couldn't find WKs message because of all the spam from reporters?

Maybe Bowden was playing golf that afternoon or had an appointment with his kinky hairdresser.

Look, I don't know why Bowden didn't get the message. I was offering possible explanations. And yes, maybe he did get the message and put it off returning it.

I don't see why you are making a federal case out of it. I've had days that are so busy that I don't check my voicemail, and I'm sure Bowden has more meetings and subordinates to manage than I do.

My point is that it's not unreasonable that maybe Bowden didn't get the message in the small window Wayne gave him.

I'm done talking about Bowden not returning the call. You can get the last word in.

MaineRed
08-09-2006, 11:05 PM
A dederal case out of something involving the Reds?

Why you would never do that, would you REDREAD?

Anyone can read thru this thread and see that it is you who is willing to talk (argue) with anyone willing to bring up the Bowden, WK, phone message angle.

I asked you for a link to back up some of the things you were claiming.

You get challenged on something and then don't have answers to back up your claims and you get personal to get out of it. Real nice.

Stick to the Reds instead of telling me to have a good night or telling me you are going to ignore me or telling me to communicate with you only in PMs.

You can give your opinion all you want. But start throwing around facts and expect to be asked to prove it.

REDREAD
08-09-2006, 11:26 PM
You get challenged on something and then don't have answers to back up your claims and you get personal to get out of it. Real nice.

.

Check your PMs, I'll address it there.

smith288
08-09-2006, 11:47 PM
Odd...im reading many believe the Reds didnt do their due dilgence in regards to Majewski though you can do a search to find he had a "tired shoulder".

I may have missed it but didnt the Reds say if thats all it was the trade still probably would have went though.

The thing that bothers me is that due dilgence is now asking about such things like a friggin cortizone shot....i mean, why didnt the Reds also ask if he has aids or cancer while their at it?

Some info should be offered in good faith and a cortizone shot is one of those. I think the issue is there, not the point that its only a tired shoulder.

Wheelhouse
08-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Consider this: if MLB calls in Frank Robinson to ask him about Majewskis condition, Robinson won't lie for anybody, and Jimbo is in deep trouble....

Falls City Beer
08-10-2006, 12:08 AM
Time to lawyer up!! :evil:

REDREAD
08-10-2006, 12:17 AM
Consider this: if MLB calls in Frank Robinson to ask him about Majewskis condition, Robinson won't lie for anybody, and Jimbo is in deep trouble....

I think the central question is did Bowden answer all of Wayne's questions truthfully. Unless Robinson was in the room, I'm not sure he can help or hurt the case. No one is saying the corizone shot didn't happen.

Wayne seems to be claiming Bowden hid the shot. Bowden claims to have answered all questions and sent all med records. If the shot is in the med records, I'm not sure Wayne has a case at all. Logically, to me that seems to be the key. If the shot is missing in the records, Wayne has a case.

If Wayne just asked "How's the shoulder?" and Bowden said "fine", I don't think that's a problem, because Maj was pitching at the trade and afterwards.

cincinnati chili
08-10-2006, 12:39 AM
Inexcusable. Completely inexcusable.

I found out Majewski had tendinitis in May as a result of a simple Google search. Maybe the Reds need to sign up for a fantasy baseball league so they can have access to this type of information.

GL

Yeah. Here's the link for those interested. Scroll to middle of article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050701046.html

I will say that just because the Enquirer tells us that the above article was "news to the Reds" doesn't mean it's true.

Bowden's antics have always frustrated me. But this trade, even with a healthy Jesus-is-Majewski, was so ill-conceived that Krivsky almost deserves this.

NDRed
08-10-2006, 12:57 AM
I know Bowden is held in low regards around here, especially after fleecing the Reds in this trade- injured players or not; but come on:

*Wayne leaves a message and it is not returned within his time frame (a matter of hours) and he goes to the reporters with his issue-classy.

*The injury history of Majewskis was available with a simple goggle search, Reds fans questioned it immediatly, and it is a shock to the Major League General Manager trading for the player??? And almost all of you are defending this?????

-Dr. K says the trade would have occured anyway, he (and no one else by the way) says Majewskis was told to keep it quiet, he also works for the Nationals. Maybe time to get some control of your staff Wayne.

-Fans are going crazy over the trade and one of the cornerstones comes up limp and the day after he goes on the DL Wayne goes to the papers. Couldn't be a case of CYA???

Just pretend you don't hate Bowden and try and look at this with a hint of objectivity. The Reds got taken to the woodshed on this trade (as we will see in the future), they did not do due dilligence, and now they are upset with the results. This story will fade away in 1-2 weeks and we will still have Clayton at SS and Majewskis on the DL.

SteelSD
08-10-2006, 01:24 AM
Now, maybe I'm just nuts...

The caveat emptor rule definitely applies here. Buyer beware- particularly when dealing with a documented snake oil salesman.

Apparently, Majewski was told to keep the cortisone shot on the down-low. Apparently, the Reds didn't receive medical records until August 1st and then they weren't complete. Now, there are a couple schools of thought on that.

First, it's possible that the Reds did ask the right questions and were assured that Majewski was healthy. But if I'm the buyer and I haven't received documentation of the player's condition within 48 hours of a trade, I'm breaking down doors because my assumption is going to be that something's up; particularly if I know that the pitcher had arm issues in May.

BTW, it's interesting that Kremcheck's quote regarding the August 1st arrival of the medical records has been edited out of John Fay's article. The words edited out are: "And even then, they weren't complete."

For those words to be gone, one of two things happened. Either Fay mis-quoted Kremcheck or the Reds called and demanded that the passage be deleted to save face. But let's be clear- one of those two things DID happen and I'd suggest that Krivsky's response thusfar tells us that the latter is more probable. If the former was the likely suspect, Krivsky wouldn't be saying the things he's saying.

This whole thing is a huge debacle. Who's to blame? Well, that's an argument that dips into the realm of semantics. Did Krivsky do the appropriate reasearch and did his medical/trainer staff ask the appropriate questions? I wasn't in the room so I don't know. Did Bowden release the appropriate records documenting every medical procedure for 2006 (and a cortisone injection qualifies)? I haven't seen them, so I don't know. I've seen indications that the Nats didn't release the records in a timely fashion and/or didn't send complete records. But if the records weren't received quickly, is it the Reds or the Nats who dropped the ball? I don't know because I wasn't involved in the transaction.

The quick judgment in me wants to blame Bowden for skirting around MLB rules by providing incomplete information later than it should have been expected. But at the same time, the objective fan in me asks why the Reds waited so long for information to arrive after the player in question cited arm problems earlier in the season.

An MRI was done. Yet, an MRI won't necessarily show everything that might be wrong. Majewski had a cortisone shot shortly before the trade to treat inflammation. Inflammation is a symptom. "Tired arm" is not a medical condition. When someone who's had a cortisone shot reports pain in the same area this quickly after receiving the shot, that's a sign of a bigger problem. And I know this from experience. A cortisone shot is a Big Deal because, if administrated, it allows for further damage to an already damaged area because it treats the symptom rather than the cause.

So who's to blame? The rip-off artist or the first-year GM? Is it the Nationals fault for not getting complete medical records to the Reds soon enough or is it the Reds fault for not requiring that complete medical records be provided soon enough?

Caveat emptor. Buyer beware. I think that Bowden sold the Reds damaged goods. I worried about that (and posted as much) immediately after the trade. But naivate doesn't protect a team from the caveat emptor rule and that's what MLB uses as its guideline. Knowing that, I see Bowden (as much as I despise him) as the protected party and Krivsky as the guy who trusted too much and whose crew wasn't on the ball in acquiring the information he needed because of it.

Basically, Krivsky got played by an unscrupulous GM looking to gain an edge. But it's not like Bowden is the only guy out there who'll look to rob you blind. Maybe Krivsky learned a lesson here, but it's a rather tough lesson to learn.

And I don't fault Krivsky for being ticked off. But the person he should be most ticked off with is himself.

TeamBoone
08-10-2006, 01:35 AM
Perhaps it wasn't known that GM's medical record wasn't complete until he disclosed the cortisone injection... which wasn't recorded in his chart?

REDREAD
08-10-2006, 01:48 AM
The thing that makes me suspicious about the Reds' stance is that they claimed that the whole tenditious bout was "news to them". I can't believe they are that incompetent. That smells of a big CYA campain.
They claim that the whole tendonitis thing was news to them, yet they also claimed that the Nats lied when they probed about it? Come on guys, get your story straight.

Excellent posts NDRed and Steel. If the Reds had concerns about Maj's health, they were fools to finalize the deal before they had all the medical records in their hands.

WVRedsFan
08-10-2006, 01:54 AM
Caveat emptor. Buyer beware. I think that Bowden sold the Reds damaged goods. I worried about that (and posted as much) immediately after the trade. But naivate doesn't protect a team from the caveat emptor rule and that's what MLB uses as its guideline. Knowing that, I see Bowden (as much as I despise him) as the protected party and Krivsky as the guy who trusted too much and whose crew wasn't on the ball in acquiring the information he needed because of it.

Basically, Krivsky got played by an unscrupulous GM looking to gain an edge. But it's not like Bowden is the only guy out there who'll look to rob you blind. Maybe Krivsky learned a lesson here, but it's a rather tough lesson to learn.

And I don't fault Krivsky for being ticked off. But the person he should be most ticked off with is himself.

Tremendous post, Steel...

I have a hard time looking at any defense for Jim Bowden, but I also am in awe that the Reds didn't take all precautions when dealing with the scum. Here's the guy who interrupted trade negotiations with the Dodgers and asked where "Tommy" was--the head Dodger. No class all the time. Wayne Krivsky in a panic to repair the bullpen, probably on the order of Bob Castilini (sorry, I haven't learned to spell his name yet), took a chance and got burned. It's simple as far as I can see. I imagine most who deal with Bowden are so cautious that they take every precaution. Wayne, in his panic to do something, anything, did not. Case closed.

Krivsky fascinates me. He apparently loves to make things happen. I'm not sure it's on his own or at the order of the owner, but he's been somewhat reckless. The Arroyo for Pena trade has worked out (though, we have to wait until the end of the season to know for sure--WMP may yet become Mickey Mantle). The acquisition of Brandon Phillips has been called brilliant, as was the David Ross deal. Can't argue with this. Same goes for bringing in Everyday Eddie. And yet this same man can, with a straight face, trade the starting shortstop and right fielder for Majewski, Bray, Clayton and a Thanksgiving turkey (no offense to the turkey--we don't know if he's a turkey yet. Mea culpa). Majewski was iffy when he was healthy, Bray was a promising reliever, and Clayton was a washed up 36-year old infielder who was obviously declining in skill. The whole idea must have been that Majewski and Bray would be dependable relievers to stop the bleeding and Clayton could step in and replace Lopez--this sounds like Narron talking here with his love of veterans.

It all went sour when Clayton was worse than Lopez in the field (I know some will disagree with me) and Majewski was found to be hurt after he hurt the team in almost every appearance. Now, it appears that the haste to get some help in the bullpen cost the Reds two players who were thought to be the future for a sore arm, a prospect, and a washed-up. Shame on Wayne. He got fleeced.

I'm not ready to throw Krivsky out to the wolves just yet. Everyone makes mistakes (look at the Cardinals signing Jeff Weaver), but to get fooled in front of everyone must hurt--especially from JimBo.

The best Wayne can hope for is that Magic rights himself and becomes dependable, Narron benches Clayton for about anyone (not likely), Bray becomes lights out, and the prospect becomes Cy Young. The worst is Majewski never regains his powress, Bray is more of the same, Clayton continues to have mental errors in the field, and the prospect has to have Tommy John surgery. You can bet Krivsky's prayer is that the latter doesn't happen, for if it does, Bobby Boy will send him packing.

Another is Krivsky's attempt to look diplomatic in the face of all of this. Carefully choosing his works in public, he sounded like Dan O'Brien yesterday and today. Either say, "I'm going to kick his rear for doing this, " or have no comment. Don't use five-dollar words and say things like "fluid." He'd gain a whole bunch of points with Reds fans if he'd either say what he feels or keep his trap shut. Like Steel, I understand why he's upset, he just needs to really express that or clam up.

And one final word...nothing will probably come of this. Like it is in most of life, Wayne got fleeced and regardless of the public opinion of the Reds faithful, we're stuck. Let's hope some lessons were learned.

SteelSD
08-10-2006, 02:22 AM
Perhaps it wasn't known that GM's medical record wasn't complete until he disclosed the cortisone injection... which wasn't recorded in his chart?

If Majewski's cortisone injection wasn't listed in his medical records, that's an issue because a cortisone injection is a big-time treatment for a severe symptom.

That being said, it appears that the Reds received medical records on August 1st and it appears that the medical records were incomplete.

I'd suggest that even if those records show a cortisone injection, that's still a huge problem for the Reds because they waited two weeks (maybe more) for the records. If I were an arbitrator, sans communication that those records were required well before August 1st, I'd rule that a positive medical condition was stipulated by Krivsky due to the lack of urgency in acquiring those records immediately.

IslandRed
08-10-2006, 10:19 AM
Basically, Krivsky got played by an unscrupulous GM looking to gain an edge. But it's not like Bowden is the only guy out there who'll look to rob you blind. Maybe Krivsky learned a lesson here, but it's a rather tough lesson to learn.

Yep. It's certainly nothing new in baseball to try and hide the fact that a pitcher has a sore arm so you can dump him onto someone else. And it's not all that difficult to do. As noted before in the thread, Bowden did the same thing to Walt Jocketty, and the Cards' front office is not often accused of incompetence or a lack of diligence.

What's interesting about the whole thing is that Krivsky is rejecting the notion that this is business as usual. Like you said, we don't know specifically what the questions and answers were, but Krivsky obviously doesn't believe he got the truth and he's not willing to let perceived unethical behavior slide as "just part of the game." As long as it's matched with a reviewing of internal procedures to better protect us next time, I find it refreshing.

flyer85
08-10-2006, 11:07 AM
Bowden pulled a fast one and like has been said, they were some known issues reported with Majewski. In addition, his workload was very high. That would have been enough to scare me away.

paulrichjr
08-10-2006, 11:12 AM
Tremendous post, Steel...

I have a hard time looking at any defense for Jim Bowden, but I also am in awe that the Reds didn't take all precautions when dealing with the scum. Here's the guy who interrupted trade negotiations with the Dodgers and asked where "Tommy" was--the head Dodger. No class all the time. Wayne Krivsky in a panic to repair the bullpen, probably on the order of Bob Castilini (sorry, I haven't learned to spell his name yet), took a chance and got burned. It's simple as far as I can see. I imagine most who deal with Bowden are so cautious that they take every precaution. Wayne, in his panic to do something, anything, did not. Case closed.

Krivsky fascinates me. He apparently loves to make things happen. I'm not sure it's on his own or at the order of the owner, but he's been somewhat reckless. The Arroyo for Pena trade has worked out (though, we have to wait until the end of the season to know for sure--WMP may yet become Mickey Mantle). The acquisition of Brandon Phillips has been called brilliant, as was the David Ross deal. Can't argue with this. Same goes for bringing in Everyday Eddie. And yet this same man can, with a straight face, trade the starting shortstop and right fielder for Majewski, Bray, Clayton and a Thanksgiving turkey (no offense to the turkey--we don't know if he's a turkey yet. Mea culpa). Majewski was iffy when he was healthy, Bray was a promising reliever, and Clayton was a washed up 36-year old infielder who was obviously declining in skill. The whole idea must have been that Majewski and Bray would be dependable relievers to stop the bleeding and Clayton could step in and replace Lopez--this sounds like Narron talking here with his love of veterans.

It all went sour when Clayton was worse than Lopez in the field (I know some will disagree with me) and Majewski was found to be hurt after he hurt the team in almost every appearance. Now, it appears that the haste to get some help in the bullpen cost the Reds two players who were thought to be the future for a sore arm, a prospect, and a washed-up. Shame on Wayne. He got fleeced.

I'm not ready to throw Krivsky out to the wolves just yet. Everyone makes mistakes (look at the Cardinals signing Jeff Weaver), but to get fooled in front of everyone must hurt--especially from JimBo.

The best Wayne can hope for is that Magic rights himself and becomes dependable, Narron benches Clayton for about anyone (not likely), Bray becomes lights out, and the prospect becomes Cy Young. The worst is Majewski never regains his powress, Bray is more of the same, Clayton continues to have mental errors in the field, and the prospect has to have Tommy John surgery. You can bet Krivsky's prayer is that the latter doesn't happen, for if it does, Bobby Boy will send him packing.

Another is Krivsky's attempt to look diplomatic in the face of all of this. Carefully choosing his works in public, he sounded like Dan O'Brien yesterday and today. Either say, "I'm going to kick his rear for doing this, " or have no comment. Don't use five-dollar words and say things like "fluid." He'd gain a whole bunch of points with Reds fans if he'd either say what he feels or keep his trap shut. Like Steel, I understand why he's upset, he just needs to really express that or clam up.

And one final word...nothing will probably come of this. Like it is in most of life, Wayne got fleeced and regardless of the public opinion of the Reds faithful, we're stuck. Let's hope some lessons were learned.


WayneK blew it and now he knows it and he is trying to save face...I agree...

Matt700wlw
08-10-2006, 11:17 AM
WayneK blew it and now he knows it and he is trying to save face...I agree...

Really...

Falls City Beer
08-10-2006, 11:41 AM
Really...

Unfortunately, it appears that way. I can't say for certain, obviously, about the "covering it up" part, but he appears to have gotten fleeced, in more ways than one.

gonelong
08-10-2006, 01:12 PM
Yeah. Here's the link for those interested. Scroll to middle of article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050701046.html

I will say that just because the Enquirer tells us that the above article was "news to the Reds" doesn't mean it's true.

Bowden's antics have always frustrated me. But this trade, even with a healthy Jesus-is-Majewski, was so ill-conceived that Krivsky almost deserves this.

Ok, since I made a crack about the Reds joining Fantasy Baseball to get this infomration I did a quick google search for [fantasy baseball Majewski ESPN]
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=fantasy+baseball+Majewski+ESPN&btnG=Search

First link returned shows EPSNs Fatansy Baseball site with an entry on Majewski with Tendonitis. :nono:

GL

registerthis
08-10-2006, 01:26 PM
Ok, since I made a crack about the Reds joining Fantasy Baseball to get this infomration I did a quick google search for [fantasy baseball Majewski ESPN]
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=fantasy+baseball+Majewski+ESPN&btnG=Search

First link returned shows EPSNs Fatansy Baseball site with an entry on Majewski with Tendonitis. :nono:

GL

Good thing you were joking.

reds44
08-10-2006, 01:27 PM
http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/request.dll?PLAYERNOTESARCHIVE&Param0=7099

BrooklynRedz
08-11-2006, 12:06 AM
I apologize if I've missed it (I've tried to follow the thread but might have missed something), but where did the Reds admit to being shocked that Majewski had had tendinitis earlier this season? I understood it as the Reds were shocked that Maj was still suffereing from the tendinitis at the time of the trade. In and of itself, tendinitis is a short-term inconvenience rather than a long-term worry. However, when you trade for a reliever at the trade deadline, that short-term inconvenience is a long-term concern, considering the time of the year. There is no doubt the Reds knew he had tendinitis earlier in the season and because of that among the first questions asked was: "Is (Majewski) still suffering from the tendinitis in his throwing arm?" Or something to that effect. And from everything I've read it seems the answer from Bowden was "Nope."

redsrule2500
08-11-2006, 03:14 AM
Good thing you were joking.

how is he joking?

May 9th

redsrule2500
08-11-2006, 03:32 AM
I apologize if I've missed it (I've tried to follow the thread but might have missed something), but where did the Reds admit to being shocked that Majewski had had tendinitis earlier this season? I understood it as the Reds were shocked that Maj was still suffereing from the tendinitis at the time of the trade. In and of itself, tendinitis is a short-term inconvenience rather than a long-term worry. However, when you trade for a reliever at the trade deadline, that short-term inconvenience is a long-term concern, considering the time of the year. There is no doubt the Reds knew he had tendinitis earlier in the season and because of that among the first questions asked was: "Is (Majewski) still suffering from the tendinitis in his throwing arm?" Or something to that effect. And from everything I've read it seems the answer from Bowden was "Nope."

The cortozone (sp) shot as well.

REDREAD
08-11-2006, 03:58 AM
I apologize if I've missed it (I've tried to follow the thread but might have missed something), but where did the Reds admit to being shocked that Majewski had had tendinitis earlier this season?

I tried a quick look and couldn't find it. Dig through this thread and the locked one on Reds Live. There's a quote that makes it appear as if Wayne said "We didn't even know he had tendonitis this year".. Look for a flurry of dumbfounded RZ posters afterwards..

MaineRed
08-11-2006, 05:38 AM
Unfortunately, it appears that way. I can't say for certain, obviously, about the "covering it up" part, but he appears to have gotten fleeced, in more ways than one.

I disagree, strongly.

RFS62
08-11-2006, 09:50 AM
I apologize if I've missed it (I've tried to follow the thread but might have missed something), but where did the Reds admit to being shocked that Majewski had had tendinitis earlier this season? I understood it as the Reds were shocked that Maj was still suffereing from the tendinitis at the time of the trade. In and of itself, tendinitis is a short-term inconvenience rather than a long-term worry. However, when you trade for a reliever at the trade deadline, that short-term inconvenience is a long-term concern, considering the time of the year. There is no doubt the Reds knew he had tendinitis earlier in the season and because of that among the first questions asked was: "Is (Majewski) still suffering from the tendinitis in his throwing arm?" Or something to that effect. And from everything I've read it seems the answer from Bowden was "Nope."



Interesting take.

traderumor
08-11-2006, 03:51 PM
I just got back from being away for a week and took the time to read some of the thread. So, if I am not covering any new ground, forgive me. Whether the Reds asked a specific question, it would certainly seem that an oral medical representation would be requested in any trade, and because there is such scrutiny of everything that happens in MLB, it would behoove a GM with any kind of common sense to include a cortisone shot given just before the AS Break. This is the responsibility of the team being asked basic medical questions. Also, medical reports in season lagging behind the finalizing of the deal is likely quite commonplace, but in this case, it seems they are lagging and incomplete purposefully. As for "buyer beware," the MLB official said lying is a horse of a different color, and it appears that there is a coverup involved. I think the question is how the Reds should be compensated, not if.

Benihana
08-13-2006, 09:39 AM
I just got back from being away for a week and took the time to read some of the thread. So, if I am not covering any new ground, forgive me. Whether the Reds asked a specific question, it would certainly seem that an oral medical representation would be requested in any trade, and because there is such scrutiny of everything that happens in MLB, it would behoove a GM with any kind of common sense to include a cortisone shot given just before the AS Break. This is the responsibility of the team being asked basic medical questions. Also, medical reports in season lagging behind the finalizing of the deal is likely quite commonplace, but in this case, it seems they are lagging and incomplete purposefully. As for "buyer beware," the MLB official said lying is a horse of a different color, and it appears that there is a coverup involved. I think the question is how the Reds should be compensated, not if.

Agreed. I also was overseas for the past week, any new word on this? Is it going to an arbitrator? Maybe now we get Jon Rauch...maybe wishful thinking ;)

Falls City Beer
08-13-2006, 10:05 AM
The fact that this appears to have died on the vine and that a formal grievance has still not been filed suggests that the Reds have decided the best medicine is to clean their own wounds and move on.

DoogMinAmo
08-13-2006, 11:17 AM
The most important result from this unfortunate situation is the lesson learned for future trades, especially if with JB. Chalk this one up to a first year GM trying to make his first big trade, and getting hosed by a GM who knows what he is doing when it comes to wheeling and dealing. If WK learned frorm his mistakes, or even picked up some pointers, I feel a heck of a lot better for the future.

If not, this board could get ugly.

traderumor
08-13-2006, 05:54 PM
The most important result from this unfortunate situation is the lesson learned for future trades, especially if with JB. Chalk this one up to a first year GM trying to make his first big trade, and getting hosed by a GM who knows what he is doing when it comes to wheeling and dealing. If WK learned frorm his mistakes, or even picked up some pointers, I feel a heck of a lot better for the future.

If not, this board could get ugly.The best thing that could come from this is that Bowden is run out of the game on a charger. Let him go back to where he fit in--with the idiots on ESPN. As far as getting hosed, Krivsky really has no lesson to learn because it is highly unlikely that any other GM will ever again so brazenly withhold information. All business transactions require a degree of trust from the other party, and in such an environment as baseball, Krivsky operated within a reasonable amount of due care from what I see. The only lesson I see is that the same idiot that did not do his own due diligence on Brian Lawrence is the same idiot involved in hiding critical medical information from a prospective buyer. That it has been unnecessary to cover such ground with regulation until now goes to the slimeball status that is Jim Bowden. Any forthcoming hindsight rules can only be called the Rule of the Leatherpants.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 10:12 AM
The fact that this appears to have died on the vine and that a formal grievance has still not been filed suggests that the Reds have decided the best medicine is to clean their own wounds and move on.

Yes, my guess is that Wayne was looking for an excuse to cover his mistake, but now realizes that there's really nothing to file a grievance about.

I know nobody likes Bowden, but it was pretty classless of Wayne to make a big stink about this in the press to make himself look better.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 10:17 AM
The best thing that could come from this is that Bowden is run out of the game on a charger. .

Or maybe Wayne was the one that was making a bogus accusation?

I know Bowden is always presumed guilty and he's a convienent scapegoat, but it doesn't seem as if Wayne is pressing forward with a grievance.

This reminds me so much of when Bowden raped Lasorda in the Shaw trade. Lasorda cried because he didn't know Shaw could demand a trade. My guess is that Bowden did what was required by the rules. The fact that the Reds' own doctor diagnosed the problem as overuse doesn't give Wayne much of a leg to stand on. No injury for Bowden to hide, was there?

We never heard from the Reds that the cortizone shot was omitted from the records either. I bet it if was, they would've been a griveance filed. Wayne's silence now seems to indicate that it has died. Also, the way Doc Hollywood's story was edited (probably at the Reds' request) probably means that the medical records were complete, and Doc Hollywood was stretching the truth (again).

KoryMac5
08-14-2006, 08:53 PM
I honestly think that we aren't privy to both sides of the story. I doubt that the truth will ever come out of this mess.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 09:24 PM
I honestly think that we aren't privy to both sides of the story. I doubt that the truth will ever come out of this mess.

But if the Reds end up in scoring compensation, we'll find out about it in the transactions.

You're right, if the result is simply that Wayne refuses to ever trade with Bowden again, we'll never know.

redsmetz
08-14-2006, 09:37 PM
We never heard from the Reds that the cortizone shot was omitted from the records either. I bet it if was, they would've been a griveance filed. Wayne's silence now seems to indicate that it has died. Also, the way Doc Hollywood's story was edited (probably at the Reds' request) probably means that the medical records were complete, and Doc Hollywood was stretching the truth (again).

I thought I read that there was no mention in the medical records. That said, Wayne indicated this would take some time to study the facts and decide how to proceed. In our instant news world, we sometimes forget that things can take a little time.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 09:47 PM
We never heard from the Reds that the cortizone shot was omitted from the records either. I bet it if was, they would've been a griveance filed. Wayne's silence now seems to indicate that it has died.

Well the records didn't show up until 2 weeks after the trade, but they do know this occured.

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060808&content_id=1599466&vkey=news_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was


Krivsky admitted that Washington's medical staff did not inform the Reds that Majewski had a cortisone injection during trade negotiations. Cincinnati medical director Tim Kremchek, also an advisor for the Nationals, said the Reds were working off the medical information provided by Washington.

"All I know is when we did the trade, we did our due diligence," Kremchek said. "We asked the same questions we've been asking teams for years. The guy (Majewski) showed up and said he was fine. We took it at face value."

Before the trade, Majewski was 3-2 with 3.58, and one reason for trading him was that manager Frank Robinson was disappointed in Majewski's performance because, the skipper felt, his head was not into the game. Robinson relieved bullpen coach John Wetteland of his duties in June, in part, because he felt Wetteland was a negative influence on Majewski. Robinson felt Wetteland changed Majewski's personality into more of a prankster in the clubhouse and bullpen, a charge Majewski denied.

The in turn Bowden's reply in his press release was this


I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade.

Italics are mine, and I think that's the rub... Bowden implies that the complete picture wasn't needed because the subject of the complete picture was never really defined.

Reminds me of another semantics incident in D.C., must be the humidity.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 11:11 PM
I still think that if Wayne was really that interested in Maj's health, he could've gotten the health records faxed over within an hour. He had Bowden drooling over Kearns and Lopez. I bet if Wayne insisted on the records before the trade, he could've forced it to happen. Again, this points to the impulsiveness and desparation at the time of the trade.

We'll never know exactly what Wayne asked Bowden. Again, for an example, if Wayne just asked "how does his arm feel" and Bowden said "fine", then it's Wayne's fault. If Wayne asked "What treatment has he been under this season for his tendonitis" and Bowden omitted stuff, then it's Bowden's fault.

Given how angry Wayne is, I'm sure he'd file a grievance if he thought he could win it.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 11:27 PM
Again, for an example, if Wayne just asked "how does his arm feel" and Bowden said "fine", then it's Wayne's fault.

Majewski said he was treated for tendinitis with the Nationals, consisting of three treatments of anti-inflammatory medicine, plus a cortisone shot just before the all-star break.

The fact that that didn't come up in the conversation is wrong, and the downright shifty. Lots of folks seem to be under the inmpression that the issue is around a cortisone shot that occured in May when reports of his arm soreness surfaced.

As reported here


Call it the WBC curse. Gary Majewski heads to the DL with shoulder soreness and blames pitching in the World Baseball Classic for his troubles. It's interesting that Majewski never noted this in the previous four months and certainly didn't indicate this problem to his new team, the Reds. The team was aware when they traded for him that he'd been dealing with "mild shoulder tendonitis," but one cortisone injection back in May cleared up the problem. If this has been bothering him since the trade, it does explain his poor performance. There's no clear indication when Majewski could return. Luckily, the Reds' bullpen is one loaded with quantity, if not quality.

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=5399

However the issue is the shot that occured before the ASB and around the time of the trade.

So the real question at this time is where there TWO shots? One in May and one in early July? Or is the shot before the ASB the one in May?

REDREAD
08-15-2006, 12:30 AM
So the real question at this time is where there TWO shots? One in May and one in early July? Or is the shot before the ASB the one in May?

To be honest, I think we'll never know the truth.

The Reds' crediblity has taken a little bit of a hit because they claimed at one time that the whole tendonitis thing was "news to them". Also Doc claimed that even after the Nationals sent the records, they were still "incomplete". Both these statements were later retracted or removed.

So basically, you have unreliable Reds' sources, like Doc Hollywood, with an ax to grind against Bowden. Maybe that's where these writers are getting their information from.

It's convienent to make Bowden look like the con man to save face, but until I hear that Wayne is pushing forward and filing a sanction, I'm going to remain skeptical of the Reds' side of the story.

Wayne seemed to back down pretty quickly when he got more information in.
Doc didn't, but Wayne did. It seems to me that Wayne had an emotional reaction when he heard Maj's shoulder got hurt, and then tried to rationalize he got screwed. The next day, he seemed to have cooled down quite a bit.

BCubb2003
08-15-2006, 01:49 AM
The next trade with Jim Bowden will go like this:

"Has this player ever been diagnosed with the heebie-jeebies, the willies, the yips or the hippy-hippy shake?"

"Has he ever been injected with cortisone, testosterone, silicone or Toblerone?"

"Is he allergic to peanuts and/or Crackerjack?"

"In the period of time since he last pitched, has this player been hit by a falling meteor, meteorite, stalagmite, stalactite, piano or anvil?"

"Please turn to the latest morbidity and mortality report from the CDC and specify which if any of the conditions listed there apply to this player."

"Has this player even been accused of being a prankster?"

"If so, what was the outcome of the case?"

"Does this player have any other persons, named or unnamed, living inside his head?"

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 06:36 AM
So basically, you have unreliable Reds' sources, like Doc Hollywood, with an ax to grind against Bowden. Maybe that's where these writers are getting their information from.



Yup, Kremchek has an ax to grind with a team HE WORKS FOR.

Good call.

RFS62
08-15-2006, 09:39 AM
"Does this player have any other persons, named or unnamed, living inside his head?"



That's the one that killed my deal.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 09:49 AM
It's convienent to make Bowden look like the con man to save face,
If the shoe fits, if it walks like a duck....

Looks to me like you're bending over backwards to give Bowden an out.

Have at it... he gets no free pass from me.

Chip R
08-15-2006, 09:57 AM
Yup, Kremchek has an ax to grind with a team HE WORKS FOR.


Which team? ;)

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 09:58 AM
If the shoe fits, if it walks like a duck....

Looks to me like you're bending over backwards to give Bowden an out.

Have at it... he gets no free pass from me.

Do I think Bowden is guilty of shenanigans in this case? Yes.

Has the prosecution (Kriv & Kremchek) done a good enough job arguing the case? Not at all.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 10:00 AM
Has the prosecution (Kriv & Kremchek) done a good enough job arguing the case? Not at all.
Some folks don't play there hands in public, just because it's not a press item doesn't mean that it's all over either does it?

I'd hope not.

redsmetz
08-15-2006, 10:00 AM
Which team? ;)

He has done work for both teams, but he indicated somewhere since this that he is going to sever his contract with the Nationals.

Someone raised this question in this thread I think, while Kremcheck is doing lots of work on different players, is he actually suceeding in his endeavors? What's his track record at this time? For that matter what are Jobes or Andrews track records at this time.

Sometimes I think Kremcheck is too pal-sy with the team and I wonder if he isn't more enamored with the limelight than he should be.

ochre
08-15-2006, 10:03 AM
Do I think Bowden is guilty of shenanigans in this case? Yes.

Has the prosecution (Kriv & Kremchek) done a good enough job arguing the case? Not at all.
Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 10:03 AM
Some folks don't play there hands in public, just because it's not a press item doesn't mean that it's all over either does it?

I'd hope not.


We'll see. Though I find it somewhat strange that not only has Wayne stopped talking about it, so too has the press. Of course, it's not like the Cincy press is particularly dogged in their pursuit of a story.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 10:06 AM
We'll see. Though I find it somewhat strange that not only has Wayne stopped talking about it, but so too has the press. Of course, it's not like the Cincy press is particularly dogged in their pursuit of a story.
He stopped talking about it after it happened, when he was on ESPN he said it was a sore spot and they were looking into it. That was 5 days ago... 5 days and we actually think that we are going to hear about everything?

Some organizations don't play their games in the press. Thus it's kind of hard to hear anything in Philadelphia or Portland.

Sorry there will be no back and forth in public (if there is still any back and forth that is)

backbencher
08-15-2006, 10:28 AM
Following up on woy's ideas, here is a part of one of his cites:


Krivsky admitted that Washington's medical staff did not inform the Reds that Majewski had a cortisone injection during trade negotiations. Cincinnati medical director Tim Kremchek, also an advisor for the Nationals, said the Reds were working off the medical information provided by Washington.

I always assumed that the situation we had was where the "during" modifies "inform." This syntax reads as if "during" modifies "had" - that is, that the injection came after negotiations started. That is plausible if there was a July shot, and would put the Reds on pretty solid ground, I would think. I don't think that is a likely scenario, but it seems possible.

princeton
08-15-2006, 10:35 AM
my grandfather used to mildly sedate his horses before trying to sell them. Nasty beasts when not sedated. Biters. If you were ever bitten on a dude ranch, thank my grandpa.

but I'm sure that this info was shared with the ranch owner ;)

flyer85
08-15-2006, 10:38 AM
even if
a) the Reds file a grievance
and
b) win

It won't have any impact on the present and little on the future. In the end this is much ado about little. It is water under the bridge at this point.

RFS62
08-15-2006, 10:38 AM
Wonder what would happen to Jimbo if he made this horse trade in Deadwood?

I'm thinkin' he'd get to meet Wu's pigs.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 11:37 AM
The latest for Carroll of BP


On another Reds injury note, I’m told that Wayne Krivsky has asked the Nationals to send him a minor-leaguer to "even out" the Gary Majewski deal instead of filing a grievance.

Maybe the Reds could get Blanco back? :D

NJReds
08-15-2006, 11:55 AM
The latest for Carroll of BP



Maybe the Reds could get Blanco back? :D


Or Larson...or Chris Booker...:help:

In other news, Wagner has given up 8 ER in 6 innings since rejoining the Nats. He's given up 3 dingers, walked 5 and K'd 3. Wow...I wonder if that guy will ever find his way.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 12:09 PM
even if
a) the Reds file a grievance
and
b) win

It won't have any impact on the present and little on the future. In the end this is much ado about little. It is water under the bridge at this point.

Exactly. When the dust all settles on this ordeal, the Reds will not have made their team better for the stretch drive. And that's the whole point, eh?

westofyou
08-15-2006, 12:10 PM
Exactly. When the dust all settles on this ordeal, the Reds will not have made their team better for the stretch drive. And that's the whole point, eh?
Yet there they are in it... go figure.

membengal
08-15-2006, 12:12 PM
So the fortuity of location in the National League makes the deal less stinky? That's a thin thread.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 12:15 PM
So the fortuity of location in the National League makes the deal less stinky? That's a thin thread.
War is the health of the state, playing for something ALWAYS beats playing out the string. The 1973 Mets stunk and made it to the WS, think they'd give it back because the NL East stunk that year?

registerthis
08-15-2006, 12:19 PM
War is the health of the state, playing for something ALWAYS beats playing out the string. The 1973 Mets stunk and made it to the WS, think they'd give it back because the NL East stunk that year?

Hey, I'll take the postseason anyway I can get it. But barring some miraculous turnaround by Majewski and an improved performance from Bray, if the reds make the postseason it won't be because of the contributions of either of them.

membengal
08-15-2006, 12:23 PM
I am not saying I am not thrilled with the team's location in the NL, or that it would be beyond thrilling to make a post-season, just that noting that they are "still in it" when discussing the merits of the Kearns/Lopez deal is not the world's best reference point.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 12:24 PM
Hey, I'll take the postseason anyway I can get it. But barring some miraculous turnaround by Majewski and an improved performance from Bray, if the reds make the postseason it won't be because of the contributions of either of them.
6 weeks left in the season, it could be for any numerous reasons, no one knows now do they?

It could be because Freel got Kearns spot, it could be because the simple play at SS was made, it could be because Bill Brey surprises you and me, or Majewski comes back and does good... in fact no one knows what will happen and how the trade affected the clubhouse and the team as a whole until the season is over.

So why continually act as it is known?

ochre
08-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Hey, I'll take the postseason anyway I can get it. But barring some miraculous turnaround by Majewski and an improved performance from Bray, if the reds make the postseason it won't be because of the contributions of either of them.
but then the slope will shift to this being a trade for the long term. I think we are dealing with a masterbethedger here in Krivsky.

membengal
08-15-2006, 12:27 PM
Woy, for a fact, I don't. I largely sat out the numerous trade threads. The aching suspicion, for my part, that there should have been a bigger return for Kearns/Lopez will not soon go away.

As for Kearns' replacement, I think the team has highly benefited from finally getting Freel steady at-bats. But that doesn't mean that more should not or could not have been gotten for Kearns. But, that's a discussion without resolution, I am sure, based on the discussion on this board over the past few weeks...

flyer85
08-15-2006, 12:28 PM
6 weeks left in the season, it could be for any numerous reasons, no one knows now do they?

It could be because Freel got Kearns spot, it could be because the simple play at SS was made, it could be because Bill Brey surprises you and me, or Majewski comes back and does good... in fact no one knows what will happen and how the trade affected the clubhouse and the team as a whole until the season is over.

So why continually act as it is known?what I do know is that to this point Majewski and Bray haven't made this team better and they were the main reasons for the trade.

The unintended consequence of Freel everyday has been the positive factor to this point.

If the Reds ever do get the pen straightened out I think there is little doubt they will be in the playoffs.

BCubb2003
08-15-2006, 12:34 PM
I feel that Guardado and Bray helped turn the bullpen into barely acceptable, with slightly improved performances from the pre-trades guys. Majewski so far is basically a wash from the Chris Hammond, Rick White, one run in the seventh, two in the eighth, three in the ninth, every single night meltdowns. Guardado and Bray can at least get through an inning more often than not without scoring a run. Without that, there was no chance to stop the losing streak.

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 12:39 PM
Part of the reasoning for not likeing the trade was the value of Kearns and Lopez (and the value we didn't get back in trade). Part of that value is offensive and defensive production is it not? One of the many predictions post trade was that the team would colapse w/o AK and Lopez there to produce runs and provide defense (well, at least from AK).

Yet said collapse has not taken place. This is partly because Freel has taken some of the slack from AK (both OFF and DEF) and other players have carried Claytons dead weight. And yes, partly because the Card are stinking it up too.

So despite playing dreaded older players, despite Maj being injured, despite Bray being so-so we are no worse off then where we were with AK and Lopez. We've continued to play at the same level (or nearly so) with both of them. So how high could their value really have been?

I know it's a muddy picture because of the additions of many other players. But the fact remains we didn't colapse without those two players. IF (and admitidly it's a VERY big IF) we don't colapse by the end of the year I'd say that AK and Lopez weren't very valuable to the Reds at all. AND we have two bullpen arms for the future and two minor league prospects for the future future.

NOTE: That's not to say they aren't good players or valuable to other teams. But what they brought to the table here certinally wasn't helping the Reds go anywhere over the past few years.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 12:39 PM
6 weeks left in the season, it could be for any numerous reasons, no one knows now do they?

It could be because Freel got Kearns spot, it could be because the simple play at SS was made, it could be because Bill Brey surprises you and me, or Majewski comes back and does good... in fact no one knows what will happen and how the trade affected the clubhouse and the team as a whole until the season is over.

So why continually act as it is known?

Might want to re-read my post...there were no 'definites' or 'knowns' there, only a statement that unless Bray and majewski perform better than they have so far, if the reds make the postseasono it won't be due to them.

A 7+ ERA and 2.11 WHIP won't get anyone to the postseason, and that's what Majewski aand Bray combined have given us thus far.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 12:41 PM
I feel that Guardado and Bray helped turn the bullpen into barely acceptable, with slightly improved performances from the pre-trades guys. Majewski so far is basically a wash from the Chris Hammond, Rick White, one run in the seventh, two in the eighth, three in the ninth, every single night meltdowns. Guardado and Bray can at least get through an inning more often than not without scoring a run. Without that, there was no chance to stop the losing streak.

Guardado scares me, though...seems he walks a tightrope almost every night, but manages to escape unscathed most of the time. If he can keep the highwire act going for another month and a half, more power to him.

Puffy
08-15-2006, 12:43 PM
If the Reds ever do get the pen straightened out I think there is little doubt they will be in the playoffs.

I disagree - the bullpen needs to be straightened out, for sure, for the playoffs. But starting pitching will determine whether the Reds make the playoffs. The Nasty Boys could re-emerge for this 6 week stretch, but if the starting pitching doesn't come thru (and I'm not so sure it will) it won't matter.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 12:43 PM
Might want to re-read my post...there were no 'definites' or 'knowns' there, only a statement that unless Bray and majewski perform better than they have so far, if the reds make the postseasono it won't be due to them.

A 7+ ERA and 2.11 WHIP won't get anyone to the postseason, and that's what Majewski aand Bray combined have given us thus far.
"combined" nice caveat there.... Lopez has 7 errors and both he and Kearns are slugging under .381.

Tit for tat..... gotta run, I lost my DL and I have to go to DMV.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 12:43 PM
Guardado scares me, though...seems he walks a tightrope almost every night, but manages to escape unscathed most of the time. If he can keep the highwire act going for another month and a half, more power to him.

Guardado, I suspect, has no business pitching back to back to back games. Just a hunch.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 12:44 PM
Guardado scares me, though...seems he walks a tightrope almost every night, but manages to escape unscathed most of the time. he has missed a lot of bats as a Red(none of the other relievers do) and the defense sure didn't help him in Philly.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 12:45 PM
I disagree - the bullpen needs to be straightened out, for sure, for the playoffs. But starting pitching will determine whether the Reds make the playoffs. The Nasty Boys could re-emerge for this 6 week stretch, but if the starting pitching doesn't come thru (and I'm not so sure it will) it won't matter.every team the Reds are competing with has starting pitching issues. At this point they are what they are. It's the teams that manage their shortcomings best that will finish on top.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 12:46 PM
every team the Reds are competing with has starting pitching issues. At this point they are what they are. It's the teams that manage their shortcomings best that will finish on top.

I agree to some extent. Though I unquestionably agree with Puffy that of the remaining "contenders" in the NL, the Reds' starting pitching is without a doubt the worst.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 12:51 PM
"combined" nice caveat there....

Unfortunately, the stats all count the same, WOY. And I don't see how Lopez and Kearns' success (or lack thereof) in Washington affects the prospects for the Reds right now. Again, the reds were trying to upgrade their bullpen, and Majewski's been a liability to this point, and Bray has been merely OK. Bullpen saviors? Not at this point they aren't.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 12:54 PM
I agree to some extent. Though I unquestionably agree with Puffy that of the remaining "contenders" in the NL, the Reds' starting pitching is without a doubt the worst.I really don't like the Snakes starting pitching. But the Reds have offensive strength over a number of their competitors(like the Padres, Stros, Rockies ). Everyone has issues, whoever manages their shortcomings while keeping their strengths going will win out in the end.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 12:57 PM
I really don't like the Snakes starting pitching. But the Reds have offensive strength over a number of their competitors(like the Padres, Stros, Rockies ). Everyone has issues, whoever manages their shortcomings while keeping their strengths going will win out in the end.

Right, but some issues (starting pitching) are WAY harder to mask than others (bullpen, 6-9 hitters in your lineup).

The Cards have been masking their bullpens all the way to NL Central Championships for 6 years now; but now that their starting pitching has come apart, their good bullpen can't pick up the slack.

I think that's Puffy's point.

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 12:59 PM
Unfortunately, the stats all count the same, WOY. And I don't see how Lopez and Kearns' success (or lack thereof) in Washington affects the prospects for the Reds right now. Again, the reds were trying to upgrade their bullpen, and Majewski's been a liability to this point, and Bray has been merely OK. Bullpen saviors? Not at this point they aren't.

I think their lack of success is Washington definaley has in impact on this trade Register. One of the main battle cries has been that we should have waited till the offseason to trade them when their trade value would have been higher. Then we would have gotten the full return on our investment so to speak.

But if Lopez and AK go to Washington and tank, then their trade value at the end of the season wouldn't be so hot would it (meaning, that if they go to Washington and tank, it's likely they would have tanked in Cincy also). That's a risk that I don't think Kriv was willing to take. And in light of AK's track record of injury and that Lopez's play was regressing it's a pretty valid risk that their trade value would not, in fact, be higher in the offseason. The early returns seem to have borne out this reasoning.

If they continue to tank we might only have been able to get two mediocre bullpen arms for them. After the season is over. When we needed two bullpen arms, even medicore ones, before the ASB.

I know that doesn't address the value recieved now issue, but in reference to waiting till the offseason I think their performance has a huge impact on outcome of that decision.

LoganBuck
08-15-2006, 01:02 PM
I think Guardado's arm is not far behind Merckers. It is a well known fact that he has had elbow problems for several years now, and now that he is back in position to stress it as a closer, he seems to come up with "forearm stiffness". That just screams "Tommy John Surgery", to me at least. Hopefully he can make it through the rest of the season. I just hope we don't see him throw a pitch and walk off the mound straight into the dugout during the middle of an inning.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
I think Guardado's arm is not far behind Merckers. It is a well known fact that he has had elbow problems for several years nowactually he has had shoulder problems the last few years and at least has a partially torn rotator cuff for which he did not have surgery.

LoganBuck
08-15-2006, 01:05 PM
Oh yeah I remember that now, I thought he had a frayed ligament in his elbow as well. Him having both problems wouldn't surprise me either, given his age and career workload.

The forearm stiffness we keep hearing about, implies elbow issues, does it not?

oregonred
08-15-2006, 01:42 PM
"combined" nice caveat there.... Lopez has 7 errors and both he and Kearns are slugging under .381.

Tit for tat..... gotta run, I lost my DL and I have to go to DMV.

Watch out for those Oregon DMV people. A lot of them follow redszone and you'll need to be prepared with answers to these type of quesitons.

Question 1 ? In the last 90 days have you had a cortisone shot, an inflammed elbow or other such shoulder problems?

Question 2? Do you think Felipe Lopez's VORP should be calculated as a SS, 2B, OF or as a utility man

Question 3? Farney is an odd middle name, was that your grandfather's name or something?

Question 4? Do you think Homer should stay in the minors until 2008 to work on his breaking ball?

Here's your new license sir...

oregonred
08-15-2006, 01:55 PM
Right, but some issues (starting pitching) are WAY harder to mask than others (bullpen, 6-9 hitters in your lineup).

The Cards have been masking their bullpens all the way to NL Central Championships for 6 years now; but now that their starting pitching has come apart, their good bullpen can't pick up the slack.

I think that's Puffy's point.

True, we've seen more than most how that equation falls apart firsthand over the last 5+ seasons. You can survive a couple months, then when the rotation bottom falls out it's a death spiral.

June 1st:
Cards 34-19 267/213 RS/RA. 4.01 runs per game allowed. 5.04 runs scored per game

Since June 1st:
Cards 28-36 303/355 RS/RA. 5.55 runs per game allowed. 4.73 runs scored per game

oregonred
08-15-2006, 02:05 PM
And the Reds numbers

June 1st: 29-24 263/266. 5.02 RA per game. 4.96 RS per game

Since June 1st: 32-33 323/349. 5.37 RA per game. 4.96 RS per game.

The offense since and prior to June 1st is dead on. The extra 1/3 run game allowed translates to an extra 2-3 losses a month.

The Cards 1.8 run split differential has meant an extra 4-5 losses a month since June 1st. Frankly they are lucky to be 28-36 since June 1st (they are 3-4 games above the pythag now) and the Reds are lucky to have survived right at .500 in the same span.

I suspect some of the horrendously bad Cards losses have skewed the numbers but the trend is clear.

In both cases, watch our for Houston...

ochre
08-15-2006, 02:20 PM
But if Lopez and AK go to Washington and tank, then their trade value at the end of the season wouldn't be so hot would it (meaning, that if they go to Washington and tank, it's likely they would have tanked in Cincy also).
I don't think you can make that assumption. I surely would not agree to it as a premise were we formally debating this issue.

reds44
08-15-2006, 02:40 PM
Report: Krivsky ask Nationals for a minor leaguer

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5424


On another Reds injury note, I'm told that Wayne Krivsky has asked the Nationals to send him a minor-leaguer to "even out" the Gary Majewski deal instead of filing a grievance.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 02:49 PM
Interesting. I thought this thing had died.

Pretty much as expected, though. Bowden will throw Krivsky an A baller and that will be the end of this.

Cedric
08-15-2006, 02:51 PM
Interesting. I thought this thing had died.

Pretty much as expected, though. Bowden will throw Krivsky an A baller and that will be the end of this.

I wouldn't be so sure. That would be admitting guilt and it's not like Bowden needs to further ruin his reputation.

But we will just have to wait and see.

Roy Tucker
08-15-2006, 02:56 PM
Guardado, I suspect, has no business pitching back to back to back games. Just a hunch.

I agree. I think there is more to Guardado's perpetual "tight forearm" that what Reds let on.

He has a Mercker-like look on his face when he comes in to pitch, i.e. "I'll keep throwing till something blows".

membengal
08-15-2006, 03:11 PM
F. Liriano has a "tight forearm" too, right before he may have blown is elbow out.

Anything they are getting out of Guardado is absolute icing at this point...

reds44
08-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Eddie can't get righties out. That isn't good when you are a closer.

puca
08-15-2006, 03:14 PM
Eddie can't get righties out. That isn't good when you are a closer.

True. But it is better than not being able to get anyone out or not being able to even throw a ball.

puca
08-15-2006, 03:18 PM
I agree. I think there is more to Guardado's perpetual "tight forearm" that what Reds let on.

He has a Mercker-like look on his face when he comes in to pitch, i.e. "I'll keep throwing till something blows".


Unfortunately I have the same feeling. I'm pretty sure the Reds will be losing the services of Eddie sometime fairly soon.

REDREAD
08-16-2006, 12:34 AM
Yup, Kremchek has an ax to grind with a team HE WORKS FOR.

Good call.

He works for them, but apparently not very closely, as he claims he knew nothing about Maj.

I'm not sure of his exact role, but I imagine it's not near as big as it is with the Reds.

REDREAD
08-16-2006, 12:35 AM
If the shoe fits, if it walks like a duck....

Looks to me like you're bending over backwards to give Bowden an out.

Have at it... he gets no free pass from me.

No, I don't think Wayne should get a free pass on this.

I'm sure Bowden told Wayne the bare minimum that he felt obligated to. Should Wayne expect anything more from any GM?

Even if Maj was 100% healthy, it's still a bad trade.

REDREAD
08-16-2006, 12:39 AM
Some organizations don't play their games in the press. Thus it's kind of hard to hear anything in Philadelphia or Portland.


But Wayne and Doc HEAVILY played this out in the press. Wayne even went so far as to cry about Bowden not returning his phone call within a few hours.

Then the Reds suddenly shut up.

Bowden was the one trying to keep it out of the press, Wayne and Doc were the ones that kept stirring it up in the press.

Trust me, if the Reds do file a grievance about this, it will get leaked into the press.

REDREAD
08-16-2006, 12:47 AM
Report: Krivsky ask Nationals for a minor leaguer

On another Reds injury note, I'm told that Wayne Krivsky has asked the Nationals to send him a minor-leaguer to "even out" the Gary Majewski deal instead of filing a grievance.

He can ask all he wants, but I doubt Bowden caves in after Wayne went to the press and called Bowden a liar.

If anything, there might be compensation disguised as another trade. We trade a D prospect for a C prospect.

But Bowden isn't going to give anything and admit he was wrong. What would Bowden have to gain by doing that? Chances are that Wayne will never trade with him again anyway.

Cedric
08-16-2006, 01:07 AM
He can ask all he wants, but I doubt Bowden caves in after Wayne went to the press and called Bowden a liar.

If anything, there might be compensation disguised as another trade. We trade a D prospect for a C prospect.

But Bowden isn't going to give anything and admit he was wrong. What would Bowden have to gain by doing that? Chances are that Wayne will never trade with him again anyway.
How many times now has Bowden been called out by other organizations?
Granted Bowden was the gm of my hometown team, but I've still never seen anything like it.

What a sad legacy that guy will have to carry around when he's finally done.