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View Full Version : Lohse best stuff on the Red's staff??



jesusfan
08-18-2006, 11:40 AM
I really like Lohse, he's always had great stuff, hopefully he's finally putting it all together after the wake-up call!
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060818/SPT05/608180321/1035


"He's got some good stuff," said Reds catcher David Ross. "To me, it's some of the best stuff in our rotation. Since he's been here, he's been lights-out. He's a guy that can give you a strikeout when you need it and give you a groundball when you need it. I like that as a catcher, to have those two options. ... I like the way he works. In and out, cutters, changeups, it's good"

flyer85
08-18-2006, 11:43 AM
His stuff has never been in question. He is one of those pitchers that if he ever figures it out ...

Cicero
08-18-2006, 11:43 AM
If Arroyo is finally out of his rough patch we could be ina good position for the stretch run, Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton, Ramirez?

RedsManRick
08-18-2006, 11:49 AM
Doesn't anybody have the inside scoop on his makeup? He's always stuck me as a guy who tried too hard to be good. That is, he tried to be perfect and it would come back and bite him.

I remember when he first came up with the Twins he seemed to rely on his stuff to get guys out. He'd "pitch to contact" if you will, and let guys get themselves out. It's like he got a big head thought and tried to take it to the next level by doing it all himself. He'd fall behind in the count trying to make that perfect pitch, then was forced to come back over the plate and would get killed. As he got hit, he got more wary of throwing early strikes and got caught in a bad cycle.

Anyways, maybe I'm way off base, but I'm curious if we're simply seeing the effect of no DH and a lack of familiarity or if there has been a change in his approach.

Cicero
08-18-2006, 11:51 AM
Doesn't anybody have the inside scoop on his makeup? He's always stuck me as a guy who tried too hard to be good. That is, he tried to be perfect and it would come back and bite him.

I remember when he first came up with the Twins he seemed to rely on his stuff to get guys out. He'd "pitch to contact" if you will, and let guys get themselves out. It's like he got a big head thought and tried to take it to the next level by doing it all himself. He'd fall behind in the count trying to make that perfect pitch, then was forced to come back over the plate and would get killed. As he got hit, he got more wary of throwing early strikes and got caught in a bad cycle.

Anyways, maybe I'm way off base, but I'm curious if we're simply seeing the effect of no DH and a lack of familiarity or if there has been a change in his approach.


I am not familiar enough with him to answer your question, but as far as conjecture goes it seems like a good guess.

jesusfan
08-18-2006, 11:52 AM
Either way... Harang, Arroyo, Milton, Lohse, and Franklin/Michalak/Ramirez looks alot better than what we had in the past....

Cicero
08-18-2006, 11:54 AM
Either way... Harang, Arroyo, Milton, Lohse, and Franklin/Michalak/Ramirez looks alot better than what we had in the past....

Agreed, we have the makings of a Major League pitching staff on our hands. When was the last time you could say that with a straight face?

KalDanielsfan
08-18-2006, 11:55 AM
Agreed, we have the makings of a Major League pitching staff on our hands. When was the last time you could say that with a straight face?

lol honestly? The Days of Rijo, Danny Jackson, Browning, Jack Armstrong..

so.. 16 years?

Cicero
08-18-2006, 12:01 PM
lol honestly? The Days of Rijo, Danny Jackson, Browning, Jack Armstrong..

so.. 16 years?

Wow, that is really sad that you have to go back that far. That was a damn good staff though. Browning was my personal favorite. I still cringe when I think about the broken arm. The way he collapsed I thought he had a heart attack or something.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:03 PM
Doesn't anybody have the inside scoop on his makeup? supposedly there are issues about that. I guess we will see when some adversity strikes. That was the issue in Minnesota, he tended to be overly emotional on the mound at times and lose his focus.

SteelSD
08-18-2006, 12:13 PM
Doesn't anybody have the inside scoop on his makeup? He's always stuck me as a guy who tried too hard to be good. That is, he tried to be perfect and it would come back and bite him.

I remember when he first came up with the Twins he seemed to rely on his stuff to get guys out. He'd "pitch to contact" if you will, and let guys get themselves out. It's like he got a big head thought and tried to take it to the next level by doing it all himself. He'd fall behind in the count trying to make that perfect pitch, then was forced to come back over the plate and would get killed. As he got hit, he got more wary of throwing early strikes and got caught in a bad cycle.

Anyways, maybe I'm way off base, but I'm curious if we're simply seeing the effect of no DH and a lack of familiarity or if there has been a change in his approach.

Lohse earned himself the reputation of a whiner with the Twins. It's probably not as bad as it was positioned in the media around these parts, but it was bad enough that the Twins wanted to rid themselves of a decent, albeit dramatically inconsistent, arm in the middle of a pennant race. And while he was performing well in the bullpen to boot.

http://www.topix.net/content/kri/1319438167330045644938865124220448830730

I've always thought of Lohse as being a RH version of Eric Milton. He's got some good stuff and, when he's on, can be of use. But he's also been extremely prone to consistent meltdowns; and in pretty much any way a "meltdown" can occur. Dented his manager's door with a bat after a poor outing. Called out a player on the field while walking off the mound during a game. Telling anyone and everyone that he's a starter and should be starting- even if no one's asking him the question. I haven't yet met a Twins fan (and I know way too many) who isn't glad to be rid of him.

That being said, maybe he'll grow up at some point. That'd be nice, but his attitude is only half the problem. The poor command is the other half.

Doc. Scott
08-18-2006, 12:20 PM
I've always thought of Lohse as being a RH version of Eric Milton. He's got some good stuff and, when he's on, can be of use. But he's also been extremely prone to consistent meltdowns; and in pretty much any way a "meltdown" can occur. Dented his manager's door with a bat after a poor outing. Called out a player on the field while walking off the mound during a game. Telling anyone and everyone that he's a starter and should be starting- even if no one's asking him the question. I haven't yet met a Twins fan (and I know way too many) who isn't glad to be rid of him.

That being said, maybe he'll grow up at some point. That'd be nice, but his attitude is only half the problem. The poor command is the other half.

I wouldn't characterize Eric Milton, Reds' version, as having "good stuff" or being prone to meltdowns of the emotional variety.

Milton's got mediocre-to-average stuff that requires him to be fine with his location and selection. When it's not fine, he gets meltdowns of the not-enough-mustard-in-the-bottle sort.

Milton actually strikes me as a guy who's just fine in the intangibles/makeup department. Sometimes he's just a brave guy on a horse with a sword against the advancing blitzkrieg.

Lohse, on the other hand, can dial it up to 95. Milton would need Rusty Wallace to get to that point.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:23 PM
Milton actually strikes me as a guy who's just fine in the intangibles/makeup department. Sometimes he's just a brave guy on a horse with a sword against the advancing blitzkrieg. :laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
08-18-2006, 12:48 PM
It wouldn't be the first time a guy has left an organization, found himself and profited with new surroundings. I am optimistic about Lohse.

princeton
08-18-2006, 12:50 PM
care to pay him $5mill next year?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:53 PM
care to pay him $5mill next year?is that the $64,000 question?

RANDY IN INDY
08-18-2006, 12:59 PM
care to pay him $5mill next year?

As opposed to seeing some of the other crap the Reds have run out there? Yeah, I would gamble on Lohse's stuff.

princeton
08-18-2006, 01:00 PM
on the night of the trade, I figured that the plan was similar to the Twins' plan-- to nontender the guy at the end of the year. But later I found out that we gave Cormier, whom we didn't even seem to need, $2.5mill. So why not pay the kind of pitcher that you do need (power righty) double that? At least I figure that's the Reds' intent, and Lohse's performance makes that even easier.

the A baller doesn't seem like such a loss now, does he?

flyer85
08-18-2006, 01:01 PM
As opposed to seeing some of the other crap the Reds have run out there? Yeah, I would gamble on Lohse's stuff.the one year commitments don't scare me too much. Free agent starters and the deals the post 2004 class got, now that scares me.

SteelSD
08-18-2006, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't characterize Eric Milton, Reds' version, as having "good stuff" or being prone to meltdowns of the emotional variety.

Milton's got mediocre-to-average stuff that requires him to be fine with his location and selection. When it's not fine, he gets meltdowns of the not-enough-mustard-in-the-bottle sort.

Milton actually strikes me as a guy who's just fine in the intangibles/makeup department. Sometimes he's just a brave guy on a horse with a sword against the advancing blitzkrieg.

Lohse, on the other hand, can dial it up to 95. Milton would need Rusty Wallace to get to that point.

Sorry for the confusion, Doc. I should have been more clear that the Eric Milton I was speaking of was the pre-knee blowout "Twins" version. That Eric Milton had some good stuff but, like Lohse, his command simply vanished at times. You just didn't know when he was going to blow up and, when he did, it was too quick for the manager to do anything about it. That's really the only comparison I'm making with Lohse.

Always Red
08-18-2006, 01:10 PM
Well, Lohse has enough command right now- 22K's and only 2 walks thus far. And his stuff is as good as any on this staff.

And he's got a certain "edge" to him as well- he could have been a junior "Nasty Boy" back in the day.

I like him well enough as a starter right now, but I might like him even better as a closer.

SultanOfSwing
08-18-2006, 01:11 PM
the one year commitments don't scare me too much.

I concur exactly. 1-year @ $5-mill is not much for even a good #4-5. Loshe could easily turn into our #2 (even if Arroyo keeps this up). If we were to conjecture that somehow he completely fails or we have a better option (I don't believe either will occur), he still has very good trade value. He would in fact have better value than what we gave for him. Either way we win.

RANDY IN INDY
08-18-2006, 01:16 PM
Maybe Lohse just had everything backwards. You have to actually put up good numbers before you can start acting like a horse's behind. Then you are labeled affectionately as a "competitor." Maybe he'll get it right this time.

cincy jacket
08-18-2006, 01:49 PM
care to pay him $5mill next year?

If we can pawn Larue off on someone else I think of it as even salary wise and I would most certainly rather pay 5 million to Lohse than Larue. I was worried about Lohse from what I had read about him before he got here but pure STUFF wise I would say it has to be between him and Bray as to who has the best stuff on the team.

oregonred
08-18-2006, 01:58 PM
I
Milton actually strikes me as a guy who's just fine in the intangibles/makeup department. Sometimes he's just a brave guy on a horse with a sword against the advancing blitzkrieg.

Lohse, on the other hand, can dial it up to 95. Milton would need Rusty Wallace to get to that point.

That's just a great post and one of the best quotes I've seen in a long time :beerme:

The Reds have another 6-weeks to figure out if they want to tender him. Then you can simply go on a one year deal for '07.

Unless he's lights out from here until October, I'm assuming with his overall '06 numbers he won't make more than the $3.9M from this season -- and possibly less although we know that the arbitration racket is basically a one way tocket upward.

Doc. Scott
08-18-2006, 02:05 PM
Sorry for the confusion, Doc. I should have been more clear that the Eric Milton I was speaking of was the pre-knee blowout "Twins" version. That Eric Milton had some good stuff but, like Lohse, his command simply vanished at times. You just didn't know when he was going to blow up and, when he did, it was too quick for the manager to do anything about it. That's really the only comparison I'm making with Lohse.

Fair enough. I'd still say the pre-knee Milton (thanks for the pun) possessed less-than-blowaway stuff, but he was a first-round pick on advanced command and a high level of athleticism (still evident today in his good fielding and occasional contributions at the plate). This has gone up the hill and started heading back down the other side, leaving us with the Eric we know and love.

The knee problems certainly cut into his game and may have robbed him of a chance at a season under 4.00, but if he'd had comparable problems in the shoulder or elbow he'd be hanging with Dante and Randal right now.

oregonred
08-18-2006, 02:21 PM
We're owed one in our favor after the Dempster trade and how that blew up in 2003. They seem like similar type pitchers with + stuff, although Ryan had much more early success in Florida. Sometimes those kind of guys need to bounce around to find some sucess. One thing is for sure, MLB proven, younger guys with plus stuff is a rare commodity with the Reds right now.

An infusion of plus stuff into the Reds staff is a good thing. Especially this one with a 6-week option and the limited liability of an additional one-year tender if Krivsky likes what he sees on the field. As far as I know Lohse has never had an injury history -- another plus.

BrooklynRedz
08-18-2006, 02:38 PM
Lohse earned himself the reputation of a whiner with the Twins. It's probably not as bad as it was positioned in the media around these parts, but it was bad enough that the Twins wanted to rid themselves of a decent, albeit dramatically inconsistent, arm in the middle of a pennant race. And while he was performing well in the bullpen to boot.

http://www.topix.net/content/kri/1319438167330045644938865124220448830730

I've always thought of Lohse as being a RH version of Eric Milton. He's got some good stuff and, when he's on, can be of use. But he's also been extremely prone to consistent meltdowns; and in pretty much any way a "meltdown" can occur. Dented his manager's door with a bat after a poor outing. Called out a player on the field while walking off the mound during a game. Telling anyone and everyone that he's a starter and should be starting- even if no one's asking him the question. I haven't yet met a Twins fan (and I know way too many) who isn't glad to be rid of him.

That being said, maybe he'll grow up at some point. That'd be nice, but his attitude is only half the problem. The poor command is the other half.

Interesting that you'd hear much the same from Twins personnel last year when discussing Morneau.

Matt700wlw
08-18-2006, 02:39 PM
If Arroyo is finally out of his rough patch we could be ina good position for the stretch run, Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Milton, Ramirez?

Bailey.


Sorry....had to :D

dabvu2498
08-18-2006, 02:48 PM
Interesting that you'd hear much the same from Twins personnel last year when discussing Morneau.
ignore

Superdude
08-18-2006, 08:33 PM
Dented his manager's door with a bat after a poor outing.

That one is mildly impressive in my opinion. :D

Redeye fly
08-19-2006, 12:44 AM
As opposed to seeing some of the other crap the Reds have run out there? Yeah, I would gamble on Lohse's stuff.
Luke Hudson has a great arm too. So did Brad Pennington.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2006, 12:49 AM
Lohse for his career has never struck anybody out with his "stuff." If you have "stuff" and you aren't K-ing people, forget it; I'm not interested at all.

Give me Brett Tomko.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2006, 01:01 AM
Bailey.


Sorry....had to :D

I used to be firmly in the "bring up Bailey" camp, but now that the team has officially started to sink in the mire, I say wait. He'll retain his value over the winter.

RANDY IN INDY
08-19-2006, 01:29 PM
Luke Hudson has a great arm too. So did Brad Pennington.

Lohse is more polished than either of those guys.

RANDY IN INDY
08-19-2006, 01:30 PM
Lohse for his career has never struck anybody out with his "stuff." If you have "stuff" and you aren't K-ing people, forget it; I'm not interested at all.

Give me Brett Tomko.

Any time. He's yours.

KySteveH
08-19-2006, 08:25 PM
It wouldn't be the first time a guy has left an organization, found himself and profited with new surroundings. I am optimistic about Lohse.
Brandon Phillips says hi

Maldez
08-20-2006, 11:35 AM
The pick-up of Lohse could end up being another of those Wayne Krivsky strokes of genius.

TC81190
08-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Sorry for the confusion, Doc. I should have been more clear that the Eric Milton I was speaking of was the pre-knee blowout "Twins" version. That Eric Milton had some good stuff but, like Lohse, his command simply vanished at times. You just didn't know when he was going to blow up and, when he did, it was too quick for the manager to do anything about it. That's really the only comparison I'm making with Lohse.

Milton was on early in the year for a few starts, when he was driving his knee to the plate, but now...

Tom Lawless Fan
08-20-2006, 04:06 PM
I dont think Loose is good enough to start for us he doesn't spell his name the right way either.

Falls City Beer
08-20-2006, 04:16 PM
I dont think Loose is good enough to start for us he doesn't spell his name the right way either.

Dragged out from the mothballs.....

Spitball
08-20-2006, 06:56 PM
It wouldn't be the first time a guy has left an organization, found himself and profited with new surroundings. I am optimistic about Lohse.

How about another former Twin, David Ortiz. Hmmm... maybe they'll be saying David Ortiz's name in the same breath with Kyle Lohse. :)

Rocket_Fuel
08-20-2006, 08:43 PM
lol honestly? The Days of Rijo, Danny Jackson, Browning, Jack Armstrong..

so.. 16 years?

I don't know, the 1994, 1995 and 1999 staffs weren't bad.

Rocket_Fuel
08-20-2006, 08:45 PM
Lohse for his career has never struck anybody out with his "stuff." If you have "stuff" and you aren't K-ing people, forget it; I'm not interested at all.

Give me Brett Tomko.

Last I checked he was striking out people with his stuff for the Reds. Screw Tomko.

Rocket_Fuel
08-20-2006, 08:47 PM
It wouldn't be the first time a guy has left an organization, found himself and profited with new surroundings. I am optimistic about Lohse.

Aaron Harang come on down!