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View Full Version : Jerry Narron is a BAD Manager



TheBigLebowski
08-12-2006, 01:22 AM
As if anyone needed more evidence, he provided it tonight.

Firstly, he PH's for EE in the 8th, ostensibly for defensive reasons.

Jerry Narron could have a 7 foot King Cobra's fangs 3 inches deep in his right butt cheek and he would call animal control in lieu of an ambulance.

I don't know when he's going to figure it out but, his late-inning liability is his bullpen - NOT EDWIN ENCARNACION. The chances of EE making a game-changing error in the late innings pale in comparison to the chances of our "newly improved!" bullpen blowing a lead. Thus, with the move, we lose EE's bat (2 HR's tonight, btw) and inherit Castro's. Predictably, the bully blew the lead, and we had 5 innings of extra baseball w/o EE's bat.

Secondly, why the hell did Narron get Harang warmed up to throw only one inning? It was questionable in the first place to involve him but, if you choose to do so, why pull him as soon as he appears to have it working in favor of EZ who, aside from being VERY undependable as of late, is TOMORROW'S STARTER???? Hell, use Cormier! Keep Harang in for a second inning! What the hell is the justification for that move??

Lastly...you all knew it was coming.....walking Ryan Howard with runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs. Pitcher up next.

Howard is hitting .293, so we'll round that up to .300. To those of you in Tallahassee, FL, that means he'll get a base hit 3 out of every 10 times he hits. Of course, he is one of the best power hitters in the game, so the chances that he'll hit a HR or double are greater than, say, Ryan Freel, another player who has a similar batting average. The difference in this situation is that a single hurts you just as badly as a HR, as a single would almost assuredly score the runner at 2nd and end the game the same way a 3 run HR would.

So...to recap, we have runners at 1st and 2nd with no outs as visitors in extras, with Howard at the plate, in a situation in which a single basically creates the same effect as a HR. With the pitcher on deck, seems reasonable to believe that you have a 70% chance of retiring Howard (ok, maybe a 55=60% chance with Lizard pitching) and then getting the pitcher. Instead, Narron throws the odds out the window and IBB Howard, loading the bases with no outs, putting the winning run at third with no outs. That's right - no outs. The chances of a hitter getting a runner home from third with no outs is exponentially higher than the chances of Ryan Howard scoring a base hit.

I just don't see how anyone cannot reasonably ascertain that we are in the WC Lead today because of a poor NL, some overachieving players, and a couple of fortuitous trades (2 and 3 overlap; see: Arroyo, Bronson) instead of Narron's managing. I daresay he is one of the worst managers in baseball.

flyer85
08-12-2006, 01:25 AM
Nothing can excuse the 14th inning meltdown. I would have done things differently up to the 14th but I could see his reasoning though I may not have agreed.

However, in the 14th I have no idea why cormier did not pitch. Afterall the inning set up well for him and then there is no explanantion that can suffice for walking Howard with runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs. The Phillies still needed a hit but Narron gave them a bunch of new ways to win the game.

marcshoe
08-12-2006, 01:26 AM
As I said on the game thread, you don't walk the winning run to third as a visitor in extra innings, even if the next batter is Eddie Gaedel. That was just beyond stupid. I'm sorry, but how deep do you have to think to figure out that you are really stacking the odds against you?

LoganBuck
08-12-2006, 01:34 AM
The game was lost when he brought Bray in to face the right handers. Why did they trade for more bullpen arms if they can't even use lefty/righty matchups? Why not Coffey!

Also Guardado does not match up well with pesky guys like that Coste apparently is. With his lack of stuff, the longer a guy hangs around up there the more likely he is to make good contact.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2006, 01:35 AM
The apologists will soon follow, so I'd better get in my $0.02 early...

Narron's management of the pitching staff is criminal. He yanks Lohse early and brings on Weathers, who pitches for 2/3 inning. He follows with Bray, his latest workhorse who is obviously tired and didn't have it tonight for 2/3 inning after allowing three runs. He goes to Coffey for 1/3 inning and immediately (next inning) brings in Eddie to save. all well and good except Eddie is the victim of an error (not two as many have fantasized) which ties it up. From here on it gets bizarre.

He brings in Mercker for one (probably all he can do) and Franklin for two. He's down to only Cormier among relief pitchers. So he comes back with Harang, his ace, and EZ, his [b]flipping starting pitcher for tomorrow.{/b]

He walks Ryan to load the bases, puching the winning run to third so he can score on a fly ball (stupidest move of the year).

Does Tom Hume not have input (sorry, I know he doesn't)? They need to hire a pitching coach who can set Jerry straight.

I could go on and on, but I will continue to repeat what I said at the extension and even before that when he was appoint to be Dave Miley's replacement.

We will never be a championship team with Jerry Narron as manager.

LoganBuck
08-12-2006, 01:40 AM
Does anyone get the feeling that Narron would be better suited managing a little league game where full roster participation is mandatory?

TOBTTReds
08-12-2006, 02:05 AM
As I said on the game thread, you don't walk the winning run to third as a visitor in extra innings, even if the next batter is Eddie Gaedel. That was just beyond stupid. I'm sorry, but how deep do you have to think to figure out that you are really stacking the odds against you?

He had a small strike zone. He would have walked in the winning run.

BCubb2003
08-12-2006, 02:15 AM
Call me an apologist or just a devil's advocate, but I think every step of the way, there were two unappealing options, one of which might have worked and one might have blown up. I don't agree with a lot of the things Narron does, but he kept the game alive for 14 innings.

Taking Lohse out? We used to blast Narron for leaving the starter in too long when things started to come undone in the sixth and seventh. You have a new bullpen, Jerry, use it, we used to say. Of course, the bullpen is not as "fixed" as we thought it was, but still. It's possible that leaving Lohse in would have ruined his nice outing and lost the game right there.

Taking Edwin out? Yeah, I know. But see David "walk-off hero" Ross's bad throw.

Using Harang for one inning? Somebody in the game thread predicted Harang would be closing, but nobody wants to see him pitch three or four innings in relief. Obviously Narron's plan was to throw each guy in there for one inning and hope the damage (to the chances of winning the game and to the pitchers' readiness for their next games) would be minimal.

Walking Ryan Howard? Creative, and Narron will be roasted for it, but he went for a sure out and a chance at a double play. In the 14th inning, when your starting pitchers have been pinchhitting and pitching in relief, there just aren't any good answers anymore.

Not pitching Cormier? That I don't know. Maybe's he hurt. Maybe the ball he was coloring was going to be auctioned off to help sick kids. Maybe he's starting later today.

Kc61
08-12-2006, 02:15 AM
A few big points to stress.

1. Bray is a good young reliever who is obviously so overworked that he is ineffective. He is not the everyday set up man. He should pitch two or three times a week. Once he regains his form he can pitch two innings sometimes. But the guy needs some rest. He is going to get hurt if the overuse continues. (Coffey can use some rest too.)

2. EE is the best righty hitter on the team. He may be the best hitter on the team. His defense has been fine of late. He should not go out for defense in the seventh or eighth inning of close games. (If you want to make a real defensive move late in games, it should involve centerfield.)

3. RA needs to play shortstop every day against righty pitchers. The team needs both EE and RA in the lineup. The bottom of the order is not producing and the obvious guy who should be added is Aurilia. Phillips should not hit sixth. RA should play short and hit sixth and Phillips and the catcher at the bottom.

4. Ramirez should not start for awhile. Like Bray he is 23 and he has obviously hit a wall. He probably should be sent down or DLd and rested until Sept 1. I haven't given up on the kid, but it is obvious he has nothing right now.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2006, 02:20 AM
Call me an apologist or just a devil's advocate, but I think every step of the way, there were two unappealing options, one of which might have worked and one might have blown up. I don't agree with a lot of the things Narron does, but he kept the game alive for 14 innings.

And that's a good thing? I'd rather lose in 9 and not deplete the pitching staff.

2001MUgrad
08-12-2006, 03:19 AM
Narron might be good off the field, but his in game decisons are starting to serriously cost this team. He needs to start being accountable for his foolish moves, simply saying I'm not making any excuses, blah blah blah, isn't cutting it anymore. Same Ol', Same Ol'.

marcshoe
08-12-2006, 04:26 AM
He had a small strike zone. He would have walked in the winning run.

Okay, that was a bad example. I was just trying to think of the worst batter possible.

All right, then, even if I was the next batter. :bang:

Ron Madden
08-12-2006, 04:37 AM
Jerry Narron is a BAD Manager.

No kiddin'

REDREAD
08-12-2006, 05:51 AM
What I find amazing is that Narron has a 12 man pitching staff, yet it seems like every day he's shorthanded and/or at least one guy is worn out.

I think he should've just left Franklin in there until the end came. Franklin is supposed to be the long guy, right? IIRC, Arroyo was warming up too. Seems crazy to burn through all your starting pitchers in a game like that.

Now he's greatly reduced our chances of winning tommorrow. The Phils got a good look at the Lizard. I expect them to come out hitting, and then the bullpen is going to have another LONG day.

At this point, I think they ought to just DL Cormier if he has a hip problem and call up a long guy. Even if he sucks, we need a guy to eat innings out of the pen so that Bray and Weathers aren't pitching every day, and then are worn out when we need them to perform. I thought Franklin was going to be that long guy. Sure, we lose Cormier for 15 days if we DL him, but it's not as if he's been gold anyway. Plus, it seems like he can only face 1 or 2 batters at a time.

GAC
08-12-2006, 07:00 AM
As if anyone needed more evidence, he provided it tonight.

Firstly, he PH's for EE in the 8th, ostensibly for defensive reasons.

Jerry Narron could have a 7 foot King Cobra's fangs 3 inches deep in his right butt cheek and he would call animal control in lieu of an ambulance.

I don't know when he's going to figure it out but, his late-inning liability is his bullpen - NOT EDWIN ENCARNACION. The chances of EE making a game-changing error in the late innings pale in comparison to the chances of our "newly improved!" bullpen blowing a lead. Thus, with the move, we lose EE's bat (2 HR's tonight, btw) and inherit Castro's. Predictably, the bully blew the lead, and we had 5 innings of extra baseball w/o EE's bat.

First - I too didn't like the fact that they took EE out, but do you think EE would have made that excellent grab that Freel did at 3B later in the game that kept the score tied? Maybe, maybe not.

But putting a better glove in there defensively in the bottom of the 8th with a 2 run lead was not a bad move IMO. Bray blew it.


Secondly, why the hell did Narron get Harang warmed up to throw only one inning? It was questionable in the first place to involve him but, if you choose to do so, why pull him as soon as he appears to have it working in favor of EZ who, aside from being VERY undependable as of late, is TOMORROW'S STARTER???? Hell, use Cormier! Keep Harang in for a second inning! What the hell is the justification for that move??

Harang is not scheduled to pitch again till Tuesday. Throwing an inning was not gonna hurt him. It shows how important Narron thought this game was. Besides, both of these teams had used up their bench - which is gonna happen in a 14 inning game inwhich neither team seemed to want to win it. Both sides had to use pitchers to PH.


Lastly...you all knew it was coming.....walking Ryan Howard with runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs. Pitcher up next.

You'd rather pitch to the guy who is leading the NL in Hrs and RBIs in that situation with the pitcher due up next? They were already in a pinch with two men on - take the bat out of this guy's hand and if anyone is gonna beat you then it's gonna be the pitcher not a Howard. The pitcher came up with bases loaded and that presents greater possibilities/odds (as slim as they were) to get out of the inning. And he did K.

Yes, the odds were against us in that situation; but I'd sure rather not take those chances vs Howard.


So...to recap, we have runners at 1st and 2nd with no outs as visitors in extras, with Howard at the plate, in a situation in which a single basically creates the same effect as a HR. With the pitcher on deck, seems reasonable to believe that you have a 70% chance of retiring Howard (ok, maybe a 55=60% chance with Lizard pitching) and then getting the pitcher.

There's alot of guesswork/subjectiveness right there BL. A 70% chance of geting Howard out? You get the pitcher out (which they did) and then induce a groundball, you have the opp for a DP, force out at home, and getting out of the inning. Once you get that first out, then it opens up greater possibilities. But you gotta get that first out.

And also remember - Howard is no speedster at 1B. An INF GB and you have an excellent chance of a DP and to get out of that inning. ;)


I just don't see how anyone cannot reasonably ascertain that we are in the WC Lead today because of a poor NL, some overachieving players, and a couple of fortuitous trades (2 and 3 overlap; see: Arroyo, Bronson) instead of Narron's managing. I daresay he is one of the worst managers in baseball.

This game was lost because of our two achille's heels.... some bad defense in key situations, poor pitching by Bray, and ALSO...

Dunn 0 fer 6
Phillips 0 fer 6
Freel 1 fer 6
Griffey 1 fer 5
Hatteberg 1 fer 5

And with the exception of Geary and Rick White (both have 3+ ERAs - who would have thunk that of White), 5 of your key players went a combined 3 fer 28 in this game and vs pitchers with ERAs over 5.

These guys really let us down in very key situations with men on base.

Both of these managers were pulling out all the stops, because they knew how critical games like this are in August, and throwing everything out there trying to get that winning run across.

I'll agree with you BL that I probably wouldn't have pulled EE. But other then that, the players on the field and at that plate lost this game, not Narron.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2006, 07:41 AM
Does anyone get the feeling that Narron would be better suited managing a little league game where full roster participation is mandatory?

Has he ever taken a team to the playoffs?
Has he ever had a winning record in the majors?
Has any teams with a good chance of making the post season ever let him manage their team?

I think that he is well suited for coaching a girls basketball team, where he can make frequent substitutions and even take out his best/hot handed point guards at the moment when trailing going into the 4th qrt.

GAC
08-12-2006, 08:02 AM
Has he ever taken a team to the playoffs?
Has he ever had a winning record in the majors?
Has any teams with a good chance of making the post season ever let him manage their team?

I think that he is well suited for coaching a girls basketball team, where he can make frequent substitutions and even take out his best/hot handed point guards at the moment when trailing going into the 4th qrt.

But he has only had one other managing opportunity, and with a Texas team that was pretty devoid of pitching. Small window. ;)

This team is above .500 the last I checked. Does this guy get any credit at all for that.... or is it blame Narron for when we lose - and when we win it's in spite of Narron. Doesn't make sense to me.

He's been putting out some solid lineups/batting orders as of late.... and even has EE at cleanup.

I'm not denying that this guy hasn't made some bad gametime decisions this year. But even the best do that.

You slide a Pinella, Johnson, or Anderson in there right now as manager and I bet you'd seen no difference in approach based on the talent they have. They'd be just as shell-shocked IMO.

You can only squeeze so much juice out of a lemon. ;)

Jerry Narron has worked his way up the ranks, gained alot of knowledge and experience of the game in the years he has spent in various coaching positions. In fact, a few current ML managers have said that if the Reds had not hired him, they would have.

As it has already been stated.... the guy has forgotten more about the game then many know.

MrCinatit
08-12-2006, 08:33 AM
Upon seeing the results of the game, my first thought was "How did Narron outmanage himself this time?"
It seems the man consistently manages himself into a corner at least twice a week.
The last I heard when going into work last night had been the Edwin double switch - there is absolutely no reason you take your hottest hitter out of the lineup in a two-run game. None. He was responsible for all of the runs, and half of the hits. Especially when you have a hitting black hole named Royce Clayton anywhere in the lineup. Especially when the last guy up the previous inning was mired in a 1-20 slump.
I will echo what WV said: There is no way we put a championship team on the field with Narron as manager. I do hope I am wrong - but I do not think the man is capable of keeping his head on straight during a pressure situation.
I shudder to think what he would do in a playoff situation.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2006, 08:59 AM
But he has only had one other managing opportunity,

I certainly can see why. ;)

"This team is above .500 the last I checked. Does this guy get any credit at all for that...."

"Credit for that"? No, I would credit the weak National league to date


He's been putting out some solid lineups/batting orders as of late.... and even has EE at cleanup.

"as of late", meaning just recently? ;)



You slide a Pinella, Johnson, or Anderson in there right now as manager and I bet you'd seen no difference in approach

Blasphemer! These guys would have managed the bullpen better, they would have had the "solid lineup" long before now, and they would have made those timely manager type decisions. They have shown they know how to win and to get the best out of their personel.



You can only squeeze so much juice out of a lemon. ;)


Finally something we can agree upon. True you can only squeeze so much juice out a lemon, um, Narron.

Crash Davis
08-12-2006, 09:03 AM
A few big points to stress.

1. Bray is a good young reliever who is obviously so overworked that he is ineffective. He is not the everyday set up man. He should pitch two or three times a week. Once he regains his form he can pitch two innings sometimes. But the guy needs some rest. He is going to get hurt if the overuse continues. (Coffey can use some rest too.)
I agree. Kudos for pointing out Bray's overuse.


2. EE is the best righty hitter on the team.
No doubt.
He may be the best hitter on the team.
Whoa, there.


3. RA needs to play shortstop every day against righty pitchers.
Against righties? Aurilia hits lefties significantly better than righties. Brain cramp? And he's still a statue at shortstop.


4. Ramirez should not start for awhile. Like Bray he is 23 and he has obviously hit a wall. He probably should be sent down or DLd and rested until Sept 1. I haven't given up on the kid, but it is obvious he has nothing right now.
Well said. You might be on to something here. Jon Lieber is eminently available...and the cost is low. If he can pitch like a healthy Lieber, his 7.5M contract for '07 isn't all that bad.

redsmetz
08-12-2006, 09:58 AM
You know I saw Whitey Herzog manage this game nearly 20 years ago, Cards vs. Braves and they used everyone but the head usher. Jose Oquendo became the first position player to receive a pitching decision (a loss, but he almost got the win) in umpteen years.

The fact is Narron's decisions coming up to the regulation time did not lose this game. Young Bray and the oldster Guardado blew it. It was a game that got away and frankly, I thought he did reasonably decent job making the moves he did.

Harrang? Nuxhall noted it would have been his day for side throwing, might as well get in an inning. Ramierez? He three 35-40 pitches his last outing and only threw 15 last night. That's not ruining your rotation.

I swear we ought to put a bottle of Chill Pills on the opening page of this board. Folks get their shorts in a bunch so quickly.

I was disappointed, I was pessimistic, but the truth is if some of our guys would have shown some offensive life in that game (Dunn, Griffey [yes, I know he got on twice], Phillips); if our relievers get their jobs done (they're paid to do that, you know - Narron's not pitching the ball out there!), we win this game.

The mantra is, it's just one game. That's true, but the clock's ticking and we can ill afford to let opportunities to move up on St. Louis or preserve our lead in the Wild Card get away.

It's going to be a tough finish to this season. We might well be thin in many areas. But this club is playing far better than anyone expect and the pundits are still trying to bury us, but let's get back at it.

And last night's loss was anybody's fault but Jerry Narron's.

Krusty
08-12-2006, 11:01 AM
Two ways I look at it....

1. The Reds are exceeding everyone's expectations and playing .500 ball this season.

2. On the otherhand, when you're in a pennant race you have to find a way to win these games. The Reds had their opportunities and blew it. Games like this determines whether you'll make it to the playoffs.

Even Krivsky admits he is happy with the way the season has gone, there is much work to be done. I guess you have to learn to walk first before you can run.

GAC
08-12-2006, 12:06 PM
Blasphemer! These guys would have managed the bullpen better

Captain Hook and Lou Pinella better manage a bullpen? :lol:

First off -they had far better talent in that BP. Secondly - they use to nail Pinella for the way he utilized his bullpen and was going to ruin the arms of pitchers (both in Cincy and Seattle). ;)

GAC
08-12-2006, 12:09 PM
Two ways I look at it....

1. The Reds are exceeding everyone's expectations and playing .500 ball this season.

Unless you're the Yanks or Boston - most teams are gonna have to exceed their expectations to get to the post-season. And that includes some of the past Reds teams that have made it. Look at 1990?

The 1973 Mets were a very average team with a 82-79 record, yet found a way to get to the WS. ;)

GullyFoyle
08-12-2006, 12:43 PM
Taking Edwin out? Yeah, I know. But see David "walk-off hero" Ross's bad throw.


I'm not sure what the point is here, but it is very likely that Ross' throwing error didn't cost the Reds anything. If the batter succesfully sacrifes the player to third you end up with the exact same situation (since the batter struckout after the error). Of course you can't be certain, but its not really that hard to get the guy to third with an out.

Kc61
08-12-2006, 02:18 PM
Two ways I look at it....

1. The Reds are exceeding everyone's expectations and playing .500 ball this season.

2. On the otherhand, when you're in a pennant race you have to find a way to win these games. The Reds had their opportunities and blew it. Games like this determines whether you'll make it to the playoffs.

Even Krivsky admits he is happy with the way the season has gone, there is much work to be done. I guess you have to learn to walk first before you can run.

True. But if the Nats trade had worked out such that the Reds now had a steady eighth inning reliever and Guardado in the ninth, these kinds of games could be won and the Reds could be a more legitimate contender.

I have a number of disagreements with Narron, but the truth is that the bullpen trades have provided depth, but have not given him that one bullpen stud who can regularly hold on in close games. The Reds could be "running" right now, instead of walking, as you say.

max venable
08-12-2006, 02:26 PM
I like the fact that we're finally good enough to be griping about our manager. If this team was 15 games back, nobody would paying Narron much attention. It would just be a bad team. But now that we're in contention...heck yeah! Narron stinks! :D

Highlifeman21
08-12-2006, 02:57 PM
Last night was painful to watch in person. Talk about a rollercoaster of emotions...

A couple observations:

1. Mr. Bray needs to fall out of love with his slider, or if he continues to love it, throw it out of the strikezone every now and then.

2. I don't know who had the worst night, Griffey, Dunn, Phillips or Hollandsworth. I think they were a combined 1 for 20. That's right, 1 for 20.

3. EE being taken out of that game was nothing short of a criminal act. When you see Ross, Clayton, Castro as your 7,8,9 as the innings marched on, wow.

4. Lohse actually looked decent for 6.1. It's a shame the rest of the 7th, the 8th and the 9th innings happened.

5. Seeing 22 of the 25 players on the roster appear in the game was something. Not sure what that something is, but it was something.

Lastly, Elizardo needs some help. Again, not sure exactly what, but he needs some help.

Redsland
08-12-2006, 03:04 PM
5. Seeing 22 of the 25 players on the roster appear in the game was something. Not sure what that something is, but it was something.
Worse than that, it was 23 by my count. (All except Frenchy and Cornrows.)

Tony Cloninger
08-12-2006, 03:52 PM
Narron is not a "veteran" manager. He does not have 5 years as a manager....let alone managing a team in a pennant race.
He might be starting to overuse Bray........he needs to let EE play 9 and not develop a personal caddie for him... ala....Sammy Mejias for Dave Collins in the late innings.

He is learning on job about the pressures of managing in a pennant race.
Like all rookies....he is making at least 1 or 2 mistakes a game...that seem to be picked apart by a majority of people here.

I see a lot of blame to go around.....yet the people who detest JN....will call him out more than anything else.
I see some people saying they should have let Loshe in.....when almost all the time JN gets blasted for not seeing when a pitcher has lost it.
People calling out the fact Weathers and Coffey barely pitched.....YET at the same time writing that they are overworked.
This is the dog days of August....everyone not on some form of HGH or greenies...is going to be tired or hurt at some point during these last 2 months.
People hate JN.....i get it.... i dislike some of his moves also, just like Miley, Boone, Pinella, Davey Johnson.....even Sparky.
I just do not use him as the main scapegoat for a team that is average now...and played over their heads for the first 60 games.

KronoRed
08-12-2006, 04:50 PM
Worse than that, it was 23 by my count. (All except Frenchy and Cornrows.)
I like the nicknames


So how come Frrenchy didn't pitch? :D

Matt700wlw
08-12-2006, 05:54 PM
As if anyone needed more evidence, he provided it tonight.

Firstly, he PH's for EE in the 8th, ostensibly for defensive reasons.

.

That's not that big of a deal...you don't manage as if you're going to blow a lead and go 14 innings....

I have no problem with bringing Castro in for defense late in the game (8th inning, when Eddie's turn in the lineup "shouldn't" come up again).

TheBigLebowski
08-12-2006, 06:24 PM
That's not that big of a deal...you don't manage as if you're going to blow a lead and go 14 innings....

I have no problem with bringing Castro in for defense late in the game (8th inning, when Eddie's turn in the lineup "shouldn't" come up again).

When your bullpen blows as many games as ours has, it's something you need to consider. It ain't as if we have Wetteland and Rivera to throw the 8th and 9th.

Tony Cloninger
08-12-2006, 06:32 PM
But if you have to manage thinking that a lead could be blown in the 8th and 9th innings....even with the revamped bullpen.....than you are already managing scared and stupid to begin with...don't you think?

You are always going to come out being second guessed no matter what....with as many games this bullpen has blown before the 9th.

Posts here about leaving the SP too long....not long enough......Why Weathers? Why Bray? Why not keep Weathers out there for another inning?
Why Coffey? Coffey should have pitched another inning!
Trying to play the 2nd guess game ....EVERY single game..... every single decision.....after the fact more often than not.....while JN has to figure it out right there and then....if only Krisken was available as bench coach.

He makes some very obvious mistakes......no denying that.
But i still put in on the players way more than i do the manager.
They are way more accountable for last nights loss ...and a lot of others.

redsmetz
08-12-2006, 06:33 PM
He makes some very obvious mistakes......no denying that.
But i still put in on the players way more than i do the manager.
They are way more accountable for last nights loss ...and a lot of others.

Absolutely, you've hit it right on the head. These guys are professionals and they're supposed to do their job. Last night, too many didn't.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2006, 07:53 PM
First off -they had far better talent in that BP. Secondly - they use to nail Pinella for the way he utilized his bullpen and was going to ruin the arms of pitchers (both in Cincy and Seattle). ;)

Thought that you were getting too old and might have forgotten those vital points, tried to slip the ole slurve by you and here you bring them up....:devil: Ok, who did you PM for help!:evil:

redsfanmia
08-12-2006, 10:19 PM
Who would do a better job than Narron? Yes he drives me crazy sometimes but damn he has done a good job. I thought the Reds would be 20 games out of first by now.

2001MUgrad
08-12-2006, 11:20 PM
I don't like the man's every day lineup here lately. Royce Clayton has worn out his welcome. Dunn hits better in the second hole. If Junior is going to play every day he doesn't need to be in CF and batting 3rd. RA's bat is needed in the game on a daily basis and not at the expense of EE.

Jpup
08-12-2006, 11:29 PM
Who would do a better job than Narron?

me. ;)

marcshoe
08-13-2006, 02:23 AM
Last night, Farney.

GAC
08-13-2006, 06:09 AM
The way EE played last night at 3B - made some excellent plays and seemingly one bad throw - the reasoning to pull him in the late innings is fading fast. You can tell that the extra work and commitment is starting to pay off.

KronoRed
08-13-2006, 06:18 AM
me. ;)
Hire him :cool:

Jpup
08-13-2006, 06:59 AM
Hire him :cool:

I work cheap. :D

Crash Davis
08-16-2006, 10:33 PM
Well said. You might be on to something here. Jon Lieber is eminently available...and the cost is low. If he can pitch like a healthy Lieber, his 7.5M contract for '07 isn't all that bad.

Get him now. Shoutout the Mets tonight, and he's been pitching very well the last few times out...contenders will be knocking on the Phillies door for him. We should have gambled on him 2 weeks ago when they were giving him away.

remdog
08-16-2006, 11:49 PM
OK, I've read through this entire thread and for the Narron apologists, whether you consider Jerry a rookie or working with minimal talent on the roster or whatever, the bottom line is that the headline of this thread is still true. Jerry Narron is a BAD Manager

He makes poor decisions whatever the circumstances and, frankly, that's why he qualifies as a bad manager. (shrug)

Rem

Ltlabner
08-17-2006, 09:14 AM
I know numbers to support your argument is very importnant in these parts.

Check out Jerry's win/loss record. I'd hardly say a manager who is at/around/slightly above .500 is a BAD manager.

Unfortuntaly for the Reds, that doesn't make him a particulary GOOD manager either.

Strikes Out Looking
08-17-2006, 09:24 AM
He is a GOOD clubhouse guy in his relationships with his players.
He is BAD when it comes to on the field decisions, even if they sometimes work out.

MaineRed
08-17-2006, 01:18 PM
me. ;)

Really?

You think you could manage 25 guys at once and keep them all happy?

What would you have done when Edwin was on pace for 40 errors or whatever it was? Would you have kept penciling him in the line-up or would you have determined that he needed out of game work?

When Lopez was still here, what would you have done with Rich? Would you have Edwin doing what he is doing, playing better D at this point as well as have 17 HRs out of Rich, while keeping Phillips, Lopez AND Hatte all happy as well? Narron has done an excellent job in this regard and he gets NO credit. Rich, Edwin, Hatte, Phillips, Freel and Lopez (when he was here) all deserved to play. Narron not only kept them happy but productive. Props to him for that. We're not where we are right now if these guys are all pouting around because they aren't playing everyday. Larue has made a little noise but nobody else. These guys go out and play for Narron.

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 01:48 PM
Really?

You think you could manage 25 guys at once and keep them all happy?

What would you have done when Edwin was on pace for 40 errors or whatever it was? Would you have kept penciling him in the line-up or would you have determined that he needed out of game work?

When Lopez was still here, what would you have done with Rich? Would you have Edwin doing what he is doing, playing better D at this point as well as have 17 HRs out of Rich, while keeping Phillips, Lopez AND Hatte all happy as well? Narron has done an excellent job in this regard and he gets NO credit. Rich, Edwin, Hatte, Phillips, Freel and Lopez (when he was here) all deserved to play. Narron not only kept them happy but productive. Props to him for that. We're not where we are right now if these guys are all pouting around because they aren't playing everyday. Larue has made a little noise but nobody else. These guys go out and play for Narron.

I'm thinking of nominating him for the Nobel Peace Price.

I will say what you've listed is the major story of this year. I think we forget how much this all could have blown up. And frankly, I think EE is a better player today for having worked through things the way he has.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:51 PM
without a doubt. I have never seen a manager make as many boneheaded decisions.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:52 PM
I said when they gave him his extension that they should have waited and see what happens.

I still stand by that (playoffs or not).

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:54 PM
I said when they gave him his extension that they should have waited and see what happens.

I still stand by that (playoffs or not).The angry guys have it right, Naroon.

BRM
08-17-2006, 05:56 PM
The angry guys have it right, Naroon.

Is he getting ripped for today's game on the radio already?

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:04 PM
Is he getting ripped for today's game on the radio already?Skinner has been on him most of the summer about a lot of his in-game decisions and Gamble has taken to calling him Naroon.

I'm sure the mayor of Pleasantville is all happy, happy, joy, joy

Marc D
08-17-2006, 06:34 PM
Griffey still plays CF and hits 3rd everyday. It sure isn't because we lack other guys who can play a better CF or be more productive in the 3 hole.
If Narron is so effective at managing the personalities someone explain Griffey's little meltdown to the media when the idea he move out of those two roles was even mentioned. Narron's lack of ability to manage Jr's ego is a major road block to putting the best 8 guys out there every night. How is he not held somewhat accountable for that given his supporters focus on his being a clubhouse guy?

I've said it all year and stand by it now, Narron is Boone/Miley with better pitching. No one is clamoring for the return of Boone or Miley and no one would be singing the clubhouse guy tune if Arroyo, Harang and EZ didn't pitch out of their skulls for half a year.

Ltlabner
08-17-2006, 06:46 PM
No one is clamoring for the return of Boone or Miley and no one would be singing the clubhouse guy tune if Arroyo, Harang and EZ didn't pitch out of their skulls for half a year.

But because I think Narron works well with the players doen't mean I think he's manager of the year, or even a good manager for that matter.

Because you can see that he does something well, and don't think he's the baseball anti-christ, doesn't mean you think he's perfect or without fault.

I've posted several times that I think Narron's weakness is handling the pitching staff. I could give a crap about EE vs RA or "the trade". What will cost the team in the end is pitching (either lack their of, or mismanagement their of). I didn't get to hear the game but from what little of the game thread I read it appears that was the main problem today.

The bigger issue was using Coffey last night when he didn't need too so that in Narron's mind he wasn't "available" tonight when he was really needed. Those are the kind of mistakes that cost the team wins both in the short term, and long term.

Rojo
08-17-2006, 08:32 PM
I think he should've just left Franklin in there until the end came. Franklin is supposed to be the long guy, right? IIRC, Arroyo was warming up too. Seems crazy to burn through all your starting pitchers in a game like that.

My thoughts exactly. When you head to extra innings on the road, just stick the long guy in there, even let him hit with nobody on base, and hope for the best. You're likely going to loose, don't shred your pitching staff.

Marc D
08-18-2006, 12:08 AM
Because you can see that he does something well, and don't think he's the baseball anti-christ, doesn't mean you think he's perfect or without fault.


Agreed. I think he does work well with the players, they seem to play harder this year but then again winning(to whatever degree) cures all ills. As far as thinking he is beyond reproach, there are a few on here running around using the line Narron has forgotten more about baseball than most here will ever know. I find it difficult to interpret that any other way than he's beyond reproach.

I'm sure Narrons a fine person and a good boss, however his poor in game management skills cost this team a lot more than his clubhouse demenor makes up for imo. I pray he's shown the door when/if WK assembles a team thats a legit WS threat.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 12:18 AM
Agreed. I think he does work well with the players, they seem to play harder this year but then again winning(to whatever degree) cures all ills. As far as thinking he is beyond reproach, there are a few on here running around using the line Narron has forgotten more about baseball than most here will ever know. I find it difficult to interpret that any other way than he's beyond reproach.

I'm sure Narrons a fine person and a good boss, however his poor in game management skills cost this team a lot more than his clubhouse demenor makes up for imo. I pray he's shown the door when/if WK assembles a team thats a legit WS threat.

Jerry Narron's like the Picture of Dorian Gray: the more he sucks, the more people defend him.

Or something....

WVRedsFan
08-18-2006, 12:57 AM
No doubt this mystery will never be solved. No matter how bad someone is, he will have his defenders who will swear to the high heavens that he was handicapped by this for that, didn't have enough time, or is a nice guy who had a good atmosphere in the clubhouse.

Once upon a time, West Virginia had a football coach named Frank Cignetti. Frank got fired for going 5-6, 2-9, and 5-6 in successive seasons. He was horrible. He was horrible at in-game decisions and couldn't recruit well. After a 12-21 record, they let him go and hired Don Nehlen and the rest is history. Nehlen was a diciple of Michigan Bo and all he did was come in, stay 20 years and have two undefeated teams, no mean feat at WVU. But still there are those who maintain that Nehlen lived off of Cignetti's recruiting. It amazes me that Cignetti can be defended, but given credit for all the success that followed, but never underestimate the power of the fan who thinks his team's management can do no wrong. (BTW, Cignetti later went on to coach a couple of National Championship teams at Indiana University of Pennsylvania--Division 2, I think, but that's my point).

Yes, Jerry has guided a winning season so far, but Jerry also has had at least 100% better pitching than Miley or Boone. It's what goes on during the game that disturbs me. And the future disturbs me. No amount of "Narron has had a poor (enter favorite phrase here) and he deserves another chance," excuses make up for his philosophies, IMHO. Two years from now if Krivsky has a great club in place, the results will probably show we're no closer to winning a WS than we were this year. The extension was simply ignorant given the fact that he had all of 6 months of experience managing this club. I can't imagine how he will be defended if we make the playoffs and he has no solid relief to pitch in the deciding game. But they will, I'm sure.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 01:10 AM
Get him now. Shoutout the Mets tonight, and he's been pitching very well the last few times out...contenders will be knocking on the Phillies door for him. We should have gambled on him 2 weeks ago when they were giving him away.

Yeah, I was hoping to grab him at the deadline, just because we desparately needed a 5th starter. Although I can't complain how Lohse is pitching so far though.

I would've liked to test Bob's promise to take on salary with a Leiber trade though :laugh:

Considering that the Reds knew more about Claussen's health than we did, it would've been prudent to grab Leiber (along with Lohse) to shore up the rotation. Leiber would've been a lot more useful than Cormier. Heck, with Leiber's salary, we might've been able to get him without giving up Geranamo.