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View Full Version : Sorry, the sad fact is, we still don't have enough pitching



GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 05:13 PM
Arroyo is coming down to earth from being a Cy Young leader early in the year. Obviously it was going to happen eventually, the sad fact is, we just don't have enough pitching. In a weak NL, we're barely over .500 and tied (maybe down now) in the NL WC - in a VERY week league this year. Fact is this team in an up NL year would probably be under .500 and 8 games out of the Wild Card at this point.

We're relying on a lot of spare pieces to continue astronomical career years (Hatteburgh, Phillips, Arroyo, Harang) to keep us in it, and when someone falls off, we lose. Sad fact is, we just don't have enough. If we had players in Milton's and Griffey's place that played to what their overpayed salary is, we'dd probably be up there with the Mets leading the NL.

Maybe if we can make it to the final week within 2 or 3 games we could pull off something, right now we're just hanging on watching the playoff spot slip away.

redsupport
08-10-2006, 05:14 PM
the amazing thing is of all the pitchers vs. st louis in this series, mIlton was the best

GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 05:16 PM
Well I guess he's the nine million dollar a game man, since thats how much we pay him to have 3 decent games out of 30 in a year pretty much.

Chainer
08-10-2006, 05:19 PM
Is this being referred to over the course of the season, or just the recent loss?

Hopefully Griffey gets hot very soon and breaks from his 1 for 4 type of shell he keeps casting each game. Cutting down on the strike outs would be great as well.

We split a series with the Cards, which could arguably be the best team in the NL alongside of the Mets.

What is an UP NL year? So, you're saying the the NL is weak this year and that the only reason the Reds are playing good is because the NL is weak? That's absolute crap! I don't need to state any reasoning on that, because either way it's a personal opinion. The Reds have one of the best hitting ballclubs in all of baseball....and their pitching has been really steady for a team that resides in a HITTER'S ballpark.

goreds2
08-10-2006, 05:26 PM
Dare I say, HOMER BAILEY? ;)

GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 05:26 PM
Um its not personal opinion, the NL just sucks this year. It's nowhere as good as the AL, when you only have one team, the Mets, who are steadily above .500 with no danger of going under that point - its pretty sad. The AL completely destroyed the NL in interleague play also. The NL is just in a really down year. If the Reds were in the AL, I doubt we would be over .500.

It's just the way it goes. In 1999 the Reds won 96 games and didn't make the playoffs, and had a better record than the NL West champs and two AL playoff teams I believe. Just a really unfortunate draw who we ended behind that year. This year its been a pretty good draw, except we still don't have enough firepower to take over.

CTA513
08-10-2006, 05:27 PM
Dare I say, HOMER BAILEY? ;)

Joe Mays is in AAA and waiting to be called up.

:evil:

BRM
08-10-2006, 05:28 PM
Joe Mays is in AAA and waiting to be called up.

:evil:


:runaway:

goreds2
08-10-2006, 05:31 PM
I am sure Mr. Bowden has a healthy pitcher for us. :eek:

redsfan30
08-10-2006, 05:37 PM
Were are threads like these after victories???

:dunno:

Chainer
08-10-2006, 05:38 PM
Were are threads like these after victories???

:dunno:

Pretty weird, eh? ;)

Ltlabner
08-10-2006, 05:39 PM
Were are threads like these after victories???

:dunno:

Oddly enough, nowhere to be found...I wonder why that might be.......huuummmmmm ?

GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 05:49 PM
A win or a loss doesn't change things. I didn't even listen to the game, I had to be somewhere, and don't know what happened, except the Reds lost. It's just the simple rule of sports, you have guys who were on the verge of not even being in the majors and they have outstanding seasons - its eventually going to tail off. You can't rely on them forever, if they even tail off to get back to being average, its going to hurt you a lot because you rely on them so much. We just need better pitchers! One year isn't gonig to change years and years of ineptitude. Our 3 and 4 guys have around 5 ERA's, and we have a 5th guy by committee with the last three guys sucking so bad they aren't even in the majors anymore.

Ltlabner
08-10-2006, 05:54 PM
A win or a loss doesn't change things. I didn't even listen to the game, I had to be somewhere, and don't know what happened, except the Reds lost. It's just the simple rule of sports, you have guys who were on the verge of not even being in the majors and they have outstanding seasons - its eventually going to tail off. You can't rely on them forever, if they even tail off to get back to being average, its going to hurt you a lot because you rely on them so much. We just need better pitchers! One year isn't gonig to change years and years of ineptitude. Our 3 and 4 guys have around 5 ERA's, and we have a 5th guy by committee with the last three guys sucking so bad they aren't even in the majors anymore.

And where in this rule does it state that it will always happen before the end of the year that is outstanding?

No doubt without some banner years from Ross, Phillips, EE, Hatteburg, RA, we'd be in bad, bad shape. Most likely they will not repeat themselves to this magnitiude.

But where does it state that they will all cool down prior to the end of 2006 season?

KronoRed
08-10-2006, 06:03 PM
Dare I say, HOMER BAILEY? ;)
Yikes, hate to throw him into the fire like that.

Jr's Boy
08-10-2006, 06:10 PM
Dare I say, HOMER BAILEY? ;)

Would'nt hurt at this juncture to give him a start.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2006, 06:20 PM
Harang a spare piece???

You've lost some credability with that remark.

Aronchis
08-10-2006, 06:28 PM
Yup, the Reds don't have enough pitching, but neither does the NL. The truth is, the Reds aren't that much better, but the NL has come down to our level.

Probably only a 1 year blimp, which could portend some things for next year.

Chainer
08-10-2006, 06:48 PM
LOL I like how he said a lot of our GOOD players are spare pieces.

RedEye
08-10-2006, 07:20 PM
Is this being referred to over the course of the season, or just the recent loss?

Hopefully Griffey gets hot very soon and breaks from his 1 for 4 type of shell he keeps casting each game. Cutting down on the strike outs would be great as well.

We split a series with the Cards, which could arguably be the best team in the NL alongside of the Mets.

What is an UP NL year? So, you're saying the the NL is weak this year and that the only reason the Reds are playing good is because the NL is weak? That's absolute crap! I don't need to state any reasoning on that, because either way it's a personal opinion. The Reds have one of the best hitting ballclubs in all of baseball....and their pitching has been really steady for a team that resides in a HITTER'S ballpark.

I agree that the Cards are one of the better teams in the NL... but I don't get your other reasoning at all. It is, without a doubt, a down year in the NL. All you have to do is look at the standings to see that the NL is not performing very respectably in the one stat that counts the most: wins. That's probably why the AL has, like, six teams playing over .560 ball. Heck, the Twins might not even make the playoffs, and their record is almost the same as the Mets!

As much as I'm glad we have a front office that cares and a GM who tries, I'm having a really hard time understanding the recent acquisitions. We've frittered away all of our viable resources now, and all we have to show for it are five mediocre middle relievers. Yuck.

I hope the Reds make the playoffs, I really do. And I know that "You don't pick the year, the year picks you." I just can't avoid the feeling that the year didn't really pick us at all.

GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 07:25 PM
Harang a spare piece???

You've lost some credability with that remark.

Um, where did I say that? Have some common sense, I was referring to Ross, Phillips, and Hattebrough - to be more specific. Ross was a third string catcher, Hatteburgh was nowhere he didn't even have a job, and Phillips was DFA'ed I believe - or on his way out. And Cody Ross was DFA'ed by the Dodgers and did a damn good job here. You can't expect these guys to keep this up long term. Even with them going so well its barely got us over .500 - what will happen when they go in a real funk or fall back to earth? We've already seen the effects of Arroyo's downfall by himself.

Chainer
08-10-2006, 07:33 PM
Um, where did I say that?

"We're relying on a lot of spare pieces to continue astronomical career years (Hatteburgh, Phillips, Arroyo, Harang)"

^^^ Memory refreshed?

It's fine to be critical on this team (to a certain extent. too much gets annoying), but have a little faith. Most of the guys you mentioned, aside of HATTEBERG (yes, that is how you spell it. take notes.), is young. Why can't we expect them to do good consistantly beyond this year?

Arroyo and the Reds will pick themselves up. That's what you gotta tell yourself. Judging this team by one game at a time isn't necessarily the way to do it....we split with the Cards...hell, most teams in the NL can't even do that, so be gracious.

GOREDSGO32
08-10-2006, 07:57 PM
Well I misworded it wrong, I didn't mean Harang though, I meant he is having a career year. And since you are being an arrogant grammar Nazi to me, I won't respond to you again. Take notes on that, pal.

Chainer
08-10-2006, 08:08 PM
Well I misworded it wrong, I didn't mean Harang though, I meant he is having a career year. And since you are being an arrogant grammar Nazi to me, I won't respond to you again. Take notes on that, pal.

Hahaha calm down! I noticed you spelled it wrong like 3-4 times, so I was just pointing it out.

I'm not being arrogant...well, not any worse than some people around these parts, at least. :p: j/k

TeamBoone
08-10-2006, 09:13 PM
Would'nt hurt at this juncture to give him a start.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

TeamBoone
08-10-2006, 09:15 PM
Well I misworded it wrong, I didn't mean Harang though, I meant he is having a career year. And since you are being an arrogant grammar Nazi to me, I won't respond to you again. Take notes on that, pal.

Harang is not having a career year. He was very good last year as well, and just got even better this year.

KalDanielsfan
08-10-2006, 09:27 PM
if any of you think our rotation/bullpen will get us deep into the playoffs or even the world series, i want your number cuz i wanna buy the drugs you are taking.

StillFunkyB
08-10-2006, 09:31 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I'll second that TB.

KronoRed
08-10-2006, 09:50 PM
Were are threads like these after victories???

:dunno:
After victories we have "WE'RE GOING TO THE SERIES" threads ;)

Phhhl
08-10-2006, 09:59 PM
Hogwash. Any team that gets this deep into a season within reach of a playoff spot has a chance. The Cardinals basically have one starting pitcher that is clearly good enough to start for the Reds. One. And, I would have to say our bullpen is better. If we're not going anywhere, it might be surmised that they aren't either. Sit down in front and enjoy the rest of the movie.

Falls City Beer
08-10-2006, 10:12 PM
And, I would have to say our bullpen is better. .

Their bullpen is better.

redsmetz
08-10-2006, 10:24 PM
And where in this rule does it state that it will always happen before the end of the year that is outstanding?

No doubt without some banner years from Ross, Phillips, EE, Hatteburg, RA, we'd be in bad, bad shape. Most likely they will not repeat themselves to this magnitiude.

But where does it state that they will all cool down prior to the end of 2006 season?

It's written by the "Career Norms" Society By-Laws, Section 16(f), Paragraph 7(j) - there is no escaping it, no magic to be found here. These are not human beings, they are purely statistical beings, it is all predestined, you cannot escape it. There is no hope.

[tongue firmly in cheek]

Phhhl
08-10-2006, 10:26 PM
Their bullpen is better.

If so, then not by much. But, my point is, few if any teams in this league have signifigantly better pitching than the Reds do. And, I expect the Reds to be in it through the remainder of the season. Nothing happened in this series to suggest otherwise.

redsmetz
08-10-2006, 10:27 PM
Harang is not having a career year. He was very good last year as well, and just got even better this year.

I have to agree with you. I don't think you can consider a year a "career year" in the midst of it. You can suggest it might be a career year, but you can only actually know it is a career by virtue of seeing it in the context of an entire career.

Unassisted
08-10-2006, 11:25 PM
Would'nt hurt at this juncture to give him a start.Won't hurt now, but it'll hurt in a few years when he becomes a free agent one year sooner due to this shortsighted approach. Instead of starting his arb clock early so that Homer can get on-the-job training at the ML level, let him continue to mature and improve in the minors. That way, the Reds can enjoy more of his peak performance years .

cincrazy
08-10-2006, 11:37 PM
I think it's amazing how there are five times the post on this board after the team LOSES. The vultures on this board are really getting old. Where were you guys screaming this team was dead the last two nights? This team lacks in several areas, but one area it DOESN'T lack is heart. And they're not exactly in the AL. Every other team in the NL, including the Mets, have holes. Let it play out, and quit judging things one game at a time.

Betterread
08-10-2006, 11:47 PM
Harang is not having a career year. He was very good last year as well, and just got even better this year.

In 2005, he was 23rd in the NL in ERA, and (I speak for myself, at least) he exceeded all expectations. This year he is 12th in the NL in ERA and was averaging a strikeout an inning for the first time in his career. He is having an even better year in 2006 than he has ever had before. To keep up his production he would have to have an ERA in the top 10 in 2007, which would put him with the top pitchers in the NL; this would make him a true stopper, a real ace. I don't think Harang is a stopper, an ace. I think 2006 is his ceiling, which would make it a career year.

TeamBoone
08-10-2006, 11:47 PM
if any of you think our rotation/bullpen will get us deep into the playoffs or even the world series, i want your number cuz i wanna buy the drugs you are taking.

I can't speak for others, but I know I'm certainly not even thinking DEEP into the playoffs right now, much less the World Series.

I'm taking it one series at a time and hoping they hang in there and possibly make it to the playoffs.

And if they don't? Of course I'll be disappointed, but I'm not disappointed in how they're playing and I have no reason to believe that they won't be giving it their all right up until the end of September.

Compared to recent seasons past, they're doing a hell of a job and I, for one, love it!

TeamBoone
08-10-2006, 11:56 PM
In 2005, he was 23rd in the NL in ERA, and (I speak for myself, at least) he exceeded all expectations. This year he is 12th in the NL in ERA and was averaging a strikeout an inning for the first time in his career. He is having an even better year in 2006 than he has ever had before. To keep up his production he would have to have an ERA in the top 10 in 2007, which would put him with the top pitchers in the NL; this would make him a true stopper, a real ace. I don't think Harang is a stopper, an ace. I think 2006 is his ceiling, which would make it a career year.

But you don't know that at this point; no one does. He's consistently gotten better each year; who's to say he won't continue to do so next year?

That said, even if you are correct and this season is his ceiling, who's to say he won't continue to pitch just as well over the next several seasons (perhaps his entire career)? That would NOT make 2006 a career year, but rather, it would translate to his norm.

cincrazy
08-11-2006, 12:00 AM
I agree with you on several fronts TeamBoone. First of all, I don't have any aspirations about a deep playoff run either. It's clear that this team has obvious flaws, but a postseason berth would be a huge step forward for this franchise, regardless of the outcome.

Also, you're right, who's to say Harang won't get better? Guys like Matt Morris and even Chris Carpenter took a while to get their career's going, and got progressively better. It didn't happen over night exactly. Harang continues to mature, and although his stuff won't get any better, as the year's go on, he will learn more and more about pitching, and that's the most important part. I think Harang can be one of the best NL pitcher's for a while, and I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way. Arroyo's first half translates to a career year (although his hot streak didn't quite last a year). Harang's is the complete opposite.

Betterread
08-11-2006, 12:13 AM
But you don't know that at this point; no one does. He's consistently gotten better each year; who's to say he won't continue to do so next year?

That said, even if you are correct and this season is his ceiling, who's to say he won't continue to pitch just as well over the next several seasons (perhaps his entire career)? That would NOT make 2006 a career year, but rather, it would translate to his norm.

I hope you're right and your optimism is vindicated. I am concerned about how he is taking 100-120 pitches just to go 6-7 innings and I while his competitiveness is laudable, I just don't think he commands the talent that I look for in a true ace.

Johnny Footstool
08-11-2006, 12:27 AM
Were are threads like these after victories???

:dunno:

We were all so satisfied with the win that we forgot how poorly Harang pitched yesterday.

cincrazy
08-11-2006, 12:58 AM
He clearly didn't have his best stuff. I was glad to see him battle though. If Castro is in at SS, that first inning might have never happened. But no excuses, it was a bad pitch to a good hitter in Edmonds. He struggled all night, but did just enough to keep us around. He's lucky Carpenter was off his game.