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jamess697
08-12-2006, 07:49 PM
How old does Griffey look? After the first two innings of tonights game he has looked like Ken Griffey Sr. with the Mariners. It is time to get him out of centerfield and out of the three hole. He is killing a potential pennant team!

BlfdVaFan
08-12-2006, 07:57 PM
You get bashed for saying negative things about Griffey and his apparent lack of effort. As I just posted, I think he needs glasses. If he was running instead of EZ the Reds would not have scored in the 2nd inning and the Phils would be up 4-0.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 08:06 PM
The problem is that you can't say his "apparent lack of effort". Bash him all you want for not producing but you or I don't know anything about his effort level, but again people who do know say he works as hard or harder than anyone.

BlfdVaFan
08-12-2006, 08:29 PM
The problem is that you can't say his "apparent lack of effort". Bash him all you want for not producing but you or I don't know anything about his effort level, but again people who do know say he works as hard or harder than anyone.

Are you saying I can't judge what I see with my eyes?

jesusfan
08-12-2006, 08:33 PM
Are you saying I can't judge what I see with my eyes?

That's what I see too... I'm with ya! I don't know what it is really... He just seems to be playing with absolutely no Confidence, that can't happen, WE ARE IN A PLAYOFF RACE !!!!

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 08:48 PM
Are you saying I can't judge what I see with my eyes?
Tell me what you see that tells you he is not trying. You said "apparent lack of effort", give me proof of him not trying. That's all I'm talking about, you can say whatever you want but it doesn't hold much weight unless you can back it up.

BlfdVaFan
08-12-2006, 09:11 PM
Tell me what you see that tells you he is not trying. You said "apparent lack of effort", give me proof of him not trying. That's all I'm talking about, you can say whatever you want but it doesn't hold much weight unless you can back it up.

Things this week......a ball hitting his glove and falling harmlessly to the ground giving up a double, pulling up on balls at least 5 times that could have been caught, jumping in the wrong place to bring a home run ball back in the park, failing to run out balls that he does not hit out of the park.
If you can't see these things then you are looking through Griffey colored glasses.
If you want to make excuses for him then by all means keep doing so. I say the proof is in the pudding. I see the pudding...you don't.

Chainer
08-12-2006, 09:14 PM
For those that don't know, Griffey is the ONLY player on the team aside from the young talent recently brought up, that attends EVERY SINGLE PRACTICE. That includes the mandatory and non-mandatory (that most like Dunn and others miss).

Lack of effort? How much effort do you think he's capable of putting out? No one bashes anyone here....but if you're just saying, 'Griffey gives no effort, because I say so and I see what he does,' then that's not enough given proof.

People criticize him for things, but if you actually look into the situations that he doesn't 'give effort' on, they could potentially give the other team more runs. This goes into the effect of him diving when there are numerous runners on....people criticize him all the time about it, that it's sickening!

dieselman44
08-12-2006, 09:16 PM
Griffey gives 100 percent effort all the time(except maybe weak grounders). But man he looks tired and old the last couple weeks. Id give him a day off tomorrow so he'll get 2 straight days off then I think he'll be rejuvenated for the cardinal series.

Chainer
08-12-2006, 09:18 PM
Things this week......a ball hitting his glove and falling harmlessly to the ground giving up a double, pulling up on balls at least 5 times that could have been caught, jumping in the wrong place to bring a home run ball back in the park, failing to run out balls that he does not hit out of the park.
If you can't see these things then you are looking through Griffey colored glasses.
If you want to make excuses for him then by all means keep doing so. I say the proof is in the pudding. I see the pudding...you don't.

No offense, but obviously you see the pudding too much!

Simple fact of the matter, is that you see Griffey running out ground balls...and all you see is him jogging. Almost all of Griffey's ground balls are routine, that Major League players make 99% of the time...so ask yourself this....risk yourself injury for that 1% of the time, or save the energy for the rest of the game. At age 36, if you haven't used steroids, the game gets harder to play, and some people need to realize that as well.

I'm not finding excuses, just stating the obvious that a lot of people can't seem to recognize.

lo ryder
08-12-2006, 09:19 PM
Ok, I think I will chime in here. I readily admit Jr. is not the player he once was, this is a natural phenomena unless you are on the juice. I am a couple of years older than Jr. and I guarantee I cant do some of the things I could 5 or 10 years ago. You are still talking of a future/potential HOF'er who was one of if not the best in his day.

I would have hated to hear what some of you may have said about the BRM in the latter years of thier careers.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 09:28 PM
Things this week......a ball hitting his glove and falling harmlessly to the ground giving up a double, pulling up on balls at least 5 times that could have been caught, jumping in the wrong place to bring a home run ball back in the park, failing to run out balls that he does not hit out of the park.
If you can't see these things then you are looking through Griffey colored glasses.
If you want to make excuses for him then by all means keep doing so. I say the proof is in the pudding. I see the pudding...you don't.
Oh my bad I didn't realize he dropped that ball on purpose last night. That's what you'd have to say to believe it was a lack of effort that caused him to miss that ball, he went a long way to get that ball, yes he has to catch it, obviously. I watched the replay several times just now of that home run in the first inning there is no way you can tell if that ball is out of his reach or not, and even if he did jump in the wrong place, you'd have to believe he did it on purpose to say he missed that because of a lack of effort. I have not seen him pull up on balls that he should have caught, I have no problem saying that Jr. needs to be moved to a corner outfield spot.

When you are hitting ground balls to the extreme right side you don't have much time to get down the line. In games I have been to this year he starts out of the box hard but he's not fast and doesn't get very far before he's out. Do you want him to run hard all the way to first even after he's out? I just think it looks worse than it is because he rarely grounds out to the left side.

I don't have Griffey colored glasses or any of the other stupid sayings you used. A player can be slumping but still trying hard, in fact if I had to guess I'd say part of the reason he's playing so bad is because he's pressing. He needs some time off. It's easy to rip Jr. right now and he deserves most of it, I'm just saying I don't think it's an "apparent lack of effort".

BlfdVaFan
08-12-2006, 10:04 PM
Oh my bad I didn't realize he dropped that ball on purpose last night. That's what you'd have to say to believe it was a lack of effort that caused him to miss that ball, he went a long way to get that ball, yes he has to catch it, obviously. I watched the replay several times just now of that home run in the first inning there is no way you can tell if that ball is out of his reach or not, and even if he did jump in the wrong place, you'd have to believe he did it on purpose to say he missed that because of a lack of effort. I have not seen him pull up on balls that he should have caught, I have no problem saying that Jr. needs to be moved to a corner outfield spot.

When you are hitting ground balls to the extreme right side you don't have much time to get down the line. In games I have been to this year he starts out of the box hard but he's not fast and doesn't get very far before he's out. Do you want him to run hard all the way to first even after he's out? I just think it looks worse than it is because he rarely grounds out to the left side.

I don't have Griffey colored glasses or any of the other stupid sayings you used. A player can be slumping but still trying hard, in fact if I had to guess I'd say part of the reason he's playing so bad is because he's pressing. He needs some time off. It's easy to rip Jr. right now and he deserves most of it, I'm just saying I don't think it's an "apparent lack of effort".
All he had to do was get a little lift on a ball to drive in the 8th inning go ahead run but what did he do? It's a good thing Eddie E could do what Jr couldn't. I want Jr to succeed as much as anyone. If he goes well then the Reds should go equally as well.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 10:11 PM
All he had to do was get a little lift on a ball to drive in the 8th inning go ahead run but what did he do? It's a good thing Eddie E could do what Jr couldn't. I want Jr to succeed as much as anyone. If he goes well then the Reds should go equally as well.
So that's all you could think of. He laced that ball, but yeah he we needed a fly ball. What's your point? Again I am not saying he's playing well, it's a given that's he's slumping big time, but I don't think he intentionally didn't hit the ball in the air. I'm talking about as you said the "apparent lack of effort".

Redhook
08-12-2006, 10:23 PM
Even though he didn't get the runner home in his last at-bat atleast he hit the ball hard for a change. I still think he'll finish strong this year.

On the flip side, was it just me, or should he have caught that ball in the bottom of the 9th tonight? I know he's slowed down alot, but he just didn't look right getting to that ball. I thought he should have/could have caught that ball.

Chainer
08-12-2006, 10:27 PM
Even though he didn't get the runner home in his last at-bat atleast he hit the ball hard for a change. I still think he'll finish strong this year.

On the flip side, was it just me, or should he have caught that ball in the bottom of the 9th tonight? I know he's slowed down alot, but he just didn't look right getting to that ball. I thought he should have/could have caught that ball.

Not, that was hit in the gap. Although it was a lazy line-drive, it still would've dropped for a LOT of centerfielders.

lawnboy33
08-12-2006, 10:29 PM
Yep he would have caught it if he ran instead of walked! Freel would have easily gotten it!

2001MUgrad
08-12-2006, 10:30 PM
At some point they need to consider moving him to one of the corner OF spots. Hatteberg is obviously the everyday 1B or I would say they should consider moving him there.

Chainer
08-12-2006, 10:33 PM
Yep he would have caught it if he ran instead of walked! Freel would have easily gotten it!

Walked? Did you even watch the game? He ran from straight away centerfield to the gap right outside of the warning track in left-center to cut it off.

Freel's a good player, but he's not Superman....he wouldn't have gotten it either.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 10:34 PM
Yep he would have caught it if he ran instead of walked! Freel would have easily gotten it!
Actually I don't even think he was paying attention. I heard Freel had to tell him that the ball was hit before he even moved. I think he was probably text messaging someone or something like that.

Chainer
08-12-2006, 10:35 PM
Actually I don't even think he was paying attention. I heard Freel had to tell him that the ball was hit before he even moved. I think he was probably text messaging someone or something like that.

Yeah, or eating some French Fries out of his back pocket! You know how them 'ol Griffey's like Mickey D's!!! ;)

Redhook
08-12-2006, 10:35 PM
Not, that was hit in the gap. Although it was a lazy line-drive, it still would've dropped for a LOT of centerfielders.

There's not a doubt in my mind that Freel would've caught it. It think Deno would've caught it too. In fact, I think most, if not all other center fielders catch that ball. He really needs to be moved to right and 5th in the batting order. Sad, but true. I still really like JR. and think he'll help us out the rest of the way.

Also (this paragraph is not directed towards you, Chainer), I have no problem with him strolling down first base on ground outs. I'd rather him do that than the screws in his legs falling out. I know he's not Bonds, but Bonds jogged/jogs down to first base alot too. These guys are old and are on weak legs. Hustling down to first on a ground isn't going to get them anywhere but on the D.L.

HumnHilghtFreel
08-12-2006, 10:37 PM
This is my take on Griffey. Since coming to the Reds 6 years ago, he has averaged 98 games a year. Tonights game was his 87th of the year. My guess is that he's just starting to get tired. His bat is getting slower and age isn't helping him any. I could be wrong and maybe he could just snap out of his funk, but I don't know anything at all about his conditioning, but he looks like a tired ballplayer to me.

Redhook
08-12-2006, 10:40 PM
This is my take on Griffey. Since coming to the Reds 6 years ago, he has averaged 98 games a year. Tonights game was his 87th of the year. My guess is that he's just starting to get tired. His bat is getting slower and age isn't helping him any. I could be wrong and maybe he could just snap out of his funk, but I don't know anything at all about his conditioning, but he looks like a tired ballplayer to me.

Agreed. He could use 3 days off. The only problem then is our depth in outfield. We used to have a gluttony of outfielders, now we're thin. Odd.

UC_Ken
08-12-2006, 10:41 PM
Griffey is the key to this season. If he plays like he did last season and the first half of 04 before he got hurt then we're going to the playoffs. If he continues to be a .240 singles hitter who doesn't walk then we're destined to finish a couple games below .500.

We also have to live with his poor defense. You can't ask him to move mid-season just like you didn't ask BP to move mid-season even though the team would be better off in the long run if Freel-Griffey switched and if BP went to SS with Aurillia taking over 2B.

runfreelrun
08-12-2006, 10:54 PM
Those were the words uttered by Chris Welsh after Junior struck out for the third time, followed by George Grande saying "His bat looks very slow". This coming from 2 guys who never criticize Griffey and are around him much more then any of us. Why not come up with some injury, put Junior on the DL and let him rest for 2 weeks. We know that Ken is prideful and won't take himself out of the lineup so it is up to Krivsky and Narron to convince him that some time off would help. I know that we are in the middle of the pennant race and about to go to St.Louis, but does anyone really think he is helping us win right now. I think we move Freel to center, leave Dunn in left and bring up Deno and let him and Hollandsworth platoon for a couple of weeks, I don't think this move hurts the team and in the long run it may help the team.

reds44
08-12-2006, 11:01 PM
He's not tired, he's old.

Jpup
08-12-2006, 11:02 PM
He's not tired, he's old.

both.

Razor Shines
08-12-2006, 11:03 PM
Another?

JTMONEY
08-12-2006, 11:10 PM
i thiknk if u move him around in the order grif will be just like he was earlier in the year and i dont think hes tired hes just frustrated with himself

Team Clark
08-13-2006, 12:13 AM
His bat speed is so poor right now I can't even make an excuse for him. He needs 2-3 days off and NO SWINGS. Strap him to the trainers table and give him a night night shot.

OldRed1966
08-13-2006, 12:24 AM
I would expect to see Freel get the start in CF tomorrow, with Hollandsworth getting his first start as a Red in RF>

Dunner44
08-13-2006, 12:33 AM
Jr. NEEDS a day off like I need air. Maybe 2 or 3 days off like TC said. can we invent a factitious injury so he can be day to day for a few days and avoid drawing ire from griffey diehards?

flynn78
08-13-2006, 12:34 AM
I have been saying that he looks tired for a while. We need to rest him more. About 2 out of 7 starts we let him have some time to rest here in the next 14 games. Hopefully that will make him refreshed for the stretch run and puts another big pinch-hit bat into play.

KronoRed
08-13-2006, 12:36 AM
Another?
Not a RZ night without it ;)

jnwohio
08-13-2006, 01:04 AM
To me the tell tale sign that should be setting off warning bells is Jr.'s defense in the last week and the last 2 games in particular.

All year he had been doing a reasonable job of covering his loss of range with his natural instincts; and most importantly, whatever he got close to he caught. Earlier this was true even when he was slumping offensively.

Now he is not even catching balls he is getting to. And not only is Freel increasingly covering a lot of the gap in right side, Dunn is even moving deeper and deeper into the gap on the left field side.

I'd also think the fact Jr. is in a rocking chair between two guys who are ripping the cover off the ball (Hatte & EE) and still isn't producing should be raising eyebrows with mgmnt.

He has to be tired and possibly hurt as well as being older.

TeamBoone
08-13-2006, 02:24 AM
You can't put a guy on the DL unless he's hurt. I don't think he is. I truly believe he'd take himself out of the game if he were injured rather than hurt this team.

I also think he's tired. When was the last time he was out of the lineup? I can't even remember.

He truly does need a few days off. They have an off day on Monday. If I were the manager (ha! fat chance), I would sit him tomorrow.

Ron Madden
08-13-2006, 03:14 AM
KGJ came off the DL 5/11/06.

Narron said at the time he would rest JR at least once a week.

Griffey has played 87 games this season, after missing almost a month on the DL wirh an injured knee.

Narron never stuck to the plan.

MrCinatit
08-13-2006, 03:20 AM
You can't put a guy on the DL unless he's hurt. I don't think he is. I truly believe he'd take himself out of the game if he were injured rather than hurt this team.

I also think he's tired. When was the last time he was out of the lineup? I can't even remember.

He truly does need a few days off. They have an off day on Monday. If I were the manager (ha! fat chance), I would sit him tomorrow.

Exactly. He has been doing poorly recently, but I do not see Griffey as being one of those guys who can go out there and only give a fraction of what they can give.
The guy is tired. The guy is no spring chicken. He does need a bit of rest.

icehole3
08-13-2006, 06:51 AM
KGJ came off the DL 5/11/06.

Narron said at the time he would rest JR at least once a week.

Griffey has played 87 games this season, after missing almost a month on the DL wirh an injured knee.

Narron never stuck to the plan.


I agree Narron has allowed this to happen by not getting into the stubborn Jr's head and convincing him to back off his nutty routine of excesive BP in the blazing dog days of summer.

redsmetz
08-13-2006, 06:57 AM
His bat speed is so poor right now I can't even make an excuse for him. He needs 2-3 days off and NO SWINGS. Strap him to the trainers table and give him a night night shot.

You're the scout, but it's been clear to me that he needs some time off. For those who say "he's old", there are plenty of players who play older than this with success. But I think he needs a breather. I'm guessing he's resisting that notion though given his past history of injury; wanting to show he can play a full season. I'm hoping he gets a day off today, at the least.

forfreelin04
08-13-2006, 07:13 AM
I agree he does need a few days off. I know he wants to be out there everyday to prove to himself and baseball he can be an All Star player again but pride is not something that should not control him. Not knowing his limits is hurting this ballclub. Not to mention the fact Jerry doesnt seem to notice which is quite amazing considering "he played the game." Thus he should realize more then anyone when a player needs rest and is pressing. jerry needs to call on the ole cajones and treat Junior like any other player on this team.

bigdaddy
08-13-2006, 07:45 AM
Griffey and Dunn have not showed up in this series. Narron has rest both of them on Sunday. Send Richie or LaRue to the outfield.

Newman4
08-13-2006, 09:39 AM
I'd also think the fact Jr. is in a rocking chair between two guys who are ripping the cover off the ball (Hatte & EE) and still isn't producing should be raising eyebrows with mgmnt.

I really don't understand that either. Flip flop Dunn and Junior. Or move BP to second in the order behind Freel, let Mr. Hat go #3, EE #4, Dunn #5 and Jr. #6 :eek:

BlfdVaFan
08-13-2006, 09:40 AM
Griffey is the key to this season. If he plays like he did last season and the first half of 04 before he got hurt then we're going to the playoffs. If he continues to be a .240 singles hitter who doesn't walk then we're destined to finish a couple games below .500.

We also have to live with his poor defense. You can't ask him to move mid-season just like you didn't ask BP to move mid-season even though the team would be better off in the long run if Freel-Griffey switched and if BP went to SS with Aurillia taking over 2B.

Pete Rose moved to third base in the middle of a season....well, I think it was late May if my memory serves me correctly. The Reds took off and Foster flourished.

KySteveH
08-13-2006, 10:46 AM
I really don't understand that either. Flip flop Dunn and Junior. Or move BP to second in the order behind Freel, let Mr. Hat go #3, EE #4, Dunn #5 and Jr. #6 :eek:
For some reason, no matter how much this makes sense, it won't happen. While every other Red has batted in at least two different spots this year (Some 3, 4, or 5), Griffey's #3 has been more or less sacred. He apparently has an unwritten deal that he must bat there. Don't even get me started about him playing CF while Freel plays RF.

Highlifeman21
08-13-2006, 11:59 AM
He's not tired, he's old.


And he's horrible defensively. Let's not forget that fact.

Last night, should have had Delucci's shot. And I don't remember who hit the ball to center that looked like it bounced directly off Jr's chest as he slid, since his lack of range led to the slide attempt.

Blackhole in CF, blackhole in the 3 spot.

Chainer
08-13-2006, 03:49 PM
Not a RZ night without it ;)

Too many of them. ;)

TeamBoone
08-13-2006, 07:19 PM
Pete Rose moved to third base in the middle of a season....well, I think it was late May if my memory serves me correctly. The Reds took off and Foster flourished.

Pete was 100% healthy too.

Always Red
08-13-2006, 07:38 PM
Pete was 100% healthy too.
And Pete was willing to move to 3rd.

If Jr is not willing to move, it will only create clubhouse tension during the pennant race, which no one needs. That will totally sink this team, which is fragile enough.

I agree with the idea, but it needs to be done next year, not right now.:)

TeamBoone
08-13-2006, 08:17 PM
I agree he does need a few days off. I know he wants to be out there everyday to prove to himself and baseball he can be an All Star player again but pride is not something that should not control him. Not knowing his limits is hurting this ballclub. Not to mention the fact Jerry doesnt seem to notice which is quite amazing considering "he played the game." Thus he should realize more then anyone when a player needs rest and is pressing. jerry needs to call on the ole cajones and treat Junior like any other player on this team.

He got days off earlier in the season, and I don't ever remember reading that he gave JN a hard time about it so I highly doubt he'd do so now... when he really needs it.

The season is a grind, we're now in mid August, and as I said earlier, I can't remember the last time he had a day off.

If the Reds do make it to the post season, I'd think they'd want a rested Griffey. One day off a week will go far into making that happen.

Chainer
08-13-2006, 08:17 PM
Where's the Griffey bashing tonight after going 3 for 6?

Oddly enough....it seems to be lacking! :rolleyes:

TeamBoone
08-13-2006, 08:21 PM
Griffey and Dunn have not showed up in this series. Narron has rest both of them on Sunday. Send Richie or LaRue to the outfield.

At least Dunn has been hitting the ball with some authority, even when making an out. Even when he just gets a piece of it, it goes into the OF.

Prior to today, Griffey just doesn't seem to have any power. He appears to hit every ball to the second baseman... thank heaven that recently, no one has been on base when he's done it.

Did Sr help him out? Is he coming out of his slump? Or was today just a fluke. I don't know the answer, but I truly believe he needs some time off.

TeamBoone
08-13-2006, 08:43 PM
Where's the Griffey bashing tonight after going 3 for 6?

Oddly enough....it seems to be lacking! :rolleyes:

I've never bashed Griffey.

Chainer
08-13-2006, 10:31 PM
I've never bashed Griffey.

I wasn't pointing fingers. ;)

Razor Shines
08-13-2006, 11:18 PM
And he's horrible defensively. Let's not forget that fact.

Last night, should have had Delucci's shot. And I don't remember who hit the ball to center that looked like it bounced directly off Jr's chest as he slid, since his lack of range led to the slide attempt.

Blackhole in CF, blackhole in the 3 spot.
I don't know if you were exaggerating for effect or not but that ball did not bounce off of his chest.

Ron Madden
08-14-2006, 12:52 AM
Where's the Griffey bashing tonight after going 3 for 6?

Oddly enough....it seems to be lacking! :rolleyes:

Wasn't bashing Griffey at all.

I believe KGJ would be more productive if given some rest.