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Wheelhouse
08-17-2006, 02:23 PM
Just took a look at their performances with DC--Kearns hitting .233 with a .685 OPS Lopez hitting the same as when he was with the Reds, but has SEVEN errors in 29 games. I'm glad that stuff is happening for JIMBO's team. Kearns packing it in is a little disappointing though...

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 02:51 PM
Shall we dig up the miserable numbers for Majewski and Bray in Cincinnati?

Or shall we just drop it for a while?

reds44
08-17-2006, 02:59 PM
The trade sucked for both teams.



/thread

Wheelhouse
08-17-2006, 03:00 PM
Shall we dig up the miserable numbers for Majewski and Bray in Cincinnati?

Or shall we just drop it for a while?

Well, simple question, given:

The performances of players---remember, this includes the performance of the Reds' bullpen pre-trade, and the performances of the players who have replaced traded players---Is the team better on balance? I would say yes. Majewski and Bray have fared about as well as their predecessors, with maybe a little edge to Bray. Freel in right is an upgrade both offensively and defensively (so far) and Clayton was a move down, but if Rich plays SS it's an upgrade both defensively and offensively. So on balance, today, I'd say the Reds are better because of the trade. I like the lineup today better than any lineup Narron could put out with Kearns and Lopez in it...that's what matters to me.

Rojo
08-17-2006, 03:33 PM
Just took a look at their performances with DC--Kearns hitting .233 with a .685 OPS Lopez hitting the same as when he was with the Reds, but has SEVEN errors in 29 games. I'm glad that stuff is happening for JIMBO's team. Kearns packing it in is a little disappointing though...

Hazy and lazy were the ones that had to go, that's never been the question. But could the return have been better? Greg Maddux-better?

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 04:08 PM
Well, simple question, given:

The performances of players---remember, this includes the performance of the Reds' bullpen pre-trade, and the performances of the players who have replaced traded players---Is the team better on balance? I would say yes. Majewski and Bray have fared about as well as their predecessors, with maybe a little edge to Bray. Freel in right is an upgrade both offensively and defensively (so far) and Clayton was a move down, but if Rich plays SS it's an upgrade both defensively and offensively. So on balance, today, I'd say the Reds are better because of the trade. I like the lineup today better than any lineup Narron could put out with Kearns and Lopez in it...that's what matters to me.

Better on paper? Maybe, according to some. Better in terms of performance? No. Majewski's and Bray's stats speak for themselves.

In terms of Freel replacing Kearns and Aurilia, those moves could have been made without the trade.

backbencher
08-17-2006, 04:15 PM
Hazy and lazy were the ones that had to go, that's never been the question. But could the return have been better? Greg Maddux-better?

Rojo, I agree. This is the only question worth debating, isn't it?

So let's answer it. Who were the other arms that were traded or reasonably believed to be on the market that would have been arguably a better return over the past month or so?

My initial list:

Maddux
Wickman
Baez
Hendrickson
Hernandez
Lidle

Lieber
Lidge
Linebrink
Willis

I'm sure there are others.

Now, are there any of those arms that would have been better (factoring in short and long term as you see fit) and available to the Reds?

Reds1
08-17-2006, 05:04 PM
I'd actually say Clayton who came in the trade has done ok. Not great, but ok. But with Kearns and FeLo gone it looks like we can get EE, BP, Freel, Hatte, and RA all in the starting line up at the same time. That's a good thing, but are bench is weeker. I think Kearns is unhappy. I don't blame him. Go from contender in cincy with friends to Bowden and Nationals who are out of it. Tough on a player.

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 06:11 PM
I'd actually say Clayton who came in the trade has done ok. Not great, but ok. But with Kearns and FeLo gone it looks like we can get EE, BP, Freel, Hatte, and RA all in the starting line up at the same time. That's a good thing, but are bench is weeker. I think Kearns is unhappy. I don't blame him. Go from contender in cincy with friends to Bowden and Nationals who are out of it. Tough on a player.

Why couldn't the Reds have done that before the trade, though? Is there any reason?

Reds1
08-17-2006, 07:29 PM
If they would have done that then Kearns and FeLo have no trade value. :)

Nugget
08-17-2006, 08:33 PM
Better on paper? Maybe, according to some. Better in terms of performance? No. Majewski's and Bray's stats speak for themselves.

In terms of Freel replacing Kearns and Aurilia, those moves could have been made without the trade.

You say the trade may be better on paper but you quote the stats as being a measure of performance. The stats are the paper the results are the performance. FWIW Bray has contributed greatly to the success of the bullpen lately and Harris may be on his way to contributing to the REDS next year with BP in the middle infield.

Rojo
08-17-2006, 08:35 PM
The thing of it is that Wayne thought this trade helped this year and in future years.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 08:43 PM
The thing of it is that Wayne thought this trade helped this year and in future years.

I prefer my mediocrity all in one lump sum.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 01:45 AM
You say the trade may be better on paper but you quote the stats as being a measure of performance. The stats are the paper the results are the performance. FWIW Bray has contributed greatly to the success of the bullpen lately and Harris may be on his way to contributing to the REDS next year with BP in the middle infield.

"Better on paper" means that the names look more palatable when you see them on the roster. On paper, Majewski is better than Yan for a number of reasons -- performance in the recent past, age, etc.

On the field, however, Majewski has been every bit as bad as Yan was for the Reds, so his performance hasn't helped the team.

BTW - You say Bray has "contributed greatly" to the success of the bullpen lately. What has he contributed besides a 4.40 ERA and 26 baserunners in 14.1 innings?

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 02:20 AM
BTW - You say Bray has "contributed greatly" to the success of the bullpen lately. What has he contributed besides a 4.40 ERA and 26 baserunners in 14.1 innings?

When Bray was acquired, either Wayne or Narron said he was valuable since he could be used vs lefties or righties. Yet, despite Bray being relatively fresh ( last appearances: 0 IP Aug 15 and 2 Ip on Aug 13), Narron still runs out Ryan Franklin tonight in a tie game.

That's the tragedy of this season. Wayne has brought in all these bullpen arms, yet outside of Guaradado, Narron doesn't seem to have much confidence in the new comers. Well, I guess Narron did have misplaced confidence in Franklin.. :thumbdown Coffey and Weathers seem to Narron's "money" guys before the 9th. Bray seems to have fallen out of favor, but maybe that's only temporary.

lollipopcurve
08-18-2006, 09:35 AM
initial results are less than inspiring for both teams -- but with the exception of Clayton all players have many years to go -- 06 is chapter one only