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Always Red
08-31-2006, 10:19 AM
did Kriv give up on Williams too early, only because he was brought in by O'B?

The Mets just sent him back down to AAA, but said they're bringing him back up for his next start.

Johnny Footstool
08-31-2006, 10:20 AM
did Kriv give up on Williams too early, only because he was brought in by O'B?

The Mets just sent him back down to AAA, but said they're bringing him back up for his next start.

Williams was junk. If the Mets have somehow turned him around, it's a testament to the quality of their coaching staff.

RedsManRick
08-31-2006, 10:22 AM
Chris Michilak pitched 6 scoreless innings in his first appearance. Blind squirrels, nuts, etc.

Always Red
08-31-2006, 10:22 AM
Williams was junk. If the Mets have somehow turned him around, it's a testament to the quality of their coaching staff.

or, does it speak to the quality of our pitching coaches, to be more specific?

Highlifeman21
08-31-2006, 10:24 AM
or, does it speak to the quality of our pitching coaches, to be more specific?

6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other....

Lil of column A.... lil of column B....

Always Red
08-31-2006, 10:29 AM
6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other....

Lil of column A.... lil of column B....

LOL- you're probably right.

Vern Ruhle made an immediate impact on the ptiching staff when he joined the club last year. I don't know how to find those numbers, but the staff ERA was almost a whole 1.00 better under him than Gully.

I think this staff and team really missed Vern this year. I hope that he comes back, and hope and pray that he's beaten his cancer.

Not sure if Tom Hume is cut out to be full time pitching coach; Boom Boom might be better with the bullpen. This is one area that will be addressed in the offseason, IMO.

NJReds
08-31-2006, 11:26 AM
The Mets signed him, put him in AAA and immediately put him on the DL. Since he came off the DL he's been a bit better. He's also got a much better defense behind him.

Shaknb8k
08-31-2006, 12:06 PM
Good for Williams. He wasnt going to be good here. I seriously doubt this will continue with the Mets. I thought the guy was trash here and hated to see him on the mound. But I didnt want the guy to fall off the baseball map. Im glad to see him doing well somewhere else.

RedsManRick
08-31-2006, 12:27 PM
The Mets signed him, put him in AAA and immediately put him on the DL. Since he came off the DL he's been a bit better. He's also got a much better defense behind him.

Exactly, a bigger park and a much better defense are a large part of the equation.

shredda2000
08-31-2006, 12:35 PM
According to ESPN...Luke Hudson is 7-2 in his last 11 starts with the Royals.

Always Red
08-31-2006, 12:51 PM
According to ESPN...Luke Hudson is 7-2 in his last 11 starts with the Royals.

bigger ballpark, small sample size, better defense....oh, wait, we're talking about the Royals!;)

It's going to be tough to get any free agent starting pitchers to want to sign with the Reds, if no one except Brandon Webb and his sinker can pitch effectively in GAPB. We need to borrow Colorado's humidor, or move the fences back, or make the outfiled walls higher.

My point is that the Reds have let some decent pitching go this year, pitchers that, yes, were truly awful for us (Williams), but pitching that other teams have picked up and made good use of- Hudson, Williams, Hancock. Heck, even Rick White is 1-1 with a 3.97 ERA with the Phils. He was awful for the Reds, too.

What gives? These guys are awful with us, and then at the very least, are mediocre to good pitchers for other teams. Rick White himself said after the trade that he was sorry he did not do better for the Reds (his hometown team) but then again, they did not use him the way he should have been used.

There's something more to it than "he sucks, he's garbage, just DFA him."

When other teams take pitchers out of our garbage can and make effective major league pitchers out of them- well, the problem is us (pitching coaching, talent evaluation??), not them!:dunno:

shredda2000
08-31-2006, 01:07 PM
...When other teams take pitchers out of our garbage can and make effective major league pitchers out of them- well, the problem is us (pitching coaching, talent evaluation??), not them!:dunno:

I agree. In the absence of Vern Ruhle, I wish that Mario Soto would be the pitching coach. I like Tom Hume, but I believe that Soto could bring much needed help (the circle-change to help "miss bats") to the starters and relievers. He seemed to help quite a few in spring training.

terminator
08-31-2006, 01:10 PM
I do agree that we shouldn't have DFA'd Williams. If possible, we should have just put him on the DL then in the minors to see if he improved.

Keep in mind that we have picked up other team's "junk" and gotten some good results -- the string of QS by Lohse, Yan had a 3.60 ERA for us, Guardado has been good when healthy, Schoenweiss has been effective, Franklin has been okay from time-to-time . . . so it's not all one-sided.

Always Red
08-31-2006, 01:23 PM
Keep in mind that we have picked up other team's "junk" and gotten some good results -- the string of QS by Lohse, Yan had a 3.60 ERA for us, Guardado has been good when healthy, Schoenweiss has been effective, Franklin has been okay from time-to-time . . . so it's not all one-sided.

good point!

fewfirstchoice
08-31-2006, 01:52 PM
If you look a little closer at most Reds pithers that have left in the last year or so some have improved.I would say #1 reason is that most major league teams have a pitching coach and the Reds(Hume)do not,well atleast not one that can help in anyway.#2 could be getting out of the gopher hole known as GABP.

redsrule2500
08-31-2006, 01:55 PM
Look at Lohse. I think just a change of pace can help a pticher get on the right path, but if they stay there that's a completely different story.

Jim
08-31-2006, 02:21 PM
Look at Lohse. I think just a change of pace can help a pticher get on the right path, but if they stay there that's a completely different story.

Agreed. For guys like Lohse, switching leagues can be a huge benefit as well. In Williams case, he has a better defense behind him and a bigger park. I bet even Milton could pitch well for the Mets! ;)

CTA513
08-31-2006, 02:26 PM
Agreed. For guys like Lohse, switching leagues can be a huge benefit as well. In Williams case, he has a better defense behind him and a bigger park. I bet even Milton could pitch well for the Mets! ;)

Im pretty sure Williams went on the DL with a shoulder problem not to long after the Mets traded for him. Milton has had knee problems for a while and has lost about 5-7 mph off his fastball since injuring his knee again earlier this year.

jimbo
08-31-2006, 02:30 PM
Look at Lohse. I think just a change of pace can help a pticher get on the right path, but if they stay there that's a completely different story.

The difference is that Loshe actually has good stuff and throws hard, Williams has or does neither.

I'd never look back on giving up this guy. I don't care what Williams numbers are the rest of the season, the Mets can have him.

NJReds
08-31-2006, 02:46 PM
Peterson's been doing a good job this year, too.

In addition to Williams peforming well: John Maine, Chad Bradford, Pedro Feliciano, Darren Oliver have all had great seasons. It will be interesting to see how G. Mota and O. Perez fare under Rick.

Heath
08-31-2006, 03:10 PM
I think the only park that can hold Milton is Yellowstone.

As far as Dave Williams' W/L, ERA, etc., a picture is worth a thousand words -

http://www.empire-com.com/images/flying_Pigs_sml.gif

redsupport
08-31-2006, 04:13 PM
how come hudson has 6 or seven wins as a royal starter. It cant be from the mammoth run support the Royals give him

TRF
08-31-2006, 04:27 PM
I do agree that we shouldn't have traded for Williams.


fixed that for ya. :)

CTA513
08-31-2006, 04:36 PM
how come hudson has 6 or seven wins as a royal starter. It cant be from the mammoth run support the Royals give him

Hudson has a higher ERA than Milton.

REDREAD
08-31-2006, 11:12 PM
how come hudson has 6 or seven wins as a royal starter. It cant be from the mammoth run support the Royals give him

Hudson can pitch a good game every once in awhile. The problem is, that when he's off, he's awful and can't find the plate.

The Reds gave Hudson 3 years plus time in the minors to make something of himself. At some point, you just have to cut bait and give up. There's only 25 roster spots, so you can't hold on to every long shot.

griffeyfreak4
09-01-2006, 12:49 AM
It doesn't matter how good Williams does for the Mets, I will never regret getting rid of him.

jhiller21
09-01-2006, 04:46 AM
Williams has fared well the same way our bulpen did for 8 innings against the Dodgers.

The iceburg had already been hit, but the sinking was inevitable.

Doc. Scott
09-01-2006, 05:07 AM
Peterson's been doing a good job this year, too.

In addition to Williams peforming well: John Maine, Chad Bradford, Pedro Feliciano, Darren Oliver have all had great seasons. It will be interesting to see how G. Mota and O. Perez fare under Rick.

Well, Perez got pounded tonight. Twelve hits and seven earned in three innings.

Doc. Scott
09-01-2006, 05:14 AM
I think the only park that can hold Milton is Yellowstone.

As far as Dave Williams' W/L, ERA, etc., a picture is worth a thousand words -

http://www.empire-com.com/images/flying_Pigs_sml.gif

Well, we're biased, aren't we? Williams had had a modicum of major-league success before coming to Cincinnati. So after some time on the DL that was clearly necessary, he's come back to be the #4/#5 starter he's been in the past. (The question everyone ignores in the hailstorm of abuse and jokes directed at Dave: why the Reds didn't figure out that a guy that could normally throw 88 was throwing 82 might have some arm issue. Our team surgeon's only good at the actual cutting part.)

Luke Hudson, on the other hand, hasn't ever done it for more than a dozen starts or so at a time- even at AAA, really. If he'd been on any team but the Royals after he got mauled as a reliever in April, he'd have gotten released again. But KC, having little talent in Omaha, shrugged and let him collect a paycheck. When they brought him back and stuck him in the rotation, it was a move smacking more of desperation than anything (as he didn't exactly dominate the PCL, either). And in the middle of this so-called Streak of Dominance, he gave up ten runs in the first inning of a start. I don't think his prospects are necessarily that much better than they were when he was wearing Red -it's just the bump from an unfamiliar league. Unlike Williams, who will likely continue to put up his average/mediocre ERA for the foreseeable future.

Razor Shines
09-01-2006, 05:19 AM
It doesn't matter how good Williams does for the Mets, I will never regret getting rid of him.

Well that depends on exactly how good he gets. But yeah, I agree with you. It would be disgustingly ironic though if Williams pitches to Casey in the World Series.

Unassisted
09-01-2006, 10:49 AM
Well that depends on exactly how good he gets. But yeah, I agree with you. It would be disgustingly ironic though if Williams pitches to Casey in the World Series.Would you still say that if Casey converts each of Williams' fat fastballs down the middle into a weak grounder to 2B for a double play?

That there would be some irony. :laugh:

Red Rover
09-07-2006, 10:40 AM
Williams is now 3-0, 2.79 ERA in his last three starts for the Mets.

Always Red
09-07-2006, 10:57 AM
Williams is now 3-0, 2.79 ERA in his last three starts for the Mets.

I noticed that yesterday.

Williams pitched ok here for the first couple of outings (in fact I saw him pitch a nice game against the Pirates in person), and then was beat like a rented mule. The last game he pitched for the Reds he got hammered for 6 runs in the first inning, IIRC.

In retrospect, which is always easy to do, maybe it was a little premature to throw this guy out so quickly. He was hurt, the Mets saw that, rehabbed him and worked him back up. Now, he's pitching for the best team in the NL, admittedly as a #5 starter. But this Reds team could sure use a #5 starter, don't you think?

This goes back, IMO, to the whole medical diagnosis/pitching coach problems the Reds have had over the last few years. It's obvious to me that we are substandard in this area, and it's an area that needs immediate, drastic improvement. Plus, Kriv pulled the trigger too quickly on Williams.

A lot of folks here were on Williams solely because he was traded for the popular Sean Casey, and also the fact that he's a soft tosser. There aren't enough flame throwers and high strikeout pitchers to fill anybody's pitching staff these days; there are going to have to be some guys who can soft toss, locate and change speeds. But it's pretty clear to me that there's a big difference between Dave Williams and Chris Hammond.

Williams was traded to the Mets for Robert Manual, and the Reds also gave the Mets $ in the deal. In effect, Sean Casey was traded for Robert Manual, and money. Obviously, Sean Casey was overvalued by some here on Redszone, but I think he should have brought more to us than that.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of contract Sean can get next year, BTW.

remdog
09-07-2006, 11:06 AM
Good post AR. I'm especially in agreement with the comments about the Reds medical staff and that everyone wants a fireballer but, in reality, they don't exactly grow on tress.

Rem

cincy jacket
09-07-2006, 12:30 PM
Perez turned it around yesterday with a very nice start for the Mets.
IP H R ER BB SO HR
O Perez (W, 3-11) 9.0 5 0 0 1 6 0

jimbo
09-07-2006, 12:47 PM
I think some people just love to keep an eye on players that the Reds have sent away so they can find opportunities to question current management. Give any pitcher enough time and chances and eventually they will have periods where they are decent. The question is will guys like Hudson and Williams continue their current success over an extended period of time? My money says neither will and they will resort back to pitching like their baseball card says they will.

Always Red
09-07-2006, 01:08 PM
I think some people just love to keep an eye on players that the Reds have sent away so they can find opportunities to question current management. Give any pitcher enough time and chances and eventually they will have periods where they are decent. The question is will guys like Hudson and Williams continue their current success over an extended period of time? My money says neither will and they will resort back to pitching like their baseball card says they will.

Jimbo, here's the back of Dave Williams baseball card:


Pitching Glossary

Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
2001 22 PIT NL 3 7 22 18 0 0 1 0 114.0 100 53 47 15 45 57 7 0 472 4 0 3.71 4.36 118 1.272
2002 23 PIT NL 2 5 9 9 0 0 0 0 43.3 38 26 24 9 24 33 4 2 195 2 2 4.98 4.32 87 1.431
2004 25 PIT NL 2 3 10 6 0 0 0 0 38.7 31 21 19 4 13 33 3 0 162 2 0 4.42 4.14 94 1.138
2005 26 PIT NL 10 11 25 25 1 1 0 0 138.7 137 74 68 20 58 88 8 3 600 5 0 4.41 4.27 97 1.406
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
4 Yr WL% .395 17 26 66 58 1 1 1 0 334.7 306 174 158 48 140 211 22 5 1429 13 2 4.25 4.29 101 1.333
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
162 Game Avg 9 14 36 31 0 0 0 0 183.3 167 95 86 26 76 115 12 2 783 7 1 4.25 4.29 101 1.333
Career High 10 11 25 25 1 1 1 0 138.7 137 74 68 20 58 88 8 3 600 5 2 3.71 4.36 118 1.272

I know the formatting's not great, sorry about that. But if you look closely enough you'll see that his career ERA is 4.25, which is .04 below the adjusted league ERA. And no where near the over 6.00 he posted with the Redlegs.

I look back on Dave Williams because we are running out of pitching, we gave him away, and lo and behold, after he undergoes rehab, he's pitching well for the Mets.

Something's not right here, and it's not Dave Williams. I agree that Williams will not keep this up, and he will regress to the same numbers he has on the back of his baseball card. The back of his card shows that he's a better pitcher than Sun-Woo Kim, who is our current #5. I think we gave up on him too soon.

I've been a rather staunch Kriv and Narron supporter this year; I am willing to see if the whole Kearns/Maj thing works out for us. I think this team and organization needs some stability, so I'm good with JN for next year, too.

I can tell you this much; after Williams gets bombed a time or two, there'll be a thread on here alerting us to that, too, and that's fine with me; that's what a place like this is all about. :thumbup:

klw
09-07-2006, 01:25 PM
Rob Manuel since the trade.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=490008

jimbo
09-07-2006, 01:53 PM
I look back on Dave Williams because we are running out of pitching, we gave him away, and lo and behold, after he undergoes rehab, he's pitching well for the Mets.


Actually, Williams is attributing much of his current success to some mechanical changes that the Mets pitching coach suggested to him. It's most likely he would have never pitched as well as he is now with the Reds because Hume would have never made those suggestions.

Even knowing what we know now, I still think it was the right decision at the time. Williams has mediocre stuff and he has to have his location on the money when he pitches or he's worthless. There are countless number of pitchers in this league who fit that same bill.

Always Red
09-07-2006, 01:54 PM
Actually, Williams is attributing much of his current success to some mechanical changes that the Mets pitching coach suggested to him. It's most likely he would have never pitched as well as he is now with the Reds because Hume would have never made those suggestions.



I agree totally with this, jimbo; that was my point.

NJReds
09-07-2006, 02:17 PM
I agree totally with this, jimbo; that was my point.


Rick Peterson has done a great job with the Mets staff this year.

ChatterRed
09-07-2006, 04:03 PM
Yes, Wayne gave up on Williams way too early. I have stated this atleast 10 times on this board in the past several months, namely when suffering through Joe Mays.

Ugh.

oneupper
09-11-2006, 09:16 PM
Dave Williams tonight (9/11) vs. FLA

3 IP 11 H 7 ER 2BB 1K

He's still in...

edit.. Out but on the hook for two more runners in the fourth.

MrCinatit
09-11-2006, 09:17 PM
There is the Dave Williams we have come to know and love.

jimbo
09-11-2006, 09:25 PM
Picked up those two runners and is in the book for 9 ER in 3 IP........he's baaaaaack. Glad he is someone else's problem.

Doc. Scott
09-11-2006, 10:08 PM
So the Reds need someone who can effect mechanical changes in pitchers. This hasn't changed in a good long while, has it? It's not exactly a mystery.

Maybe Vern Ruhle was/is that guy, but he's been sorta indisposed this season.

Tony Cloninger
09-11-2006, 10:57 PM
Williams is like what Tom Browning was after he lost what little fastball he had....and his pinpoint control.

You will get a 6/7 IP game with 1-3 ER for about 3-4 straight games.....than will revert to being bombed for another 2-3 games.

Reminds me of the way Charlie Liebrandt would struggle for the Reds in 1980, after he had a good start with them. He did better when he left, way better than Williams has ever done....even with the same stuff.
CL just pitched in an era that had less players who would work counts.....foul off tons of pitches....wait out pitchers and go the other way with power.
The pre-heavy lifting/steroid/HGH era of the 1980's.

redsupport
09-12-2006, 12:40 AM
yeah Leibrandt for Bob Tufts that was a heck of a trade for the Reds