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Newman4
08-12-2006, 12:49 AM
Not the intention, but the results. Is it pretty much consensus that it's one in the loss column?

snowstorm
08-12-2006, 12:53 AM
Unfortunately, I agree. Maybe next year this trade will look better, but it's not really helping us now. Majewski is on the DL and Bray is inconsistent. For now, I'd have to say Washington 1, Cincinnati 0.

goreds2
08-12-2006, 12:55 AM
Unfortunately, I agree. Maybe next year this trade will look better, but it's not really helping us now. Majewski is on the DL and Bray is inconsistent. For now, I'd have to say Washington 1, Cincinnati 0.

I agree.

Both guys are really young. The future is hopefully now though. :pray: :castellini:

ChatterRed
08-12-2006, 12:55 AM
Yeah, we were 1 game over .500 with Kearns and Lopez and now we're 3 games over .500. Sounds like a wash to me.

We got sold damaged goods. Not our fault. Bray's and Magic's numbers with Washington were good.

The problem with this team is that Dunn and Griffey aren't doing their part offensively.

reds1869
08-12-2006, 01:00 AM
The problem with this team is that Dunn and Griffey aren't doing their part offensively.

Surely you're not serious.

Wheelhouse
08-12-2006, 01:19 AM
Surely you're not serious.

Certainly not tonight: Dunn 0-6, 3Ks, 5 LOB. Poopie bad.

killuminati35
08-12-2006, 01:22 AM
Dunn had a bad night, it happens. The rest of the line-up besides EE had a bad night also. Dunn is hitting over .300 since the All-Star break, he just had a bad night.

As for the trade, I'm still undecided. Although, on nights when our offense completely sputters the trade does look pretty bad.

oregonred
08-12-2006, 01:22 AM
Bray is being overused as was pointed out by several on the ORG thread before the Phils scored.

He's not a guy that should be used in high leverage situations 4-5 times a week. He hasn't thrown many innings in pro ball. He'll be fine assuming his arm isn't broken.

So far the trade not looking great, but we have 48 other daily threads to rehash that :)

flynn78
08-12-2006, 01:30 AM
We got royally rogered on that deal.

traderumor
08-12-2006, 01:30 AM
Yes, the board has become two subjects--this one and Jerry Narron sucks when we lose. :deadhorse

reds1869
08-12-2006, 01:31 AM
Certainly not tonight: Dunn 0-6, 3Ks, 5 LOB. Poopie bad.

One night doesn't mean you deserve blame for something that is clearly not your fault.

flynn78
08-12-2006, 01:35 AM
One night doesn't mean you deserve blame for something that is clearly not your fault.

I agee Herd. It was a team loss, that Narron did not help with some of his decisions. The sun will rise tomorrow.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 04:40 AM
Not the intention, but the results. Is it pretty much consensus that it's one in the loss column?
How can you judge the results? Bray is 23 and Maj is 26 and injured, we may not know the results of this trade for years. So far yeah we're behind but this time next year it could be the opposite.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 09:25 AM
Not the intention, but the results. Is it pretty much consensus that it's one in the loss column?

Short answer...no.

I guess all the other times when Bray pitched well you were posting that this was a good trade based on that one performance? Nah.

And for giving all of our offense away via "the trade" we seemed to find a way to score a bunch in games 2 and 3 with St. Louis. And scored 5 last night (although we blew a number of scoring opportunities). The offense is streaky you say? Well, it was streaky before Ak and Lopez left so I don't see much change there.

"The trade" will apparently be debated until the end of time. That's fine, thats part of why Redszone exists. It should be debated. But to come out after every loss saying "see, see, the trade sucked" is silly IMO.

MaineRed
08-12-2006, 09:56 AM
I don't see any problem with the trade. The Reds got two guys that could be fixtures in their bullpen for years to come. They gave up two OK players but nothing special.

And they aren't really winning or losing anymore than they were before. The bullpen is still costing them some games but Rob Dibble cost us plenty of games. It happens, no matter who you have out there.

I really don't get the critism of this trade. Based on how adamant so many are, you'd think that the Nats were 15 games over since the trade and the Reds had totally tanked.

I see us winning and losing at about the same rate as we were before, except now I feel much better late in games. I don't feel totally confident or anything but I also don't feel like we have no chance because of an inept pen. The bullpen, the thing that was absolutely killing this team is much improved.

I honestly, for the life of me cannot figure out how anyone could look at the team, pre-trade and envision Kearns and Lopez hitting enough that they could make up for the horrid pen and do enough with the sticks to carry us to the play-offs.

They certainly aren't doing anything in Washington to make up for their horrible pitching nor are they doing anything to prove they are worth more than what the Reds got.

Notice how all the, "Felip and Austin did this or that" threads have died right down? That is because they aren't giving people anything to use as defense. That is why people want to continue to hammer home that we got junk.

Apparently our junk was worth something but Washington's was not. It makes no sense.

DannyB
08-12-2006, 09:57 AM
NO!! :thumbdown
But I didnt like Juan when he was here before.;)

Joseph
08-12-2006, 10:24 AM
What is this #1,654?

There used to be but two things in life that were guaranteed, death and taxes. Now you can add that when Bray or Majewski pitch poorly there will be a 'See the trade sucks' thread.

goreds2
08-12-2006, 10:31 AM
It's amazing what a reliable bullpen can do to affect a team and its surroundings. If the Reds bullpen finishes last nights game in regulation, Narron does not get hammered by us, no one mentions the trade, no one mentions HOMER BAILEY, our starting rotation does not get screwed up and I probably "get lucky" but the wife fell asleep during the EXTRA INNINGS. :angry:

westofyou
08-12-2006, 10:32 AM
It's amazing what a reliable bullpen can do to affect a team and its surroundings.Yeah like going 9-20 from 6-9-7-9 eh?

traderumor
08-12-2006, 01:29 PM
I believe one thing that is continually missed in any of these discussions is the late inning comeback becoming such a huge part of the game throughout baseball. The Reds are not an anomoly, but the late inning comeback is commonplace in the game, is it not?

And we have seen the formula result in a World Championship ourselves, ala the Nasty Boys in 1990, who used several different arms and several different looks to regularly stave off the late inning rally. As frustrating as it is, a shutdown bullpen is what true contenders must have, in any era.

It seems to me that it would behoove any organization who wants to succeed in this era to devote more of their resources to bullpen construction instead of trying to get away cheaply and to rely on good dice rolls in this area. And that does not simply mean throwing dollars at volatile "proven veteran" reliever arms, but also drafting and developing relievers in the minors, instead of trying everyone in the rotation and then pegging the rejects as "relievers." Or, trying to strike gold off the scrap heap. I think a competitive advantage is ripe for any team that develops an organizational philosophy for growing relievers on trees. Right now, everyone is primarily trying to pay for past success or throwing crap at the wall with hopes of some sticking. Until then, most of MLB fandom will be having bullpen hangovers like the one that Reds fans undoubtedly have this morning.

You can already see a trickle of this philosophy with the drafting of college relievers in high rounds and quick trips through the minors. I would contend that the team that turns on the faucet in this area will be greatly rewarded throughout their organization and will be able to use their bullpen to both win games at the major league level and as trading chips to acquire other needs for the big club.

Heath
08-12-2006, 01:48 PM
It's amazing what a reliable bullpen can do to affect a team and its surroundings. If the Reds bullpen finishes last nights game in regulation, Narron does not get hammered by us, no one mentions the trade, no one mentions HOMER BAILEY, our starting rotation does not get screwed up and I probably "get lucky" but the wife fell asleep during the EXTRA INNINGS. :angry:

Dude, this just in - baseball is not THAT important. Get the TV out of the bedroom. Snuggle the hell out of her. Its worth it. If its the seventh game of a World Series, maybe there is some leeway. But not some 14 inning game.


Yes, the board has become two subjects--this one and Jerry Narron sucks when we lose. :deadhorse:


Don't forget EdE's benching either! :D

Oh by the way, I'm still ok with the trade. And Kearns and Lopez are still bouncing around DC, nothing spectacular or earth-shattering. Just mid-pack major leaguers.

reds44
08-12-2006, 01:51 PM
no

gonelong
08-12-2006, 04:05 PM
... and I probably "get lucky" but the wife fell asleep during the EXTRA INNINGS. :angry:

Dude, get a DVR - you make your own luck. ;)

GL

MartyFan
08-12-2006, 04:10 PM
I think the trade has a chance to look good...or at least better than it does right this minute over the next year or so.

Also don't forget the prospect we got from the Nationals.

I still think Special K has done an outstanding job with all the moves he has made and I don't know of any HOF player, GM, Owner, etc that ever batted 1.000, .750, .500, .450 or better...so far I think he has been right on and done better than expected about .700.

Ravenlord
08-12-2006, 04:12 PM
can we merge every new thread about "The Trade" into this one?

redsfanmia
08-12-2006, 05:32 PM
I love the trade and would do it again every day of the week and twice on sundays. You picked up two arms and a very good prospect for and overweight overhyped outfielder and an average shortstop who struggled defensively who were both due big raises at the end of the year. Just dumping those two and changing the clubhouse makes it a win trade.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 07:11 PM
can we merge every new thread about "The Trade" into this one?

:thumbup:

Put it up on a sticky and let the never ending debate roll on!

lawnboy33
08-12-2006, 07:28 PM
Im so sick of people defending the trade! "oh they are just young , be patient".. Well Im mnot patient! We could be up 7 games right now but we aren't! are we?? This trade was suppose to help our bp and get us into playoff contention.. Well? Exactly ! We are no better than we were are we? Next year we may not be in this position . Bray well he sucks! Majic the excuse of his arm being bad well I dont buy it. We totally got screwed on that deal , WK suck it up apologize, admit you up and lets do this. Griffey has to be benched for a few games , moved to number 6 spot and put in right field. I dont care if he doesnt like it . Life s not fair sometimes is it? Clayton well make him a ball boy lol Bring rich in at ss and dont I REPEAT dont start ramirez! He has lost all confidence and is done for the year. Bring up HOMER and lets get this rolling!

Other than that Im pretty happy with the team.. Narron dont walk the bases loaded with nobody out . That was sooooo stupid!!

Always Red
08-12-2006, 07:34 PM
I love the trade and would do it again every day of the week and twice on sundays. You picked up two arms and a very good prospect for and overweight overhyped outfielder and an average shortstop who struggled defensively who were both due big raises at the end of the year. Just dumping those two and changing the clubhouse makes it a win trade.
Yes, I still like the trade, too.

I liked Kearns and Lopez, but we were going nowhere with them and no bullpen pitching. Cast had to make a move to try to win now- he wants to win right now, and I admire the heck out of that. The 3 arms we got back were highly thought of, and Maj has been hurt and Bray struggled over the last 3 games, but the bullpen is really light years ahead of where it was.

Pitching is something that you evaluate over the long haul, not a 2 or 3 week stretch. If, in the middle of next year, these guys are all busts, then yes, the trade was a poor one. But it was better than trying to continue with Coffey, Mercker and Weathers being overworked and Hammond and White getting pounded.

I still think, after watching Lohse pitch twice, that he would be a heck of a closer. He seems to have the temperment, the "edge," the "attitude" that one would need for the job as well. Plus, he has really good stuff.

dman
08-12-2006, 07:40 PM
No matter what you think of the trade, it happened. Yes we did get the shaft by Jimbo on this one, but the problems are much deeper. The offense is Jekyll and Hyde right now. I'm really starting to think we'll be T.U. the rest of this season.

traderumor
08-12-2006, 11:28 PM
Im so sick of people defending the trade! "oh they are just young , be patient".. Well Im mnot patient! We could be up 7 games right now but we aren't! are we?? This trade was suppose to help our bp and get us into playoff contention.. Well? Exactly ! We are no better than we were are we? Next year we may not be in this position . Bray well he sucks! Majic the excuse of his arm being bad well I dont buy it. We totally got screwed on that deal , WK suck it up apologize, admit you fu***d up and lets do this. Griffey has to be benched for a few games , moved to number 6 spot and put in right field. I dont care if he doesnt like it . Life s not fair sometimes is it? Clayton well make him a ball boy lol Bring rich in at ss and dont I REPEAT dont start ramirez! He has lost all confidence and is done for the year. Bring up HOMER and lets get this rolling!

Other than that Im pretty happy with the team.. Narron dont walk the bases loaded with nobody out . That was sooooo stupid!!
I think you dialed the wrong number. It's 1-800-THE-BIG1. Tracy Jones is anxiously awaiting the call.

Newman4
08-13-2006, 10:28 PM
Uh, some of you need to just answer the question. I asked what I thought was a good question to ask considering that all parties involved in "the trade" hav had a chance to play some for their new teams. I appreciate those of you with insightful comments and not just whining and moaning about the thread.


I guess all the other times when Bray pitched well you were posting that this was a good trade based on that one performance? Nah.

I haven't posted at all about the trade since right after it happened. No need to be an ass.


How can you judge the results? Bray is 23 and Maj is 26 and injured, we may not know the results of this trade for years. So far yeah we're behind but this time next year it could be the opposite.

I should have rephrased my question "Does anyone STILL like the trade to this point?" My fault there. I have a hard time seeing how the results thus far have been positive and feel as though many feel like the Reds could have done better. Majewski is hurt, Bray less than impressive and Rolls Royce is Rolls Royce. Just my opinion.

Unassisted
08-13-2006, 10:54 PM
I stll like it.

The bullpen is better since the trade. Bray isn't perfect, but he makes the bullpen better.

Majewski may turn out to be OK, when he isn't injured. He wasn't healthy at any point while he wore a Reds uniform, so it isn't fair to gauge him on that performance. This club will need good bullpen help next year, too.

Some people hate the addition of Clayton, but I don't. The Clayton and Castro platoon is productive and effective.

The thing that most disappoints me post-trade is that Denorfia didn't rise to the challenge when the opportunity to be the starting RF presented itself. That was a golden opportunity that the guy failed to capitalize on. Now his future with the club is a big question mark.

KoryMac5
08-14-2006, 12:31 AM
I like the team we have now with Freel and Phillips giving us speed. Dunn, Griffey, and Edwin supply the power. Richie and Hat continue to deliver at a steady rate. The bullpen has been a sore spot not as bad as when we had White and Ham out their but still pretty shaky. Bray will be up and down but I like his stuff and for being a couple of years removed from college I think he will be special. He pitched 2 nice innings of work today and Jerry has been using him with confidence in all situations. Maj has been awful can't sugarcoat that one, hopefully when he comes off the DL we will see what we have. The big reason I defend the trade is because it gave us added flexibility in the pen instead of running the same guys out night after night. Plus it added speed and flexibility to the lineup with the addition of Freel moving in to an everyday spot. I like the makeup of this team and I feel we are catching the Cards at the right time.

mbgrayson
08-14-2006, 02:08 AM
I still have some hope it will work out ok.

Since the trade, the Reds are 16 wins, 13 losses. This is a .552 winning percentage.

Before the trade, we were 45 wins, 44 losses. This is a .506 winning percentage.

This difference in winning percentage would equal about three extra wins this year, which could easily make the difference in making the playoffs.

And that is with Majewski hurt....and Deno in AAA now. Of course we have added other players in the mix.

We are down about .25 run scored per game. Some of this may be losing Kearns and Lopez, but some of it is Jr. slumping (.214 since the trade) and Ross's average and HR rate dropping off(.171 w/ 2 HR since the trade). Also Brandon Phillips second half is down, .252 since the break. Encarnacion, Rich, and the Hat are hot, and Dunn's average is up, but his HR rate is down a bit.

The thing that is amazing is that we are still in first in the WC despite our starting pitching's decline. At one point, we were near the best in ERA for our starters. Now, we are near last.

Overall pitching ERA has dropped from 4.78 to 4.71, despite Arroyo's slump, the Lizard's collapse, and Joe May's fiasco.

If Arroyo can get get even lukewarm, the bullpen settles down with Belisle coming back and Majewski healed up, and the team keeps hitting, we have a good chance at post-season.

reds44
08-14-2006, 02:11 AM
Are Ross and Phillips in a slump or are they just returning to their means?

guttle11
08-14-2006, 02:13 AM
Since the trade, the Reds are 16 wins, 13 losses. This is a .552 winning percentage.

Before the trade, we were 45 wins, 44 losses. This is a .506 winning percentage.



This is the only thing that should matter. I still LOVE the trade. Now imagine this,without this trade, EE rarely sees the field. EE playing everyday>Lopez. Freel is producing rather well, especially in the field.

I may be all alone, but I still like it.

KronoRed
08-14-2006, 05:30 AM
Are Ross and Phillips in a slump or are they just returning to their means?
Ross maybe, Phillips really doesn't have any norms to go back too.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 09:47 AM
How can you judge the results? Bray is 23 and Maj is 26 and injured, we may not know the results of this trade for years. So far yeah we're behind but this time next year it could be the opposite.

But this trade was made to help us win this year. Two of the guys we got haven't contributed anything. Bray has helped in spots, but he's not the lights out setup man we were promised. Meanwhile Kearns and Lopez are hitting well in Wash.

There's no way Bray was worth Kearns and Lopez. Wayne overpaid about 10 fold what he should've for bullpen help. What Maj and Bray do next year doesn't matter to me, because we could've gotten guys similiar to Maj and Bray for a LOT less in the offseason.

As an example, if Hernandez doesn't win any of his starts for the Diamondbacks, doesn't that automatically make it a bad trade for them as well? Sure, he's older, but they are going to have him for 2007 as well.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 09:53 AM
Since the trade, the Reds are 16 wins, 13 losses. This is a .552 winning percentage.

Before the trade, we were 45 wins, 44 losses. This is a .506 winning percentage.
.

But since the trade, Coffey and Weathers have pitched a lot better. We'll never know if they would've rebounded without the trade. Also, if we didn't make the trade, maybe we'd have 17 wins. There's too many variables to use "team record since the trade" to evaluate the trade.

But we can look at how the guys that arrived are performing, and see that they haven't been pulling their weight. Bray has been good at times, but was his approximate 8-12 "good innings" worth what we gave up?

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:19 PM
Didn't like it then, don't like it now. I see the upside of it, just don't think much of it is all.

Used PROPERLY, Shack is lights out against LH hitters. Virtually unhittable this year.

Used PROPERLY Standridge is lights out against RH hitters. Virtually unhittable this year.

There were a number of pitchers in AA and AAA that could have helped in the pen. I don't have a huge problem with prospects traded for ML talent, though I think the Ward/Lohse trade might haunt Reds fans for years, I can more easily accept that than NOT exploring in-house options that don't cost the Reds major offensive talent for middling returns.

Handofdeath
08-14-2006, 12:24 PM
Meanwhile Kearns and Lopez are hitting well in Wash.

Actually Lopez is hitting in Washington pretty much what he did in Cincy this season. That is to say he's not exactly hitting great but ok and fielding worse.

Kearns however is NOT hitting well. .244 avg .378 obp .344 slg .817 ops

Truth be told Kearns and Lopez haven't exactly done much to make the Reds look stupid for trading them.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 12:34 PM
How can you judge the results? Bray is 23 and Maj is 26 and injured, we may not know the results of this trade for years. So far yeah we're behind but this time next year it could be the opposite.

That's a nice justification for a deal made to improve the team in the years ahead. However, when the deal was made I kept hearing people tell me that this was a deal made for NOW. About how the the Reds needed immediate bullpen help, and that's why the deal was made in July rather than November.

So, you are partially correct: the deal *might* prove beneficial to the Reds in the long term, yes. But as far as immediate help? Guardado, Cormier, Franklin and Michalak have had more of an impact on this pen than Bray or Majewski. And Clayton has seemingly played his way out of a starting spot he didn't deserve to begin with.

If this trade was designed to benefit the Reds this season, it has not succeeded in that regard.

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:35 PM
Except that Clayton is an offensive and defensive black hole at SS. His suckitude leaves ripples in the space time continuum.

Majewski probably won't pitch again until Sept. at the earliest. Bray has been alternating good/bad.

What exactly have Maj/Bray done to stabilize the pen? nothing.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 12:36 PM
Meanwhile Kearns and Lopez are hitting well in Wash.

Both aren't slugging and Lopez his a mess in the field, 7 errors in 235 innings and a .735 fielding%, meanwhile Kearns as a CF lasted about 10 minutes.

Got anymore spin you want to put on it?

westofyou
08-14-2006, 12:39 PM
What exactly have Maj/Bray done to stabilize the pen? nothing.Helped slow down attrition of the BP, spreading innings around that before only Coffey and Weathers could take.(and GM will help in September)

Hey but that's cool... evidently the trade was only about how well Kearns and Lopez can hit, since that seems to be the only thing that ever gets mentioned when discussioning the deal.

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:40 PM
Both aren't slugging and Lopez his a mess in the field, 7 errors in 235 innings and a .735 fielding%, meanwhile Kearns as a CF lasted about 10 minutes.

Got anymore spin you want to put on it?

Few players not named Soriano slug in that park. Lopez is getting on at a .375 clip. I'll take that from just about anywhere in the lineup, especially if I can move him to 2B. regardless of what we think could have happened, it was never tried. It should have at least been tried for a few games.

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:44 PM
Helped slow down attrition of the BP, spreading innings around that before only Coffey and Weathers could take.(and GM will help in September)

Hey but that's cool... evidently the trade was only about how well Kearns and Lopez can hit, since that seems to be the only thing that ever gets mentioned when discussioning the deal.

Exept Maj couldn't retire anyone, so not only was attrition not slowed when he pitched, it was accelerated. And the trade was so good, Kriv aquired 3 more relievers afterwards. When all he had to do beforehand was look at Shack and Standridge's splits.

But apparently the trade was only about the stabilization of the pen that Maj/Bray did not provide, regardless of how many times you say they did.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 12:48 PM
When all he had to do beforehand was look at Shack and Standridge's splits.Don't foget calling up all those AA relievers too....

RedsManRick
08-14-2006, 12:50 PM
Ah, the classic trade where both teams lose...

westofyou
08-14-2006, 12:50 PM
if I can move him to 2B. regardless of what we think could have happened, it was never tried. It should have at least been tried for a few games.

Well they did try it the other years, and I bet he played there some in AAA.


SECOND BASE
YEAR TEAM AGE G PO A E DP PCT RANGE
2003 Reds 23 3 3 4 1 1 .875 2.33
2004 Reds 24 2 1 1 1 1 .667 1.00
2005 Reds 25 7 15 11 0 4 1.000 3.71
TOTALS 12 19 16 2 6 .946 2.92

registerthis
08-14-2006, 12:50 PM
Helped slow down attrition of the BP, spreading innings around that before only Coffey and Weathers could take.(and GM will help in September)

How has Majewski helped anything? Bray's been OK, but Guardado, Franklin, Cormier, and (now) Michalak have all also helped slow the attrition of the BP, and all at a far lesser cost.

I'm not convinced Majewski will help us this year at all, though having him come back in September healthy would certainly be a boon to this club.

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:55 PM
Don't foget calling up all those AA relievers too....

Please enlighten me as to why any one of those guys I mentioned (2 at AA, 3 at AAA) would be a worse option than Majewski/Bray?

Oh that's right, because the talent evaluators in the Reds org said so. right. the same talent evaluators that traded for Juan Castro. And Yan. And Joe Freaking Mays. The same group that traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross, and got basically nothing in return for him. right. those guys.

TRF
08-14-2006, 12:57 PM
Well they did try it the other years, and I bet he played there some in AAA.


SECOND BASE
YEAR TEAM AGE G PO A E DP PCT RANGE
2003 Reds 23 3 3 4 1 1 .875 2.33
2004 Reds 24 2 1 1 1 1 .667 1.00
2005 Reds 25 7 15 11 0 4 1.000 3.71
TOTALS 12 19 16 2 6 .946 2.92

Except the then starting SS and possible future HOF had all but declared Lopez his heir. plus there was no leadership whatsoever from the manager or the GM position. Nice that you missed that though.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2006, 01:00 PM
Yeah like going 9-20 from 6-9-7-9 eh?

They went 17-20 leading up to the break, as SteelSD pointed out on one of the many other "trade" threads.

It all depends on where you want to start measuring.

Handofdeath
08-14-2006, 01:00 PM
Few players not named Soriano slug in that park.

The Nationals team has two other full time players that are slugging over .500 at home.

Nick Johnson .551 at home
Ryan Zimmerman .519 at home.

It's not the park. Kearns isn't hitting.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 01:01 PM
Oh that's right, because the talent evaluators in the Reds org said so. right. the same talent evaluators that traded for Juan Castro. And Yan. And Joe Freaking Mays. The same group that traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross, and got basically nothing in return for him. right. those guys

Ship of fools I guess, ah well... been down this road before.


BTW Cody Ross, .209/.260/.433/.693, and FWIW Castro got a key double in yeaterdays game, has an .844 OPS and has only taken 1.4% of the Reds total at bats this season. Maybe he's on the juice?:laugh:

I like the other Ross better myself, same folks got him that dealt Cody, go figure.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 01:03 PM
Except the then starting SS and possible future HOF had all but declared Lopez his heir. plus there was no leadership whatsoever from the manager or the GM position. Nice that you missed that though.
Missed what? I'm just throwing thsoe up there for you to see, I have no idea what went wrong there. I also could care less if Larkin annoited Lopez SS, that ship has sailed.

SteelSD
08-14-2006, 01:04 PM
Exept Maj couldn't retire anyone, so not only was attrition not slowed when he pitched, it was accelerated. And the trade was so good, Kriv aquired 3 more relievers afterwards. When all he had to do beforehand was look at Shack and Standridge's splits.

But apparently the trade was only about the stabilization of the pen that Maj/Bray did not provide, regardless of how many times you say they did.

I checked that claim out as well. Gary Majewski has contributed to a winning effort without giving up an Earned Run exactly once since the Reds acquired him. His Reds stint has produced a 2.64 WHIP and a 1.224 OPSA. Bray has, for the most part, been a fractional Innings guy who's required help to pull his butt from the fire. He's averaging 18.3 P/IP, a 1.84 WHIP, and a .917 OPSA during his time with the Reds.

What the Reds needed from both pitchers to actually slow bullpen attrition was what Bray produced yesterday: consistent 0 ER 1+ Inning stints. They've received anything but.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 01:09 PM
What the Reds needed from both pitchers to actually slow bullpen attrition was what Bray produced yesterday: consistent 0 ER 1+ Inning stints. They've received anything but.Yeah but Kearns and Lopez were too expensive :rolleyes:

I wonder what they could have been turned into in the off-season or it WK had just waited a couple of weeks.

jimbo
08-14-2006, 01:14 PM
Yeah but Kearns and Lopez were too expensive :rolleyes:

I wonder what they could have been turned into in the off-season or it WK had just waited a couple of weeks.

From all indications, the Reds have been dangling Kearns out there since last fall and haven't gotten many decent offers, at least none attractive enough to bite on.

Lopez is not having an eye opening season. With Boras now his agent, I wonder how many teams would have been willing to deal for him?

westofyou
08-14-2006, 01:15 PM
They went 17-20 leading up to the break, as SteelSD pointed out on one of the many other "trade" threads.

It all depends on where you want to start measuring.
True, April was the best month, it skews the data, the Reds were 17-8. From May -1st to the AS break and the begining of all the moves they were 28-36. Since the AS break they are 16-13.

Good months can save a season, wa sApril the on that saved the Reds season? In 2000 the Reds were 68-66 on 8/24 and 8 back, they went 18-10 for September to save their season. The Reds play the Pirates who can't hit nine more times this season, that can save their season.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 01:16 PM
The Reds play the Pirates who can't hit nine more times this season, that can save their season. or break it.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 01:23 PM
or break it.
Teetering over the abyss is the rush, being in any pennant race at this point is good for the team. The culture of the team has changed in the eyes of the industry (despite all the questions about ithe trades) players around the league notice that, not the stat lines of our back and forths. With new ownership the word on the street is either

A. They're a different organization now with new ownership, I like that

or

B. They are nuts...

Next off season when players on the market think of the Reds they will now have a diffrent POV, chances are they don't read RZ or BP and they'll look at choice A.

"War Is the Health of the State"

In this case the war is the pennant race and the state is the Reds franchise.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 01:25 PM
My point was the Reds pitching really isn't the type that can dominate teams(outside of Harang and Arroyo against RHBs). This weekend Arroyo will be missing the lineup full of RH hitters that is currently the Pirates. Be interesting to see if the Reds pitch Michalak against them (think Randy Keisler) or go with Franklin.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2006, 01:41 PM
True, April was the best month, it skews the data, the Reds were 17-8. From May -1st to the AS break and the begining of all the moves they were 28-36. Since the AS break they are 16-13.

Good months can save a season, wa sApril the on that saved the Reds season? In 2000 the Reds were 68-66 on 8/24 and 8 back, they went 18-10 for September to save their season. The Reds play the Pirates who can't hit nine more times this season, that can save their season.

It's all about streaks. This year's pre-break swoon featured the Reds going 1-5 vs. the Brewers, 1-3 vs. the Cubs, and 1-3 vs. Atlanta. That's a miserable 3-11 for those counting at home.

Most of the Reds remaining games are vs. either wildcard contenders (Dodgers & San Diego) or familiar NL Central opponents (Houston, Chicago, and Pittsburgh). If they can continue to beat up on their NL Central bretheren, they can print playoff tickets.

TRF
08-14-2006, 01:43 PM
Missed what? I'm just throwing thsoe up there for you to see, I have no idea what went wrong there. I also could care less if Larkin annoited Lopez SS, that ship has sailed.

yeah, kinda. but when you point out that the reds tried Lopez at second WITHOUT looking at the overall picture, thats disingenuous.

FACT. After Bowden aquired him in 2003, the FO became a very volatile place. Bowden was let go. Boone was let go. An interim manager, Dave Miley was in place and needed a good performance just to keep his job. Not exactly the time to try something new.

FACT. In 2004, FeLo suffered a career threatening injury. That he's even playing at all is something of a miracle. He missed half the season.

Exactly when did the Reds have a guy like BP in the system to urge the switch? Why move Lopez to 2B to make room for Rey Olmedo?

Ya know what? I like David Ross and Brandon Phillips too. I think both were really good moves for the org. And they would be shrewd moves too had the not seemingly been lost in the plethora of head scratchers that Krivsky has pulled. I'll say it again: Krivsky is like a fantasy baseball GM: he makes a ton of moves and hopes each is a gem. a few have been. MOST have not.

Ross yes.

Phillips yes, though May and July were AWFUL offensively, his defense has been outstanding.

Arroyo Yes for the first half, but he's stunk for quite some time now. Only 2 starts in his last 8 has he allowed fewer than 4 runs. In 5 of those starts he has given up 5 or more runs. He was flat bad in July. He's been worse in August. I said at the break he was coming back to earth. He hit harder than even I thought he would.

But how many players did he miss on? Yan, Mays, Q, Hollandsworth, Majewski, Clayton, Cody Ross... Trading Germano when you have no depth in the rotation. Not that I think Germano has tremendous upside, but the trade made no sense.

That's the problem I have with the FO. It seems to be more of a reactive rather than proactive FO.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Arroyo Yes for the first have, but he's stunk for quite some time now. Only 2 starts in his last 8 has he allowed fewer than 4 runs. In 5 of those starts he has given up 5 or more runs. He was flat bad in July. He's been worse in August. I said at the break he was coming back to earth. He hit harder than even I thought he would.teams have simply figured out that you put every LHB possible in the lineup when Arroyo pitches because the splits are so large. In addition they have become familiar with his patterns(such as almost every time he gets ahead 0-2 he throws a fastball up and out of the zone) and his stuff.

mbgrayson
08-14-2006, 02:31 PM
There's too many variables to use "team record since the trade" to evaluate the trade.

But we can look at how the guys that arrived are performing, and see that they haven't been pulling their weight. Bray has been good at times, but was his approximate 8-12 "good innings" worth what we gave up?

Lets compare production in the two positions where we 'gave up' players, shortstop and rightfield.

Since the all star break/ trade/ abt. last 30 days:

Lopez- 2 HR, .269 avg., .369 OBP, 8 steals and 4 caught stealing, 6 errors, and a .941 fielding percentage

Clayton- 2 HR, .238 avg., .289 OBP, 4 steals and 2 caught stealing, 3 errors, and a .967 fielding percentage

Kearns- 1 HR, .244 avg., .378 OBP, 1 steal and 3 caught stealing, 2 errors and a .973 fielding percentage

Freel- 2 HR, .279 avg., .398 OBP, 7 steals and 2 caught stealing, 1 error, and a .984 fielding percentage (and several GREAT catches Kearns would not have made)

Overall, it looks to me like we are UP offensively over what Kearns and Lopez have done offensively, while also getting better defense. This doen's even take into account pitching, which has not yielded anything good from Majewski, and erratic results from Bray.

It also doesn't take into account the value of getting Freel into right instead of third base, where EE and Aurillia have been hitting very well. If Freel were still in the 3rd base mix, we wouldn't have him AND EE/Aurillia all playing.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 02:37 PM
Lets compare production in the two positions where we 'gave up' players, shortstop and rightfield.
that misses the point entirely.

Those two players were traded for what to this point is almost nothing in return, as Majewski was worse than awful and Bray has been decidedly mediocre at best.

The question what could those two likely been flipped for at the deadline or in the off season? Without a doubt the answer is a lot more than Bray and Majewski because Clayton, Harris and likely Thompson will never have any value.

Reds1
08-14-2006, 02:40 PM
It also doesn't take into account the value of getting Freel into right instead of third base, where EE and Aurillia have been hitting very well. If Freel were still in the 3rd base mix, we wouldn't have him AND EE/Aurillia all playing.

I think getting Freel in there is the key to the deal. No ones talks about this, but Freel has probably won single handedly 3-4 games for us that kearns probably would have not. I'd say Bray has been a decent addition too! He has 2-3 saves and overall you can see he's going to be a good one.

I compare this to Philly. Get rid of Abreu and look what the replacements do. They seem to be a better team trading their best guy and a good pitcher or at least an ok pitcher. :)

On the surface this trade doesn't look that good, but the our role players were actually better then the starters. Also, I think Castro's stats need to be added to the SS above. He's done a fine job and added a few Homers and 2 key game winning hits. Not to mention some amazing defense. This team is better after the trade and potentially this trade could be awesome if we get a healthy magic and maybe Harris is a sept. call up. who knows.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 02:43 PM
I think getting Freel in there is the key to the deal. but that wasn't the way th deal was posited when it went down. Denorfia was coming up to play a lot of RF and Freel's role wasn't to appreciably change. That Freel has stepped forward and took the everyday job and Denorfia flopped has to be viewed a fluke and was not the outcome the Reds foresaw when they made the deal. Denorfia was coming up to take over in RF because it was "his time".

BTW, there is nothing special about Majewski, healthy of not. I don't buy the theory that JimBo pulled a fast one on the Reds. I think it was a more of a face saving initiative on the current FO to head off crticism of a deal gone bad.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 02:45 PM
They certainly aren't doing anything in Washington to make up for their horrible pitching nor are they doing anything to prove they are worth more than what the Reds got.

Notice how all the, "Felip and Austin did this or that" threads have died right down? That is because they aren't giving people anything to use as defense. That is why people want to continue to hammer home that we got junk.

Apparently our junk was worth something but Washington's was not. It makes no sense.

Kearns and Lopez are not junk. IMO, it's irrelevant what Kearns and Lopez do in Washington after the trade. What matters is what they they were worth at the time of the trade, and what we got for them. That's the same reason why the Neagle to the Yankees trade was bad. We had a very marketable commodity and settled for a lot less than what we could've gotten.

If Austin and Felipe crashed into each other in their first game in Washington and the collision ended both of their careers, this would still be a bad trade.

So, what did we get for Kearn and Lopez? About 10-12 good innings of Bray, and some blown games by Maj, and horrible play by Clayton.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Actually Lopez is hitting in Washington pretty much what he did in Cincy this season. That is to say he's not exactly hitting great but ok and fielding worse.

Kearns however is NOT hitting well. .244 avg .378 obp .344 slg .817 ops
.



About a week or so, Kearns was OPS 837... Right about his career average. So he had a bad week or two. It happens. He's still posting a nice OBP, and RFK might be depressing his slugging..

It's not as if Kearns is tanking (like Maj did).



Truth be told Kearns and Lopez haven't exactly done much to make the Reds look stupid for trading them.

What have Maj and Clayton done to make the Reds look smart? Even Bray hasn't been a world beater. He's had about 10 nice IP, and several shakey appearances. For a trade that was done to "win now", it's paying poor dividends.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 02:54 PM
Both aren't slugging and Lopez his a mess in the field, 7 errors in 235 innings and a .735 fielding%, meanwhile Kearns as a CF lasted about 10 minutes.

Got anymore spin you want to put on it?


1. KEarns is at 817 OPS right now.. A couple weeks ago, he was at 837, which was about his career average.

2. I never said anything about Lopez's fielding.. Note: I said "Kearns and Lopez are hitting well". Since you bring it up now: How about that Clayton defense?

3. Look at what we got in return. Keep "spinning" that 10 quality innings from Bray are worth Kearns and Lopez. I had no problem with trading Kearns and Lopez for a fair return. We got hosed. Heck Maj has cost us several games all by himself.

tsj017
08-14-2006, 02:54 PM
Has anyone considered that maybe that deal was the best we could get for Kearns and Lopez?

Maybe we really didn't give up all that much.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 02:56 PM
Has anyone considered that maybe that deal was the best we could get for Kearns and Lopez?

Maybe we really didn't give up all that much.I'm sure Texas would have taken them for Cordero. He brings a lot more to Milwaukee than Majewski/Bray combined.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 02:58 PM
IMO, it's irrelevant what Kearns and Lopez do in Washington after the trade. What matters is what they they were worth at the time of the trade, and what we got for them.

Why's is it irrelevent? Their performance after the trade will redefine their worth after they left the Reds, that in itself validates what their worth is on the marketplace, real or assumed.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:00 PM
I never said anything about Lopez's fielding.

Of course you didn't what can be said?

I also never said carp about Clayton, who is a bust... and a throw in.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 03:00 PM
Has anyone considered that maybe that deal was the best we could get for Kearns and Lopez?

There's no way to know for sure, but I will say this much: had the Reds waited until after the season to pull the trigger on this deal, I'm strongly of the opinion that they could have gotten more than a broken-down middle reliever, a washed-up aging shortstop, and a relief prospect.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:03 PM
Why's is it irrelevent? Their performance after the trade will redefine their worth after they left the Reds, that in itself validates what their worth is on the marketplace, real or assumed.but it does not change what their worth was at the time of the trade. The really issue is that there were a number of other guys that teams traded that could have helped the Reds more than Majewski/Bray(Cordero, Accardo, Wickman, Hernandez, Baez etc).

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:04 PM
had the Reds waited until after the season to pull the trigger on this deal, I'm strongly of the opinion that they could have gotten more than a broken-down middle reliever, a washed-up aging shortstop, and a relief prospect.

They got another relief prospects and a 26 year old AAA MI too.

If the Reds waited where would they be in the standings? That's almost as big a mystery as what would they have gotten if they waited to shop those two in the off season.

princeton
08-14-2006, 03:05 PM
no trade is worth so much whining

that said, Krivsky read the situation properly as the Reds are still scoring, the Reds are still in a race, the fans have shown up, and the bullpen has been in a position to effect a huge number of games.

Pitcher got hurt, which is always license to whine. Pitchers get hurt a lot-- but it's important to keep trading for pitchers. It's the right way.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:05 PM
The really issue is that there were a number of other guys that teams traded that could have helped the Reds more than Majewski/Bray(Cordero, Accardo, Wickman, Hernandez, Baez etc).Maybe, there is also age, potential, trade vetos, team matchups, contracts, and service time in that bucket too.

dabvu2498
08-14-2006, 03:06 PM
They got another relief prospects and a 26 year old AAA MI too.

Actually Daryl Thompson is a starter.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:07 PM
Majewski was never the answer to any problem the Reds had and I said so when the deal went down and Bray was more potential than performance at that point.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:07 PM
Helped slow down attrition of the BP, spreading innings around that before only Coffey and Weathers could take.(and GM will help in September) .


Yeah, that Maj was just what the pen needed :laugh:

We could've called anyone up from AAA and gotten the "contribution" Maj gave us.



Hey but that's cool... evidently the trade was only about how well Kearns and Lopez can hit, since that seems to be the only thing that ever gets mentioned when discussioning the deal.

No, the issue most people have is that we traded 2 above average position players for essentially Bray, in a "win now" trade.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:08 PM
Actually Daryl Thompson is a starter.and an guy coming off arm surgery and pitching in the GCL. Harris will never be anything more than bench fodder,those types are a dime a dozen.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:09 PM
Maybe, there is also age, potential, trade vetos, team matchups, contracts, and service time in that bucket too.middle relievers that don't miss bats are simply replaceable parts.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 03:11 PM
If the Reds waited where would they be in the standings? That's almost as big a mystery as what would they have gotten if they waited to shop those two in the off season.

Probably not too far off from where they are now. The combined contributions of Majewski/Bray/Clayton since joining the Reds haven't exactly been saving our season. It's a mistake to simply look at the bullpen numbers across the board and declare that this trade helped the team. Guardado, Cormier, Lohse, Franklin, and Michalak have had more to do with the Reds' recent success than any of the players received in the Kearns/Lopez deal.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 03:12 PM
Pitcher got hurt, which is always license to whine. Pitchers get hurt a lot-- but it's important to keep trading for pitchers. It's the right way.

No, it's important to trade for good pitchers, not bullpen filler.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:13 PM
Guardado, Cormier, Lohse, Franklin, and Michalak have had more to do with the Reds' recent success than any of the players received in the Kearns/Lopez deal.You can strike Cormier from the list, he has done nothing to help since becoming a Red.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:13 PM
From all indications, the Reds have been dangling Kearns out there since last fall and haven't gotten many decent offers, at least none attractive enough to bite on.

Lopez is not having an eye opening season. With Boras now his agent, I wonder how many teams would have been willing to deal for him?

Well DanO turned down Cliff Lee for Kearns two years ago. We've heard Westbrook's name as well. Consider that Wayne's initial trade was Kearns for Maj straight up. It would not be hard at all to beat that one.

I don't care if Boras is Lopez's agent. He can't be a free agent until after 2008 (I believe). Boras can cry and stomp his feet all he wants, but Lopez is under the same arbitration rules as everyone else.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:13 PM
Majewski was never the answer to any problem the Reds had
In one way he was, he's allowed a scant 17 HR's in 379 Innings over the past 4 seasons, that's a nice ratio of 1 every 22 IP, the Reds BP currently allows one every 6.1 IP... they need more guys who don't allow HR's.

The intention was waylaid by the injury and lack of performance, but I see partially what it was attempting to accomplish.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:15 PM
Harris will never be anything more than bench fodder,those types are a dime a dozen.Like Ryan Freel FA pickup at age 26 in 2002.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Lets compare production in the two positions where we 'gave up' players, shortstop and rightfield.



Freel playing well doesn't justify the returns we got from the trade. Freel made Kearns tradable, but the Reds gave Kearns away for nothing.

If the Reds traded Dunn today for another Majewski, it's a bad trade, even if Denfornia replaces Dunn and OPS 1.100 for the rest of his career. Why? Because we gave away a valuable commodity in Dunn.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:18 PM
In one way he was, he's allowed a scant 17 HR's in 379 Innings over the past 4 seasons, that's a nice ratio of 1 every 22 IP, the Reds BP currently allows one every 6.1 IP... they need more guys who don't allow HR's.the Reds needed guys who could miss bats. Cormier profiled the same and his HR suppression has also disappeared since becoming a Red. Relying on a pitcher whose only reason for effectiveness is a low HR rate is high risk because the pitcher is walking the razors edge of effectiveness. If the HR rate spikes at all the effectiveness completely disappears. The better bet is to go with a guy like Rauch who had a higher HR rate but who missed a lot of bats as well.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:20 PM
Why's is it irrelevent? Their performance after the trade will redefine their worth after they left the Reds, that in itself validates what their worth is on the marketplace, real or assumed.

If you buy a comic book for $1000 and it's only worth 50 cents, is it a good or bad deal?

Does it matter if the guy you brought the comic book from ends up spending the $1000 you gave him on something worse?

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:21 PM
the Reds needed guys who could miss bats.

Of course they do, but the fact is the game has a place for guys that make the batter make outs, or limit home runs in a HR enviroment. 379 IP is not a small sample rate, the Reds need to have all types of pitchers don't you think?

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:21 PM
Like Ryan Freel FA pickup at age 26 in 2002.apples and oranges. Ryan Freel without any speed would not be worth much. Most of his value is tied to his speed and his versatility to play the INF and OF.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:22 PM
379 IP is not a small sample rate, the Reds need to have all types of pitchers don't you think?I didn't realize he had 379 major league innings.

The idea is to acquire pitchers with more than one discernable skill. Majewskis high BB rate, low K rate and low HR rate does not profile for a lot of long term success. What is profiles to is a pitcher heavily dependent on defense and being BABIP fortunate to be very effective.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:24 PM
apples and oranges. Ryan Freel without any speed would not be worth much. Most of his value is tied to his speed and his versatility to play the INF and OF.
Harris comps as a good utility player, with some pop and intensity, earmarked to play in a town that eats intense players up with a spoon.

He'll give the Reds cheap Chris Stynes years, is that bad or good? In an organization that lacks prospects in the IF that's not a bad deal in the short term.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:24 PM
If the Reds waited where would they be in the standings? That's almost as big a mystery as what would they have gotten if they waited to shop those two in the off season.

Where would they be in the standings? Probably a game or two better than they are now, as the extra offense might've helped win another game or two, and likely whoever pitched Maj's innings wouldn't have been that bad.
Of course, we can never prove it, but the Washington guys have contributed very little. It's not a huge stretch to say that we would've been better passing on that deal.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:25 PM
I didn't realize he had 379 major league innings.

The idea is to acquire pitchers with more than one discernable skill. Majewskis high BB rate, low K rate and low HR rate does not profile for a lot of long term success. What is profiles to is a pitcher heavily dependent on defense and being BABIP fortunate to be very effective.

No thats' all his IP AA-AAA-MLB since 2003

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:26 PM
No thats' all his IP AA-AAA-MLB since 2003Cole Hamels would like to talk to you about how well those minor league HR rates can comp to the majors.

Either way his low HR rate is his only redeeming quality, if it spikes at all he is toast. A high risk proposition at best. Guys like Belisle (and probably Standridge) profile better in the long term than Majewski does.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:26 PM
Like Ryan Freel FA pickup at age 26 in 2002.

No, Freel was the 1 in 1000 that pans out.. the rest fall to the wayside, like your buddy Machado.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 03:27 PM
No, Freel was the 1 in 1000 that pans out.. the rest fall to the wayside, like your buddy Machado.
Thanks for the update.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the update.

You're welcome.. :)

Come on, you aren't seriously excited about Harris, are you?

princeton
08-14-2006, 03:28 PM
No, it's important to trade for good pitchers, not bullpen filler.

more whining?

Krivsky was correct that if Majik repeats past performance, which is a reasonable expectation, then he effects a pennant race.

Heath
08-14-2006, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the update.

Let's go over to Jane Curtin in the international desk.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:30 PM
Come on, you aren't seriously excited about Harris, are you?he has pop, afterall he does have 60 HR in 2000+ minor league at bats.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:30 PM
more whining?

Krivsky was correct that if Majik repeats past performance, which is a reasonable expectation, then he effects a pennant race.

Except Maj already had a documented case of tendonitis and was rode hard. I want more than that for Kearns.

Also, note that when Wickman was traded to Atlanta, he had almost identical numbers as Maj. While Maj's numbers were inflated a little since he had a couple bad appearances in Cincy, look at the difference Atl paid for Wickman and compare to what we paid for Maj.

TRF
08-14-2006, 03:32 PM
171 Major league inning total, 150 over the past two seasons.

Seattle Slew wasn't ridden that hard.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:33 PM
Krivsky was correct that if Majik repeats past performance, which is a reasonable expectation, then he effects a pennant race.But was that a reasonable expectation at the time? And how much of that HR supression at the major league level was due to cavernous RFK?

I said at the time it was an unreasonable expectation to expect that Majewski would continue his Nats level of the performance with the Reds (that BABIP good fortune was bound to normalize, just like it has with Cormier as well).

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:33 PM
he has pop, afterall he does have 60 HR in 2000+ minor league at bats.

IMO, he's a non factor in evaluating this trade now. He might help later, but the odds are small and this was a "win now" move.

If you consider the swap to be Ryan Wagner for Harris and/or the sore armed prospect, that's not a bad trade. The big names are what makes this trade stink.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 03:33 PM
more whining?

Nope. I'm just not interested in rotation or bullpen filler. You can dig up a Joey Hamilton or Gary Majewski almost anywhere. I want good pitchers.

Bray could be good. Majewski might be average, if he's lucky. Thompson likely won't amount to anything.

And "Majik" isn't going to replicate anything resembling success on the DL.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:33 PM
150 over the past two seasons.

Seattle Slew wasn't ridden that hard.not everybody is Scott Sullivan.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:34 PM
And "Majik" isn't going to replicate anything resembling success on the DL.well, it is actually better for the Reds.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 03:35 PM
171 Major league inning total, 150 over the past two seasons.

Seattle Slew wasn't ridden that hard.

Plus the World Cup of Baseball this spring, plus he actually spent some time in the minors this year, so I imagine he pitched a few innings there.

Heath
08-14-2006, 03:38 PM
Except Maj already had a documented case of tendonitis and was rode hard. I want more than that for Kearns.

Also, note that when Wickman was traded to Atlanta, he had almost identical numbers as Maj. While Maj's numbers were inflated a little since he had a couple bad appearances in Cincy, look at the difference Atl paid for Wickman and compare to what we paid for Maj.

I think the Wickman deal and the Reds/Nats deals are completely apples to oranges. WayneK was searching for not only this year, but for the next few years. Wickman's a one-year rental at best.

Sure I wanted more for Kearns too, but the market for potential is drying up and the concerns from folks around the league and this board on Kearns' work ethic and Lopez's drop to career norms landed what the best deal Wayne could get. Bowden's not going to address the concerns of Kearns and Lopez, he's just going to let it ride until the careers are shot. Currently, I think its going to be a wash, IMO.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:40 PM
I think the Wickman deal and the Reds/Nats deals are completely apples to oranges. WayneK was searching for not only this year, but for the next few years. Wickman's a one-year rental at best. If WK thought Majewski was anything special in the long term, well :rolleyes:.

I'd rather take my chances with Belisle and Standridge.

dabvu2498
08-14-2006, 03:42 PM
plus he actually spent some time in the minors this year
You sure about this??? I can't find it anywhere.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:44 PM
You sure about this??? I can't find it anywhere.Gary has not pitched in the minors this year. However, he probably will in a few weeks.

Heath
08-14-2006, 03:45 PM
If WK thought Majewski was anything special in the long term, well :rolleyes:.

I'd rather take my chances with Belisle and Standridge.

He's 26. Wickman's 35 and retiring.

Hey, if Jason Standridge could find home plate 75% of the time, this is all moot. Dude needs just to go out there and throw.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 03:46 PM
Wickman's 35 and retiring. and might have really helped down the stretch.

nmculbreth
08-14-2006, 03:55 PM
In the short term the trade looks terrible but I still think it's way too early to evaluate the long term effect on the franchise. I still like Bray's long term potential and once Majewski returns to form he'll play an important role in the bullpen for years to come. At the same time I like the fact that the Reds will have an extra $9 mil or so to spend next offseason, if spent wisely that money can go a long way to addressing the pitching problem that still plagues the franchise.

The real wildcard here is what long term effect the trade has on Adam Dunn. From what I read in TC's thread Kearns was not a positive influence and to be honest I don't have a problem with the club jettisoning Kearns for next to nothing if it was enough to wake Dunn up and have him start living up to his true potential.

Heath
08-14-2006, 04:08 PM
and might have really helped down the stretch.

....but not in 2007 where he and Kent Mercker will be playing for $2 Nassaus at Muirfield, swapping stories, and swilling Budweiser.

Would Miguel Perez be worth a Bob Wickman?

Hey Ricardo, I'm interested in knowing what your buddy at the Possum Lodge feels about all this. :cool:

mbgrayson
08-14-2006, 04:11 PM
Also, note that when Wickman was traded to Atlanta, he had almost identical numbers as Maj. While Maj's numbers were inflated a little since he had a couple bad appearances in Cincy, look at the difference Atl paid for Wickman and compare to what we paid for Maj.

As already mentioned:
Robert Joe Wickman; Born: 02/06/1969
Gary Wayne Majewski; Born: 02/26/1980

With Majewki and Bray, we did get young relievers, that hopefully will be around a few years. Wickman is strictly a one year 'rental', that is why he was cheaper.

But I miss Austin and Felipe too...would have liked a #1 starter in return. COuldn't be done tho...

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:12 PM
....but not in 2007 and what does 2007 have to do with any of this? I thought the Reds and the purpose of the trades was to win now.

The Reds are having multiple career year and this team as currently constructed is certainly unlikely to compete in 2007 unless you are counting on players repeating career years(at which point they become a new level of performance).

JTMONEY
08-14-2006, 04:13 PM
wish we could have kept felipe but thats all from the trade, IMO i think that lopez could have been good in the future being in his early 20's, all he had to do was work on his defense and his offense could become very productive

Heath
08-14-2006, 04:14 PM
But I miss Austin and Felipe too...would have liked a #1 starter in return. COuldn't be done tho...

wouldn't be done also. one is damaged goods mentally with high potential, and the other had a career year last year with returning to career norms this year.

No one wanted any part of them except for James Bowden, Esq.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:15 PM
I guess the focus should be on 2007, for which this team is likely woefully inadequate to compete. A few younger middle relievers is unlikely to make much of a difference. Especially when they've already thrown $2M+ to an old fossil like Cormier.

JTMONEY
08-14-2006, 04:18 PM
if we were going to look into the future we should have tried to trade RA instead of lopez because rich is getting old and felipe is still very young instead we trade our future away and keep an trade for players that will be retiring in a few years

Ltlabner
08-14-2006, 04:18 PM
and what does 2007 have to do with any of this? I thought the Reds and the purpose of the trades was to win now.

Yes the trade was positioned partly as a "win now" move, but it also was postioned as a move that would help into the future also. It is possible to help in both the short and long terms.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:21 PM
Yes the trade was positioned partly as a "win now" move, but it also was postioned as a move that would help into the future also. It is possible to help in both the short and long terms.mediocre middle releivers are a dime a dozen and are interchangeable. Unless Bray and Majewski pitch well enough to be setup and closer in the future(and nothing in their past or present performance suggests they are up to the task) then they are simply replacement parts.

And of course Bray and Majewski have kindoff missed on that short term thing.

Heath
08-14-2006, 04:23 PM
and what does 2007 have to do with any of this? I thought the Reds and the purpose of the trades was to win now.

The Reds are having multiple career year and this team as currently constructed is certainly unlikely to compete in 2007 unless you are counting on players repeating career years(at which point they become a new level of performance).

That's the problem....you are looking to win now....but not sacrifice the future. You keep forgeting that point. Most of the "whining" forgets that point. Krivsky said it that day.

There is 10-15 million of NEW money that can be spent this upcoming year in the FA pool. I'm willing to give Krivisky a full off-season to figure it out. Brandon Phillips is going to be a solid short-stop in 2007. I'm also guessing that EdE's latest hot streak has pretty much locked down the 3rd Sacker job for the remainder of his Reds career.

Kearns and Lopez were not going to fit into the plans of the Reds. I also gather, that there was NO market for EITHER one of them. So, back they go to "Mama Bear" a.k.a. Jim Bowden, who gives up an old SS and two young bullpen arms for his "prized prospects".

Sure Bob Wickman's had a nice few weeks in Atlanta, but who knows what "might have been" in Cincinnati. For all we know, he could have gotten "Reds Bullpen Disease".

Ltlabner
08-14-2006, 04:28 PM
mediocre middle releivers are a dime a dozen and are interchangeable

Yet there are a number of teams with bullpen issues who could use help. Why aren't they snatching up all of these mediocre middle relieavers that are just laying around all over the place for pennies on the dollar?

How many bullpen arms were moved by the trade deadline? Going strictly from memory there might have been 5 or 6 guys moved. Certinally less than 10. I could be totally wrong in this, but I just don't remember a laundry list of bullpen arms moving around for "a dime a dozen".

Yet those teams still need bullpen help. Wonder why they just didn't go out and pick some of these arms off the "bullpen tree" ?

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:28 PM
There is 10-15 million of NEW money that can be spent this upcoming year in the FA pool. at which point the Reds would(if they were smart) actually acquire a few relievers that can miss bats that would be more effective late game pitchers than either Majewski or Bray profile to be at this point. Until the above two start missing bats, which in Majewski's case is extremely unlikely(Bray more likely if he would consistently stay on top of his slider), they are easily replaced.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:28 PM
I think the Wickman deal and the Reds/Nats deals are completely apples to oranges. WayneK was searching for not only this year, but for the next few years. Wickman's a one-year rental at best.

Sure I wanted more for Kearns too, but the market for potential is drying up and the concerns from folks around the league and this board on Kearns' work ethic and Lopez's drop to career norms landed what the best deal Wayne could get. Bowden's not going to address the concerns of Kearns and Lopez, he's just going to let it ride until the careers are shot. Currently, I think its going to be a wash, IMO.

IMO, this was a "win now" trade. The Reds would've been much better getting Wickman, and then trading Kearns for more in the winter. In the winter, Kearns could probably get more than Bray/Maj all by himself.

Kearns was OPSing about 837 at the trade, and making about 2 million (1.8, I think). That's a bargain, IMO. Sure, he didn't wind up being the MVP we all hoped for, but as Johnny pointed out, wasn't he good enough to be 10th in OPS for all OF? That's pretty good.

I really don't think Kearns and Lopez are close to having their careers be "shot". I'm pretty sure both will be playing long after Maj hangs it up. Bray is 3 years younger, so he might hang around longer, but it's hard to say.
Heck, just look at how long Clayton has hung around. There's always a shortage of guys that can play ML SS. Lopez certainly isn't the greatest glove at SS, but he's a plus bat at a MI slot. As long as he keeps hitting, he'll have a job.

JTMONEY
08-14-2006, 04:30 PM
i like mejewski and bray but i still would rather have kearns and lopez, at least one of them.
IMO:Austin Kearns for Bill Bray

westofyou
08-14-2006, 04:32 PM
There's always a shortage of guys that can play ML SS. Lopez certainly isn't the greatest glove at SS, but he's a plus bat at a MI slot. As long as he keeps hitting, he'll have a job.

He's a horrible fielding SS, whose range has diminished... He'll be lucky to log another 200 games there. The man can't get it done defensivly.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:32 PM
You sure about this??? I can't find it anywhere.

sorry, I stand corrected.. I was looking at the 2005 transactions.. but you can add that time to his 2 year load..

4/18/05 Placed RHP Antonio Osuna on the 15-disabled list, retroactive to April 11, with a right shoulder strain and recalled RHP Gary Majewski from Triple-A New Orleans.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:33 PM
Yet there are a number of teams with bullpen issues who could use help. Why aren't they snatching up all of these mediocre middle relieavers that are just laying around all over the place for pennies on the dollar? Gosh that Rick White guy has pitched pretty well for Philadelphia. How did that happen?

Answer: middle relief guys that rely on defense and BABIP are subject to numerous peaks and valleys throughout the season(generally tied to the HR rate and BABIP fluctuation).

What the smart GM looks for is the type of pitchers that profile to be less susceptible to those factors that they cannot control. Majewski and Bray are not those pitchers are this point (Majweski has never shown that ability, even in the minors).

JTMONEY
08-14-2006, 04:35 PM
He's a horrible fielding SS, whose range has diminished... He'll be lucky to log another 200 games there. The man can't get it done defensivly.
All you have to do is work on it in the offseason and it will be much better next year. Coaches always say "PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!"

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:35 PM
As already mentioned:
Robert Joe Wickman; Born: 02/06/1969
Gary Wayne Majewski; Born: 02/26/1980

With Majewki and Bray, we did get young relievers, that hopefully will be around a few years. Wickman is strictly a one year 'rental', that is why he was cheaper.

But I miss Austin and Felipe too...would have liked a #1 starter in return. COuldn't be done tho...

Ok, I guess we disagree on why this trade was made. I thought this trade was made for us to make the playoffs this year, and that's how Wayne justified the high cost. If the trade was made to set up the bullpen for the next 3 years, Wayne picked a terrible time to go shopping.

The question is: What was the PRIMARY motivation for doing this trade at that time? To help now or in the future? By either measure, Wayne failed, IMO. I like most of his other moves, but this is a stinker.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:36 PM
IMO:Austin Kearns for Bill Braythat I would have done.

I might have went for the deal if it was Rauch instead of Majewski and if especially if the Nats had kept Clayton.

The dislike for the deal has never been about losing Lopez and Kearns. It was simply about the return not really doing anything to help the team now and questionable as to if it will really help in future years.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 04:36 PM
All you have to do is work on it in the offseason and it will be much better next year. Coaches always say "PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!"
The man's legs are knocking him to another position, no SS has big thighs and rear.

Ltlabner
08-14-2006, 04:37 PM
Gosh that Rick White guy has pitched pretty well for Philadelphia. How did that happen?

Answer: middle relief guys that rely on defense and BABIP are subject to numerous peaks and valleys throughout the season.

What the smart GM looks for is the type of pitchers that profile to be less susceptible to those factors that they cannot control. Majewski and Bray are not those pitchers are this point (Majweski has never shown that ability, even in the minors).

So Rick White relied on defense and BABIP while in Cincy but suddenly started pitching differently in Philly? Cause he certinally didn't qualify as even "mediocre" bullpen help while he was in a Reds uniform.

But that still doesn't answer why all the teams that need bullpen help don't just run out and stock up on these plentiful bullpen arms?

TRF
08-14-2006, 04:38 PM
In reality, Kearns was traded for Freel/Deno with Freel winning the job outright.

The ascension of one of the two into the starting RF job cannot be overlooked. I agree with that. But a position switch of Phillips/Lopez IMO should have been tried.

And finally, the aquisition of Maj/Bray did nothing to aleviate the issues with the pen. Better pitching from Coffey, Weathers and Shack against LH, Standridge against RH, and a few less boneheaded moves in game by Narron did that all by itself.

But team makeup cannot be ignored. Is the team better with Freel in RF over Kearns? I think it probably is. Is it better with Clayton at SS instead of Lopez? I think not. Is Bray/Maj an upgrade over what was in house? Again, I think not.

Getting beat in a trade happens. This time Krivsky got beat. Long term, the Pena/Arroyo trade might go as a loss too, or at least a break even. Certainly he didn't fleece Theo on that one.

BillDoran
08-14-2006, 04:39 PM
The aspect folks judging the trade continuously overlook is the money. After this year Felipe and Kearns were in line to make some serious cash. My observation is Wayno didn't believe they were going to be worth these hefty raises. So in turn, Wayno wants to unload them while we're in contention this year, and in my opinion, still overpaid for Bray/Maj but he did recieve pecuniary flexibility along with two young talented relievers.

Heath
08-14-2006, 04:45 PM
The aspect folks judging the trade continuously overlook is the money. After this year Felipe and Kearns were in line to make some serious cash. My observation is Wayno didn't believe they were going to be worth these hefty raises. So in turn, Wayno wants to unload them while we're in contention this year, and in my opinion, still overpaid for Bray/Maj but he did recieve pecuniary flexibility along with two young talented relievers.

If you think you might be posting around these parts for a while, you might have to tone down the vocabulary around here (present company included).

Welcome to the board. Sorry you got hurt in 1990.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:46 PM
There is 10-15 million of NEW money that can be spent this upcoming year in the FA pool. I'm willing to give Krivisky a full off-season to figure it out. Brandon Phillips is going to be a solid short-stop in 2007. .

This is the part I don't understand from the pro-trade camp. If Kearns and Lopez are mediocre, why are they going to be due for such a big payday.
IIRC, Dunn got about 5 million in his second year of arb. There's no way Lopez and Kearns are going to get that much. Even if Kearns' salary doubles, it's still only 3.6 million. Realistically, I think you could estimate 4 million each for the "high side" of what Kearns and Lopez will make next year.

So that's 8 million.. 2 million has already been spent on Cormier. Some might be spent on Louse (which is ok if he deserves it). Plus there's all the normal raises to be expected from all the other guys. So, we might have a little bit of money left to spend on a replacement middle infielder or a bargain starting pitcher.. I guess my point is that the savings is going to be minimal, certainly not enough to make an impact. Cast is going to have to up the payroll if the Reds are going to make a slash in the FA market. Simply dumping Lopez and Kearns isn't going to have us flush with cash.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:47 PM
So Rick White relied on defense and BABIP while in Cincy but suddenly started pitching differently in Philly? the difference in Philly has been nothing more than a drop in HR rate(1 in 20IP). When guys don't miss bats they are highly allergic to changes in BABIP and HR rate which for middle releivers tend to go through peaks and valleys.

The reason White has been more effective of late is the same reason that Weathers has been more effective of late.

TRF
08-14-2006, 04:49 PM
the difference in Philly has been nothing more than a drop in HR rate(1 in 20IP). When guys don't miss bats they are highly allergic to changes in BABIP and HR rate which for middle releivers tend to go through peaks and valleys.

The reason White has been more effective of late is the same reason that Weathers has been more effective of late.

Luck?

I mean unless someone is seeing something I'm not.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:51 PM
Luck?
a component as well as the fact that performance peaks and wanes for everybody.

What you look for are pitchers who are less allergic to "luck" because they allow fewer baserunners overall due to more Ks and less BBs.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 04:51 PM
That's the problem....you are looking to win now....but not sacrifice the future. You keep forgeting that point. Most of the "whining" forgets that point. Krivsky said it that day.

Nice. If you didn't like the trade, you're merely whining. Is that the catchphrase for it now? I could point out the homerism that is involved in the support of this trade, but that wouldn't be very fair or accurate.

You are exactly correct--we're looking to win now, yet not sacrifice for the future. I completely, 100% agree with you. now, if you could explain to me how that philosophy led the Reds to deal 25% of their starting lineup--two young players that were some of their most tradeable commodities--for a pair of average middle relievers, I'm all ears. Contrary to yoru post, it's not something I "keep forgetting," it's something I'm constantly being made aware of.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:52 PM
He's a horrible fielding SS, whose range has diminished... He'll be lucky to log another 200 games there. The man can't get it done defensivly.

Yet, there's a shortage of SS. Lugo is asking for 8 million as a FA, and based on what guys like Renturia, Cabera, and the LA SS got, Lugo might get it.

A lot of teams are willing to overlook the guys' glove if he can hit. (The Reds overlooked it for 2+ years). Plus, Lopez has improved at SS. Maybe he hasn't improved as fast as we'd like, but he's getting better.

I'm not saying Bowden is a genius with his team building skills.. But look at his blueprint. It's actually pretty good for a team in "wait for prospects mode". He loads up on slugging and bullpen help. Makes for a lot of exciting games, because you see a lot of come from behind victories. Helps sell tickets, and on years that the SP gells (like last year), you can at least pseudo-contend.
Will it win the World Series? No, but it keeps things interesting while the team is rebuilding.. The point of that discussion is to say that I bet Lopez stays at SS in Washington as long as he hits. Longer than 200 games, if Vidro is still around. They might try him at 2b if Vidro gets traded.

REDREAD
08-14-2006, 04:55 PM
If you think you might be posting around these parts for a while, you might have to tone down the vocabulary around here (present company included).

Welcome to the board. Sorry you got hurt in 1990.

He's probably a regular that signed up under an alias.. I like his high vocabulary way of saying "payflex" :)

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2006, 04:56 PM
This is the part I don't understand from the pro-trade camp. If Kearns and Lopez are mediocre, why are they going to be due for such a big payday.
IIRC, Dunn got about 5 million in his second year of arb. There's no way Lopez and Kearns are going to get that much. Even if Kearns' salary doubles, it's still only 3.6 million. Realistically, I think you could estimate 4 million each for the "high side" of what Kearns and Lopez will make next year.

So that's 8 million.. 2 million has already been spent on Cormier. Some might be spent on Louse (which is ok if he deserves it). Plus there's all the normal raises to be expected from all the other guys. So, we might have a little bit of money left to spend on a replacement middle infielder or a bargain starting pitcher.. I guess my point is that the savings is going to be minimal, certainly not enough to make an impact. Cast is going to have to up the payroll if the Reds are going to make a slash in the FA market. Simply dumping Lopez and Kearns isn't going to have us flush with cash.

"Louse." Intentional or not, that's funny.

But your point about salaries is pretty accurate. A team concerned with arbitration raises shouldn't be giving $2.25 Million to a 40 year-old single-inning reliever (Cormier).

And who is the shortstop next season? Phillips?

flyer85
08-14-2006, 04:58 PM
A team concerned with arbitration raises shouldn't be giving $2.25 Million to a 40 year-old single-inning reliever (Cormier). another deal that I really disliked. Cormier is poised to fall of the cliff and the Reds are on the hook to pay for it next year.

TRF
08-14-2006, 05:00 PM
Let me see...

Majewski is 26.

Lohse is 27.

Lohse was aquired for a 22 year old pitcher at Low A Dayton. A very good Low A pitcher, but still.

So is 26 the cutoff point for being a young talented pitcher? I wasn't overly enamored with the trade for Lohse, but after reading about his success after he was sent down, and his success in the pen for the Twins, I thought it was a decent deal for both teams. In the long run, who knows.

But Bray has no major league track record, and his minor league stats aren't any better than Calvin Medlock, so why trade for what you already have? Maybe Dumatrait is ready. Maybe Pelland is ready for the bullpen.

Maybe woy is right that FeLo's future at SS is nearing an end. I'd be willing to bet his next and final stop as a starter is 2B.

I don't think either of them was untouchable, but the return on them was pathetic at best.

westofyou
08-14-2006, 05:02 PM
Maybe he hasn't improved as fast as we'd like, but he's getting better. No he's not, he's getting worse.

Have you seen his fielding percentage compared to Claytons at DC?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statistics/Team/playerstats?team=was&pagetype=fielding&seasonYear=2006

It's pathetic and Clayton sucked too, compared against his peers on his own teams he's been clocking a worse rate then they have been, even as bad as Clayton has been since he came over it's still equal to Lopez's time here this year fielding percentage wise and he's 10 years older.



The man was fast to posting the worst SS fielding percentage for a starting Reds SS in over 50 years.

If that's getting better then I want no part of getting worse.

flyer85
08-14-2006, 05:03 PM
Let me see...

Majewski is 26.

Lohse is 27.

Lohse was aquired for a 22 year old pitcher at Low A Dayton. A very good Low A pitcher, but still.and IMHO, Lohse profiled to be a better releiver than Majewski if he had stayed in the pen.

Heath
08-14-2006, 05:05 PM
Nice. If you didn't like the trade, you're merely whining. Is that the catchphrase for it now? I could point out the homerism that is involved in the support of this trade, but that wouldn't be very fair or accurate.

The word whining is in quotations. That's what the board seems to call it. I just used the catch phrase that pays.



You are exactly correct--we're looking to win now, yet not sacrifice for the future. I completely, 100% agree with you. now, if you could explain to me how that philosophy led the Reds to deal 25% of their starting lineup--two young players that were some of their most tradeable commodities--for a pair of average middle relievers, I'm all ears. Contrary to yoru post, it's not something I "keep forgetting," it's something I'm constantly being made aware of.

This is why I'm ok with this deal. Kearns and Lopez aren't tradeable commodities, IMO. Again, to rehash, there are reports though this board, through other avenues of information that stated that Kearns and Lopez aren't part of the solution, but part of the problem. If there was such a big market for these guys, there would have been teams lining up to get these guys. Only Bowden would take them lock, stock, and barrel. This offseason might have generated nothing better than what the Reds got from Washington. An oft-injured OF with potential, but a bad attitude (supposively) coupled with a regression to career norms offensively and defensively-challenged shortstop isn't going to net hardly anything. That's my difference of opinion - they aren't tradeable commodities. You feel they are. That's my whole pretense of my opinion.

princeton
08-14-2006, 06:02 PM
Nice. If you didn't like the trade, you're merely whining.

if you didn't like the trade and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

TRF
08-14-2006, 06:06 PM
if you didn't like the trade and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

and if you think Dunn K's to much and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

And if you think EE needs to play everyday and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

And if you think Freel is mor valuable as an everyday player and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

and on and on and on.

Why again do we even have a Redszone if we can't discuss these things?

Reds1
08-14-2006, 06:11 PM
but that wasn't the way th deal was posited when it went down. Denorfia was coming up to play a lot of RF and Freel's role wasn't to appreciably change.

I don't buy this. I know they thought deno would play some, but they expected to play Freel more. And I'm talking what they are doing - not what was planned. The question was do I like the deal. well, No - not really, BUT Freel has made it easier to take and I like Bray. But I still say we only needed to trade 1 of our guys.

tomred
08-14-2006, 06:27 PM
I think we are beating a dead horse good or bad it is over everytime Bray or Clayton do something wrong it brings a new tread it is fine to rip them but I just wish the treads about the trade would go away. I donot mean to make anyone mad just giving my opinion

TRF
08-14-2006, 06:36 PM
I think we are beating a dead horse good or bad it is over everytime Bray or Clayton do something wrong it brings a new tread it is fine to rip them but I just wish the treads about the trade would go away. I donot mean to make anyone mad just giving my opinion

no one is forcing anyone to read these threads. some horse beating is fun. I see part of woy's POV. I hope he see's some of mine too.

registerthis
08-14-2006, 07:08 PM
if you didn't like the trade and have posted again and again and againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand againand again

you're merely whining

I see.

And posting responses to these "whinings" is...?

Any other topics been rehashed to death around here that I should be aware of?

ochre
08-14-2006, 07:13 PM
some horse beating is fun.
unless you're a horse.

deltachi8
08-14-2006, 08:33 PM
I like the concept of the trade. I like the players the Reds were willing to part with....now the return....well, I am having some difficulty defending at this point.

SteelSD
08-14-2006, 08:36 PM
The aspect folks judging the trade continuously overlook is the money. After this year Felipe and Kearns were in line to make some serious cash. My observation is Wayno didn't believe they were going to be worth these hefty raises. So in turn, Wayno wants to unload them while we're in contention this year, and in my opinion, still overpaid for Bray/Maj but he did recieve pecuniary flexibility along with two young talented relievers.

The Payflex argument has already been debunked a number of times and properly identified as a huge red herring because of it's complete reliance on the following illogical premises (among others):

1. Both Kearns and Lopez are not good; thus they will be paid great sums of money.
2. No other additional moves to bolster the bullpen were possible.
3. Should the trade have not happened at the ASB, both Kearns and Lopez would have been immovable objects incapable of garnering any return at a point before which they would receive their alleged huge raises.

Add on the fact that a goodly portion of the 2007 potential cost savings is already spent on a fractional-Inning pitcher who'll be 40 years old, and you've got yourself a whopper. Don't even get me started on whether or not Krivsky's going to pay Kyle Lohse next season.

Not speaking to you, BillDoran, but nearly every time that's pointed out, the M.O. switches to indictments of phantom character issues (particularly nonsensical in regard to Lopez- a reputed hard worker whom Encarnacion saw as a positive influence). Debunk that and we switch up to how the trade wasn't a "short-term only" solution during a season in which the only reason to trade Kearns/Lopez was to acquire real "now" help. Smash that argument to atoms and apparently it's now fashionable to call other folks "whiners".

But all the while, what folks appear to be failing to realize is that there's a big fat difference between identifying probable trade motivation and defending an awful value return. Identifying motivation is fine. Hey, I realize why the trade was made. We all do. Something needed to be done to positively impact the Reds' performance. The friction begins when folks start using the "why" as a defense of the value return for trade components who haven't positively impacted the Reds' performance.

But what I might be most disappointed in is that this thread has gone so many pages without seeing the name "Mike MacDougal". He's been lights-out since being acquired by the White Sox with nary a Kearns or Lopez-level MLB talent heading the other way. Those guys aren't supposedly available for less...except when they're available for less, I guess.

BillDoran
08-14-2006, 10:02 PM
To be honest the more we distance ourself from the trade the more I side with SteelSD's logic. I was so baffled by the move from the outset that I began hypothesizing about rationale and my best guess resulted in pecuniary (Word of the Day on my Word of the Day calendar a couple days ago, honest) flexibility. After seeing Wayno continue his mad trading spree I'm becoming more and more wary of his dealings. But one thing is certain, it hasn't been nearly this fun to be a Reds fan since '99.

REDREAD
08-15-2006, 12:21 AM
Have you seen his fielding percentage compared to Claytons at DC?


I thought fielding percentage was a poor metric to use for measuring defense?

westofyou
08-15-2006, 12:32 AM
I thought fielding percentage was a poor metric to use for measuring defense?
Compared with the players who share the position on their own team it proves to be useful since they are all eating at the same table and generally have the same crap thrown at them.

Regardless if you want to believe that aspect he's not a good young shortstop, he had perhaps the lowest amount of defensive Win Shares for a starting SS in the NL last year and he' s just not getting better out there.

SteelSD
08-15-2006, 02:35 AM
Compared with the players who share the position on their own team it proves to be useful since they are all eating at the same table and generally have the same crap thrown at them.

You know that's not true. Fielding Percentage is nearly useless in determining how good a player is at acquiring Outs. You know it.


Regardless if you want to believe that aspect he's not a good young shortstop, he had perhaps the lowest amount of defensive Win Shares for a starting SS in the NL last year and he' s just not getting better out there.

And Lopez ended up with the 4th highest number of Win Shares for a NL Shortstop in 2005. His Win Shares total (22) was carried by his bat. We know this. Those who are unhappy with the trade have never, ever, positioned Lopez as a top-level defensive player. You know that. But then, Shortstop isn't the only position Felipe Lopez could play. You know that too.

REDREAD
08-15-2006, 04:04 AM
Compared with the players who share the position on their own team it proves to be useful since they are all eating at the same table and generally have the same crap thrown at them.

Regardless if you want to believe that aspect he's not a good young shortstop, he had perhaps the lowest amount of defensive Win Shares for a starting SS in the NL last year and he' s just not getting better out there.

Yes, Felipe will never win a gold glove. But look at what we got for Kearns and Lopez. Rewind back to spring training. If you did a poll then, 90% of the people on this board would say that Kearns was more valuable than Pena.
Pena fetched Arroyo. Even if Arroyo settles back to being a #3 starter, that's good value for Pena.

Now consider that we gave up Kearns and Lopez for Bray and Maj (who may have chronic shoulder problems, and yes that risk should've been known by Wayne, since Redszoners figured it out within a day after the trade).

How in the world can you say that's a fair return based on what Pena fetched? And I don't buy this "the market was tight" BS either. Wayne himself picked up a bunch of relievers on the cheap this year.

We got raped in this trade. I'm not calling for Wayne to get fired over this, but I hope he learns to walk away from a deal when the opposing GM is asking for the moon. Even if Maj was healthy, this would still be a horrible trade.

Convince me with stats that Bray, Maj, and Clayton are worth more win shares or runs than Kearns and Lopez. The evidence is overwhelming that this trade was a disaster.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 07:17 AM
The evidence is overwhelming that this trade was a disaster.

In your opinion.

I think some GMs would view Pena as more valuable in a trade than Kearns. Kearns has shown what he can do and lets be honest, it is nothing special. He has been injured and was in AAA last season.

Wily Mo still has the word potential hanging over him and I'm sure there were (are) GMs, including Theo Epstein who viewed WMP as a better future player than Austin Kearns.

Lets be real, we weren't getting another Arroyo for Austin Kearns. That is laughable. Austin might be the more productive player but he does nothing really well. WMP has the potential to hit 90 HR in a season. THAT is why we got Arroyo for him and two guys you don't like for Kearns and Lopez.

You can't just be average in nearly every aspect of the game and expect to use that player to fetch a top of the rotation starter. Not unless that starter is a rental. However a guy like WMP with untapped potential and the ability to hit HR in bunches can get you a nice return, as we saw.

Meanwhile the Reds head to St Louis with a chance to take over the Central lead.

Damn Wayne.

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 08:31 AM
Now consider that we gave up Kearns and Lopez for Bray and Maj

And two prospects.....and....well...that other guy. I can't argue Clayton because as a stop gap he's turned up to be just as bad as Lopez.

But you can't leave out the prospects in the trade. I know people will dismiss them because "they are crap" and "will never make it to the big leagues". But the fact remains that they were part of the trade. It's also part of the reason why this trade was both to win now, and to have an impact in the future.

When I think of the trade in terms of AK for Bray, Majic + 1 prospect and Lopez for Clayton + 1 prospects then I have no problem with it at all. Maybe the specific people weren't the right ones but AK for 3 relievers (2 arms + 1 prospect arm) that sounds about right to me. Lopez for Clayton and 1 prospect....yep. Sounds right to me too.

puca
08-15-2006, 08:38 AM
Wagner was part of the trade as well..and you seem to be leaving him out. :)

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 08:45 AM
Wagner was part of the trade as well..and you seem to be leaving him out. :)

Doh.....you are correct sir. That's how much I figured him into the Reds plans for the future. He sunk so far off the radar he's easy to forget.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 10:45 AM
Convince me with stats that Bray, Maj, and Clayton are worth more win shares or runs than Kearns and Lopez. The evidence is overwhelming that this trade was a disaster.

No, I better things to do with my time.

Lopez won't be playing SS in 2 years and if he is it will be with a loser, you can use words like stole, rape, and disaster and I'll use mine.

Hyperbole.

westofyou
08-15-2006, 10:46 AM
Those who are unhappy with the trade have never, ever, positioned Lopez as a top-level defensive player. You know that. But then, Shortstop isn't the only position Felipe Lopez could play. You know that too.

I also know other things about Lopez, but I'm not talking... you should know that.

SteelSD
08-15-2006, 11:19 AM
I also know other things about Lopez, but I'm not talking... you should know that.

You know other things about Lopez or you know other things other people have said about Lopez?

Either way, if you don't want to share publicly, then feel free to shoot whatever additional info you have my way via PM. That'd be preferable to going 'round and 'round about Fielding Percentage and Payflex.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 11:22 AM
Lopez's defensive deficiencies is what got him traded. As for Kearns, does anyone think he will hit 25 HRs with 90 to 100 RBIs this season?

Did we really lose that much?

ochre
08-15-2006, 11:26 AM
Lopez's defensive deficiencies is what got him traded. As for Kearns, does anyone think he will hit 25 HRs with 90 to 100 RBIs this season?

Did we really lose that much?
That's the question that can never be answered.

I suppose and figure the value for position players, as exemplified by past deals, is much higher in the offseason. Looking at the numbers and judging the on field impact is really just a tiny sliver of the bigger issue with this deal.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 11:35 AM
That's the question that can never be answered.

I suppose and figure the value for position players, as exemplified by past deals, is much higher in the offseason. Looking at the numbers and judging the on field impact is really just a tiny sliver of the bigger issue with this deal.

On field impact? How about the increase production in Dunn since his little buddy Kearns was dealt to Washington? And what has Kearns actually done in a Washington's uniform? As for Lopez, the talk was shifting him to second base because of his defensive deficiencies. I think Wayne K realizes he can move Phillips to shortstop and acquire a second baseman for half the price Lopez will command this offseason while providing the same offensive numbers.

But more importantly, having Freel in RF gets him in the lineup more often and batting in that leadoff spot. Face it....Freel wasn't getting any playing time at second base with Phillips there. At third, you had Encarncion, Aurilia and Castro manning the spot. Freel can't play shortstop or lst base. In the outfield, Dunn is entrenched in LF and Junior has been healthy. So how do you get Freel in the lineup? By trading a over-hyped Austin Kearns while trying to shore up a deficiency in the bullpen.

ochre
08-15-2006, 11:47 AM
On field impact? How about the increase production in Dunn since his little buddy Kearns was dealt to Washington? And what has Kearns actually done in a Washington's uniform? As for Lopez, the talk was shifting him to second base because of his defensive deficiencies. I think Wayne K realizes he can move Phillips to shortstop and acquire a second baseman for half the price Lopez will command this offseason while providing the same offensive numbers.

But more importantly, having Freel in RF gets him in the lineup more often and batting in that leadoff spot. Face it....Freel wasn't getting any playing time at second base with Phillips there. At third, you had Encarncion, Aurilia and Castro manning the spot. Freel can't play shortstop or lst base. In the outfield, Dunn is entrenched in LF and Junior has been healthy. So how do you get Freel in the lineup? By trading a over-hyped Austin Kearns while trying to shore up a deficiency in the bullpen.
cause your crystal ball ties all these factors exclusively to the trade? Your crystal ball is better than mine.

Kearns really caused Dunn to struggle in April though, so I guess cause and effect is all neatly lined up in Duloc.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 12:56 PM
Did we really lose that much?

As flawed as everyone said we were before the trade, if Wayne got fleeced that bad, the Reds would of fallen out of it long ago.

Not much changed, except the likelyood of a play-off chance, which increased.

ochre
08-15-2006, 01:00 PM
Prove the likelihood increased. Please.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 01:02 PM
Prove the trade sucked, please.

You gave your opinion, I gave mine.

But since mine is rosy, yours must be right.

joshnky
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
Is this really still a worthwhile discussion? Not much can be done about it now. All it does is cause heated arguments.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 01:07 PM
Not much can be done about it now. All it does is cause heated arguments.

At what point could something be done about it by the posters at redszone?

SteelSD
08-15-2006, 01:09 PM
As flawed as everyone said we were before the trade, if Wayne got fleeced that bad, the Reds would of fallen out of it long ago.

Not much changed, except the likelyood of a play-off chance, which increased.

23.2 Innings Pitched
42 Hits
8 BB
2.11 WHIP
20 Earned Runs
7.60 ERA

So far, the RP trade return has contributed less to the Reds than did Joe Mays. Yet it appears you think it helped even though there can be no question that Joe Mays didn't. Yikes.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 01:10 PM
Prove the trade sucked, please.

Various posters have shown the run production that the Reds lost on this deal, but people simply wish to ignore it.

The trade was made to bolster our bullpen. Majewski's been a liability, and Bray has been merely OK. If you wish to disagree, please feel free, but I'll need something more than "the trade was good because it improved our bullpen"--because there really aren't any statistics you could provide to support that argument.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 01:13 PM
23.2 Innings Pitched
42 Hits
8 BB
2.11 WHIP
20 Earned Runs
7.60 ERA

So far, the RP trade return has contributed less to the Reds than did Joe Mays. Yet it appears you think it helped even though there can be no question that Joe Mays didn't. Yikes.

You neglected to include Royce Clayton and his stellar .289 OBP.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
Lopez's defensive deficiencies is what got him traded. As for Kearns, does anyone think he will hit 25 HRs with 90 to 100 RBIs this season?

Did we really lose that much?I dont think so, but I would say that we won 2 to 3 games with Freel making plays in right that Kearns wouldn't have.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
23.2 Innings Pitched
42 Hits
8 BB
2.11 WHIP
20 Earned Runs
7.60 ERA

So far, the RP trade return has contributed less to the Reds than did Joe Mays. Yet it appears you think it helped even though there can be no question that Joe Mays didn't. Yikes.Why do I have a feeling this is below replacement level?

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2006, 01:18 PM
On field impact? How about the increase production in Dunn since his little buddy Kearns was dealt to Washington? And what has Kearns actually done in a Washington's uniform? As for Lopez, the talk was shifting him to second base because of his defensive deficiencies. I think Wayne K realizes he can move Phillips to shortstop and acquire a second baseman for half the price Lopez will command this offseason while providing the same offensive numbers.

But more importantly, having Freel in RF gets him in the lineup more often and batting in that leadoff spot. Face it....Freel wasn't getting any playing time at second base with Phillips there. At third, you had Encarncion, Aurilia and Castro manning the spot. Freel can't play shortstop or lst base. In the outfield, Dunn is entrenched in LF and Junior has been healthy. So how do you get Freel in the lineup? By trading a over-hyped Austin Kearns while trying to shore up a deficiency in the bullpen.

-Have you seen the free agent market for second basemen? Not very promising.

-Dunn's improvement began before the All-Star break, before the trade. It was most likely the result of using a lighter bat and being moved to the 2nd spot in the order. He's back in the 5th spot now, and his production in August has been pretty horrible. Or maybe he's been hanging out with Austin again...

-Kearns was only over-hyped by impatient Reds fans who would accept nothing less than the second coming of Joe Dimaggio.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:19 PM
I dont think so, but I would say that we won 2 to 3 games with Freel making plays in right that Kearns wouldn't have.

If you don't trade Kearns, how much playing time would Freel have gotten?

Bottom line is this offense doesn't click unless Freel is leading off and providing that spark.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 01:20 PM
If you don't trade Kearns, how much playing time would Freel have gotten?

Bottom line is this offense doesn't click unless Freel is leading off and providing that spark.

Philips to SS, Freel to 2B.

just sayin'.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:20 PM
If you don't trade Kearns, how much playing time would Freel have gotten?

Bottom line is this offense doesn't click unless Freel is leading off and providing that spark.

Kearns' removal has improved the offense by permitting Freel to play every day. I can't argue that point.

But the deal was made to help the pitching.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:22 PM
Bottom line is this offense doesn't click unless Freel is leading off and providing that spark.one of those unintended consequences that has been fortuitous to this point.

Afterall, it was Denorfia's "time" and the talk after the trade was that he would get the majority of the PT in RF.

ochre
08-15-2006, 01:22 PM
Kearns' removal has improved the offense by permitting Freel to play every day. I can't argue that point.

But the deal was made to help the pitching.
that's a fallacy. It implies the only way Freel could play is if Kearns was traded.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2006, 01:24 PM
that's a fallacy. It implies the only way Freel could play is if Kearns was traded.

Yep. Freel not playing everyday was Narron's fault, not Kearns' or Krivsky's.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:25 PM
that's a fallacy. It implies the only way Freel could play is if Kearns was traded.

Maybe. But it also does allow Phillips, Aurilia, Encarnacion, and Freel to be in the lineup every day (if Narron wishes it).

Which is better than the Kearns, Aurilia, Phillips (Freel/Enc platoon) thing we got earlier in the season.

Plus Freel is a much, much better defender than Kearns.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:26 PM
Yep. Freel not playing everyday was Narron's fault, not Kearns' or Krivsky's.I guess the Reds are lucky that Denorfia got first shot and that QM was no longer around (I doubt Jerry could have resisited a switch hitting scrappy old veteran leadoff hitter).

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:27 PM
Philips to SS, Freel to 2B.

just sayin'.

It was obvious the front office wasn't going to shift Phillips to shortstop in the middle of the season. And putting Freel at second would expose some defensive flaws he has playing second base.

One of the reasons for trading Lopez was to improve the infield defense. Shifting Phillips and inserting Freel at second could have possibly weaken two positions instead of strengthening one. I'm not saying Royce Clayton is the answer defensively at shortstop, but to shift Phillips to shortstop would be a big gamble.

TRF
08-15-2006, 01:29 PM
I don't think a single person on this board was 100% against trading either Kearns or Lopez.

But the return was minimal. Kearns was supposed to be valued higher than WMP, but he fetched far less than Pena did, AND Kearns was packaged with FeLo and Wagner.

That's how I know this trade was bad. The value returned was weak.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:31 PM
one of those unintended consequences that has been fortuitous to this point.

Afterall, it was Denorfia's "time" and the talk after the trade was that he would get the majority of the PT in RF.

It doesn't help Denorfia if he is sitting on the bench and not getting any playing time.

And who would you rather have playing RF....Denorfia or Freel? Would you rather have Denorfia leading off instead of Freel? Are you willing to shift Phillips to shortstop, Freel to second in order to get Denorfia in the lineup? And what happens if the infield defense suffers?

People forget how bad the defense was at the beginning of the season. It has gotten better with the exception of Encarncion's throwing errors. To shift infielders around now is just a huge gamble.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:32 PM
Incidentally, Kearns is OPSing .715 in 94 ABs since joining Washington, with one HR.

He's got cobwebs in his soul.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 01:32 PM
I look at one stat, W and L.

Maybe we've scored less. Maybe we've given up more. I don't know. Nor do I care.

Who was pitching against us in those games? What did the line-ups look like that we were playing? Not everything is in black and white. The game is played on the field.

I personally feel much better late in the games when it is time for the bullpen. Not great, but better. Quite a bit better, actually. That is good enough for ME. If others want to try to prove the trade sucked because of numbers while IGNORING the most important numbers of all, wins and losses, go for it.

Its all about numbers on this board. Which is fine, baseball is a numbers game. But some of you seem to forget about the numbers next to Cincinnati Reds in the standings.

We've seen what teams that looked like the Reds early in the season usually end up looking like in late September. Many thought the same of this years Reds, even though they were playing lights out.

The answer? Something had to be done or the Reds would fade like they always do. The trade was made. The prediction? The Reds will still fail, except now it will come faster because we got hosed.

Meanwhile the Reds continue to plod along, winning more than they lose and leading the WC. But still we got robbed.

Think of it folks. A team that didn't belong here before the trade, got hosed in a trade, BIG TIME and they STILL lead the wild card.

If we got hosed and it is going to cost us a play-off spot, can that at least be fact before we go harping on it? When the Reds finish 75 and 97, you'll have plenty of time to tell us how the Reds screwed up.

We're playing the Cards tonight with a chance to get to 1/2 game back and a lot of post are about how we are doomed. Come on people. Knock the chip off your shoulder and enjoy it. Save we're doomed for when we are really doomed.

BRM
08-15-2006, 01:33 PM
Incidentally, Kearns is OPSing .715 in 94 ABs since joining Washington, with one HR.

He's still getting on base at a good clip (.374 OBP) but he's not hitting much.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:34 PM
I don't think a single person on this board was 100% against trading either Kearns or Lopez.

But the return was minimal. Kearns was supposed to be valued higher than WMP, but he fetched far less than Pena did, AND Kearns was packaged with FeLo and Wagner.

That's how I know this trade was bad. The value returned was weak.

Of course if Majeski was pitching like he did last season, the trade wouldn't have been that bad. Fact is Krivsky was bitten by the snake called Bowden. Maybe Bowden sticks to what he said about the medical records showing that Majeski was fine, BUT if he knew he had a sore shoulder and didn't say anything then how ethical is that with dealing with fellow GMs?

Now Krivsky knows why few GMs are willing to deal with Bowden.

VR
08-15-2006, 01:34 PM
Incidentally, Kearns is OPSing .715 in 94 ABs since joining Washington, with one HR.

He's got cobwebs in his soul.

So the juggernaut of Freel, Clayton and Castro is out OPSing Kearns/Felo since the trade?

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:35 PM
He's still getting on base at a good clip (.374 OBP) but he's not hitting much.

His power went in the crapper.

As it always does, year after year after year after year.

He simply does not have what it takes to endure the rigors of a full season and produce at anything but an average level. His career stats will reveal that, I am sure.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:35 PM
And who would you rather have playing RF....Denorfia or Freel?not the point. Obviously the answer is Freel. However, when the trade went down the Reds FO made it clear that they believed it was Denorfia's "time" and he was ready to play regularly in the majors.

When the best thing about a deal is an unintended result that was not a reason for the deal in the first place I guess it tells you all you need to know about how the actual trade participants have performed. Majewski, Bray and Clayton have done little or nothing to make this team better.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:35 PM
So the juggernaut of Freel, Clayton and Castro is out OPSing Kearns/Felo since the trade?

Freel is all by his lonesome. And that's all that matters for the time being.

registerthis
08-15-2006, 01:36 PM
So the juggernaut of Freel, Clayton and Castro is out OPSing Kearns/Felo since the trade?

I think I'd take Clayton out of there, but othewrwise yes.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:37 PM
Of course if Majeski was pitching like he did last season, the trade wouldn't have been that bad. Fact is Krivsky was bitten by the snake called Bowden.fact is anyone looking at Majewski's numbers should have been at least troubled by his soemwhat high BB rate, his low K rate and his fortuitous BABIP. Those were the reasons I didn't like Majewski then and that I don't like him now and won't like him when he is healthy in the future.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:39 PM
not the point. Obviously the answer is Freel. However, when the trade went down the Reds FO made it clear that they believed it was Denorfia's "time" and he was ready to play regularly in the majors.

When the best thing about a deal is an unintended result that was not a reason for the deal in the first place I guess it tells you all you need to know about how the actual trade participants have performed. Majewski, Bray and Clayton have done little or nothing to make this team better.

If Krivsky doesn't try to improve the bullpen (see Dan O'Brien), this team is out of the race by now. With Kearns gone, Freel gets more playing time. As for Denorfia, if he isn't starting how is sitting on the bench helping him?

Not every trade pans out. But if you don't try to improve the ballclub and showing that you want to win (see Dan O'Brien), how do you expect people to show up to watch the games?

ochre
08-15-2006, 01:40 PM
46 44
15 13

That's a monumental improvement.

Krusty
08-15-2006, 01:41 PM
fact is anyone looking at Majewski's numbers should have been at least troubled by his soemwhat high BB rate, his low K rate and his fortuitous BABIP. Those were the reasons I didn't like Majewski then and that I don't like him now and won't like him when he is healthy in the future.

If a guy has a sore shoulder, it isn't going to show up on an X-ray or MRI. And if the GM you're dealing with doesn't mention anything, how do you actually know? You don't. And you're telling me you didn't like this guy when he pitched in 2005? What do you want from a setup man? Rob Dibble?

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 01:45 PM
46 44
15 13

That's a monumental improvement.

It sure isn't the horrific colapse predicted either. Maybe AK and Lopez weren't so key after all?

registerthis
08-15-2006, 01:47 PM
It sure isn't the horrific colapse predicted either. Maybe AK and Lopez weren't so key after all?

I don't think you'd find many here who felt Lopez and kearns were untradeable. That Freel has stepped up and outpeformed Kearns has been an unpexpected bonus, but is not--as others have shown--necessarily something in support of this trade.

ochre
08-15-2006, 01:48 PM
It sure isn't the horrific colapse predicted either. Maybe AK and Lopez weren't so key after all?
Well, I've never said that they were. My main problem is/was/will be that they didn't get appropriate talent back for what they gave up. That's a viable position regardless of how the season plays out, or the performances of the principles for the rest of the season.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:49 PM
I don't think you'd find many here who felt Lopez and kearns were untradeable. That Freel has stepped up and outpeformed Kearns has been an unpexpected bonus, but is not--as others have shown--necessarily something in support of this trade.

I definitely supported shipping Kearns so Freel could play every day. I was 100% in favor of that.

But what I couldn't get behind was who he was traded for.

SteelSD
08-15-2006, 01:49 PM
I look at one stat, W and L.

Then you should be able to answer a really easy question:

Does 20+ Innings Pitched of 2.11 WHIP baseball and an ERA over 7.00 help or hurt a team's chances to win ballgames?

I bet Joe Mays can answer that question. Dave Williams too.

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:49 PM
And you're telling me you didn't like this guy when he pitched in 2005? nope, his numbers weren't any different. He simply misses too few bats which leaves him at the mercy of his defense and the BABIP gods. Which puts him in the same boat with Coffey and Weathers.


What do you want from a setup man? Rob Dibble?Rauch would have been more than acceptable. There are a lot of setup men I would rather have and I wouldn't mind having Dibble.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2006, 01:50 PM
He simply does not have what it takes to endure the rigors of a full season and produce at anything but an average level. His career stats will reveal that, I am sure.

You'd better hope they do, or your credibility will be the thing in the crapper. ;)

flyer85
08-15-2006, 01:51 PM
That Freel has stepped up and outpeformed Kearns has been an unpexpected bonus, but is not--as others have shown--necessarily something in support of this trade.simply an unintended fortunate consequence. The idea at the time was Freel was still going to be a "role player".

Falls City Beer
08-15-2006, 01:51 PM
You'd better hope they do, or your credibility will be the thing in the crapper. ;)

I think Lopez will be just fine (just move him to second base in the offseason); my issue is with Kearns and Kearns alone.

Oops, never mind. I see you meant "Kearns' numbers" when you wrote the pronoun "they."

Yeah, don't worry, I don't expect a raging turnaround of his average career numbers at age 27. It happens. But it doesn't happen very often, and even less often with unathletic guys like Kearns.

TRF
08-15-2006, 02:20 PM
I look at one stat, W and L.

Maybe we've scored less. Maybe we've given up more. I don't know. Nor do I care.


In 1987, Nolan Ryan went 8-16. So I guess that was a bad year for him.

Never mind he had the best ERA in the NL.

Never mind he had the best K/9 and the most strikeouts. And by a wide margin too.

Never mind he was the BEST pitcher in the NL that year. He was 8-16, so therefore he must have sucked right?

W-L's are great as a team stat to see where you finished in regards to championships and titles and such. Those "other" stats tell you why.

VR
08-15-2006, 03:20 PM
Perhaps the Reds could have garnered more. I think there is valid argument that they lost the trade even if Maj/Bray were both sub .300.

All that behind us, I do like the idea that they move into next year with young/ cheap/ good arms, and the freedom from Kearns/ Lopez' salary to compete for a top line starter...knowing that Cast has the stomach to write the checks if necessary.

Ridding themselves of LaRue and Griff and/or Milty's albatross contracts and life only gets better....but I'm thinking only one will go.

VR
08-15-2006, 03:24 PM
Freel is all by his lonesome. And that's all that matters for the time being.

Actually it does matter, as Clayton has matched Lopez' ribby output. We could overlook Castro's production, but let's not do that simply because the stats said it was unlikely. I've got him down for at least two wins/ chance to win for his defense as well.
If we overlook Castro's surge, we should overlook Bray/Maj's output as well, but we don't because, well... I'm not sure on that.

The Reds got lucky on replacing Kearns/Lopez...and unlucky on Maj/Bray.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 04:10 PM
In 1987, Nolan Ryan went 8-16. So I guess that was a bad year for him.

Never mind he had the best ERA in the NL.

Never mind he had the best K/9 and the most strikeouts. And by a wide margin too.

Never mind he was the BEST pitcher in the NL that year. He was 8-16, so therefore he must have sucked right?

W-L's are great as a team stat to see where you finished in regards to championships and titles and such. Those "other" stats tell you why.

Don't stop now, your on a roll.

Except for one key thing. I'm talking about the REDS W-L record, not some individual player.

BIG difference.

Cedric
08-15-2006, 04:13 PM
Perhaps the Reds could have garnered more. I think there is valid argument that they lost the trade even if Maj/Bray were both sub .300.

All that behind us, I do like the idea that they move into next year with young/ cheap/ good arms, and the freedom from Kearns/ Lopez' salary to compete for a top line starter...knowing that Cast has the stomach to write the checks if necessary.

Ridding themselves of LaRue and Griff and/or Milty's albatross contracts and life only gets better....but I'm thinking only one will go.

I'm kinda just glad we don't have to watch Felipe and Kearns go through the motions for the rest of their careers.

And I know people are gonna say that's just some sort of psychology fans do to explain away a trade, but it's not. We should have gotten more for them.

Still, I think Austin Kearns will always be remembered by myself as the player that loafed in the first inning of an opening day game when he by no means was established yet. That in itself doesn't mean he's a bad ballplayer, but it sure tells a lot about his attitude.

TRF
08-15-2006, 04:16 PM
Yah, I get that. But those individual players underlying stats reveal what kind of season you will have. In short, Maj/Bray have done very little if anything to contribute to the Reds wins post trade. And despite Michelak's impressive performance, his career stats say he's not likely to repeat that feat, even against the Pirates.

But by all means, declare the trade a success because the reds got a few wins, despite the fact that Maj sucked every time out except once, and Bray has been average at best.

Ltlabner
08-15-2006, 04:18 PM
When do we get to go back to arguing over whether Dunn's walks and solo-home runs mean anything to the team? :evil:

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 04:23 PM
The team has been a success so I don't think you can say the trade is a disaster that so many are.

I never said the trade was a success. I simply say I agree with it and will give it a chance to prove itself. So far the results have not been great for the Reds and they have not been great for the Nats. But the Reds continue on. As a result of having Bray who you call, average, it has allowed the Reds to get rid of someone who was horrible. To me that is a big help.

Bray is not Mariano Rivera but he isn't Chris Hammond either. As for Majewski, we haven't even seen him yet. Some in the baseball world think he has closer stuff. But then again, we opened the year with David Weathers as our closer.

But nothing has improved, eh?

Team Clark
08-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Great trade. Always will be a great trade. The people who miss their favorite players are the ones who whine the loudest. I especially like the trade now that Freel is proving to be a better OF and more of a positive impact than Kearns ever dreamed. I stated before that I would have hung onto Lopez and I still stand by that. However, the fact remains he is gone and Krivsky will not let Clayton be the starting SS next season. Great trade, Great Trade, Great Trade. Did I mention that this was a great trade?

TRF
08-15-2006, 04:28 PM
Standridge and Shack used properly were better than Maj/Bray. Coffe pitching better helped. Weathers pitching better helped.

Maj has done nothing, Bray has blown a save or two. The return was too small for what the reds gave up regardless of how they were being used. And Lopez is probably a top 10 leadoff hitter right now.

TRF
08-15-2006, 04:31 PM
Great trade. Always will be a great trade. The people who miss their favorite players are the ones who whine the loudest. I especially like the trade now that Freel is proving to be a better OF and more of a positive impact than Kearns ever dreamed. I stated before that I would have hung onto Lopez and I still stand by that. However, the fact remains he is gone and Krivsky will not let Clayton be the starting SS next season. Great trade, Great Trade, Great Trade. Did I mention that this was a great trade?

nope. awful trade, simply awful. Kearns was never a favorite of mine. I defended sending him down last year when he was fat. But he was producing this year, as was Lopez. And the Reds traded them for basically no return.

In fact the best return was Freel's additional PT, which he could have gotten anyway. Trading producing players to make room for producing player, but getting crap in return is not a good trade.

redsfanmia
08-15-2006, 04:33 PM
Standridge and Shack used properly were better than Maj/Bray. Coffe pitching better helped. Weathers pitching better helped.

Maj has done nothing, Bray has blown a save or two. The return was too small for what the reds gave up regardless of how they were being used. And Lopez is probably a top 10 leadoff hitter right now.

np

redsfanmia
08-15-2006, 04:34 PM
Standridge and Shack used properly were better than Maj/Bray. Coffe pitching better helped. Weathers pitching better helped.

Maj has done nothing, Bray has blown a save or two. The return was too small for what the reds gave up regardless of how they were being used. And Lopez is probably a top 10 leadoff hitter right now.

Are you talking about Todd Standrige and Brian Shackleford? Is that Felipe Lopez thats a top 10 lead off hitter? Because unless there are better players with different first name I would have to strongly disagree and most here would as well.

MaineRed
08-15-2006, 04:36 PM
nope. awful trade, simply awful. Kearns was never a favorite of mine. I defended sending him down last year when he was fat. But he was producing this year, as was Lopez. And the Reds traded them for basically no return.

In fact the best return was Freel's additional PT, which he could have gotten anyway. Trading producing players to make room for producing player, but getting crap in return is not a good trade.

crap?

Note to self .....

TRF
08-15-2006, 04:41 PM
You'd be wrong. Of the top 10 players in the NL in stolen bases, FeLo is 5th in SB's and of those 10 players he's got the 5th highest OBP.

That makes him a top 10 leadoff hitter in my book. Most others too.

Shack is unhittable this year vs. LH hitters. Look it up.

Standridge is unhittble vs RH hitters this year. You can look that up too.

All that was need was that they be used properly.

joshnky
08-15-2006, 04:43 PM
I'm guessing since a mod is arguing in this thread it won't be closed but it is certainly beating a dead horse. There is so much hyperbole being thrown around on both sides of this you'd think this was Reds.com. One side mkaes Kearns and Lopez out to be all stars and Bray and Maj as "crap" while the other does the reverse. What a waste of 13 pages. Why don't we talk about the upcoming games for the Reds rather than beating a horse that was dead over a month ago?

BRM
08-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Why don't we talk about the upcoming games for the Reds rather than beating a horse that was dead over a month ago?

People are discussing the upcoming games. Just not in this thread.