PDA

View Full Version : The comedy conintues ...



flyer85
08-18-2006, 09:40 AM
from the DDN today


ST. LOUIS | It was after Wednesday night's game and the newest occupant of the Cincinnati Reds' bullpen, Scott Schoeneweis, walked to his locker wearing an ice bag on his left knee big enough to sink the Bismarck to the bottom of the sea.


And he didn't even pitch.


Some eyebrows raised around the clubhouse after all the problems with injuries to bullpen guys brought in from other teams ó Gary Majewski (shoulder), Eddie Guardado (forearm), Rheal Cormier (gluteus maximus).
Schoeneweis says it is nothing.
"A freakish thing," he said. "Did it about 10 days ago running in the outfield in Toronto. I lost my footing and slipped. I blew some stuff out in the back of my knee

I guess the Reds haven't got the medical report yet.

cumberlandreds
08-18-2006, 09:47 AM
Unbelievable. Simply unbelieveable. Well, I wasn't expecting anything from Schoenweiss, so it looks like we will get nothing.

RedLegSuperStar
08-18-2006, 09:49 AM
from the DDN today



I guess the Reds haven't got the medical report yet.


We've given up Kearns/Lopez (take your pick), Travis Chick, Justin Germano, and either cash or a PTBNL

It's becoming a trend and unfortunatly its taking a hit on our Future of the team. Yes we want to win now but arn't we DL/Day-to-Day'n these guys to rest them? I like the moves, but I like having some results of the moves. Hopefully we don't have to give Toronto a dime/player for someone who isn't going to pitch and least not for the Pittsburg series..

BuckeyeRedleg
08-18-2006, 10:28 AM
I agree, but with the performance of Lohse to this point, I'll cut Wayne a little slack on his other whiffs.

The Kearns/Lopez deal still bothers me, but it's water under the bridge for me now.

His latest series of moves leave something to be desired, but like I said Lohse and even Guardado have been solid. We really need Lohse to keep it up and Eddie to make it to October, somehow.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 10:43 AM
I agree, but with the performance of Lohse to this point, I'll cut Wayne a little slack on his other whiffs.

The Kearns/Lopez deal still bothers me, but it's water under the bridge for me now.

His latest series of moves leave something to be desired, but like I said Lohse and even Guardado have been solid. We really need Lohse to keep it up and Eddie to make it to October, somehow.

A broken clock is still right twice a day.

redsfan30
08-18-2006, 11:00 AM
Another injured player aquired.

It's getting hard to defend Mr. Krivsky.

Tommyjohn25
08-18-2006, 11:12 AM
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
Or six times a day, but whatever.

Brandon Phillips

Scott Hatteberg

David Ross

Bronson Arroyo

Kyle Lohse

Eddie Guardado

I'll go ahead and leave out Bill Bray since he was the product of a controversial trade.

Can you honestly say that you think the Reds would be where they are as of today without these players? I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but...continue with the regularly scheduled Krivsky bashing.

westofyou
08-18-2006, 11:14 AM
It's becoming a trend and unfortunatly its taking a hit on our Future of the team.

Acquired for what?

A player to be named later IIRC.

If he doesn't play or perform that affects what they get, if he just uses ice then he just uses ice, and they get nothing... what "future" player is going out, and who exactly defined the vision of the future that might be going out, Bowden or O'Brien?

This is a garage sale deal, nothing more nothing less, 12 days until the rosters expand and then the Reds can have an all LH BP.... woo hooo!!

smith288
08-18-2006, 11:27 AM
Player to be named later is an up-and-comer with a bright future. We cant keep trading him like this.

redsfan30
08-18-2006, 11:30 AM
I should clear up what I said above. Wayne Krivsky has done a fantastic job this season and if he doesn't win Executive of the Year there's something wrong.

It's just alittle disturbing that this is the third pitcher he's aquired who has turned out to be injured, and all three were injured before they came over.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 11:36 AM
I guess asking why a GM would trade for a pitcher with an injured knee is a rhetorical question.

traderumor
08-18-2006, 11:49 AM
Does anyone know if Krivsky didn't already know about it and he doesn't seeing it impact the reason for the deal? Innuendo, assumptions...does anyone use logic anymore?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 11:54 AM
Does anyone know if Krivsky didn't already know about it and he doesn't seeing it impact the reason for the deal? Innuendo, assumptions...does anyone use logic anymore?the Toronto press release talked about "nagging leg injury" so I doubt they hid anything.

It doesn't do much good to have a lot of guys in the pen who aren't healthy enough to take the ball on a consistent basis.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060816&content_id=1612791&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor


Recently, Schoeneweis has been battling a nagging leg injury. On July 27, he lost his footing during his normal pregame running routine and tweaked the area of his leg where the hamstring meets the knee. The ailment wasn't serious enough to warrant a stint on the disabled list, but Schoeneweis' leg hasn't been 100 percent since.

Since the injury, Schoeneweis has appeared in 4 1/3 innings and has given up six runs on five hits. During that same span, the lefty has walked four batters and struck out just one. On Tuesday, Schoeneweis entered the game against Tampa Bay in the eighth inning to face Carl Crawford, who bats left-handed. The southpaw walked Crawford to load the bases and was pulled from the game -- his last with the Jays.

Seems to me this deal amounts to nothing more than stupidity. WK traded for a pitcher with a leg injury who has been completely inerrective since sustaining it and now wants to make him a Red in the heat of a playoff chase. The Reds were better off with a healthy Shack than an injured and ineffective SS.

dabvu2498
08-18-2006, 11:56 AM
Recently, Schoeneweis has been battling a nagging leg injury. On July 27, he lost his footing during his normal pregame running routine and tweaked the area of his leg where the hamstring meets the knee. The ailment wasn't serious enough to warrant a stint on the disabled list, but Schoeneweis' leg hasn't been 100 percent since.

Since the injury, Schoeneweis has appeared in 4 1/3 innings and has given up six runs on five hits. During that same span, the lefty has walked four batters and struck out just one.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Ltlabner
08-18-2006, 11:59 AM
Schoeneweis, 32, appeared in 55 games this season, posting a 2-2 record and 6.51 ERA but hasnít been as effective since the all-star break, in part because of a nagging leg injury. Overall, the six-foot, 190-pound left-hander allowed 39 hits in 37.1 innings, while walking 16 and striking out 18.

Somehow I doubt it traderumor. Here's a blurb from one of the articles announcing the trade.

I'd like to see this huge list of great pitchers that are available right now.

So he trades for a mediocre pitcher in hopes a change of scenery will help (Mayes, Yan) and he can contribute something to the team. Some people here roast him alive.

So he trades for a pitcher with decent numbers but is older (Cromier, Everyday) in hopes that their decent numbers combined with some experience may contriubute something to the team. Some people roast him alive.

So he trades for a pitcher with decent numbers but has a "nagging" knee injury in hopes the injury isn't as big of a deal as it sounds and that pitcher can contribute something to the staff down the strech. Some people here roast him alive.

He's making deals to add something to the team for the strech drive. He's giving up PTBNL. People act as if we have a farm system overflowing with hot young tallent that is just about to make the team. The fact is, the vast majority of our farm system stinks. So if we give some of it up now what's the harm to the team?

There isn't a huge list of top flight pitchers available so you have to take what is on the market. I imagine he could just go with what he has and wait till the offseason....but then some people here would roast him alive for that too.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:00 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:maybe Wayne didn't read the fine print.

The Reds now have three LHPs in the pen with injury and possibly effectiveness issues. It makes absolutely no sense. They really need to DL one of these guys and get Belisle back up here. What happens if they have to go to the pen early?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:04 PM
So he trades for a pitcher with decent numbers but has a "nagging" knee injury in hopes the injury isn't as big of a deal as it sounds and that pitcher can contribute something to the staff down the strech. Some people here roast him alive.
and in the short term he likely makes the team worse by acquiring a guy who has been effective and at the same time sends out the most effective LOOGY the team has. Does it make any sense in either the short term(over the next week) or the long term when the guy has a leg problem that has been bothering him for 3 weeks? It tells me the only way SS gets back to healthy and effective is with a DL stint.

dabvu2498
08-18-2006, 12:05 PM
So he trades for a pitcher with decent numbers but has a "nagging" knee injury in hopes the injury isn't as big of a deal as it sounds and that pitcher can contribute something to the staff down the strech. Some people here roast him alive.
Wouldn't bother me, except for the fact that there's a perfectly healthy LHRP with the same or better numbers as the "naggingly injured" who can't get off the I-71 loop between Louisville and Cincy.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:07 PM
Wouldn't bother me, except for the fact that there's a perfectly healthy LHRP with the same or better numbers as the "naggingly injured" who can't get off the I-71 loop between Louisville and Cincy.a healthy SS was nothing but a redundancy as was pointed out at the time of the trade (even before his health was a known issue).

Ltlabner
08-18-2006, 12:07 PM
My guess is Shacks "problems with the ladys" in Milwauke have made him less than popular around the FO. Just a hunch. I'm not saying that is right or a good move, just a guess as to why Shack is out of favor right now.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 12:09 PM
Or six times a day, but whatever.

Brandon Phillips

Scott Hatteberg

David Ross

Bronson Arroyo

Kyle Lohse

Eddie Guardado

I'll go ahead and leave out Bill Bray since he was the product of a controversial trade.

Can you honestly say that you think the Reds would be where they are as of today without these players? I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but...continue with the regularly scheduled Krivsky bashing.

He hit the lottery on Phillips, Ross, and Guardado acquiring them for little or nothing. The jury is still out on Kyle Lohse because he's Kyle Lohse.

How's this for a list of non-contributors:

Esteban Yan

Cody Ross

Joe Mays

Gary Majewski

Rheal Cormier (plus a $2.25 million extension)

Royce Clayton

Juan Castro

Todd Hollandsworth

Scott Schoeneweis

Ryan Franklin

The guy is the anti-O'Brien -- movement for movement's sake. When you throw a handfull of rocks, one or two are going to hit the target. But with Wayne, it looks like there are a lot more misses than hits.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 12:12 PM
He hit the lottery on Phillips, Ross, and Guardado acquiring them for little or nothing.

. . .

But with Wayne, it looks like there are a lot more misses than hits.

Big hits. Small misses. Seems like a recipe for success to me.

(Trading for already-injured guys, not so much.)

Big Klu
08-18-2006, 12:12 PM
You really think that Juan Castro is a non-contributor? I think that he has done a good job in his role since rejoining the club.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:15 PM
Big hits. Small misses. Seems like a recipe for success to me.

(Trading for already-injured guys, not so much.)Majewski was a very big miss. The Reds are dying for another RH reliever in the pen at the moment.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 12:15 PM
Big hits. Small misses. Seems like a recipe for success to me.

(Trading for already-injured guys, not so much.)

Joe Mays was a "small" miss? Royce Clayton? Even Esteban Yan and Ryan Franklin, in their limited roles, have done their part to hurt the team. Those "small misses" add up, especially in a pennant race (crawl?) like this one.


You really think that Juan Castro is a non-contributor? I think that he has done a good job in his role since rejoining the club.

He's Juan Castro, and he will always be Juan Castro. Any contribution he makes is purely luck.

TRF
08-18-2006, 12:21 PM
Majewski was a very big miss. The Reds are dying for another RH reliever in the pen at the moment.

Meanwhile, Matt Belisle continues to throw zeroes on the board so Schoenweiss can ice his knee.

ugh.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 12:24 PM
Joe Mays was a "small" miss? Royce Clayton? Even Esteban Yan and Ryan Franklin, in their limited roles, have done their part to hurt the team. Those "small misses" add up, especially in a pennant race (crawl?) like this one.

You're talking trees. I'm talking forest. The "pennant race like this one" wouldn't exist without Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips, Ross. Does that give Krivsly carte blanche to muck around or to pick up guys who are physically unabel to help? No. But if his scrap-heap diving produces one Phillips for every three Yans, that seems like a fair exchange rate for this year.

westofyou
08-18-2006, 12:29 PM
He's Juan Castro, and he will always be Juan Castro. Any contribution he makes is purely luck.

Luck is the residue of design.... or so I hear.

Earl Weaver made a career out of leveraging those types of players into the proper place.

When Juan Castro represents 1.4% of your teams total at bats for the season that's a start in the right direction, last time he was in town he got 5.4% of the teams at bats.

Big Klu
08-18-2006, 12:29 PM
He's Juan Castro, and he will always be Juan Castro. Any contribution he makes is purely luck.

No, he's a light-hitting backup middle infielder in the 70's and 80's mold. But he has value, and he is doing well in that role. (I also thought he did well in that role--when properly utilized--in his first stint with the club.)

If he doesn't measure up to some people's expectations, that's not his fault. He is what he is, and maybe their expectations are too high.



Meanwhile, Matt Belisle continues to throw zeroes on the board so Schoenweiss can ice his knee.

ugh.

How many innings has he pitched on rehab? Are they trying to stretch Belisle out to take a rotation spot?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:30 PM
Are they trying to stretch Belisle out to take a rotation spot?no evidence of that

Big Klu
08-18-2006, 12:32 PM
no evidence of that

OK, thanks. I didn't know.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:32 PM
Meanwhile, Matt Belisle continues to throw zeroes on the board so Schoenweiss can ice his knee.

ugh.I pointed out before the SS deal the best thing that could happen would be to get a healthy Standridge and Belisle back.

The love of veteran "experience" is really starting to weigh heavily.

traderumor
08-18-2006, 12:33 PM
Luck is the residue of design.... or so I hear.

Earl Weaver made a career out of leveraging those types of players into the proper place.

When Juan Castro represents 1.4% of your teams total at bats for the season that's a start in the right direction, last time he was in town he got 5.4% of the teams at bats.Not to mention the value of his post-homerun counseling sessions noted on the tele Weds. night. That was one of the best pickups George and Chris had all year.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 12:35 PM
You're talking trees. I'm talking forest. The "pennant race like this one" wouldn't exist without Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips, Ross. Does that give Krivsly carte blanche to muck around or to pick up guys who are physically unabel to help? No. But if his scrap-heap diving produces one Phillips for every three Yans, that seems like a fair exchange rate for this year.

Actually, the pennant crawl wouldn't exist if not for Mark Mulder, So Taguchi, Aaron Miles, Sidney Ponson, and all the other derelicts the Cardinals have trotted out there in an attempt to keep things interesting.

As it is, the Reds are at a point where everything counts and every mistake is magnified. "Small misses" like Ryan Franklin and Gary Majewski could cost the team a shot at the playoffs.


If he doesn't measure up to some people's expectations, that's not his fault. He is what he is, and maybe their expectations are too high.

Personally, I only expected him to be Juan Castro -- late-inning defensive replacement for Felipe Lopez. My biggest disappointment is that he's received any ABs at all. 1.4% is still too much. (BTW - that's a percentage of the team's total ABs for the season. What percentage of ABs has he received since he was acquired in June?)

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:38 PM
Seeing the man love Narron has shown for Franklin I am rooting for Majewski to come back.

Of course activating Belisle today should be a no-brainer, oh well.

lollipopcurve
08-18-2006, 12:40 PM
"Small misses" like Ryan Franklin and Gary Majewski could cost the team a shot at the playoffs.

Only if one assumes that the acquisitions of Arroyo, Phillips, etc., would have been made by anybody else in the GM chair, while the acquisitions of Majewski and Franklin would have been made only by Krivsky.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 12:43 PM
Only if one assumes that the acquisitions of Arroyo, Phillips, etc., would have been made by anybody else in the GM chair, while the acquisitions of Majewski and Franklin would have been made only by Krivsky.

So Krivsky gets credit for building the team in March, but takes no blame for kicking the team in the shins in July and August?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:46 PM
So Krivsky gets credit for building the team in March, but takes no blame for kicking the team in the shins in July and August?for some.

WK has had his share of good and bad deals. I understand that is nature of the business.

What scares the heck out of me is that he thought some of these guys (Majewski, Cormier, Hollandsworth, Schoenweis, etc) were of any value in the first place.

Ltlabner
08-18-2006, 12:47 PM
So Krivsky gets credit for building the team in March, but takes no blame for kicking the team in the shins in July and August?


Not at all.

But neither should be called an idiot and that it's time for him to go because people don't like his most recient moves. Or if you don't like "the trade" that doesn't suddenly discount every other move he's made.

You have to look at his overall record and what he's built as a team over the whopping 8 months he's been here.

If you look at that 8 month record and don't like what you see, so be it. But people around here very much react to the latest news or move. It's just like after a loss, you'd think by reading this board that the Reds were the worst franchise in baseball history. Same with player moves.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 12:47 PM
Actually, the pennant crawl wouldn't exist if not for Mark Mulder, So Taguchi, Aaron Miles, Sidney Ponson, and all the other derelicts the Cardinals have trotted out there in an attempt to keep things interesting.

Sounds to me like good pitching is hard to find. Who knew?

And even if the Reds were .500 against the Cards for the season, they still would be in the thick of the wildcard hunt.


As it is, the Reds are at a point where everything counts and every mistake is magnified. "Small misses" like Ryan Franklin and Gary Majewski could cost the team a shot at the playoffs.

Sure. And trading for expensive, injured loogies who aren't as good as Shackleford is silly. We can agree on that.

But Krivsky has been good enough that his small misses actually matter. I like that. And if, in your terms, he can "hit the lottery" on three acquisitions in one year - well, I need me some of them odds.

Junk dealer Wayne's current style would not be suited for a deep organization, so I hope that he changes over time. When the same process brings in Arroyo and Clayton, Schoenweiss and Ross, I'm not going to look only at the part of the couplet that I don't like, though.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 12:53 PM
Junk dealer Wayne's current style would not be suited for a deep organization, so I hope that he changes over time. When the same process brings in Arroyo and Clayton, Schoenweiss and Ross, I'm not going to look only at the part of the couplet that I don't like, though.

If we were just dealing with couplets, it wouldn't be so bad.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 12:56 PM
What scares the heck out of me is that he thought some of these guys (Majewski, Cormier, Hollandsworth, Schoenweis, etc) were of any value in the first place.

Personally, I would put McCracken at the top of the huh? pile.

But then again, other organizations thought that Phillips, Ross (two Rosses, I would argue) and Guardado had little value.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:57 PM
Personally, I would put McCracken at the top Reds gave up nothing for QM and he didn't play enough to have anything more than a very minor impact. Honestly I'd rather have QM taking swings off the bench than Hollandsworth.

lollipopcurve
08-18-2006, 12:59 PM
But Krivsky has been good enough that his small misses actually matter.

Exactly. The good, big stuff (Dunn's deal, Arroyo, Phillips) far outweighs the bad, little stuff so far. I'm on the fence re: the Nats deal -- waiting to see if Majewski rebounds, how Harris and Thompson develop, and, most importantly, whether Kearns and Lopez continue to improve (I don't expect Wagner to succeed) . If that trade flops, his scorecard evens out.

MaineRed
08-18-2006, 01:04 PM
What scares the heck out of me is that he thought some of these guys (Majewski, Cormier, Hollandsworth, Schoenweis, etc) were of any value in the first place.

Tell me about it. Cormier only had the best bullpen ERA in baseball at the time of the trade.

The Reds should do their best to shy away from those type guys and go for players who can really get the job done.

And Majewski is young and talented. Of course he has no value. We're just lucky WK didn't give the Nats Dunn and Edwin in that deal as well.

Thanks for kicking us in the shins Wayne.

:rolleyes:

backbencher
08-18-2006, 01:05 PM
Reds gave up nothing for QM and he didn't play enough to have anything more than a very minor impact. Honestly I'd rather have QM taking swings off the bench than Hollandsworth.

They gave up Cody Ross to keep him. I liked Cody Ross.

To the extent that this thread is about the criteria Krivsky uses to evaluate talent, QM is as relevant as SS, I would think.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Tell me about it. Cormier only had the best bullpen ERA in baseball at the time of the trade.:rolleyes:and it was mostly a fluke, having a little to do with usage pattern, but mostly nothing but a random fluctuation of good fortune.

Why was I not surprised he has stunk it up with the Reds? Because I delved into the numbers that define Cormier and who he is a pitcher(BB rate, K rate, HR rate) and I didn't like what I saw and also noted that his current ERA was completely unsustainable(which is waht xERA points out).

When you don't miss bats at all (Cormier) you are relying on defense(Reds isn't good), a fortunate BABIP, and a very low HR rate.

I pointed out in a post that the xERA(expected ERA) of Cormier (4.12) was actually higher than that SS(3.99) at the time of the trade on Tuesday.

BTW, the same stuff holds true for non bat missing types like Majewski, Franklin and Schoenweiss.

BTW, xERA does not remove his BABIP good fortune from the equation.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 01:10 PM
If we were just dealing with couplets, it wouldn't be so bad.

Deal with more, then. Reds February 7, 2006 vs. Reds August 18, 2006. Which organization is in better shape?

Or take it this way. It's pretty evident that the same criteria were used to acquire Guardado as Cormier, Schoenweis and Franklin. If you were to unwind those four deals, would the team be in better or worse shape today?

Doc. Scott
08-18-2006, 01:15 PM
I would have said it was "buying low" with Schoeneweis, but he's making a ton of cash for someone who does what he does.

Besides, the Reds have already guaranteed $2.25 million in '07 to a 40-year-old-to-be.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:17 PM
I would have said it was "buying low" with Schoeneweis, but he's making a ton of cash for someone who does what he does.

Besides, the Reds have already guaranteed $2.25 million in '07 to a 40-year-old-to-be.If Schoeneweis is hurt and thus ineffective "buying" at all really becomes a moot point.

backbencher
08-18-2006, 01:17 PM
Besides, the Reds have already guaranteed $2.25 million in '07 to a 40-year-old-to-be.

I would flag this as the worst WK decision of the year in my book.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 01:32 PM
Tell me about it. Cormier only had the best bullpen ERA in baseball at the time of the trade.

The Reds should do their best to shy away from those type guys and go for players who can really get the job done.

And Majewski is young and talented. Of course he has no value. We're just lucky WK didn't give the Nats Dunn and Edwin in that deal as well.

Thanks for kicking us in the shins Wayne.

:rolleyes:

Anyone with a concept of peripherals would have realized Cormier's ERA was an illusion. At least Wayne got him on the cheap.

Insist that Majewski it "talented" all you want, but he's never been anything more than a mediocre middle reliever.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:34 PM
Insist that Majewski it "talented" all you want, but he's never been anything more than a mediocre middle reliever.that 's the picture the peripherals paint.

Want a really effective reliever not dependent on defense and luck? Find one that misses bats and doesn't give up many HRs.

TeamBoone
08-18-2006, 01:43 PM
At least put the guy on the DL instead of taking up a much-needed roster space.

TheBigLebowski
08-18-2006, 01:44 PM
that 's the picture the peripherals paint.

Want a really effective reliever not dependent on defense and luck? Find one that misses bats and doesn't give up many HRs.

I always thought the trade was bad even if we were getting a healthy, talented Majewski. AFA the above, while Majewski does not miss many bats, the guy does somehow manage to keep the ball in the park.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:44 PM
At least put the guy on the DL instead of taking up a much-needed roster space.seems like it is ought to be common sense to do that.

So what's the problem?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:46 PM
while Majewski does not miss many bats, the guy does somehow manage to keep the ball in the park.the problem is that to not be really bad he must continue to keep a low HR rate. If it spikes at all you end up with Rick White(who has had some success in Philly because he has only give up 1 HR in 20+ IP).

Plus I always wonder how well HR supression will translate to GABP when coming from a serious pitchers park (like RFK).

TheBigLebowski
08-18-2006, 02:14 PM
Plus I always wonder how well HR supression will translate to GABP when coming from a serious pitchers park (like RFK).

This is our concern, Dude.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:16 PM
This is our concern, Dude.I thought you were "The Dude"?

westofyou
08-18-2006, 02:22 PM
Plus I always wonder how well HR supression will translate to GABP when coming from a serious pitchers park (like RFK).

MLB 1 HR every 19 IP

Minors 1 every 16 IP (573 IP)

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:26 PM
MLB 1 HR every 19 IP
A year and a half in the majors suggests that independent of RFK he is decent(not great) for a releif pitcher at HR suppression, but with a high BB rate and low K rate he had better be that and then some. If his HR rate spikes at all he falls into the abyss.

BRM
08-18-2006, 02:34 PM
How many sore-armed pitchers are on the active roster right now?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:35 PM
How many sore-armed pitchers are on the active roster right now?

sore arm - at least one
sore butt - at least one
sore knee - at least one and likely two

registerthis
08-18-2006, 02:35 PM
Insist that Majewski it "talented" all you want, but he's never been anything more than a mediocre middle reliever.

Yep. A low-K, high contact guy who benefitted from pitching in the cavern that is RFK. He was very BABIP lucky in '05 (.240) and his K/9 was only 5.23.

You do wonder who in the Reds organizations looks at these stats prior to determining whom to acquire--and what they do with the knowledge they gain from them.

Doc. Scott
08-18-2006, 02:36 PM
If Schoeneweis is hurt and thus ineffective "buying" at all really becomes a moot point.

Well, I doubt these PTBNLs we're giving up to get people like Schoeneweis are going to come back to haunt us. I'm probably stating the obvious, but by far the most dangerous deal was the Nationals one. None of the others particularly scare me in terms of talent/potential loss.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:36 PM
You do wonder who in the Reds organizations looks at these stats prior to determining whom to acquire--and what they do with the knowledge they gain from them.obviously not the right people.

BRM
08-18-2006, 02:37 PM
sore arm - at least one
sore butt - at least one
sore knee - at least one and likely two

Cormier has the sore butt, right? Everyday has a sore arm. Who's the other sore knee?

westofyou
08-18-2006, 02:38 PM
sore butt - at least one

Butt, hip... what is it really?

Tall guy, I'm going with sciatica myself... which doesn't worry me in the long run, but it is an issue.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:38 PM
None of the others particularly scare me in terms of talent/potential loss.other than the fact that said acquisition might actually make the team worse (which with an injured and ineffective SS seems like a very distinct possibility).

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:39 PM
Butt, hip... what is it really?
what I read said it was a problem with the gluteus maximus

vaticanplum
08-18-2006, 02:41 PM
I haven't read through this whole thread, but I will point out that a whoooole lot of teams are suffering from sore pitching staffs at this point. It's that time of the season. Now, granted, not all of these pitchers were just acquired, and that's certainly something that needs to be corrected with the Reds, but all of our infirm pitchers may be feeling better within a matter of months.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:43 PM
but all of our infirm pitchers may be feeling better within a matter of months.as near as I can tell they won't be of much help at that point. :D

Chip R
08-18-2006, 02:50 PM
Call me crazy but I'm thinking Wayne doesn't really care whether the guys he trades for are damaged goods or not. He evidently doesn't have the patience to do any research on the players he acquires as far as injuries go. While it may have been somewhat of a state secret that Majewski was hurting, it appears that Shoenweis' injury was common knowledge. If it wasn't why isn't Wayne calling shenanigans on the Jays? One thing this doesn't do is help Wayne's case against JimBo and the Nats. JimBo may have pulled a fast one on Wayne but this second trade makes it look like Wayne just goes after players obsessively. I wonder if Wayne had known every little detail about Majewski's injury if he still would have traded for him.

oregonred
08-18-2006, 02:52 PM
Schoenweis -- As noted in the trade thread, this one was simply a waste of money and not a talent loss issue.

Despite all his good moves, I would imagine a smart businessman like Castellini will be asking his GM at some point to start doing more background checks and explaining why he wasted $500K on 6-week rental fodder when the guy isn't apparently available to immediately help the team.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 02:56 PM
Who's the other sore knee?having a little fun. Milton and his "degenerative knee" is most likely always an issue.

westofyou
08-18-2006, 02:59 PM
what I read said it was a problem with the gluteus maximus
Then it's probably sciatic in nature, it can come and go in a day, anything can trigger it... including a new bed in a new town.

It's literally a pain in the butt.

westofyou
08-18-2006, 03:13 PM
Sign the Reds up for that Lay's sponsorship, because when it comes to relievers, I betcha they can't have just one... more. Seems appropriate enough, since Wayne Krivsky was properly screwed in the deal with the Nats, but enough about that. Schoeneweis gives the Reds exactly what they had in Mercker and what they thought they'd gotten in Rheal Cormier before he started hobbling up as well, and now that the team's in for several pennies, you can understand how they've decided to just stop counting and do whatever it takes to keep their bid for the wild-card going. There isn't all much talent in the farm system left in the organization anyway, so a PTBNL probably won't be anyone they'll miss, and if it's a matter of instead spending extra cash to get to the playoffs, that would more than pay for itself. Basically, the organization that Wayne Krivsky inherited wasn't too far from broken, so no problem as far as going for broke now. Rebuilding the farm system is a multi-year project to start off with, so it isn't like going out and getting Schoeneweis undermines that. We can debate the marginal difference between Shackelford and Schoeneweis, but I don't really begrudge them that before even getting to the question over whether or not Shackelford passed his most recent good citizenship check.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5439#CIN

flyer85
08-18-2006, 03:16 PM
I wonder if Kahrl would feel differently if he/she knew about the "leg issue". No mention of it is made in the BP article.

Jpup
08-18-2006, 03:48 PM
Then it's probably sciatic in nature, it can come and go in a day, anything can trigger it... including a new bed in a new town.

It's literally a pain in the butt.

I have the same problem, but(no pun intended) it's more in my hip. Repetitve motion caused it for me, and also walking on concrete for 8-12 hours a day. I'll go a month and not have a problem and then it will just start hurting all of a sudden.

We need a resident Redzone physician at times like this. ;)

westofyou
08-18-2006, 03:57 PM
I have the same problem, but(no pun intended) it's more in my hip. Repetitve motion caused it for me, and also walking on concrete for 8-12 hours a day. I'll go a month and not have a problem and then it will just start hurting all of a sudden.

We need a resident Redzone physician at times like this. ;)
Me too, I have 1/2 an extra backbone, it compresses my bottom disc, which bulges and hits nerves... different ones, all the time... I've been living with it for 30 year now, comes and goes. It can be my hip, my butt, my legs, my back... all big arse pain. Best thing for it is exercise, stay fit and it will only linger.

osuceltic
08-18-2006, 04:01 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5439#CIN
Some sanity ...

Look, Krivsky is trying to get the team to the postseason. He's not building the perfect team for the long haul -- he's patching holes as he goes just hoping he can get them to the playoffs. He hasn't given up much to do it. These kinds of moves are just bridge moves -- get us to next week, to the week after, to next month, etc. He isn't touching the core of the team or the jewels of the system. This is what contending teams do. I realize it has been a long time since the Reds were in contention, but have some of you really forgotten what that means? That's how it seems.

TheBigLebowski
08-18-2006, 04:47 PM
I thought you were "The Dude"?

I am...quoting Brant from the movie, when the other Lebowski is all cheesed off that the kidnappers did not receive the money, and the plane has crashed into the (expletive) mountain!!

"This is our concern, Dude."

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 04:48 PM
Maybe they'll file a grievance...

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 04:52 PM
There's nothing like having a 20-man roster....

dsmith421
08-18-2006, 05:01 PM
There's nothing like having a 20-man roster....

Yep, leads directly to having the worst pitcher on the staff out there in the most critical situation of the season.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:02 PM
Yep, leads directly to having the worst pitcher on the staff out there in the most critical situation of the season.

Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:03 PM
Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

Yeah, he's done a god awful job in his short tenure with no offseason...

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah, he's done a god awful job...

In roster management?

The worst I've ever seen. It's not even close. It's like he has no contact with his on-the-field manager.

Cedric
08-18-2006, 05:08 PM
Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

You might be more viable to listen to if you weren't a schtick.

Ltlabner
08-18-2006, 05:09 PM
Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

FCB, I can normally see past your dramatics to the heart of what you are trying to say, but do you really think Krivsky is an imbecile?

You are certinally entitled to your opinion, but wow.

TeamBoone
08-18-2006, 05:10 PM
Call me crazy but I'm thinking Wayne doesn't really care whether the guys he trades for are damaged goods or not. He evidently doesn't have the patience to do any research on the players he acquires as far as injuries go. While it may have been somewhat of a state secret that Majewski was hurting, it appears that Shoenweis' injury was common knowledge. If it wasn't why isn't Wayne calling shenanigans on the Jays? One thing this doesn't do is help Wayne's case against JimBo and the Nats. JimBo may have pulled a fast one on Wayne but this second trade makes it look like Wayne just goes after players obsessively. I wonder if Wayne had known every little detail about Majewski's injury if he still would have traded for him.

This crossed my mind as well, Chip. Though I guess the difference is, he knew about this one and went for him anyway.

He must see potential in him, or I'm sure he wouldn't have gone through with it. In addition, it must have affected the cost (cheaper?).

I'm more scratching my head as to why he's not on the DL so that Shack could remain active.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:12 PM
You might be more viable to listen to if you weren't a schtick.

I suppress what I really feel. Which is golden admiration for a GM that leaves his manager with 20 healthy players in the middle of a playoff hunt.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-18-2006, 05:13 PM
Schoenweis -- As noted in the trade thread, this one was simply a waste of money and not a talent loss issue.

Despite all his good moves, I would imagine a smart businessman like Castellini will be asking his GM at some point to start doing more background checks and explaining why he wasted $500K on 6-week rental fodder when the guy isn't apparently available to immediately help the team.

This is why I'm not too concerned about the Narron extension.

If this organization is willing to burn 500 K just to acquire a guy that has a weird last name, I don't think they'll have an issue eating some coin to dump Narron someday soon, if need be.

Cedric
08-18-2006, 05:14 PM
I suppress what I really feel. Which is golden admiration for a GM that leaves his manager with 20 healthy players in the middle of a playoff hunt.

You make a lot of good points but somehow I think they get avoided and the issue becomes you more than the point.

Blame that on the rest of Redszone if you want, but I think it's you just being a little over the top.

But I shall not hijack this thread further, apologies all.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:14 PM
FCB, I can normally see past your dramatics to the heart of what you are trying to say. But do you really think Krivsky is an imbecile?

You are certinally entitled to your opinion, but wow.

Go back and read my post; really read it. Not from top to bottom is Krivsky an imbecile, but in terms of roster management he is.

dabvu2498
08-18-2006, 05:15 PM
I suppress what I really feel. Which is golden admiration for a GM that leaves his manager with 20 healthy players in the middle of a playoff hunt.
I count 22. But hey, who's counting?

Chip R
08-18-2006, 05:17 PM
This crossed my mind as well, Chip. Though I guess the difference is, he knew about this one and went for him anyway.

He must see potential in him, or I'm sure he wouldn't have gone through with it. In addition, it must have affected the cost (cheaper?).


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I kind of get the feeling that even if he knew all about Majewski's bum arm he would have done the deal anyway.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:17 PM
I count 22. But hey, who's counting?

Certainly not Wayne.

And it sounds like it's 21 not 22, but again, name another GM who forces his Manager to work with 21 players.

It's an outrage. But worse, an embarrassment.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

I wouldn't go that far.

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:20 PM
You make a lot of good points but somehow I think they get avoided and the issue becomes you more than the point.

Blame that on the rest of Redszone if you want, but I think it's you just being a little over the top.

But I shall not hijack this thread further, apologies all.

That's a really good idea about not hijacking the thread.

I'll be sure to throw out some milquetoast platitudes over on the baseball side for you to digest.

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't go that far.

But he used big words...:D

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:22 PM
I wouldn't go that far.

When did DanO leave his manager with a 21-player roster? Again, I hope you're not miscontruing what I'm saying and thinking that I'm saying Wayne is worse than DanO overall. He's not; that's not what I'm saying. Just in the roster management dept.

Ltlabner
08-18-2006, 05:22 PM
But he used big words...:D


You mean like, "win probablity impact to the plus side" ? :)

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:23 PM
When did DanO leave his manager with a 21-player roster? Again, I hope you're not miscontruing what I'm saying and thinking that I'm saying Wayne is worse than DanO overall. He's not; that's not what I'm saying. Just in the roster management dept.

Dan O'Brien left the roster short all the time.

RANDY IN INDY
08-18-2006, 05:24 PM
You mean like, "win probablity impact to the plus side" ? :)

I'm going to make sure and use that one in front of my Little Leaguers.:laugh:

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:26 PM
Dan O'Brien left the roster short all the time.

Four players short?

I can understand one player short, or even two in a pinch, but four?

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:32 PM
Four players short?

I can understand one player short, or even two in a pinch, but four?

I'd have to do some searching....but the manager always seemed handcuffed for players

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 05:33 PM
Acquired for what?

A player to be named later IIRC.



I doubt the player to be named will be anything significant, because Toronto seemed anxious to dump the contract. However, in general terms, a PTBNL when a trade is done at this time of the year is sometimes significant, because it's used to get around the returning player clearing waivers.

As an example, Mark Lewis the guy that was plattooning at 3b on the 1995 team was a PTBNL for David Wells.. I know, not a world beater, but someone that was significant for the Reds at the time.

I agree that we probably didn't give up much for Schoweissis though.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 05:35 PM
I should clear up what I said above. Wayne Krivsky has done a fantastic job this season and if he doesn't win Executive of the Year there's something wrong.


No, I think Minyana of the Mets wins that award, hands down.

Maybe second place is the LA GM.

I don't think Wayne deserves an award for making us a .500 club. I'm not saying he stinks, but he doesn't deserve GM of the year.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 05:36 PM
the Toronto press release talked about "nagging leg injury" so I doubt they hid anything.


Well, Maj's injury was in the press too, that didn't stop the Reds from throwing a hissy fit. Let's hope that the Reds got the records faxed over and in "complete" state before they completed the deal. :laugh:

Falls City Beer
08-18-2006, 05:36 PM
No, I think Minyana of the Mets wins that award, hands down.

Maybe second place is the LA GM.

I don't think Wayne deserves an award for making us a .500 club. I'm not saying he stinks, but he doesn't deserve GM of the year.

No way he wins the award after "the trade." It's become a Homeric simile for "debacle."

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:36 PM
No, I think Minyana of the Mets wins that award, hands down.

Maybe second place is the LA GM.



Hard to argue that one....

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 05:37 PM
No way he wins the award after "the trade." It's become a Homeric simile for "debacle."

I agree. Wayne has made some nice moves, but "the trade" alone will sink him in the GM of the Year voting. The perception is that was a huge stinker. And that perception is justified.

Chip R
08-18-2006, 05:44 PM
Hard to argue that one....

Larry Benifest in FLA would like a word with you.

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 05:44 PM
Larry Benifest in FLA would like a word with you.

I was thinking him too.....but I think they'll have to make the playoffs to get it.

TheBigLebowski
08-18-2006, 05:51 PM
I think the Cody Ross deal deserves more chagrin that it receives.

Not only is Ross a useful player for whom we got nothing, the whole situation was just weird - we grabbed him from LA for a PTBNL and then shipped him off to FLA for a PTBNL within a week.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 06:06 PM
I would flag this as the worst WK decision of the year in my book.

I'm sure the Reds had to pick up Cormier's option in order to get him to waive his no trade clause.

I do agree with you though. If that was the price, I would've rather not made that trade. I wasn't in love with Gernamo, but with Claussen injured + Michalek in the rotation, I think I'd rather have Geranomo in the minors "just in case" than have Cormier.

That's another move that might cost us (if Michalek or whoever are a disaster in the #5 slot of the rotation). I'm not expecting a 20 game winner at #5, but we need someone that keeps us in games 1/2 the time.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 06:10 PM
. I wonder if Wayne had known every little detail about Majewski's injury if he still would have traded for him.

I believe Wayne said, yes, he would. He even said something to the affect that they were still glad they made the trade.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 06:16 PM
I wonder if Kahrl would feel differently if he/she knew about the "leg issue". No mention of it is made in the BP article.


This is the same author who a couple days ago blasted the Reds, right?


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50198&highlight=kahrl
Let's get this straight: the team needs three lefties in the pen beyond having a left-handed closer? And it's potentially going to make a journeyman like Michalak its fifth starter down the stretch?


Kahrl seems pretty fickle.

Cedric
08-18-2006, 06:43 PM
Larry Benifest in FLA would like a word with you.

Dave Dombrowski has this one wrapped up.

Johnny Footstool
08-18-2006, 06:47 PM
Four players short?

I can understand one player short, or even two in a pinch, but four?

If by "players" you mean "warm bodies," then you're right -- DanO usually had at least 23 warm bodies available on the roster.

When some of those "warm bodies" are Eric Milton, Dave Williams, and Ramon Ortiz, you'd be better off with empty roster spots.

oregonred
08-18-2006, 06:59 PM
Krivsky has absolutely lapped DanO in the mismanagement of roster department.

It's like on-the-job training for this imbecile.

I sure read this the first time through as calling Krivsky an "imbecile".

I agree with Cedric and agree that often your many good points lose credibility when you post over-the-top comments like that one outside the game threads (those are more reactionary so I dismiss those as pure comedy).

I must also need a remedial English refresher. To be less offensive and contain the insult towards its intended subject matter I would have written something like the following

"His roster management is imbecilic"

But then again what do I know...

BTW, lately I couldn't disagree much with that last phrasing.

Wheelhouse
08-18-2006, 07:54 PM
This should get Kremcheck fired.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 08:35 PM
Dave Dombrowski has this one wrapped up.

good point, I was thinking NL only.. I thought they gave an award for each league.. but maybe I'm wrong..

Team Clark
08-18-2006, 08:36 PM
Another injured player aquired.

It's getting hard to defend Mr. Krivsky.


I'm curious as to why the ire towards Krivsky on this? Schoe said it doesn't affect his pitching AND what if the Reds asked about it and the Blue Jays said everyhting was "OK". Players do not receive physicals before a trade.

REDREAD
08-18-2006, 08:37 PM
This should get Kremcheck fired.

If only it would... sadly, the Teflon Doc is never wrong. Although I guess there's hope with Cast running the show, that maybe things will change.

As I recall, Doc actually pays the Reds for the privedge of being their official doctor. I wonder when that contract is up.

Team Clark
08-18-2006, 08:40 PM
No, I think Minyana of the Mets wins that award, hands down.

Maybe second place is the LA GM.

I don't think Wayne deserves an award for making us a .500 club. I'm not saying he stinks, but he doesn't deserve GM of the year.


I would agree with that. Krivsky may win 3 years from now. He's laying his groundwork while maing patchwork. Minaya stuck to his plan, spent the money and improved the team significantly. Great job Omar. Even smarter for not taking the Reds post.:evil:

Betterread
08-18-2006, 11:34 PM
I am...quoting Brant from the movie, when the other Lebowski is all cheesed off that the kidnappers did not receive the money, and the plane has crashed into the (expletive) mountain!!

"This is our concern, Dude."
While I approve of your admiration of TBL, the more relevant quote is "the dude abides".
FYI - I happen to know the "real" Lebowski, and the movie cannot even come close to capturing the character of this HS classmate of the Coen brothers. Truth is stranger than fiction. Despite that, I love the movie - it is one of my favorites.