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Reds4Life
08-28-2006, 04:45 PM
Hamilton County Prosecutor Joseph Deters, Sheriff Simon Leis, Jr and Clermont County Prosecutor Donald White held a news conference at 3:00 pm to announce the arrest of Marcus Fiesel's foster parents. They are charged with involuntary manslaughter, but more serious charges are expected.

Deters says David and Liz Carroll placed Marcus in a closet for two days, before going to a family reunion in Williamsburg, Kentucky August 4. When they returned, he was dead. David is accused of burning the boy's body in Brown County.

The news conferences held by the couple were allegedly part of their cover-up.

The Clermont County Children's Services has taken charge of the Carroll's four children.

Local 12 has the news conference covered, and will share the latest new information as we learn more

If there was ever a case for lethal injection, this is it.

Ltlabner
08-28-2006, 04:54 PM
That makes me irrate.

With all the people who can't have children or have lost one, it makes my blood run cold that people would purposley do something like this to an innocent child they didn't have to have/be in charge of (or obviously want). If you can't handle to child, give him back to the foster care system. By "blood runs cold" I mean I'd be able to treat them as they treated the child in their care, without much thought, if given the chance. Obviously I wouldn't throw my life away to do this, but the thought is tempting when you hear of this evil in the world.

I don't want to rush to judgement, but based on how everything has unfolded in this case it's not hard to imagine something like this happening.

No punishment is severe enough IMO.

Johnny Footstool
08-28-2006, 04:56 PM
Are there any background checks or psychological profiles required for potential foster parents?

oneupper
08-28-2006, 04:59 PM
If there was ever a case for lethal injection, this is it.

Won't get that for involuntary manslaughter. 8-12 or something like that.
(don't know state laws and my legal experience comes from many episodes of "Law and Order" :) ).

oneupper
08-28-2006, 05:00 PM
Are there any background checks or psychological profiles required for potential foster parents?

I think there is a nationwide shortage of foster homes.

Reds4Life
08-28-2006, 05:02 PM
Won't get that for involuntary manslaughter. 8-12 or something like that.
(don't know state laws and my legal experience comes from many episodes of "Law and Order" :) ).

Charges are going to be upgraded to murder.

flyer85
08-28-2006, 05:03 PM
????

Placing a kid in a closet for two days. (actually I'm not buying that story. I would bet he was given a beating that got too intense)

:(

People do stuff to kids they wouldn't do to their dog.

oneupper
08-28-2006, 08:18 PM
Charges are going to be upgraded to murder.

Wow. Probably second degree, though. Hard to prove premeditation.
25 to Life in Ohio?

Reds4Life
08-28-2006, 08:27 PM
Wow. Probably second degree, though. Hard to prove premeditation.
25 to Life in Ohio?

They'll be hit with a lot more charges. They burned the kids body on August 8th and waited 10 days to report him missing so they could come up with a story.

I'd say they are looking at life, minimum. I hope they like Lucasville.

UKFlounder
08-28-2006, 08:55 PM
No punishment is enough for them, though it would be nice if they could receive just what they had given.

What a pathetic, awful, disgusting crime. Just sickening

redsfanmia
08-28-2006, 08:59 PM
What an awful story, there is a special place in hell for people like this.

TeamMorris
08-28-2006, 10:05 PM
This makes me sooooo sick!! When I heard it I wanted to throw up! What is wrong with people!!!

TeamBoone
08-28-2006, 11:14 PM
This is soooo disgusting that it makes me shake just thinking about it.

Being a foster parent is choice... they didn't have to do it. I hope someone is a whole lot kinder to their children while they rot in prison than they were to that unfortunate little boy.

Just sickening.

Team Clark
08-28-2006, 11:18 PM
People do stuff to kids they wouldn't do to their dog.


Hamilton County prosecutor Joe Deters agrees (so do I):
"The bottom line is you wouldn't treat a dog like this," Deters said. "They never should have had a child like this in their custody."

Matt700wlw
08-28-2006, 11:18 PM
I was afraid of this.

Let's lock them in a closet and burn them....except burn them alive.

Team Clark
08-28-2006, 11:20 PM
This is soooo disgusting that it makes me shake just thinking about it.

Being a foster parent is choice... they didn't have to do it. I hope someone is a whole lot kinder to their children while they rot in prison than they were to that unfortunate little boy.

Just sickening.

Scum like those two backwoods Hillbillies become Foster Parents for the Money, not for love of children.

I would personally volunteer to be the executioner for these two. What irks me more than anything is the NUMBER of family members who were involved or had direct knowledge of this murder. Sick.

Reds Freak
08-29-2006, 01:51 AM
Wow, unbelievable. First of all, what lowlifes. Second of all, what idiots. These "people" send the whole city on a search for this little boy and obviously everyone comes up empty handed. They think everyone is just going to give up and forget about him after a few days?

OldRightHander
08-29-2006, 01:47 PM
My wife and I are going through the process of becoming foster parents, mostly becaues we haven't been able to conceive and we both have a big soft spot for kids who have had it rough. The money isn't really enough of a motivation to convince me to open up my home and go through the inconvenience of dealing with the issues a lot of these kids have. If you're only doing it for the money, you probably shouldn't be doing it at all.

I can't speak for the private agencies that these people were licensed through. We are doing everything through Hamilton County and there is a pretty extensive process of classroom training, criminal background checks, and personality profiling that the county does. From what I heard, this other agency wasn't so thorough. It's one thing if a foster parent passes all the background checks and then goes bad, but if an agency is being lax and letting scumbags slip through the cracks, they need to be held accountable.

LoganBuck
08-29-2006, 02:42 PM
I am so sickened by this I can't even begin to state how much. The kid had special needs so instead of helping him, the treat him like a mop. The kid couldn't speak for himself, and the question arises that if they felt it was ok to put him in a closet for their trip, how much time was he spending locked in there? Cruel and unusual punishment would be exactly what they deserve, after having done this to an innocent child.

I have a cousin who is a high functioning autistic. When he was young he was very difficult to care for. He is now grown and while having some social deficiencies, is otherwise a normal person. I doubt he will ever marry, but is great with kids. He is an accomplished piano player, and is a math wiz. If he hears a song once, he can pretty much play it by ear on the piano. He has a job working with an engineering firm in Dayton.

TC81190
08-30-2006, 10:44 PM
Scum like those two backwoods Hillbillies become Foster Parents for the Money, not for love of children.

I would personally volunteer to be the executioner for these two. What irks me more than anything is the NUMBER of family members who were involved or had direct knowledge of this murder. Sick.

If by executioner, you mean 'real-life reenactment of the movie Saw', then absolutely.

My brother, like Marcus, has autism. He is very innocent and trusting, always nice to everybody. He probably couldn't be mean or arrogant to you if he tried with all his might.

He places all of his trust in us, so when we ask him to do something, he does it, because he doesn't doubt what you are saying.

That's what devistates me about this story.

Marcus trusted them with his life, and they screwed him.

I can only hope that they get the worst of level of hell for this.

RedFanAlways1966
08-31-2006, 01:50 PM
Let it be known to the prison population (when they get there) what they did. Makes final justice a lot less expensive. Shaw-"SHANK" Redemption.

:angry:

vaticanplum
08-31-2006, 02:14 PM
I hate to sound cynical about all this, because this is a horrible tragedy and everyone should be outraged at what these monsters did. But I've heard so much anger and shock from so many people about this case, and my question is: where were all these shocked, outraged people when this kid needed a home? While his life ended horrifically, it was no picnic even before he was placed with these foster parents. I can't tell you the amount of people I've heard volunteer to execute these parents, but I've heard exactly one person say "I wish I would have adopted this kid."

With the Carrolls' history, the foster care system failed somewhere in all this. But at the same time, they're in dire straits trying to place these kids in homes because if the kids they're "offering" are not six-hour-old, blue-eyed babies in perfect health, no one wants them. Now, I am not saying that everyone who is upset about this case (as we all should be) should start taking kids into their homes; not everybody is in a position to do that. But Marcus's death, while not inevitable, is not only the result of these crazy people who had custody of him. It is the result of a long line of sad events in a sad little life that we all DO have the power to do something about. Sometimes I feel like it's easier to lay blame only at the feet of some "incomprehensible" monster act than it is to look at the whole very real picture, and the whole picture is comprised of many, many children in various stages of this kind of difficult life. If people are outraged about this, then they have every right to start examining the entire system and maybe trying to do something before other kids get to the point that this poor kid did.

Ltlabner
09-01-2006, 02:24 PM
Looks like the foster parents will be tried in Clermont county for the murder related charges and in Hamilton county for the purjery, fileing a false report and inducing panic charges.

The prosecutorial team will be lead by the lead assistant disctrict attorneys from both counties (one from each county). They will present the case to the grand jury on this comming Wednesday.

It was reported by Cunningham that local foster care agencies (he didn't say which ones) were getting tons of calls from people wanting to become foster parents. Maybe some small positive thing will come out of this tragedy if some good people step forward to be foster parents.

And in a completley sick move, the birth mother is having a press conference at 3:00pm to annunce she is sueing Butler County for contributing to the death of her son due to negligence in the county admistered foster care system. Completey digusting.

Reds4Life
09-01-2006, 02:45 PM
And in a completley sick move, the birth mother is having a press conference at 3:00pm to annunce she is sueing Butler County for contributing to the death of her son due to negligence in the county admistered foster care system. Completey digusting.

The kid fell out of 2 story window while he was in her care as well, she sounds like a candidate for mother of the year.

Ltlabner
09-01-2006, 02:52 PM
The kid fell out of 2 story window while he was in her care as well, she sounds like a candidate for mother of the year.

That's what disgusts me. If it weren't for her incompetence as a parent Marcus wouldn't have been placed in the foster care system in the first place. That doesn't absolve the flaws in the system that led to his death or the monsters who actually commited the crime, but had she not failed in her responsibilities none of this would have happened. And she wants other people to give her lots of money? Sick.

All of her children were taken from her by CPS. It wasn't as if she realized she couldn't hack it as parent and gave up the children for their best interests.

And now she want's to sue them for money? Marcus contines to be a meal ticket to her and it makes me irrate.

TeamBoone
09-01-2006, 02:53 PM
Where there's money to be had, the scum will rise to the top of the barrel... just like cream, only there's a huge difference.

Between his birth "mother" and his foster "mother", that poor little boy didn't have a chance in hell... oh wait, he was in hell.

ochre
09-01-2006, 02:57 PM
I hate to sound cynical about all this, because this is a horrible tragedy and everyone should be outraged at what these monsters did. But I've heard so much anger and shock from so many people about this case, and my question is: where were all these shocked, outraged people when this kid needed a home? While his life ended horrifically, it was no picnic even before he was placed with these foster parents. I can't tell you the amount of people I've heard volunteer to execute these parents, but I've heard exactly one person say "I wish I would have adopted this kid."

John Adams was critical of Thomas Paine on similar grounds. Adams saw a tendency amongst the revolutionaries that is probably a prevailing human trait; it's, generally easier to tear down than it is to build up. It's easier to say all this stuff is broke than it is to fix it.

Ltlabner
09-01-2006, 03:02 PM
Hamilton County Prosecutor (Joe Deiters - my add) said today that a possible lawsuit by Donna Trevino, Fiesel's birth mother, was for the civil courts to decide.

"I'm just sick that people keep using Marcus for a check," he said. "If she had paid half as much attention to Marcus before as she is now, we wouldn't be in this situation. To angle this for money is outrageous."

From Cincinnatienquirer.com

flyer85
09-01-2006, 03:06 PM
The problem was simply that the little boy was always surrounded by people who cared more about themselves than they did him. He was never loved or got to experience true caring and compassion, and that is truly sad.

GAC
09-01-2006, 04:15 PM
From the very beginning, and when it involved a foster child, I strongly suspected it would come down to the parents. Sad, very sad.

But how many times a week, nationwide, are we reading similar such stories folks? IMO, there is something very, very wrong within our society when this seems to become so commonplace anymore.

My sister and ex-brother-in-law (who works for Children's Services) were very involved in the Foster Child program for many years. And a majority of these kids already come from broken and abusive households.

flyer85
09-01-2006, 04:27 PM
This is a by-product of a me-first society. Lots of people out there who only see the world in terms of how it directly affects them.

TeamBoone
09-01-2006, 06:08 PM
I had a "foster" child once, for three years... a teenage boy. It wasn't really a foster situation but it was a legal one (and I didn't know his parents). We had our ups and downs, but I like to think I had something to do with helping him turn his life around and become a responsible adult.

I still see him on occasion.

Cedric
09-01-2006, 11:45 PM
I interviewed this family while I was interning last year for Big Brothers Big Sisters.

I didn't realize this was the family until I read in the Enquirer the name Donna Trevino. I had only been hearing of Marcus Fiesel and I did not remember that kid. I was there for the older brother and I honestly can't even remember if Marcus was in the house then. I think he had already been moved.

In my whole year of interning that was by far the weirdest home visit I had. She spoke at length about the window issue and about how pharmacies were screwing her kids out of medicine, weird. She was beyond weird and inconsiderate to me the whole time I was at the house. I was a little shocked at how the kid spoke to me and that she did nothing but laugh. It was such an eery feeling being in that house.
I clearly remember going back to my internship and just being shocked at the whole situation. It's quite sad.

Reds Freak
09-02-2006, 02:41 AM
Did anyone see the picture in the paper of the real mother's boyfriend? Apparently he had to be restrained in the courtroom after seeing the foster father so that he wouldn't go after him. Yeah, I'm sure the boyfriend has played a big role in the child's life and was very emotionally attached to him. Now all of a sudden they care. Give me a break. The only person to feel sorry is little Marcus, everyone else is to blame.

Ravenlord
09-02-2006, 02:51 AM
why does this entire event make me think of Stone Sour's "Bother"?



Wish I was too dead to cry
My self-affliction fades
Stones to throw at my creator
Masochists to which I cater
You don't need to bother;
I don't need to be
I'll keep slipping farther
But once I hold on,
I won't let go 'til it bleeds

Wish I was too dead to care
If indeed I cared at all
Never had a voice to protest
So you fed me **** to digest
I wish I had a reason;
my flaws are open season
For this, I gave up trying
One good turn deserves my dying

You don't need to bother;
I don't need to be
I'll keep slipping farther
But once I hold on,
I won't let go 'til it bleeds

[Solo: Corey]

Wish I'd died instead of lived
A zombie hides my face
Shell forgotten
with its memories
Diaries left
with cryptic entries

And you don't need to bother;
I don't need to be
I'll keep slipping farther
But once I hold on,
I won't let go 'til it bleeds

You don't need to bother;
I don't need to be
I'll keep slipping farther
But once I hold on:
I'll never live down my deceit

Dom Heffner
09-02-2006, 12:14 PM
John Adams was critical of Thomas Paine on similar grounds. Adams saw a tendency amongst the revolutionaries that is probably a prevailing human trait; it's, generally easier to tear down than it is to build up. It's easier to say all this stuff is broke than it is to fix it.


While I admire- no, adore- the comparison, I'm having a little trouble putting this on us.


I can't tell you the amount of people I've heard volunteer to execute these parents, but I've heard exactly one person say "I wish I would have adopted this kid."


I am against the death penalty, but having said that, this is nobody's fault except for the people who volunteered to take care of this boy, the birth mother for putting him in the system in the first place, and the system for not ensuring his safety.

I think it is possible to be outraged but no be interested in adopting children or raising foster kids.

In fact, I would say the system is better off without people who aren't in it strictly for the love of children.

What needs to happen is that the people who run child services should better screen their candidates. It sounds like there were some clues here that all wasn't well, and the system needs to improve its methods to assure morons like these don't get a chance to raise kids.

There will always be lousy parents. We need to get a process down that weeds them out.

If I missed your argument I apologize, but it seems like you're saying that we can't be calling for justice unless we want to be part of the solution.

That sounds inspiring, but there are too many fires to put out in the world for someone to be a part of every solution they want fixed. To me, it is the responsibility of those who have answered this particular calling. In this instance it is child services, or the county or whoever is in this line of work.

As well- just by being outraged we are part of the solution because it places pressure on our public officials to correct flaws within the way they run things. When people start calling for heads, somebody usually gets the message.

Now the law gets to deal with these people, and even though I am personally against the death penalty, if they get it, you won't find me outside the state pen holding a candle. In fact, I'd argue that if it is the law, they should get it.

Hopefully I'm not missing the boat, but I read your post and felt that I couldn't be calling for justice if I wasn't interested in adopting a child.

Feel free to steer me straight. :)

I'd also add that I am not calling for the torture, rape, or anything beyond what the law deems as punishment for the accused. I don't feel the need to add debauchery on top of debauchery. The law needs to be followed in the strictest sense and nothing more or less should be acceptable.

Cooper
09-03-2006, 04:38 AM
There's a saver shortage of FP's.

Vactican plum nailed the arguement.

18 dollars a day just doesn't sut it ---these kids have sever emotional problems --

25 years ago they were in institutions...so they are harder to handle.

!st time you came home to fecal material on the wall would probalby end it for most folks.

Socety doesn'T value the recruitment and retention of Fp's.....anyone want their taxes raised to pay for it? Dint think so?

Anyone want to take a placement where the child acts out sexually?

That's why it's hard to find homes.

Society doesn't value fostering. If they did --we wouldn't have these huge shortages.

Btw, 90% of the time it costs more to house the foster child then what the FP makes. When they do have extra they often turn into around and put it back into services for the child.

GAC
09-03-2006, 07:39 AM
There's a saver shortage of FP's.

Vactican plum nailed the arguement.

18 dollars a day just doesn't sut it ---these kids have sever emotional problems --

25 years ago they were in institutions...so they are harder to handle.

!st time you came home to fecal material on the wall would probalby end it for most folks.

Socety doesn'T value the recruitment and retention of Fp's.....anyone want their taxes raised to pay for it? Dint think so?

Anyone want to take a placement where the child acts out sexually?

That's why it's hard to find homes.

Society doesn't value fostering. If they did --we wouldn't have these huge shortages.

Btw, 90% of the time it costs more to house the foster child then what the FP makes. When they do have extra they often turn into around and put it back into services for the child.


Exactly. As I stated before - my sister was heavily involved in the foster child program for close to 20 years, and helped to raise 10-15 children at various times. And everyone of them had problems.... emotional, physical, and psychological. Sadly enough, they all had "baggage", and it wasn't their fault IMHO. They came from scarred and broken homes inwhich alot of cases their parents had their own problems, couldn't raise them, or didn't want them.

And what I thought was the biggest problem or concern, when trying to deal with these troubled kids was that the government (social services) really strapped the hands of the foster parents when it came to disciplining these kids and trying to rein them in when they got out of control. And some of these kids needed it. But these kids also knew the "system", and they'd use it against their foster parents at times. All they had to do was level a charge against their foster parents to their social worker, regardless if it was true or not, and the SW would act on the premise that it was true until proven otherwise. And that meant alot of crap for those foster parents who had to prove their innocence and basically be "put through the wringer" to do so.

TeamBoone
09-03-2006, 04:45 PM
Not all foster children are special needs children. If that not what you want, you do have options. Some are just unfortunate little people who need a stable home environment... loving but needy.

Again, if a special needs child is more than one can handle, there are plenty of other needy children who cry out silently for loving foster parents.

vaticanplum
09-03-2006, 06:54 PM
While I admire- no, adore- the comparison, I'm having a little trouble putting this on us.



I am against the death penalty, but having said that, this is nobody's fault except for the people who volunteered to take care of this boy, the birth mother for putting him in the system in the first place, and the system for not ensuring his safety.

I think it is possible to be outraged but no be interested in adopting children or raising foster kids.

In fact, I would say the system is better off without people who aren't in it strictly for the love of children.

What needs to happen is that the people who run child services should better screen their candidates. It sounds like there were some clues here that all wasn't well, and the system needs to improve its methods to assure morons like these don't get a chance to raise kids.

There will always be lousy parents. We need to get a process down that weeds them out.

If I missed your argument I apologize, but it seems like you're saying that we can't be calling for justice unless we want to be part of the solution.

That sounds inspiring, but there are too many fires to put out in the world for someone to be a part of every solution they want fixed. To me, it is the responsibility of those who have answered this particular calling. In this instance it is child services, or the county or whoever is in this line of work.

As well- just by being outraged we are part of the solution because it places pressure on our public officials to correct flaws within the way they run things. When people start calling for heads, somebody usually gets the message.

Now the law gets to deal with these people, and even though I am personally against the death penalty, if they get it, you won't find me outside the state pen holding a candle. In fact, I'd argue that if it is the law, they should get it.

Hopefully I'm not missing the boat, but I read your post and felt that I couldn't be calling for justice if I wasn't interested in adopting a child.

Feel free to steer me straight. :)

I'd also add that I am not calling for the torture, rape, or anything beyond what the law deems as punishment for the accused. I don't feel the need to add debauchery on top of debauchery. The law needs to be followed in the strictest sense and nothing more or less should be acceptable.

Dom, I'm not sure if you're talking to me or to the respondant, but just to clarify, I do not at all believe that you have no right to be angry about this if you are not willing to take children into your home or whatnot. I specifically said that everyone should be outraged about this, and you will most definitely not find me taking children into my home, because I am, as I said many people are, not in a position to do it. And what you say here is certainly true:


As well- just by being outraged we are part of the solution because it places pressure on our public officials to correct flaws within the way they run things. When people start calling for heads, somebody usually gets the message.

But it does really strike me that people seem more willing to get angry about this than to try to prevent it happening in the first place. The people who are responsible for Marcus's death are the following people: his killers, his parents, and the foster system (the members of whom I do not believe did a thorough job looking into these people when there certainly seemed to be clues regarding their inability to care for themselves/children). That's it, nobody else is responsible. But in a grayer world, the foster system has trouble placing kids because most people only want a certain kind of kid, and that puts them in a precarious position. People will mourn the death of a troublesome, special needs child, but they won't take him in in the first place. Again, that sounds horribly cynical, and again, I'm not trying to throw stones; I'm not the one taking in these kids. But while these people are not responsible for this death, they are part of a bigger picture of a society more willing to mourn -- or even to fix -- things after they're broken than to take care of them well enough to prevent them breaking in the first place.

This whole thing is a BIG story, and any big stories in America have an air of sensationalism about them. I can be very cynical and critical about things, so even when I know that the emotions that are stirred up by these kinds of stories are real and that people genuinely mourn such a poor little life as this one, sometimes I wonder if what they're responding to is the sadness of the story or the sensationalism. That is my own problem, and I am not trying to blame anyone for that. If there is a real change in the foster system and the amount of people trying to help such children, then I will take heart that people were genuinely moved (or angry) enough to respond. I do hope that's the case and so far I have seen signs that it could be. If nothing really changes until the next story like this comes along, then we have the same public outcry all over again, I will fear that the response was to the sensationalism.

PS I love the idea of a multi-quote function but I couldn't get it to work.

BUTLER REDSFAN
09-05-2006, 09:51 PM
and now the waste of human flesh birth mother is suing the Butler County department that took the child to begin with??????????someone on wlw this saturday for what its worth said he was behind the birth mother in line at the social security office a few days ago and heard her tell an official she was 3 months pregnant again??

zombielady
09-08-2006, 02:51 PM
I was sickened by the whole situation. And now the birthmother is suing? I doubt that she'll win, I mean, how can she?

Ltlabner
02-21-2007, 09:03 PM
BATAVIA -- A jury has decided that Liz Carroll is guilty of murdering foster child Marcus Fiesel.

The jury reached their decision after a little over five hours of deliberations on Wednesday.

Carroll was also found guilty of kidnapping, felonious assault and three counts of child endangerment.


After the murder verdict was stated, Carroll began to cry and dropped her head through the rest of the verdicts.

She faces 15 years to life in prison. Defense attorney Gregory Cohen said he would appeal the verdict.

Sentencing will take place on Thursday.

News 5's John London said that Carroll's mother, Audrey Sims, left the courthouse crying "Amy did it! Don't nobody care that Amy did it?", referring to Amy Baker, a live-in girlfriend and star witness for the prosecution.

Stay tuned to News 5 and WLWT.com for the latest information.

Story here (http://www.wlwt.com/news/11075497/detail.html).

The case went to the jury today and the convicted right out of the gate. 1 down. 2 to go. Unfortunatley, they had to deal with Amy Baker so only 1 more will face justice at the hands of the legal system.

Razor Shines
02-21-2007, 09:44 PM
Story here (http://www.wlwt.com/news/11075497/detail.html).

The case went to the jury today and the convicted right out of the gate. 1 down. 2 to go. Unfortunatley, they had to deal with Amy Baker so only 1 more will face justice at the hands of the legal system.

From what I've read about Baker, I can't believe they gave her a deal. She helped David dump the body, but she didn't have anything to do with the death, right.

George Foster
02-21-2007, 09:56 PM
Where there's money to be had, the scum will rise to the top of the barrel... just like cream, only there's a huge difference.

Between his birth "mother" and his foster "mother", that poor little boy didn't have a chance in hell... oh wait, he was in hell.

Not anymore....he's in a lot better place.

CougarQuest
02-22-2007, 01:26 AM
This case is a lot more disgusting than what has been allowed out in court. I can't add any more comment than that.

I guarantee that the prosecutors were disappointed that Liz didn't testify for numerous reasons.

RedFanAlways1966
02-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Justice served. One more for Lady Justice to serve. Then we wait to hear about word getting out in their respective prisons about what they have done. More justice...

Roy Tucker
02-22-2007, 09:11 AM
I think all 3 of them were equally culpable.

Baker just flipped first and now gets off scot-free. I understand why the prosecution gave her immunity, but I wish there was a way to park her butt in jail for 40-50 years.

RedFanAlways1966
02-22-2007, 09:23 AM
I think all 3 of them were equally culpable.

Baker just flipped first and now gets off scot-free. I understand why the prosecution gave her immunity, but I wish there was a way to park her butt in jail for 40-50 years.

Absolutely, Roy. Unfortunately it seems that the DA wasn't sure it could be solved or a conviction had without Baker's help. Someday, somewhere... this world or another... I hope she gets hers.

flyer85
02-22-2007, 10:49 AM
Obviously the dynamic is bizarre in a home with a husband/wife/live-in girlfriend and foster children.

I suspect we may never know the full truth about what happened.

Chip R
02-22-2007, 11:12 AM
Absolutely, Roy. Unfortunately it seems that the DA wasn't sure it could be solved or a conviction had without Baker's help. Someday, somewhere... this world or another... I hope she gets hers.


I suppose it's better to have the Carrolls convicted and Baker to go free than to have everyone go free. It's not the ideal situation but at least someone is going to do time for this.

CougarQuest
02-22-2007, 01:22 PM
I think all 3 of them were equally culpable.

Baker just flipped first and now gets off scot-free. I understand why the prosecution gave her immunity, but I wish there was a way to park her butt in jail for 40-50 years.


Pray that the husband testifies. Highly doubtful though.

Joseph
02-22-2007, 01:26 PM
Is her [Amy Baker] immunity complete? Or is it [I'm not sure the word] dependent on her story? I've heard talk of certain types of immunity being predicated on the story told and that if the story waivers at all that the immunity is waived.

Dunno for sure.

RedFanAlways1966
02-22-2007, 01:43 PM
This case is a lot more disgusting than what has been allowed out in court. I can't add any more comment than that.

I guarantee that the prosecutors were disappointed that Liz didn't testify for numerous reasons.

Appreciate the comment CougarQuest and understand your position.

Had WLW on while coming back from lunch and Cunningham was talking. Being Cunningham makes many question the validity, but it does not seem like he'd fabricate stuff relative to something like this...

Claims Liz Carroll was a drug dealer, a thief and was known to tie up her kids. Says the prosecutor had witnesses ready to testify to this had Liz taken the stand and have her attorney portray her as something she was not.

Matt700wlw
02-22-2007, 01:50 PM
She got 54 years to life (54 is the minimum if she only gets 15 for murder) for all 7 counts she was found guilty for.

David's trial starts next month....and for now, Amy walks.

All 3 should die....you kill a kid, you die.

Hopefully, down the road, they find some evidence that they can link to Amy Baker.

Matt700wlw
02-22-2007, 01:58 PM
From what I've read about Baker, I can't believe they gave her a deal. She helped David dump the body, but she didn't have anything to do with the death, right.

It's the only way that anybody would be convicted.....she came "clean" and it "solved" the case.

Without her, they had nothing....

Sad really, because I don't buy her story....hell, I don't buy any of their stories.

CougarQuest
02-22-2007, 09:35 PM
Is her [Amy Baker] immunity complete? Or is it [I'm not sure the word] dependent on her story? I've heard talk of certain types of immunity being predicated on the story told and that if the story waivers at all that the immunity is waived.

Dunno for sure.

If evidence is raised that shows her involvement in the murder (other than her non-assistance in helphing Marcus), the deal is off. Both Carrols and all their attorneys know that.

I think the prosecutors office said it best today. There was a woman who was helping search for Marcus when this first came out. Her reason was that her brother went missing 40 years ago and they never found him.

This case was at the point that without working out a deal with one of them, and in this case a deal with the person least responsible for raising Marcus, there wouldn't have been any trial this week or within 40 years. Any physical evidence, especially with all the rain and snow that we've experienced, would have been gone forever. Everyone would still feel all three were guilty, but no one would face a criminal trial.

I'm going to add something else:
The Cincinnati Enquirer needs to take a deep dark look at itself.

Ltlabner
02-22-2007, 09:39 PM
If evidence is raised that shows her involvement in the murder, the deal is off. Both Carrols and their attorneys know that.

I'm going to add something else:
The Cincinnati Enquirer needs to take a deep dark look at itself.

Yea, I think Amy Baker is up to her arm pits in this mess, but without her jumping out first to save her skin all three would likely walk, or at the very least face very reduced charges. That's just the way of the legal system, sometimes you have to make a deal with the devil to get to the "greater good".

I agree CG, what the hell was the Enquirer thinking? Posting names and addresses of jurors? And publishing stories that were chock full of errors and what amounted to "Carroll Talking Points". Sad.

Ltlabner
02-22-2007, 09:41 PM
Claims Liz Carroll was a drug dealer, a thief and was known to tie up her kids. Says the prosecutor had witnesses ready to testify to this had Liz taken the stand and have her attorney portray her as something she was not.

Willie didn't make that up. The prosecuters said they had evidence of all of this in their statement to the judge prior to sentencing (listend to it live). They had coorborting eveidence from witnesses/sworn statements. Basicailly they were telling the judge if he was entertaining the idea of excersing some lienency that he should know about all of this other crap that didn't come because she didn't take the stand. And I would guess, not being a lawyer, that this was a clear message to the David Carroll camp that they had the goods on him too.

Caveat Emperor
02-22-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm going to add something else:
The Cincinnati Enquirer needs to take a deep dark look at itself.

Absolutely agreed.

I can't really comment on any of these things, but the Enquirer lost credibility by the bucketloads during this entire proceeding, from it's sham article that amounted to free testimony in the court of public opinion prior to voir dire to the juror debacle today.

Chip R
02-26-2007, 04:12 PM
David Carroll is going to take the plea deal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wlwt/20070226/lo_wlwt/11113298

HotCorner
02-26-2007, 04:23 PM
David Carroll is going to take the plea deal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wlwt/20070226/lo_wlwt/11113298

He saw the writing on the wall. I'm surpised that the prosecutors office would still offer the deal considering the outcome of the Liz Carroll trial.

dabvu2498
02-26-2007, 04:37 PM
He saw the writing on the wall. I'm surpised that the prosecutors office would still offer the deal considering the outcome of the Liz Carroll trial.

She made a self-inciminating statement to the grand jury, he didn't.

RedFanAlways1966
02-26-2007, 05:56 PM
She made a self-inciminating statement to the grand jury, he didn't.

And all this means is that he'll get a chance to be paroled way before she will. And guess what? If he gets paroled before any of us die, I'll have a heart attack and die anyhow. You kill a 3-yr-old foster child in the manner in which Marcus was killed and dispose of the body in the way that they did... enjoy the rest of your life and your death in prison. Light of day... only in prison rec yard. Parole hearings will happen only so they can tell this loser no.

dabvu2498
02-26-2007, 06:10 PM
And all this means is that he'll get a chance to be paroled way before she will. And guess what? If he gets paroled before any of us die, I'll have a heart attack and die anyhow. You kill a 3-yr-old foster child in the manner in which Marcus was killed and dispose of the body in the way that they did... enjoy the rest of your life and your death in prison. Light of day... only in prison rec yard. Parole hearings will happen only so they can tell this loser no.

Agreed.

Ltlabner
02-26-2007, 06:11 PM
And all this means is that he'll get a chance to be paroled way before she will. And guess what? If he gets paroled before any of us die, I'll have a heart attack and die anyhow. You kill a 3-yr-old foster child in the manner in which Marcus was killed and dispose of the body in the way that they did... enjoy the rest of your life and your death in prison. Light of day... only in prison rec yard. Parole hearings will happen only so they can tell this loser no.

Yea people hear the 16 years part, but forget the "to life" part of the equation.

Matt700wlw
02-26-2007, 06:33 PM
Amy Baker may not be out the woods either....Maysville, KY official want an investigation of her participation dumping Marcus's body, which happened across the river. That in itself, transporting a body over state lines, is a Federal offense.

She only has immunity in Butler and Cleremont Counties...

I guess, technically, they could go after David Carroll when it's all said and done as well.

TeamCasey
02-27-2007, 08:27 AM
I'm in the camp that's bothered by this plea deal. The guy gets 38 years more than his wife. He's got a history of abusing this child. He's the one that burned the body and probably killed the kid along with that skeevy Amy Baker who should also have her behind in a sling. I think the plea deal sucks.

Caveat Emperor
02-27-2007, 08:45 AM
He's the one that burned the body and probably killed the kid along with that skeevy Amy Baker who should also have her behind in a sling. I think the plea deal sucks.

While I agree that Amy Baker is the lowest form of life on the planet, without her testimony and cooperation with the police, EVERYONE would be walking free today.

LoganBuck
02-27-2007, 08:47 AM
I'm in the camp that's bothered by this plea deal. The guy gets 38 years more than his wife. He's got a history of abusing this child. He's the one that burned the body and probably killed the kid along with that skeevy Amy Baker who should also have her behind in a sling. I think the plea deal sucks.

Agree, I just don't like the idea of the KY authorities getting involved because of her plea bargin testamony. She took an immunity deal and even though we all want to see her locked up I don't think anything productive comes out of the KY investigation. The next situation that comes up where the prosecution needs someone to roll over, people like Amy Baker would not come forward. If every possible outside prosecuting authority can put the kabosh on it, what incentive would there be? We might not know what happened to Marcus Fiesel if she didn't step forward, and all three of them could be on the street.

Ltlabner
02-27-2007, 08:56 AM
I'm in the camp that's bothered by this plea deal. The guy gets 38 years more than his wife. He's got a history of abusing this child. He's the one that burned the body and probably killed the kid along with that skeevy Amy Baker who should also have her behind in a sling. I think the plea deal sucks.

Keep in mind, however, that there was no grand jury testimony of David Carrol saying, " I did it". The star witness against him would be Amy Baker, a witness with zero credibility (so much so that the jury in the Liz Carroll trial all pretty much said they disregarded Bakers testimony). There's no physical evidence linking him conclusivley to the crime. Also, there was a chance of the trial being moved to a different location where the jury pool is likely to know none of the details of the case. With some good lawyering, Carrol may have walked. Would you rather have that outcome?

Mix in that there were rumors of the Caroll children having to testify against their father. And the fact that it's not '16 years' it's '16 years to life' I think this was a no-brainer. It also saves the county the cost of the trial (a small factor).

Our duty as citizens now, is to remember the outrage of this crime and if/when Carrol comes up for parole we have to write the parole board, show up at his hearings, and generally let them know what the citizenary thinks about David Carrol so the '16 to life' ultimatley stays 'for life'.

Matt700wlw
02-28-2007, 04:25 PM
To lighten things up a bit...

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/onair_scottsloan.html

Our cast has started for the made for TV movie....


http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/09/t_1209_1157721081.bmp
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/t_1209_1172642214.jpg

David Carroll played by Woody Harrelson

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/09/1209_1157112465.bmp
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172642957.jpg

Liz Carroll played by Charlize Theron

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1171904810.JPG
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172642793.jpg

Amy Baker played by Tanya Harding

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643265.jpg
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643295.jpg

Donna Trevino played by Tony Siragusa

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643865.jpg
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643889.jpg

Audrey Simms played by Estelle Warren

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172644164.jpg
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172644207.jpg

Greg Cohen played by Thom Brennaman

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172644435.jpg
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172644415.jpg

Joe Deters played by Ed Harris

Dom Heffner
02-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Is that really Tanya Harding?

Wow. Unrecognizable.

RedFanAlways1966
02-28-2007, 04:45 PM
Good stuff, Matt!! :laugh:

HotCorner
02-28-2007, 05:14 PM
To lighten things up a bit...

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/onair_scottsloan.html

http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643265.jpg
http://700wlw.com/cc-common/mlib/1209/02/1209_1172643295.jpg

Donna Trevino played by Tony Siragusa



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

WMR
02-28-2007, 09:13 PM
Does Thom Brennaman wear a hair-piece?

Ltlabner
03-02-2007, 03:55 PM
Well...now it sounds like some idiot juror who just couldn't keep her yap shut has mucked things up. Story here... (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070302/NEWS01/703020351/-1/CINCI)


BATAVIA - Defense attorney Gregory Cohen filed a motion Thursday in Clermont County Common Pleas Court asking Judge Robert Ringland to throw out Liz Carroll's convictions on murder and other charges and start over.

Cohen based his motion on comments by a juror about Carroll's trial and murder conviction in the death of her foster son Marcus Fiesel, 3.

Cohen singled out juror Patti Weinstein, who was quoted in a story by Paul Daugherty published last Friday in The Enquirer. (Read the story).


"This juror stated that her 'biggest fear was that what she said she knew in her heart - that this woman did this terrible thing - would not be proven in court,' " Cohen quoted from the article in his motion for a new trial.

"It is clear that she lied when she stated that she could be fair and would not be prejudiced by prior knowledge of the case."

Cohen also noted that Weinstein indicated in her interview that she and several other jurors agreed that they had to convict Carroll "to do right" by Marcus.

Cohen said other Weinstein comments also violated her oath to be impartial and showed that she disregarded the instructions Ringland gave jurors.

"She stated that she held it against Liz Carroll that she did not testify, in direct contradiction and disregard of the jury instructions," Cohen said in his motion. "She and at least two other jurors have publicly stated that they held counsel's failure to put on evidence as further evidence of Ms. Carroll's guilt. Again, this is a failure to follow the jury instructions by placing a burden of proof upon a defendant who has not raised an affirmative defense."

Clermont County Prosecutor Don White said his office would review Cohen's motion.

"We need to look at it, we need to investigate it, we need to research it before we comment on it," White said. "And when we comment, we'll do it in writing, and it will be available at the courthouse, or it will be in the courtroom."

Cohen said he tried during jury selection to have Weinstein booted as a prospective juror because he thought she had already made up her mind through news reports of the Marcus case.

Feb. 19, during the third day of testimony, Cohen again challenged Weinstein as a juror after he learned that she and another female juror were whispering and pointing at Carroll and were possibly passing notes. The women denied passing notes, but said they pointed and whispered about their view of Carroll being obstructed from the jury box by a lectern.

Carroll, a 30-year-old mother of three, was sentenced last week to 54 years to life in prison for the death of Marcus Fiesel. She will spend 38 more years in prison than her husband before she is eligible for parole.

Six days after a jury convicted Liz Carroll of murder and six other felony charges in Marcus' death, her husband, David Carroll Jr., pleaded guilty to charges of murder and gross abuse of a corpse. He was sent to prison for 16 years to life.

Prosecutors said the couple bound the developmentally disabled boy in a blanket and strapping tape and left him in a closet at their Clermont County home Aug. 4 when they left town for two days to attend a family reunion in Williamstown, Ky. The child was dead when they returned, authorities said.

David Carroll, 29, then incinerated Marcus' body in a remote chimney in Brown County, with the help of the couple's live-in girlfriend, Amy Baker, and tossed what wouldn't burn into the Ohio River in Maysville, Ky., prosecutors said.

Police broke the case two weeks later after a massive search for Marcus at an Anderson Township park, where Liz Carroll made a bogus report that the child vanished when she fainted from a heart condition.

Baker, 25, received immunity from prosecution after she pointed the finger at the Carrolls and gave authorities the break they needed to make arrests in the case.

David Carroll told The Enquirer in a jail interview that Marcus was dead before the family and Baker left on the family reunion and that his wife was not home at the time. He said Marcus died after Baker bound him because the child wouldn't stay down for a nap so they could have sex.

Before being sentenced Tuesday, Carroll denied that.

"I was present when Marcus was taped and wrapped in a blanket," Carroll told Judge Jerry McBride. "It was Amy Baker and myself. ... We left him there. When we came back, he was gone - he was dead."

Ltlabner
03-02-2007, 03:59 PM
And here's the link (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070223/NEWS01/702230398/-1/newsLizCarroll) to the story referenced in the above story...I've bolded the parts of the story that will lead to a hearing regarding jury misconduct/mistrial (based on news reports, I'm no lawyer at all). The way this story is written, I'm not impressed with this Weinstein twit in the least.


The slide show of her daughter's first 21 years contained 280 photographs and lasted 18 minutes. For a few nights last week, Patti Weinstein returned from jury duty to her Clermont County home to assemble the pictures of Lauren that she would give to her on her 21st birthday.

It was pleasant enough, until Weinstein started seeing pictures of Lauren when Lauren was 3. That was Marcus Fiesel's age.

At first, she thought it would be glamorous, being a juror in the murder trial of Liz Carroll. She watches legal dramas on TV. She followed the O.J. Simpson trial like everyone else. She discovered quickly it would be nothing like that. Nothing at all.


"I never want to be in that position again," Weinstein said Thursday, 24 hours after she and 11 other jurors convicted Carroll on seven counts, ranging from child endangering to murder. "It was an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness."

At one point during the jury's five hours of deliberations Wednesday, Weinstein held up a photograph of Marcus. "This is what it's all about," she said.

"This little boy with these beautiful blue eyes. Who got gypped out of a life. He was never given a fair shake."

Weinstein wasn't alone. Three or four other jurors made the same declaration.

"We never lost sight of one thing," Weinstein said.

"It wasn't about convicting her. It was about doing right by him."

Ultimately, Weinstein said, convicting Carroll wasn't hard. The jurors were clear about Carroll's guilt.

The weeklong journey their decision required couldn't have been more difficult.

"I don't know what good comes out of this. It's dirty. It makes your skin crawl," Weinstein said. "But we did what we could for that little boy."

Weinstein said she took Amy Baker's testimony "with a grain of salt," and that she knew Baker was "trying to save herself."

But while she didn't think much more of Baker than Carroll, Weinstein said Baker was not the one who agreed to be a foster parent, was not the one who agreed to take care of Marcus, and was not the one who agreed to never leave him alone.

It's an odd and wonderful thing that a country can call randomly upon the honor, duty and wisdom of 12 ordinary people and, more often than not, come away feeling justice has been served. Patti Weinstein, 48, married, mother of two, employed at a fitness center, said she was proud to do it.

"This was my only call to civic duty," she said. "I'm not called to fight in a war. I'm not in political office. I feel very strongly about being able to do what I did."

Also, exhausted. She said she has slept fitfully since last Wednesday, when she learned she'd be on the jury. Weinstein's biggest fear was that what she said she knew in her heart - "that this woman did this terrible thing" - would not be proven in court. Jurors are not allowed to discuss the case, even with one another, so by Tuesday night, Weinstein didn't know if anyone else felt the way she did.

Judge Robert P. Ringland had instructed the jurors before the trial not only to listen to testimony, but to observe everyone involved. What Weinstein said she saw in Carroll was a remorseless woman concerned only for her own welfare.

As prosecutors displayed Marcus' photo to the court, Weinstein looked at Carroll.

"I knew what I felt in my heart and my stomach when I saw that," she said. "I didn't see that in her. She just had a blank expression."