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Edskin
08-12-2006, 02:17 AM
This......is.....my.....best......way......to..... ..describe.....how.....it......feels....to......wa tch.....the......Reds.....this.....year.

OK, I think you've got the point.

The other night after the Ross HR, many people started calling this team "special." While I've been a defender of Wayne and while I've been calling for enjoyment of the race regardless of the circumstances, I must say, that I do not think this team is "special."

This team plays hard, they've exceeded most expecations, and they are fairly fun to watch. However, they are just average.

Occasionally, a "just average" team can soar to great heights if they truly have the right mix of "specialness." But this team just doesn't have it.

Tonight's game was a fantastic example. We had a bunch of heroes tonight. The team played their guts out-- gave it their all.

But when the offense stepped it up in the 9th, the bullpen blew it. Then, we the bullpen threw up zeros in the 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th, the offense went silent. Kyle Lohse pitches a gem, and we lose. That's a game that "special" teams win.

We've now followed the most dramatic/important win of the season with two defeats-- the second of which coming in a most painful manner.

I've simply come to accept that the Reds are what they are this year; so-so.

The reason I've been so positive lately is because "so-so" is a MAJOR improvement in my eyes. I am hopeful that we are headed in the right direction. Not convinced, but finally hopeful.

I am enjoying this right now. As long as the standings stay this way, each day will be exciting. But I'm not gonna lie-- this team doesn't make my hair stand up like the team in 1999 did--that was magic. That team could rattle off about 10 of those wins in a row. The 2002 Angels were "special."

The 2006 Reds are just average. We're basically incapable of winning a bunch in a row and I also think we're incapable of totally fading away. Which can certainly be a maddening combination.

I just don't see it folks. I think the Cards will slowly increase their lead and I think we will slowly fade in the WC standings as SOMEONE is bound to go on a big run (Houston?). When it's said I done, I see us right around 80-82 wins, probably 7-8 games out in the division and about 4-5 out in the WC. And some will scream and yell about how we "blew it." But it's hard to blow something you never really had. And I simply don't think the Reds have "it" this year.

But......I........hope.......I'm........wrong :)

Wheelhouse
08-12-2006, 02:34 AM
The Reds tend to coast in games at certain points, and it burns them. They tend to be very subject to whether they are tired, in an "up" mood, excited--they play the game as the spirit moves them--and they are prone to terrible slumps because of it. In short, and I know people hate this phrase, but as a team, the Reds "don't know how to win." There isn't that machine-like (no reference) ability that top teams have to consistently grind out 4, 5, and 6 game winning streaks, and the ability to avoid losing series.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2006, 02:34 AM
I'm right with you. Ed.

As many times as we come close to breaking out, we do dumb things to bring us down to earth--the mark of a mediocre team. If it's not the pitching, it's the offense and visa versa. If it's not either, it's game management.

As much as Krivsky is trying and Bob C is egging him on, all moves come to the same result--we gain a game then lose a game. It's better than last year, bu,t maybe we haven't seen the whole picture.

Since June 3rd, when the Reds were 31-24 and looking to get better, this team has been 28-33, even with the new bullpen. Amid the false high of a 31-24 record came an unusual mid-season contract extension for Jerry Narron. Narron hasn't been the same since. He's made blunder after blunder in management, but the team has come through with some big wins. Most notable is that the team we are chasing, St. Louis, has been 28-31. It was a chance to take over this division and we blew it. Now, we are fighting for a wild card berth and blowing games we should win.

Tonight's overuse of a pitching staff that can't afford overuse coupled with the horrible slumps that Dunn and Griffey are in (I include both because it seems that it's OK for Dunn to slump while Griffey is just worthless and over the hill), seems to start the begining of a slide to third place.

Yes, I hope I'm wrong too and I'll eat all the crow you want as long as you supply the barbeque sauce, but it seems that this is the way it will come down.

Ah, the frustration of a Reds fan. Bad moves in the front office and bad moves in field management. We should expect it by now. Oh, just to get that one hit and not make that one error. Oh, to win. Someday. Maybe.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 02:37 AM
Wayne Krivsky made a bunch of moves that involved shipping out important trading chips in the hopes of improving the bullpen. He failed horribly. There is absolutely no equivocation in this matter. That's what happened. He failed.

We can talk about next year, young arms, and all that happy crap, but he failed to improve this ballclub for the stretch drive. Fait accompli.

Kc61
08-12-2006, 02:42 AM
The Reds offense is above average, but only slightly so. The team is about sixth in the NL in runs scored. The 6th through 8th hitters in the lineup scare nobody.

The pitching is below average. The defense is below average. They have a lot of older players, not much speed.

On balance, the team is about average. They are in the hunt since the NL is weak. They are better than last year.

Hopefully, in the off-season, the Reds will become a good team and, over time, an excellent one.

reds44
08-12-2006, 02:47 AM
Wayne Krivsky made a bunch of moves that involved shipping out important trading chips in the hopes of improving the bullpen. He failed horribly. There is absolutely no equivocation in this matter. That's what happened. He failed.

We can talk about next year, young arms, and all that happy crap, but he failed to improve this ballclub for the stretch drive. Fait accompli.
It was 1 move.

If this team has Eddie, Loshe, Cormier, and Franklin to go along with Kearns and Lopez this team would win the NL Central.

A bullpen of

Guardado
Coffey
Weathers
Cormier
Franklin
Belisle
Shackelford

would do just fine. Heck I wouldn't have minded traded Kearns for a reliever so you could pump out a lineup of

Freel
Hatteberg
Dunn
Edwin
Griffey
Lopez
Phillips
Ross


The Nationals trade is what blew up our chances.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 02:51 AM
It was 1 move.

If this team has Eddie, Loshe, Cormier, and Franklin to go along with Kearns and Lopez this team would win the NL Central.

A bullpen of

Guardado
Coffey
Weathers
Cormier
Franklin
Belisle
Shackelford

would do just fine. Heck I wouldn't have minded traded Kearns for a reliever so you could pump out a lineup of

Freel
Hatteberg
Dunn
Edwin
Griffey
Lopez
Phillips
Ross


The Nationals trade is what blew up our chances.

Your prospective bullpen is still a bad bullpen. Maybe not Maj and Bray bad, but still bad.

I consider improvements to be substantive improvements, not what you have listed above. There's still not a killer in that whole bunch. Heck, just one is all I ask.

Which is why, of course, Homer Bailey should be up yesterday.

REDREAD
08-12-2006, 02:59 AM
Wayne Krivsky made a bunch of moves that involved shipping out important trading chips in the hopes of improving the bullpen. He failed horribly. There is absolutely no equivocation in this matter. That's what happened. He failed.

We can talk about next year, young arms, and all that happy crap, but he failed to improve this ballclub for the stretch drive. Fait accompli.

That's a pretty fair assessment. Even if one says that Wayne made only one bad move, it was a back breaker. Wayne won some $5-20 bets but lost the $200 bet.

This season has been fun, and I'm glad Cast is trying to go for it. But unless we reel in some FAs this offseason, I have a feeling the future is bleaker than it is brighter.

oregonred
08-12-2006, 03:48 AM
Edskin -- excellent post. That sums it up pretty well...

KronoRed
08-12-2006, 03:53 AM
This......is.....my.....best......way......to..... ..describe.....how.....it......feels....to......wa tch.....the......Reds.....this.....year.
-
But......I........hope.......I'm........wrong :)
Mr.Shatner?!?!?!


;)

oregonred
08-12-2006, 04:00 AM
This season has been fun, and I'm glad Cast is trying to go for it. But unless we reel in some FAs this offseason, I have a feeling the future is bleaker than it is brighter.

We've got ownership that wants to win badly and is bringing back the core fanbase for the first time in 25 years. We've got a GM who isn't afraid to make moves and to change the losing culture permeating the organization.

We've FINALLY got a local TV contract that should provide the kind of revenue stream the franchise deserves to move into mid market payroll range to better compete. (Much Better TV Contract + Higher Attendance = more wins guaranteed over the next few years)

And at minimum we've finally got a possibility of a pretty nice rotation core by midseason in Harang + Arroyo + Bailey

Position wise you've got Dunn + EE + BP + Freel to build around next season.

The pen will without question be much beter next season with Coffey + Bray + Maj + Cormier as the base to build from in the offseason.

Hard work remains in the offseason, but I'm more optimistic on where the franchise stands then I've been at anytime since the 1990 Championship (and that was with ownership that put the dys in dysfunction)

REDREAD
08-12-2006, 05:43 AM
I agree with you oregonRed that the new ownership is a breath of fresh air.

I just think we're going to go through a pain period before the team legitimately gets better. There's not a whole lot left to trade. Not much in the minors either.

I should've said that short term is a bit bleaker. Wayne did an admirable job getting some of the stop gaps that he did (Hatteberg, Guarado, etc).

GAC
08-12-2006, 07:19 AM
The.....Reds....just.....can't....do...it...can... they?

Yet how many games this year have we seen them come back and pull out a win?.... and against some darn good teams too. ;)

You're not gonna win them all.


I just don't see it folks. I think the Cards will slowly increase their lead and I think we will slowly fade in the WC standings as SOMEONE is bound to go on a big run (Houston?).

Who beat the Cards last night? ;)

The fact is Ed.... this is probably the weakest division in all MLB right now. It's anybody's ballgame. Big series versus the Cards next week. We are 8-4 overall vs the Cards this year, so yes, it can be done IMO.

Usually by this time of year we're all paying more attention to NFL pre-season anyway because the Reds are out of it.

Hang tough folks and try to get some enjoyment out of this. Quit hanging on every loss like it's the season or the game that causes us to "go over the falls".

And those teams in the WC hunt are no better then we are IMO. It's gonna be tight till the end.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 09:07 AM
Wayne Krivsky made a bunch of moves that involved shipping out important trading chips in the hopes of improving the bullpen. He failed horribly. There is absolutely no equivocation in this matter. That's what happened. He failed.

We can talk about next year, young arms, and all that happy crap, but he failed to improve this ballclub for the stretch drive. Fait accompli.

Yet many, many people were perfectly happy to have done nothing till the offseason to cash in on the possible higher trade value of AK and Lopez. People would have been happy to do nothing and not improve in that regard. I don't see the difference.


Which is why, of course, Homer Bailey should be up yesterday.

Yea, so he can get shelled by throwing a lot of fastballs. Then we can listen to people moan and grown about Kriv being "rash" and "moving to fast" and "panicking" and "pulling the trigger too soon" and ruining his carear.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 09:15 AM
I just think we're going to go through a pain period before the team legitimately gets better. There's not a whole lot left to trade. Not much in the minors either.

Going though a pain period...totally agree with this summation. I'm suprised at the angst when this is a medicore team at best and we've got to un-ravel the damage done to the orginization since the late 1980's. That doesn't get changed around overnight. I'm NOT giving BC and The Kriv a blanket-pass to say everything they have done is perfect, but I'm more confident in this group getting us somewhere since any other group since the late 1960's.

We've been the benificaries of a weak league and banner years from some players. It's very enjoyable to watch and it's nice to actually have hope again that due to a serries of events we might be in this thing in the end. More importantly, it's nice to actually have hope that each year will actually be stronger than the previous year.

Krusty
08-12-2006, 11:07 AM
I just wish people would get over the Washington trade. Sure the trade looks bad now but come 2007 will the trade look good if Majeski and Bray rebound from having tired arms? Everyone talks about Kearns and Lopez but I haven't seen a sudden surge in their production since they were traded to the Nationals.

If the team gets in the playoffs, that is great. Even finishing above .500 exceeded everyone's expectations for the team this season. Wayne Krivsky has admit he is pleased with the way the season has gone but he even said there is much more work to be done. I think he knows he is at least one or maybe two seasons away from putting his finishing touches on a team that will be a serious contender.

One just has to look north at Cleveland and see how a successful 2005 season was followed up with a dud 2006 season.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 11:12 AM
I just wish people would get over the Washington trade. Sure the trade looks bad now but come 2007 will the trade look good if Majeski and Bray rebound from having tired arms? Everyone talks about Kearns and Lopez but I haven't seen a sudden surge in their production since they were traded to the Nationals.

If the team gets in the playoffs, that is great. Even finishing above .500 exceeded everyone's expectations for the team this season. Wayne Krivsky has admit he is pleased with the way the season has gone but he even said there is much more work to be done. I think he knows he is at least one or maybe two seasons away from putting his finishing touches on a team that will be a serious contender.

One just has to look north at Cleveland and see how a successful 2005 season was followed up with a dud 2006 season.

Wayne did not make that trade with Washington so the Reds could end up a .500 team and miss the playoffs.

Krusty
08-12-2006, 11:21 AM
Wayne did not make that trade with Washington so the Reds could end up a .500 team and miss the playoffs.

True, but he didn't make the trade just for this season either.

Edskin
08-12-2006, 11:23 AM
Wayne Krivsky made a bunch of moves that involved shipping out important trading chips in the hopes of improving the bullpen. He failed horribly. There is absolutely no equivocation in this matter. That's what happened. He failed.


FCB-- I totally disagree, but we've been down this road before and I'm not going to contribute to another thread hijacking.

IMO, the Reds were never "close" this year. We're not going to "blow it" if we miss the post-season. Blowing it is when a team that SHOULD do something fails to do it. This is an average baseball team and pretty much has been since day one.

Don't forget we were ONE game over .500 BEFORE the Washington trade.

Edskin
08-12-2006, 11:25 AM
And to declare "why" Wayne made the trade at this point is conjecture. I'm willing to wait and see. If Bray and Maj contribute next year and we improve from Royce at SS, then perhaps this trade/plan will make a whole lot more sense. I was in total favor of Wayne "blowing it up"-- and I'm more than willing to give him some time to complete the job.

membengal
08-12-2006, 11:28 AM
They simply are not good enough, something pretty much every clear-eyed fan in these parts thought from the beginnings of camp. No biggie, other than it hurts to be right.

The Kearns/Lopez deal will always be an abomination to me, but WK's other moves have balanced them, mostly. It will be interesting to see what they do this off-season. If WK really wants to affect change on this club, he has to find a way to move Jr. either off the roster or out of CF. That should be job one.

Crosley68
08-12-2006, 11:36 AM
This is an average team. An improvement, but still average. If average is good enough to make the playoffs, then I will be happy but a bit embarrased at the weakness of the NL.

GAC
08-12-2006, 11:56 AM
They simply are not good enough, something pretty much every clear-eyed fan in these parts thought from the beginnings of camp. No biggie, other than it hurts to be right.

Oh please!.... this "hurts to be right" crap really makes me laugh. And every "clear-eyed" fan also said in the pre-season we'd finish in last place this year. So that shows me how "cross eyed" they really are. ;)

Looking at the NL Central, and especially at the teams vying for a post-season spot in the NL, this team is far from being out of it.

I've never in my life seen a forum so bi-polar! :lol:

RANDY IN INDY
08-12-2006, 11:58 AM
Oh please!.... this "hurts to be right" crap really makes me laugh. And every "clear-eyed" fan also said in the pre-season we'd finish in last place this year. So that shows me how "cross eyed" they really are. ;)

Looking at the NL Central, and especially at the teams vying for a post-season spot in the NL, this team is far from being out of it.

I've never in my life seen a forum so bi-polar! :lol:

:laugh: :beerme:

membengal
08-12-2006, 12:05 PM
Wow, GAC, you sure have me pegged. I am on record for 81-81 ( I think), does that make me a wild optimist? Or hazy-eyed? What exactly did EVERY poster on here predict, did we all agree on one record? I must have missed that memo.

The simple fact is that if the National League were not so execrably bad, we all might even be enjoying this team being average. As it is, because of how awful things are in the NL, it has given many hope to sneak into the playoffs with a pretty damn mediocre team. As it is, the medicority of the league raises hopes, and also provides more chances for lows than we would otherwise have. But the team is what it is, and it isn't very good. That's not real surprising to me, in fact, it's pretty dead on. You are mistaking people continuing to be realists about how mediocre this team is with not caring, or being "pessimists". Again, if the NL were not so gawdawful, this wouldn't be an issue. But, please, stop trying to prove how wonderful you are as a fan in threads like this, it gets old.

What's your point exactly, GAC? Why do you insist on trying to brush me or others into a corner based on your perception of the board as a whole? Or do you REALLY think this 59-57 team is somehow special or good? Because your dismissive tone gets pretty goddamn tiring, as you play pollyanna-I-am-a-true-fan-because-I-always-look-on-the-bright-side. It really does.

westofyou
08-12-2006, 12:21 PM
Redszone reminds me of the movie The Seven Samuri, the villagers were getting plundered year after year after year... so they hired the Samuri, they changed everything in the villagers lives and turned it upside down, they also made the villagers give up their rice for millet so that the Samuri could eat, and possibly compete.

Of course the villagers cried and moaned about it.... maybe having rice briefly was prefered, but starving would have been worse.

From 6-9-7-9 the Reds were 9-20, the nine games they won were against the Braves, Indians, Brewers, Royals and Mets. The run diffrential in those games was 127-172.

In the past 27 games the Reds are 14-13 and have a run differential of 122-140.

Millet can help you survive the Reds are now eating Millet when before they were getting plundered.... I'll take the millet for this year.

membengal
08-12-2006, 12:28 PM
And woy's take is quite nice, actually. There HAVE been positive steps this year, no question. To be where they are is nice. But make no mistake, this isn't a 95 win team with legitimate hopes at a World Series. But to be in the Wild Card conversation in August? Well, that's practically heaven.

It's just that I still don't think they are good enough to actually get there. perhaps GAC and others do. But no amount of yelling at me or lecturing me for feeling like they are not good enough will change my mind about that. Doesn't mean I am not pleased to be at this spot, though. I think people sometimes mistake those two positions...

GAC
08-12-2006, 12:33 PM
Wow, GAC, you sure have me pegged. I am on record for 81-81, does that make me a wild optimist?

Maybe an optometrist, but never an optimist. ;)


The simple fact is that if the National League were not so execrably bad, we all might even be enjoying this team being average. As it is, because of how awful things are in the NL, it has given many hope to sneak into the playoffs with a pretty damn mediocre team.

Every other team in the NL is trying to play off of that same "misfortune" in the NL right now... and because of that mediocracy, it's an open field.

I'd rather be watching and rooting for the average team we're seeing now, with a shot at the post-season, then the team I've seen over the last several years who are out of it by the AS break. It doesn't mean I am content with it.

The object is to do whatever one can to make it to the post-season, and also not feel guilty because somehow we're mediocre and don't deserve to be there.


What's your point exactly, GAC? Why do you insist on trying to brush me or others into a corner based on your perception of the board as a whole?

You put yourself in that corner. I don't paint anyone. But you, and others, simply cannot bring yourselves to even acknowledge anything positive this team has done this year. Not saying you don't think there hasn't been; but you'll be hard pressed to express it on here. And that's not saying be content with it - or realizing that yes improvements need to be made - but simply try to enjoy where we are currently at THIS YEAR, and that we do have a shot (when one looks at the mediocracy of the NL).

And those of us who are rooting for this '06 team already realize their lack, weaknesses, and areas needing improvement. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit around wringing my hands and waiting for the bottom to fall out because of it. ;)

But instead you feel it is your duty to remind everyone that we're not very good and it will soon come to an end.

We get the picture already and know where you stand.


Or do you REALLY think this 59-57 team is somehow special or good?

Did I and others say it was special? Do you think that because we continue to root this team on and hold onto our hope that we think we have somehow reached "nirvana" with this '06 team?

It's simply the fact that yes Virginia it's mid-August, and regardless of how mediocre this team is (or the NL as a whole) we are still very much in it. And as far as '06 goes, many of us could care less if we back into the post-season.

It's simply the fact of being in that position and possibly getting the opportunity.


Because your dismissive tone gets pretty goddamn tiring, as you play pollyanna-I-am-a-true-fan-because-I-always-look-on-the-bright-side. It really does.

Dismissive? Nothing dismissive about it. Just simply disagreement.

Have never said the above about myself, nor labelled you or anyone else who disagrees with me as not being a true fan. That is your further disillusionment.

If you dont care for my responses, then don't read them and put me on IGNORE.

membengal
08-12-2006, 12:37 PM
GAC wrote: I have yet to see you, and several others, ever acknowledge this year whenever anything goes well for this team. Guys like you have always been there to tell us that the bottom is gonna fall out, and you "hurt to be right". Your over analysis and "straining at a gnat" over every minute detail is why guys like you (and others) cannot even enjoy what you have. Not being content with it - or realizing that yes improvements need to be made - but simply try to enjoy where we are currently at and that we do have a shot (when one looks at the mediocracy of the NL).

Wow. In 2000 posts, I have "not acknowledged" when something goes right with the team? Unreal. I see you are indeed painting me with a brush. Awesome.

And with that, I take my leave of this forum.

MWM
08-12-2006, 12:37 PM
woy, I just don't understand how you can attribute the improved record to any moves that have been made. You're one of the last people I would expect to imply causation simply because of records over that sample. Afterall, early in the year the team had stretches of 20-9 as opposed to 9-20. I'm all ears if you can help me understand how the moves made by Krivsky is the reason why there's been improvement. And I'm not sure there's really been substantive improvement or random playing better. you're talking out their worst stretch of the season. They were inevitably going to play better, even with the team they had. Heck, they had done it already.

Guardado, yes he legitimately improved the team. But Bray and Majewshi have been pretty bad. Bray looked decent for a while, but even while his ERA was down, he was allowing more than 1.5 baserunners an inning. With his last two outings that number is up to 1.95. Meanwhile, Weathers and Coffey have been better (was bound to happen because they were both pitching well below their capabilities. That happens to all pitchers) and Stanridge has been at least average. And the defense was not improved, IMO.

I'm not trying to be "snarky" here, it's a genuine question. And this is not indignation over "The Trade" either. I didn't like it at the time, but didn't think it was a bad as some olks here thought. And I certainly didn't forsee just how bad the players the Reds got would perform. I just can't understand how you can look at the perfomance of the pieces that came over from Washington and somehow think the club is improved because of it. I don't get it. And I know you're not one to say the bullpen ERA is a little better, so it must be the pieces we received. I'm not trying to complain here, but it appears to me that the big move made has not worked out. That by itself does not mean it wasn't a good idea. Sometimes even good moves wind up backfiring and vice versa. In short, this isn't an attempt to rehash the wisdom of the big trade. But simply looking at the three peies received and their collective performance, I'm at a loss as to how that has made the Reds better simply because they're 1 game over since and had a bad month right before.

Johnny Footstool
08-12-2006, 12:49 PM
True, but he didn't make the trade just for this season either.

No, but competing this season was an important goal of the trade. He said so himself in his press conference.

GAC
08-12-2006, 12:57 PM
GAC wrote: I have yet to see you, and several others, ever acknowledge this year whenever anything goes well for this team. Guys like you have always been there to tell us that the bottom is gonna fall out, and you "hurt to be right". Your over analysis and "straining at a gnat" over every minute detail is why guys like you (and others) cannot even enjoy what you have. Not being content with it - or realizing that yes improvements need to be made - but simply try to enjoy where we are currently at and that we do have a shot (when one looks at the mediocracy of the NL).

Wow. In 2000 posts, I have "not acknowledged" when something goes right with the team? Unreal. I see you are indeed painting me with a brush. Awesome.

And with that, I take my leave of this forum.

Why do you get so worked up and emotional when people disagree with you? It's a talk forum, and you take it so pesonnal!

I'm sorry you've decided to leave. Not my intent or anyone else's who disagrees with you.

westofyou
08-12-2006, 01:03 PM
woy, I just don't understand how you can attribute the improved record to any moves that have been made.

Currently I don't attribute them to anything more then changing the psyche of the team, whether it plays out over the remaining games or not.

While I love stats, and use them to evaluate most of what I study in the game I also believe in purges, bizarre franchise shifts and renegade behavior in the front office. Especially if the franchise is afloat in a pile of sewage and its brand is sour in its own market.

I totally believed that this team was not a good team in April, they played great and then a mediocre 28-38 up to the AS game from May 1st on. They now have more reliable pitching from 6-12, that's a fact. Will it matter at the cost of offense and potential trading chips?

Who knows?

That will play out

I also am begining to recognize that I have no idea what really will happen and at this point I don't really get a payoff if the Reds are good or bad, the process is something that I find just fun to watch, evidently more then most.

However all this moving and shaking and he's dumb, no he's not, they stink, no they don't stuff is getting old, the trade has occured, it's not going to revers and reliving every failure of the new guys is going to drag the board down during the rest of the season from what I can see.

Like I said in the trade thread, if the Reds tank the second half the trade will get blamed, despite the poor construction of the team that played the 66 games from May 1st to the All Star game and that's kinda sad, because it ignores how bad a team WE all thought they were in April, and what strange and different team they are now.

smith288
08-12-2006, 01:19 PM
Taking his ball and going home!

MWM
08-12-2006, 01:21 PM
I see what you're saying. I'm just not sure the moves made accomplished the change in psyche or a bizarre franchise shift. I totally agree with you that the team was poorly constructed from teh beginning. I think it still is poorly constructed though with different names on the back of the uniform. And I also agree with the incessant complaining. The problem is it's been so loud and so pervasive on the board, that it makes it impossible to intelligently discuss the impact it's had on the team to date, which I think is a legitimate topic for fans to discuss. It's such a polarizing event that any time it's brought up, a lot of people seem to go straight to their corner and come out swinging. It's too bad.

KittyDuran
08-12-2006, 01:25 PM
GAC wrote: I have yet to see you, and several others, ever acknowledge this year whenever anything goes well for this team. Guys like you have always been there to tell us that the bottom is gonna fall out, and you "hurt to be right". Your over analysis and "straining at a gnat" over every minute detail is why guys like you (and others) cannot even enjoy what you have. Not being content with it - or realizing that yes improvements need to be made - but simply try to enjoy where we are currently at and that we do have a shot (when one looks at the mediocracy of the NL).

Wow. In 2000 posts, I have "not acknowledged" when something goes right with the team? Unreal. I see you are indeed painting me with a brush. Awesome.

And with that, I take my leave of this forum.Did GAC actually write all of that? "straining at a gnat"? [I guess I can't find it on this thread...:redface:]

37red
08-12-2006, 01:36 PM
It's difficult to read a thread like this from beginning to end just catching up on what's being talked about. You end up bouncing from one good post to another much like it's been following the Reds this year. Lots of good posts up and down back and forth.... I like a lot of them. We did all start out expecting a mediocre team, we got one. Then the league has been much more mediocre than any of us expected so we've come close to a play off spot. Now we have a whole lot of unexpected excitement and our emotions are going up and down like high school teens with high hopes and then let downs. It's a roller coaster that may be a challenge all the way to the wild card between the Central and West division, both of which are full of mediocre teams.

The Reds have holes like any 500 team that I think are mostly in defense and pitching, not to mention offense. But like everyone else I'm along for the ride and I'm tall enough to get on the coaster.....

GAC
08-12-2006, 01:43 PM
. I also am begining to recognize that I have no idea what really will happen and at this point I don't really get a payoff if the Reds are good or bad, the process is something that I find just fun to watch, evidently more then most.

Same here woy.

SteelSD
08-12-2006, 01:46 PM
woy, I just don't understand how you can attribute the improved record to any moves that have been made. You're one of the last people I would expect to imply causation simply because of records over that sample. Afterall, early in the year the team had stretches of 20-9 as opposed to 9-20.

The 9-20 stretch came on the heels of an 8-game winning streak.

In June, the Reds finished with a 15-12 record, scored 140 Runs and allowed 135. The primary contributor to the arbitrary 29-game period woy cites was actually the 1-8 beginning to July (50 RS/57 RA). Yet, that stretch was simply the inverse of how they started in June. Remove that stretch from the 29-game sample and you've got a record of 8-12 (84 RS/111 RA). And then July hit. Panic ensues.

And if we want to ignore winning streaks immediately preceding losing periods, we can exclude the Reds four game sweep of the Rockies. Since then they've played 10-13 baseball with a 99 RS/127 RA differential. Not surprisingly, that smells a lot like the 8-12 finish to June. And I'd suggest that if an 8-12 finish to June dramatically contributed to panic mode, the front office should have good reason to panic after a 10-13 stretch.

But then, there's no real reason to exclude the Rockies sweep because it really happened- as did the hot start to June, as did the entire rest of the season which involves both hot and cold streaks. Such is life for a mediocre team that still doesn't have the pieces it required to stop being a mediocre team. Now it's just a different version of mediocrity.

membengal
08-12-2006, 01:49 PM
Why must expressions of doubt be accompanied by disclaimers? If it wasn't enjoyable to watch, I don't think most any fan would do so. I clearly love this team, always have. Because I don't think they are making the playoffs, am I somehow NOT enjoying watching them play? Why is that the leap that so many make? I see the same accusation levied at others as well, and I don't understand it.

If necessary, I guess I can register as a new user, and every post, GO REDS!. Would that be better? Some instruction from those who apparently know me so well might be in order.

My opinion is, this team will not make the playoffs. I hope I am wrong. I am rooting that I am wrong. Is there something inherently wrong with having that opinion? Mind you, I didn't start this thread, simply weighed in.

Everyone is, of course, GAC, entitled to their opinion. If you took issue with mine with a reference to facts, that would be one thing. But you lecture, with back-handed references to the "board as a whole". That DOES rankle. But it is what it is.

GO REDS!

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 01:53 PM
I think it's high time to keep score of all the predictions. Actually, scratch that. We already have. Follow all the predictions and pooh-poohing of the "optimists" over the last six seasons and see how often they were right about how "good this team is going to be" or "how badly the 'naysayers' are overreacting" to the situation, how often the "optimists'" arguments shift over the course of the season to re-establish different standards of "success" (in April it's always, "this is a 90 win team"; in June it's always, "well, .500 is an accomplishment compared to last year"; in September it's always "did you watch the Bengals' game?"). Meanwhile those who do see the team for what they are (and let's face it, folks, the cast of characters who can see this team for what they are is almost completely unchanging, year after year) are castigated, personally attacked, and generally have their arguments thrown out the window despite their consistent iteration and fulfillment.

This board is fun to me, particularly game threads. I don't want to leave, but I think it's only fair and decent to have a reckoning now and again of whose arguments/predictions hold water and whose do not. Not for an I told you so session, but hopefully as a key to understanding what some see and what others simply fail to see or deny outright.

I know that educating myself on the intricacies and nuances of this game from threads on this board has greatly enhanced my enjoyment of Reds' baseball even though many of these educational threads have forced me to approach optimism more and more warily. So yeah, I might, from studying the stats, now give up on the team sooner than I might have at a less enlightened time in my baseball-following life, but I don't want to crawl back into the cave of blissful ignorance. That's just not me. And I think it's brutally unfair to expect people to turn away from what the stats are telling them.

MaineRed
08-12-2006, 02:06 PM
If all you see is doom, why do you watch?

What is the point if you just know you are going to be right? Why waste the time and then waste more time on this board? You really enjoy it?

I think is the basis for it. A lot of people, myself included don't understand how anyone could be such a sour puss, all the time, regardless of what you have been right about in the past.

Especially when you don't share your opinions but rather play them off as fact and shove them down people's throats.

This whole thing about Wayne blowing it with the Kearns-Lopez trade has gotten completely out of hand. That has not been proven. The Reds are not much different now then they were before. They are still right in it. The trade did not cost the Reds their chance. The odds of them getting in are just as good now as they were when that trade was made. But yet it is fact on this board that the trade stunk and doomed the Reds.

The only problem is, there is NO evidence of that. NONE.

The Reds were average before and they are average now. But an average team is going to get in. Probably 2 or 3 average teams.

I don't care about the fact that the Reds weren't able to get in last year or the year before. So all the sour pusses were correct. Congrats. Here is your medal, you earned it. FCB and his band are the ones to listen to and the only ones with credibility. Everyone got that.

Its 2006 and 2006 has presented the Reds with a chance to sneak in. I'm going to hang around and see how they do. If they don't make it, we can have another party for FCB to tell him what a genius he is.

Your all invited.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 02:15 PM
Its 2006 and 2006 has presented the Reds with a chance to sneak in. I'm going to hang around and see how they do. If they don't make it, we can have another party for FCB to tell him what a genius he is.

Your all invited.

Not even approaching the fact that this is a personal attack, I'll try to answer the charge.

I predicted an 81-81 season. That's looking to be about right. Does that make me a genius? Nope. A doomsayer? Nope.

What it does make me is an informed fan--someone who has learned an absolute ton from this board and its many members. I can say, without equivocation, that if it weren't for the many brilliant minds on this board my above prediction wouldn't be even near close. But because of them, I approach the game with the equanimity and even-handedness of a stat-based approach combined with years of observation revealing the waves of flux marking great offensive/great pitching eras, and an arsenal of logic that is honed with regularity on this site. I'm incredibly thankful for this site; not only for the education and camaraderie, but also the commiseration of fans who share in the disappointment of following a wonderful but very frustrating franchise.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 02:28 PM
Meanwhile those who do see the team for what they are (and let's face it, folks, the cast of characters who can see this team for what they are is almost completely unchanging, year after year) are castigated, personally attacked, and generally have their arguments thrown out the window despite their consistent iteration and fulfillment.

Well FCB, I think that accuasation can be made equally both ways.

Those who don't cry doom and gloom at every mistake are refered to as "sunshine pushers", "polyanna" and "pie-in-the-sky". I don't see how that falls in the normal bounds of discourse. Because some of us don't have emotional outbursts at every mistake, error and blown game we are cast asside as "applogists" and "kool-aide" drinkers. So I don't think I agree with your premise that those who see the team "for what it is" are the poor downtroden victoms always ganged up on by the evil "optimists".

In fact, your assumption that those who are enjoying the reds being in the hunt somehow don't see the team "for what it is" is pretty arrogent, IMO. (your comment about..."Meanwhile those who do see the team for what they are") It is possible to enjoy the season and still clearly see all the weaknesses. Those two are not mutually exclusive.

Of course those who might fall in the "optimists" camp are not pure and innocent either. Too often those who critisize the team are called out as "not being true fans". Not the case at all. It is possible to see the problems and still enjoy the moderate success we are having this year.

But you have to admit there is a lot of emotional outbursts on the board after a bad game, blown save, or mistake of any kind. Constructive critisim is one thing...just going down the "this team is horrible, nothing ever changes, Narron is an idiot and Krivsky lears at underaged girls" path gets old. Especially because after a bad situation there are almost always FAR more negative posts berating the mistakes then when something good happens. I think this is where people you might call "optimists" get tired of having to endure yet another "freak out sesson".

Before people claim I don't want discussion, nothing can be further from the truth. Constructive discussion and debate is what makes this board a cut above reds.com or cininnatienquirer.com. Having 8 different threads of how Narron is a dolt after a loss, IMO doesn't really qualify as "constructive discussion". Just my opinion.

SteelSD
08-12-2006, 02:38 PM
If all you see is doom, why do you watch?

What is the point if you just know you are going to be right? Why waste the time and then waste more time on this board? You really enjoy it?

I think is the basis for it. A lot of people, myself included don't understand how anyone could be such a sour puss, all the time, regardless of what you have been right about in the past.

Especially when you don't share your opinions but rather play them off as fact and shove them down people's throats.

This whole thing about Wayne blowing it with the Kearns-Lopez trade has gotten completely out of hand. That has not been proven. The Reds are not much different now then they were before. They are still right in it. The trade did not cost the Reds their chance. The odds of them getting in are just as good now as they were when that trade was made. But yet it is fact on this board that the trade stunk and doomed the Reds.

The only problem is, there is NO evidence of that. NONE.

The Reds were average before and they are average now. But an average team is going to get in. Probably 2 or 3 average teams.

I don't care about the fact that the Reds weren't able to get in last year or the year before. So all the sour pusses were correct. Congrats. Here is your medal, you earned it. FCB and his band are the ones to listen to and the only ones with credibility. Everyone got that.

Its 2006 and 2006 has presented the Reds with a chance to sneak in. I'm going to hang around and see how they do. If they don't make it, we can have another party for FCB to tell him what a genius he is.

Your all invited.

Now I'm not a mod, but considering your history of personally attacking FCB (among others), if I were a mod I might allow him more than a little leeway in responding.

FCB's take(s) may not be to your liking, but his contribution to Redszone is both welcome and necessary. Differing points of view must exist for a community to thrive. There's a freakin' actual discussion going on in this thread and I do not appreciate the noise created by your ongoing efforts to attack people rather than debate positions. Get with the program and discuss the topics and your contribution will be appreciated even if folks disagree with you.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 02:48 PM
Well FCB, I think that accuasation can be made equally both ways.

Those who don't cry doom and gloom at every mistake are refered to as "sunshine pushers", "polyanna" and "pie-in-the-sky". I don't see how that falls in the normal bounds of discourse. Because some of us don't have emotional outbursts at every mistake, error and blown game we are cast asside as "applogists" and "kool-aide" drinkers. So I don't think I agree with your premise that those who see the team "for what it is" are the poor downtroden victoms always ganged up on by the evil "optimists".

In fact, your assumption that those who are enjoying the reds being in the hunt somehow don't see the team "for what it is" is pretty arrogent, IMO. (your comment about..."Meanwhile those who do see the team for what they are") It is possible to enjoy the season and still clearly see all the weaknesses. Those two are not mutually exclusive.

Of course those who might fall in the "optimists" camp are not pure and innocent either. Too often those who critisize the team are called out as "not being true fans". Not the case at all. It is possible to see the problems and still enjoy the moderate success we are having this year.

But you have to admit there is a lot of emotional outbursts on the board after a bad game, blown save, or mistake of any kind. Constructive critisim is one thing...just going down the "this team is horrible, nothing ever changes, Narron is an idiot and Krivsky lears at underaged girls" path gets old. Especially because after a bad situation there are almost always FAR more negative posts berating the mistakes then when something good happens. I think this is where people you might call "optimists" get tired of having to endure yet another "freak out sesson".

Before people claim I don't want discussion, nothing can be further from the truth. Constructive discussion and debate is what makes this board a cut above reds.com or cininnatienquirer.com. Having 8 different threads of how Narron is a dolt after a loss, IMO doesn't really qualify as "constructive discussion". Just my opinion.


I can count the number of times on one hand that a "naysayer" has shouted down an "optimist" for celebrating the success or accomplishments of the Reds, even unpopularly held celebrations.

Sure, some "naysayers" may point to where they think this person might be wrong in his/her optimism, but I've almost never seen optimism itself get shouted down on this board.

Ltlabner
08-12-2006, 02:54 PM
I can count the number of times on one hand that a "naysayer" has shouted down an "optimist" for celebrating the success or accomplishments of the Reds, even unpopularly held celebrations.

Sure, some "naysayers" may point to where they think this person might be wrong in his/her optimism, but I've almost never seen optimism itself get shouted down on this board.

Shouted down...probably not. I agree. Talked to condenscendingly, arrogently, dimissivley....absoutley. Happens all the time. Been told they aren't "in the know"...yep. It's happen in just this very thread. Been told they are "uninformed" yes. Mocked even...yep.

I'm not saying it doesn't go both ways. It does and it shouldn't. But I don't agree one bit that the "naysayers" (your word) are somehow unable to voice their opinion amoungst the sea of "evil optimisim" (my word). That somehow they are victems as your protrayed is laughable.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 02:57 PM
Shouted down...probably not. I agree. Talked to condenscendingly, arrogently, dimissivley....absoutley. Happens all the time. Been told they aren't "in the know"...yep. It's happen in just this very thread. Been told they are "uninformed" yes. Mocked even...yep.

I'm not saying it doesn't go both ways. It does and it shouldn't. But I don't agree one bit that the "naysayers" (your word) are somehow unable to voice their opinion amoungst the sea of "evil optimisim" (my word). That somehow they are victems as your protrayed is laughable.

I'm not saying the "naysayers" are censored or anything like that, but the "naysayers" are far more often the ones on the end of personal attacks, not attacks on the argument.

VR
08-12-2006, 03:45 PM
I don't think anyone is a pessimist that predicts this team will fall in it's playoff run, at all.

I do find people that proclaim ERIC MILTON IS A WORTHLESS IDIOT THAT NEEDS TO BE DFA'D after giving up a leadoff walk in a game, or "YEAH, YOU'D BETTER BE ENJOY THE FACT THAT BRANDON PHILLIPS IS STILL HITTING AROUND .300, CAUSE HE'LL EVENTUALLY FALL BACK TO EARTH AND THEN I CAN RUB IT IN ALL YOUR FACES" to be overly dramatic and downright annoying, especially when it's over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


Rubbing your correctness in anyone's face, beating a dead horse until it is reduced to dust or making senseless, baseless comments will get your posts criticized. Why be surprised about it?

37red
08-12-2006, 04:32 PM
GAC, LARKIN FAN, is enquirer.com or whatever it was still available?

NJReds
08-12-2006, 04:46 PM
The Reds are one mediocre team in a league full of mediocrity. They may or may not make it, but they are not significantly better or worse then about 10 teams in the NL.

I'm giving WK a full offseason before shipping him off to the Dan O'Brien Memorial Scrap Heap.

KronoRed
08-12-2006, 04:48 PM
GAC, LARKIN FAN, is enquirer.com or whatever it was still available?
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/messageboards/

Falls City Beer
08-12-2006, 05:45 PM
Rubbing your correctness in anyone's face, beating a dead horse until it is reduced to dust or making senseless, baseless comments will get your posts criticized. Why be surprised about it?

Those things probably should be criticized, but those kinds of comments are isolated almost entirely to game threads, and tend toward more "heat of the moment/kneejerk" responses. If you want to rail on people who have gut-level reactions in a game thread, have at it. It's your prerogative I guess.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2006, 05:48 PM
They CAN do it....

But they have to go out and actually do it....last night doesn't help that.

Edskin
08-12-2006, 06:37 PM
Nothing is more frustrating than watching another thread turn into an "optimists vs. pessimists" tirade again.........and again.

I really wish people would let that die once and for all. If you don't agree with FCB then give us the reasons--don't patronize or question his motivations for watching the team.

I disagree with a lot of posters on this board, and I too, have wondered TO MYSELF a few times if certain posters may not rather be "right" over everything else. But you know what? That's THEIR business. I simply assume that everyone here is a Reds/baseball fan and leave it at that.

It's maddening, it really is. Let.......it...........go

GAC
08-12-2006, 07:32 PM
Did GAC actually write all of that? "straining at a gnat"? [I guess I can't find it on this thread...:redface:]

Yes I did Kitty.... but IMMEDIATELY after I wrote it I posted and proof read it and decided to take that part out. My intention is not to pee him (or anyone else) off, try to drive them off the forum, or expect them to "get in line", simply via my disagreeing with their position.

But he continues to level accusations that myself (and others) are trying to suppress his thoughts, keep him from posting, when that is the furthest thing from the truth.

Just simply disagreeing with him, that's all. ;)

membengal
08-12-2006, 07:37 PM
Love the continued personal attacks, GAC, why don't you take it to PM?

If you were simply disagreeing, that would be one thing. The lecturing? The refusal to address each post and poster on their own, instead choosing to lump them in with whatever is in your head? Well, hey, that's your style, so have at it, dude.

GAC
08-12-2006, 08:04 PM
Why must expressions of doubt be accompanied by disclaimers?..... Everyone is, of course, GAC, entitled to their opinion.

And I have never said you, or anyone else, weren't entitled to their opinion.

Am I entitled to mine, even if it disagrees with yours? Obviously not if it upsets you.

Are you saying that people are not allowed to respond to you (and especially disagree) when you post? Because that is all I have ever done. Some of my responses to you may be "strong" in nature; but you cannot find anywhere where I have ever personally attacked you, tried to prevent you from posting, or told you to "get in line" with everyone else. No where.


If you took issue with mine with a reference to facts, that would be one thing.

Ah.... but at times I have when it was required. But some of the discussions (disagreements) you and I have had - such as Narron's handling of EE for example (why he is doing it, etc) is nothing more then your's (and mine's) subjective opinion (how we feel about it). That's not factual - that's an opinion. So if I, or anyone else, disagrees with that position, and posts it - why do you get so upset as if it's an attempt to censor or suppress you?

I'm not upset that you disagree with mine... or level the accusation that you're trying to shut me up and censor me.


But you lecture, with back-handed references to the "board as a whole". That DOES rankle. But it is what it is.

Would love to see a specific example of this, because I have never stated in generalities that I speak for the board as a whole. Never. Again, you see disagreement as lecturing. The only thing I have stated, and many, many others too, is that people are getting a little frustrated THIS YEAR at the constant repetition and harping of the same old issues day after day after day.

Is it not beating a subject matter to death?

We are simply trying to enjoy the moment and what we have, which hasn't came for quite awhile with this team. It's not simply "following the company line", or living in denial over this team's current problems, or that Krivsky is God. And some feel that it is their obligation to somehow "educate" these people and burst their bubble because of what they see as "pie in the sky" optimism not rooted in reality.

Fine. There's a bunch of us not rooted in reality. Let us enjoy ourselves. ;)

But no problem mem. I don't need to threaten to leave the forum because of how someone responds to my thoughts. I "read over" alot of the stuff on here.

And from now on I'll do it with your's. And respectfully, maybe you should do likewise. ;)

GO REDS

membengal
08-12-2006, 08:07 PM
You may have edited it out, but you first started this thread by picking my post to attack the board as bi-polar, and then went to the gnat thing. Whatever.

Wasn't trying to educate. My opinion is that we don't have enough to win this. You may apparently agree, it's unclear. What is clear is that you want to "enjoy this", and opinions such as mine interfere with that. The simple solution, for me anyway, is to now not offer my opinions, or conform them to yours so that your enjoyment will not be ruined. Done and done. I shall conform.

GAC
08-12-2006, 08:13 PM
You may have edited it out, but you first started this thread by picking my post to attack the board as bi-polar, and then went to the gnat thing.

So? You think I'm the first to say this board, as a whole, is bi-polar? :lol:


The simple solution, for me anyway, is to now not offer my opinions, or conform them to yours so that your enjoyment will not be ruined. Done and done. I shall conform.

Whatever trips your trigger.


Love the continued personal attacks, GAC, why don't you take it to PM?]

Please show me where I am making personal attacks?

You have a problem with me then gather your evidence and take it up with the mods.

membengal
08-12-2006, 08:25 PM
Hey, I am the one who has never said anything nice about the Reds, remember? Your words. Nothing personal in that.

Go Reds!

Edited to add: By the way, I would prefer to discuss this by PM, so as not to clutter up the board, but you have told you will not respond to a PM...

GAC
08-12-2006, 09:13 PM
And with that, I take my leave of this forum.

I've already told you that I'm not gonna argue or discuss this situation via PMs. I find it to be a waste of time. What is to be resolved?

Don't take it personally. So lets simply drop it, huh?

membengal
08-12-2006, 09:32 PM
Fine. Dropped.

Edskin
08-17-2006, 06:26 PM
Appropriate day for this thread to be bumped. Narron made some bad decisions late in this game, but the bottom line is that this team just doesn't have the "it" that average teams need to rise above. Just not there this year folks. They play hard, but they aren't special.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 06:32 PM
Appropriate day for this thread to be bumped. Narron made some bad decisions late in this game, but the bottom line is that this team just doesn't have the "it" that average teams need to rise above. Just not there this year folks. They play hard, but they aren't special.

Neither is any other team (aside from maybe the Mets) in the NL.

westofyou
08-17-2006, 06:33 PM
Redszone Official Mascot

http://www.tzanis.org/tzanisblog/archives/images/push-pull-thumb.jpg

Edskin
08-17-2006, 06:57 PM
WOY-- I've been saying the same thing all year long. I am enjoying this team, enjoying the season, and I do not loathe Narron as many others do. And I really like what Wayne is doing. I think this team is on a decent path AS LONG AS this off-season is a continuation of progress, not a stalemate.

I don't get real upset when we lose games like this because I don't view the Reds as an "on the cusp" team. I think that eventually someone in the WC race will get hot and we'll keep up the .500 play.

Edskin
08-17-2006, 06:59 PM
Matt- Believe me, if we are still on top of the WC come SEPTEMBER 18th, then I'll be fighting butterfiles on a daily basis. Then, we'll see "almost there." But something tells me it's going to dip and slide away before then.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2006, 07:46 PM
Redszone Official Mascot

http://www.tzanis.org/tzanisblog/archives/images/push-pull-thumb.jpg

Ain't that the truth.:laugh:

NJReds
08-17-2006, 09:24 PM
Appropriate day for this thread to be bumped. Narron made some bad decisions late in this game, but the bottom line is that this team just doesn't have the "it" that average teams need to rise above. Just not there this year folks. They play hard, but they aren't special.

So days like today they don't have "it"...but days like Ross' walk-off they do?

I think that this is a very average team in a very average league. They have just as much chance to grab a playoff spot as 2/3 of the National League.

oregonred
08-17-2006, 09:31 PM
On the bright side. Milton/Lohse/Arroyo all had nice starts in the last four days. Harang should come around.

No way to get a 5-6 game win streak or an 8-2 run going without getting the starting staff back to respectability.

Even KGJ seems to be coming around a bit. I'm cautiously optimistic, but the reality is the Reds should have tallied 2-3 mroe wins in the past 12-13 games (Braves, fri at Philly, maybe today).

Get Dunn + KGJ going + decent starting pitching. No reason we can't go on a run.