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View Full Version : Failure to find 4th and 5th starters will keep us from playoffs



ChatterRed
08-18-2006, 11:19 PM
For all the good that Krivsky did this year, he was unable to solidify the 4th and 5th starter spots. And the refusal to bring up Homer Bailey for that role..........will cost us a playoff berth.

Oh well. There's always next year. :bang:

Razor Shines
08-18-2006, 11:25 PM
For all the good that Krivsky did this year, he was unable to solidify the 4th and 5th starter spots. And the refusal to bring up Homer Bailey for that role..........will cost us a playoff berth.

Oh well. There's always next year. :bang:
I don't think bringing up a guy that can only throw "4 out of 18 curve balls for strikes" (I believe that's what was posted) is going to be the difference in making or not making the playoffs this year. I'd be all for bringing up Homer if he was ready but by most accounts he is not.

KoryMac5
08-18-2006, 11:27 PM
For all the good that Krivsky did this year, he was unable to solidify the 4th and 5th starter spots. And the refusal to bring up Homer Bailey for that role..........will cost us a playoff berth.

Oh well. There's always next year. :bang:

Harang
Arroyo
Milton
Lohse those are 4 starters that with the division being as weak as it is can get us to the playoffs. We definitely need a guy who can compete for the fifth spot and hopefully the lizard can learn a thing or two down in AAA. Bailey is definitely not the answer at this time in his career. Heck we are still in the thick of this thing.

Always Red
08-18-2006, 11:31 PM
Lately it's been the lack of hitting, more than anything else, that is hurting this ball club.

In three of the last four games the Reds have scored 0, 1 and 3 runs.

All losses. Even excellent starting pitching will not overcome that.

TOBTTReds
08-18-2006, 11:31 PM
Our offense isn't exactly helping us out lately.

RedsFanatic
08-18-2006, 11:50 PM
Dunn has fallen into a major funk right as Griff was coming out of his. Combine that with Phillips and Ross not hitting and you've got a problem.

Does anyone else think that it looks like Edwin is going for jacks alot more now? Usually they just happen, but he seems to be popping balls up and rolling over grounders more.

goreds2
08-18-2006, 11:51 PM
I say bring up Homer. The lift this guy would give the team would be out of this world. I guess I am being impatient but you never know how many more chances the next few years that we will have a shot at the post season. 11 years is too long not being in the playoffs. :confused:

TOBTTReds
08-18-2006, 11:58 PM
Does anyone else think that it looks like Edwin is going for jacks alot more now? Usually they just happen, but he seems to be popping balls up and rolling over grounders more.

I was at the game today and didn't get a good look, but I do think he is trying to yank em. The one good sign is that he did for one. Usually when guys do that, they don't hit one. Rolling over grounders wouldn't be the result of trying to jack one, maybe topping the ball. Rolling one up would be the result of the top hand coming through too early and having the bat roll over top the ball (maybe you really didn't mean that though).

Sadly, the one pitch I missed all night was because a kid near me had to get through and I didn't realize, so I looked to my right, and BOOM, EdE goes yard! Atleast he did.

Always Red
08-19-2006, 12:05 AM
I say bring up Homer. The lift this guy would give the team would be out of this world. I guess I am being impatient but you never know how many more chances the next few years that we will have a shot at the post season. 11 years is too long not being in the playoffs. :confused:
I have not read or heard one single baseball expert say that Homer is ready for the major leagues yet.

In fact, all of them say that he is not yet ready.

They're not keeping him down there to punish him or keep a championship from us.

He simply is not ready; he's a kid who needs seasoning and to learn how to pitch.

How would he lift this team? By bursting the bubble when he gets hit or has no command?

Can he hit? Because that's what this team needs right now.

keeganbrick
08-19-2006, 12:12 AM
It is only our 5th starter that is giving us problems at the moment. Bailey is def not going to be brought up as a starter now with his pitch count this year, possibly bullpen. But we still need to try to address our #5 starter and I dont mean throw Franklin out there.

TOBTTReds
08-19-2006, 12:19 AM
It is only our 5th starter that is giving us problems at the moment. Bailey is def not going to be brought up as a starter now with his pitch count this year, possibly bullpen. But we still need to try to address our #5 starter and I dont mean throw Franklin out there.

It sounds like he is going to be shut down for the season soon. If not, then I'm guessing he comes up for some BP action.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2006, 12:26 AM
I would think you'd have to bring Bailey up for some BP action in September with all the injuries. Especially if they end up moving Franklin to the rotation.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2006, 12:35 AM
For all the good that Krivsky did this year, he was unable to solidify the 4th and 5th starter spots. And the refusal to bring up Homer Bailey for that role..........will cost us a playoff berth.

Oh well. There's always next year. :bang:

Guys like M2 and me have been ringing this bell all season.

It's not the bullpen, stupid.

It's the starters.

oregonred
08-19-2006, 03:19 AM
Guys like M2 and me have been ringing this bell all season.

It's not the bullpen, stupid.

It's the starters.

It's both. True I'd prefer the rotation fixed over pen, but from what we've seen in the last decade beggars can't be choosers...

ChatterRed
08-19-2006, 10:52 AM
You guys give Lohse way too much credit. He's an American League pitcher that's having success because National League hitters had yet to see him. Do you really think his nearly 7.00 era was a fluke?

We have 3 legit starters in Arroyo, Harang and Milton. Lohse will start getting tagged again soon. Count on it.

Sure, the hitting has been suspect lately...........but we don't have legit 4th and 5th starters.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2006, 10:56 AM
.but we don't have legit 4th and 5th starters.

What's really killing this team is the lack of a true #1 starter.

redhawkfish
08-19-2006, 11:02 AM
The entire national league wild card contenders are near .500 W%. No one seems to have even average 4th and fifth starters, so we are not alone.

ChatterRed
08-19-2006, 11:04 AM
What's really killing this team is the lack of a true #1 starter.

If I change gears and take a glass half full approach.........it's amazing that the Reds are even in this thing.

IslandRed
08-19-2006, 11:13 AM
Our #5 starters stink, but if there's a team in the National League that has five good starters I'm not aware of it. Hardly anyone does. Pitching's scarce. Even the Yankees and Red Sox have spent long periods throwing "stuff" at the wall and hoping it'll stick... but I think I'm with FCB here, if we had another guy up front we wouldn't be worrying so much about the back.

RedFanAlways1966
08-19-2006, 01:27 PM
What's really killing this team is the lack of a true #1 starter.

Which leads me to ask...

(1) How many of these are there in Major League Baseball? Are there lots of them?
(2) Do more than 50% of ML teams have one of these?
(3) How many are there in the NL Central (Carpenter? Clemens? Oswalt?)?
(4) How many of them are in small markets?
(5) How many of them were developed by their current team's minor league system?
(6) How much salary does one of these get?
(7) Do you have to trade away starting-8 types to get one?

:confused:

keeganbrick
08-19-2006, 02:13 PM
You guys give Lohse way too much credit. He's an American League pitcher that's having success because National League hitters had yet to see him. Do you really think his nearly 7.00 era was a fluke?

We have 3 legit starters in Arroyo, Harang and Milton. Lohse will start getting tagged again soon. Count on it.

Sure, the hitting has been suspect lately...........but we don't have legit 4th and 5th starters.
A lot of pitchers with a 7.00ERA dont have near the stuff Lohse has. Yes, switching leagues is benefiting him but he had a lot of problems going on in Minn and I dont think he has to deal with that here. I say his ERA stays below 3.30 as a Red for the rest of the year.

ChatterRed
08-19-2006, 02:50 PM
If your prediction ends up being correct.........then give Krivsky more props for another risk that panned out.

redsupport
08-19-2006, 02:54 PM
should be 3-0 save for the incredible ineptness of the bullpen

RedFanAlways1966
08-19-2006, 03:17 PM
should be 3-0 save for the incredible ineptness of the bullpen

Perhaps. But if you want to blame the bullpen for allowing 1 run, when the REDS team had a total of 3 hits in 9 innings (Jeff Weaver, UGH), then feel free. The other two games I will definitely fault the bullpen!

BTW... in Lohse's three starts the REDS have a grand total of 17 hits. Those three games had the REDS batting in 32 innings (one was a 14-inn. game). 17 hits in 32 innings... ouch!

captain11
08-19-2006, 10:45 PM
Homer could help

JTMONEY
08-19-2006, 10:47 PM
Homer could help
heck yeah he could....but narron just cant seem to figure it out..same old narron:bang:

terminator
08-20-2006, 12:20 AM
The Mets (best team in the league, right?) are running our cast-off Dave Williams out there. Everyone has starting pitching issues.

terminator
08-20-2006, 12:22 AM
heck yeah he could....but narron just cant seem to figure it out..same old narron:bang:
I don't think Homer would help, but anyway, that's not a valid criticism of Narron. It is Krivsky keeping him down on the farm. Haven't you heard Narron practically begging Krivsky for Homer all year?

Ltlabner
08-20-2006, 07:04 AM
heck yeah he could....but narron just cant seem to figure it out..same old narron:bang:

It's not Narrons decision to make.

Matt700wlw
08-20-2006, 11:57 AM
Harang
Bailey is definitely not the answer at this time in his career.

We don't know that...and we won't know that this season.

As much as I want to see this kid up here, it's probably the right decision not bringing him up.

My heart and head battle on this debate :)

ThatPitchIsDunn
08-20-2006, 12:03 PM
One would hope we could at least learn from the mistakes we made bringing Wags up too quickly a few years back. No sense in having him come up, do awesome in his first start b/c no one's seen him, then just get shelled as big leaguers see him again. Then we end up putting him in the bullpen, he becomes a whatever middle reliever and we all rehash what "could have been" for the next 5-7 years.

It's hard to do when we're in the middle of a postseason race for the first time in a while, but patience is the key here. Get that breaking ball over for strikes Homer; once you do, you're gonna be a star for years to come for our boys in Cincy.

oregonred
08-21-2006, 02:26 PM
What's really killing this team is the lack of a true #1 starter.

Aaron Harang says hi. He's also probably our best since Jose Rijo and he's much more durable. For the first time in at least a decade we've got a staff anchor.

VR
08-21-2006, 02:33 PM
Aaron Harang says hi. He's also probably our best since Jose Rijo and he's much more durable. For the first time in at least a decade we've got a staff anchor.

It's scary that he's easily in the top 10 of starters this year.....doing everything a #1 starter is asked to do...right here in front of us.

Compare him to any starter acquired in the last several years in the majors, and you'll find that better performers are almost non-existant. There are certainly some that have been developed within systems, but acquired? Hardly.

MaineRed
08-21-2006, 02:41 PM
Guys like M2 and me have been ringing this bell all season.

It's not the bullpen, stupid.

It's the starters.

You jump on WK for throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what will stick.

You seem to do the same thing with your negativity.

Then when your right you want to, "keep score."

If WK does what you say he does, your the WK of posting.

registerthis
08-21-2006, 02:48 PM
Which leads me to ask...

(1) How many of these are there in Major League Baseball? Are there lots of them?
(2) Do more than 50% of ML teams have one of these?
(3) How many are there in the NL Central (Carpenter? Clemens? Oswalt?)?
(4) How many of them are in small markets?
(5) How many of them were developed by their current team's minor league system?
(6) How much salary does one of these get?
(7) Do you have to trade away starting-8 types to get one?

:confused:

The only truly relevant question to be asking is "does our competition have them?" We don't compete against teams from similar market sizes, financial situations or farm systems, so how one acquires a true ace is a question more appropriately asked during the offseason, not now.

The fact of the matter is many of the teams competing against the Reds certainly DO have #1 starters--Webb, Carpenter, Clemens and Martinez from the NL would all qualify. can the Reds compete against those teams despite lacking a true ace? They certainly could, but it also makes things more difficult. Smaller market teams that are successful--Florida, Minnesota and Oakland, for example--generally have an "ace" pitcher. This isn't the time for the Reds to be crying foul over baseball's economic injustices, or to cry incompetence over their inability to draft and retain a #1 starter through their farm system--they need to figure out how they're going to overcome the disadvantage they're inevitably at when playing an Arizona or New York in a short playoff series.

registerthis
08-21-2006, 02:49 PM
Aaron Harang says hi. He's also probably our best since Jose Rijo and he's much more durable. For the first time in at least a decade we've got a staff anchor.

He's good, but he's not Webb, Carpenter, Martinez or Clemens-caliber. Harang would be a #2 on most other playoff-challenging cluubs.

registerthis
08-21-2006, 02:51 PM
Homer could help

...or Homer could come up and get shelled.

Any help that Bailey brings this season would be a bonus as far as I'm concerned--I'm certainly not counting on any.

Handofdeath
08-21-2006, 04:47 PM
What's really killing this team is the lack of a true #1 starter.

Harang is tied for the league lead in wins right now and is second in K's. Sounds like a #1 starter to me.

registerthis
08-21-2006, 04:54 PM
Harang is tied for the league lead in wins right now and is second in K's. Sounds like a #1 starter to me.

Wins are meaningless. Otherwise, Arroyo would have at least 15 of them now were it not for repeated collapses by the bullpen.

Harang's been great with K's, but he allows too many baserunners and too many runs to be considered a true #1 starter. Yes, he's the #1 guy on the Reds, but that doesn't make him an ace.

VR
08-21-2006, 05:04 PM
Harang is tied for the league lead in wins right now and is second in K's. Sounds like a #1 starter to me.

How bout leading the majors in shutouts and complete games?

Maybe we'd like him more if he made 12M a year like all the other aces?

membengal
08-21-2006, 05:05 PM
I think he found a decent fourth starter in Lohse. Better than decent, actually.

registerthis
08-21-2006, 05:54 PM
I think he found a decent fourth starter in Lohse. Better than decent, actually.

I'm not sold on Lohse yet. He's pitched magnificently his first three starts than us, but Arroyo actually pitched better during stretches of his first two months with the team. I hope Lohse continues doing what he's been doing, but the fact that's he's doing it with a K/9 of 10.24 tell sme that's not going to continue.

Falls City Beer
08-21-2006, 06:36 PM
Harang is tied for the league lead in wins right now and is second in K's. Sounds like a #1 starter to me.

Frankly, he's no Chris Carpenter or Brandon Webb.

He's a very high 2 pitcher. Check his OPS Against. (Though, to be fair, if Jerry knew when to remove him from a game, his numbers would be even better).