PDA

View Full Version : Maybe there is a reason that



BlfdVaFan
09-01-2006, 11:33 PM
KGJ has never won anything. He won't run out ground balls and he gives up on balls that should be caught. He is supposed to be a leader and you lead by example. His effort is highly questionable to me once again.

paulrichjr
09-02-2006, 12:30 AM
I usually do NOT agree with statements like this but tonight his running to first was incredible. He should be ashamed. It is becoming a major problem.

In case you didn't see: Todd Walker's bobble alone should have told Jr. to speed up but instead he continued jogging even when Todd's throw pulled the 1B off of the bag...He stayed off of the bag just long enough (about a second or two) for Jr. to get to first while never speeding up. It was a joke.

My 11 year old was even questioning Jr. and he never does that...

(I do not agree with the never wins anything comment)

George Anderson
09-02-2006, 12:35 AM
I dislike seeing any player not give 100% but in Griffeys case I could care less. If he were to injure his leg again and have to go under the knife for the umpteenth time, I wouldnt be suprised if he just hung it up and retired and really who could blame him?? I would rather have Griffey in the lineup not running out ground balls as opposed to a Griffey sitting at home retired.

Phhhl
09-02-2006, 12:41 AM
I think he is under orders not to run out grounders at full speed or play daredevil in the field. The Reds want to at least get the power production for their money for the remainder of this deal, and that's not going to happen when he tears a hammy running out a topper to second. I've seen him turn it on to score on doubles, and I've held my breath every time. I have absolutely no problem with the way Junior plays the game. Do you guys have a short memory?

Now, why he hasn't been moved to a corner outfield position is another matter altogether.

TOBTTReds
09-02-2006, 01:20 AM
Tonight and the drop 3rd k were both pathetic. However, I think this will be the last time I post on his laziness because it is old news. He did it two seasons ago all the time, one epecially bad @ the Cubs (the year he didn't hit a HR til April 30 or so), then had a great few months.

He is what he is. I hear he puts in A TON of effort before games to be a better hitter (don't know how much that shows) and that he has a great work ethic, so I think he is just trying to play it safe on plays like that.

Razor Shines
09-02-2006, 01:34 AM
Tonight and the drop 3rd k were both pathetic. However, I think this will be the last time I post on his laziness because it is old news. He did it two seasons ago all the time, one epecially bad @ the Cubs (the year he didn't hit a HR til April 30 or so), then had a great few months.

He is what he is. I hear he puts in A TON of effort before games to be a better hitter (don't know how much that shows) and that he has a great work ethic, so I think he is just trying to play it safe on plays like that.

I agree, and I agree with Santo on the fact that maybe he is told to play that way, but that's something we probably will not know for sure.

TeamBoone
09-02-2006, 01:49 AM
KGJ has never won anything.

Am I reading this wrong? KGJr has never won anything?????

You must live in a vacuum.... or are very very very young.

crazybob60
09-02-2006, 01:55 AM
I agree, and I agree with Santo on the fact that maybe he is told to play that way, but that's something we probably will not know for sure.


to tell ya the truth, even if he is told not to play that way, well the mentality and baseball player in him or anybody in this case should step up and naturally give that extra percent, so in this case, I truly believe that he is just gimping it along and not being actually told not give it his all. Again, with Narron managing, Griff gets away with this....if someone like Sweet Lou were there or even a Joe Girardi and God forbid say an Ozzie Guillen, good lord, I would hate to see what would brew between griff and those fellas.

Highlifeman21
09-02-2006, 01:59 AM
Am I reading this wrong? KGJr has never won anything?????

You must live in a vacuum.... or are very very very young.

Ok, being only 25, maybe I fall into the very very very young category, since I can only remember KGJ in the playoffs once vs. the Yankees, IIRC. What has KGJ won?

crazybob60
09-02-2006, 02:02 AM
He was the 1997 AL MVP, the 1992 All-Star Game MVP, 10 Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Slugger Awards, 4 single season Home Run titles, and 12-time All Star. I believe that that is what TeamBoone and everybody else who says he has won things are referring to....

Highlifeman21
09-02-2006, 02:07 AM
He was the 1997 AL MVP, the 1992 All-Star Game MVP, 10 Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Slugger Awards, 4 single season Home Run titles, and 12-time All Star. I believe that that is what TeamBoone and everybody else who says he has won things are referring to....

Individual achievement does not correlate to team achievement. See Rodriguez, Alex.

Paint me a pinko commie, but All-Star Game MVPs and All-Star Game nominations mean zip to me. Perceived popularity contests, glorified beauty pagents.

When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

When was the last time KGJ won a Silver Slugger?

When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?

I guess if there is one thing KGJ could potentially be in the running, call it best to never win a World Series. I know there were better than him in that category, but he's still in that club. I guess Ted Williams needs some company.

crazybob60
09-02-2006, 02:10 AM
Individual achievement does not correlate to team achievement. See Rodriguez, Alex.

Paint me a pinko commie, but All-Star Game MVPs and All-Star Game nominations mean zip to me. Perceived popularity contests, glorified beauty pagents.

When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

When was the last time KGJ won a Silver Slugger?

When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?

I guess if there is one thing KGJ could potentially be in the running, call it best to never win a World Series. I know there were better than him in that category, but he's still in that club. I guess Ted Williams needs some company.

I was just answering the question of what Griffey has won. There was no specifications set to it other than what Griffey had won. I won't deny some of the points you have made, but originally the question asked was what he had won....no biggie....

Razor Shines
09-02-2006, 02:28 AM
to tell ya the truth, even if he is told not to play that way, well the mentality and baseball player in him or anybody in this case should step up and naturally give that extra percent, so in this case, I truly believe that he is just gimping it along and not being actually told not give it his all. Again, with Narron managing, Griff gets away with this....if someone like Sweet Lou were there or even a Joe Girardi and God forbid say an Ozzie Guillen, good lord, I would hate to see what would brew between griff and those fellas.
Yes it is pure speculation as to whether he is told to do anything or if he is doing it on his own. That's a play that almost always gets made without an incident, and he was still safe. I don't understand what you are getting at by saying "he's just gimping it along", do you mean he's not trying to get on base or that he doesn't care? People who know do say that he works very hard.

And since we're all speculating, I'll throw my opinion out there that it wouldn't be much different with any of those managers. You're talking about one of the greatest players in the history of the game here (if he had stayed healthy perhaps the greatest) and you don't get there without hard work no matter how talented you are. And great players, not just good, are usually treated differently than normal players. Red Arbach was known for this. And as long as Jr. is working hard to help this team, I have no problem with him taking it easy on obvious outs to stay in the line-up. He had an 0fer tonight but he hit the ball hard and he hit well in August.

LetsGoReds11
09-02-2006, 02:31 AM
KGJ Is Passed Is Prime But He's Still A Good Ball Player..... Don't Tell Me That Pitchers Want To Pitch To Him....They Still Never Do......He Probably Won't Win Another One Of Those Awards But He's Always Above Average...I Want To Hear One Pitcher That Will Want To Pitch To Him

dougdirt
09-02-2006, 02:59 AM
Ken Griffey Jr never won anything? So what. He has played on some bad teams. Last I checked, there were 24 other players on EVERY team he has ever been on. Ever think that maybe they had something to do with him never winning something? If you put Babe Ruth on the 1927 Reds, would he have not been good because they wouldnt have won something? Of course not. Baseball is a team game, and no matter how good one player is, he cant win the game for you single handedly....much less a division, DS or CS or WS. It doesnt work that way.

Ravenlord
09-02-2006, 03:10 AM
Ken Griffey Jr never won anything? So what. He has played on some bad teams. Last I checked, there were 24 other players on EVERY team he has ever been on. Ever think that maybe they had something to do with him never winning something? If you put Babe Ruth on the 1927 Reds, would he have not been good because they wouldnt have won something? Of course not. Baseball is a team game, and no matter how good one player is, he cant win the game for you single handedly....much less a division, DS or CS or WS. It doesnt work that way.

and yet that very thing is what the sports writers ('tards) will try to use keep Trevor Hoffman out of the Hall of Fame.

RFS62
09-02-2006, 07:56 AM
When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

When was the last time KGJ won a Silver Slugger?

When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?



He won the respect of everyone in baseball when he rehabbed his series of injuries, the last of which tore the hamstring completely off the bone and it had to be screwed back.

Every day since then has been a blessing to be able to watch him play.

It cracks me up to hear people question his effort level. Each and every injury he's had came from flat out play, leaving it all on the field. That he's now criticized for not hustling is priceless.




I guess if there is one thing KGJ could potentially be in the running, call it best to never win a World Series. I know there were better than him in that category, but he's still in that club. I guess Ted Williams needs some company.



You're right about one thing. He's in the club with Ted Williams as one of the greatest hittes of all time. About five years after he retires, he'll be in another club with Ted also.

RANDY IN INDY
09-02-2006, 08:28 AM
He won the respect of everyone in baseball when he rehabbed his series of injuries, the last of which tore the hamstring completely off the bone and it had to be screwed back.

Every day since then has been a blessing to be able to watch him play.

It cracks me up to hear people question his effort level. Each and every injury he's had came from flat out play, leaving it all on the field. That he's now criticized for not hustling is priceless.






You're right about one thing. He's in the club with Ted Williams as one of the greatest hittes of all time. About five years after he retires, he'll be in another club with Ted also.

:beerme: Right there with you, buddy!

Highlifeman21
09-02-2006, 09:20 AM
He won the respect of everyone in baseball when he rehabbed his series of injuries, the last of which tore the hamstring completely off the bone and it had to be screwed back.

Every day since then has been a blessing to be able to watch him play.

It cracks me up to hear people question his effort level. Each and every injury he's had came from flat out play, leaving it all on the field. That he's now criticized for not hustling is priceless.






You're right about one thing. He's in the club with Ted Williams as one of the greatest hittes of all time. About five years after he retires, he'll be in another club with Ted also.

Make no mistake, KGJ still has my respect. I believe he was the best player to play between 1990 and 1999, inclusive. Since then, injuries have taken their toll, and it is largely due to effort. But now, I think you do have to question his effort, and his role with this team pertaining to doing what's best for the team. He isn't a dish best served playing CF everyday, nor batting 3rd. Until either or both of these issues are addressed, KGJ is actually hurting this team. I thought I'd never say that, but it's honestly and truly how I feel. I'm not sure if I would label it a true fall from grace, but I definitely feel that I'm watching one of the greater players to ever play the game in the late twilight of his career. I almost feel bad for the guy, b/c he has to know that he isn't the same player he was circa 2000. If he doesn't, then that's the true crime.

RANDY IN INDY
09-02-2006, 09:25 AM
He can still hit. Would love to see him make the move to first, if his legs would allow it.

RedFanAlways1966
09-02-2006, 10:18 AM
KGJ has never won anything. He won't run out ground balls and he gives up on balls that should be caught. He is supposed to be a leader and you lead by example. His effort is highly questionable to me once again.

Never won anything? Enough FACTS have already been posted in regard to this ridiculous statement. Did I mention how ridiculous this statement is? See Michael Jordan and Bulls before Pippen and the rest cam along to help. Ted Williams... ever heard of this "loser"? Why should I bother to go on w/ my post? Oh well...

Won't run out balls? More common sense has been presented with other posts here about injuries and the possibility that mgt. has told him to take it easy on plays that should be outs when MLB players are in the field.

Gives up on balls that should be caught? I guess you are a pro scout and can see these things better than commoners like the rest of us.

Supposed to be a leader? Another "you must know more about this than the rest of us commoners". Who told you this? Are you a clubhouse worker or in the REDS FO?

Questionable to you? I am sure there are a lot of REDS fans who have questions about you right now. That includes me.

mth123
09-02-2006, 11:05 AM
I've posted thoughts about Griffey in other threads, but I'll sum it up here.

First let me say that he is one of my favorite players. I appreciate that he engineered the trade that brought him home and signed for lower than market value with much of it deferred. That said, there is absolutely no denying the fact that he is no longer what he once was.

Defensively, he still has excellent technique, his arm is still ok and he doesn't make many errors. He is, however, a below average runner whose body has thickened and slowed with age and injury. He no longer has the range to be considered anything more than below average as a CF. Many days he is not even adequate. Balls that most CF get to fall in for hits. Hard hit liners that would be singles elsewhere make it to the gap for extra bases. His "great" plays where he dives or slides would be routine for an average CF. A team that is struggling to field a pitching staff and burning through the bullpen can not afford to turn outs into hits like this. This is especially true when considering that the top starters on this staff are fly ball guys. A CF who can go get 'em like Griffey used to is needed.

Offensively, Griffey is still a force. I agree with the crowd that suggests that he should move down to fifth or so in the line-up. He is no longer the annual MVP threat, but he is still a hitter to be feared and that opposing Managers and Pitchers account for when facing the Reds. His OBP has dropped and his plate discipline has been awful, but he has a positive impact on the hitters around him. Does anyone think its a coincidence that Hatteberg is having his best offensive year while hitting in front of Griffey? Or that Dunn was at his best this year when batting second in front of Griffey? Or that Encarnacion emerged as an impact player when batting between Grifey and Dunn?

I'd like to see he and Freel switch spots, but sadly, I agree with those that say Griffey's pride will not let him move from CF. Its only natural to think of yourself as you were in your prime. (I am always surprised at the middle-aged man looking back at me when I look in the mirror.) I don't think he will move willingly unless the Reds acquire some one that he percieves as the defensive equal of what he once was.

Griffey isn't a bad player. He is just playing out of position. He is no more an asset in CF than he would be if he was manning SS or on the mound.

jimbo
09-02-2006, 12:19 PM
I'd like to see he and Freel switch spots, but sadly, I agree with those that say Griffey's pride will not let him move from CF. Its only natural to think of yourself as you were in your prime. (I am always surprised at the middle-aged man looking back at me when I look in the mirror.) I don't think he will move willingly unless the Reds acquire some one that he percieves as the defensive equal of what he once was.


I keep hearing this a lot but I sure would like to know how anyone knows for fact that his "pride" or "ego" is getting in the way of him accepting a move to another position or batting order spot. How does anyone know that he has been asked to move? Or if he hasn't been asked, do we expect a major league player to voluntarily ask to be moved from a position they have played all of their life? Every indication is that Junior is a team player and if the Reds approached him and asked him to move to another position, he may not like it, which would be a natural initial reaction, but I have little doubt that he would do it for the team.

This "pride" and "ego" accusation that people throw at Junior is just baseless speculation.

Team Clark
09-02-2006, 12:31 PM
We must me coming to the end of the season for this stuff to be starting.

TeamBoone
09-02-2006, 12:42 PM
Ok, being only 25, maybe I fall into the very very very young category, since I can only remember KGJ in the playoffs once vs. the Yankees, IIRC. What has KGJ won?

I didn't realize you were referring to the WS. I was thinking of all his batting titles, etc.

PS - WS are not won single handedly by one player alone.

RedFanAlways1966
09-02-2006, 12:50 PM
We must me coming to the end of the season for this stuff to be starting.

Yep. :bang: And what caused this thread?

FACT: Griffey did not run 100% on a ROUTINE grounder to the 2nd baseman (to hell w/ the screws holding parts of his leg together). A ML 2nd-baseman boots the ball and then makes a bad throw when he recovers.

Let's continue with more facts since others don't seem to get the fact-thing:
FACT: Griffey was still SAFE. Ahhhhh... no kidding! HE WAS SAFE! :eek:
FACT: Griffey immediately gets forced at 2nd on a routine 6-4-3 DP hit by Edwin. In hindsight I guess he should have risked blowing up his legs. Yep, that would help.
FACT: The REDS won the game. DID NOT LOSE. This play, where Junior was SAFE, did not have any effect on the game's outcome. None, zero, zilch. But I am sorry for mentioning that obvious oversight by those who start this stuff.
FACT: Junior goes down on what s/b a routine out and we now have Deno or Hollandsworth playing everyday. Gee, that would be better for the team.
FACT: Junior has done this for a couple of years now (after the screws were put into his body). You'd think that it was the 1st time some REDS fans had seen it on one play yesterday.
FACT: Griffey has shown hustle (like scoring from 1st on a double the other night). Accusations of not caring or whatever else are unfounded and ridiculous.
FACT: The guy has enough money to feed a 3rd world country for years. He has lots of trophies and awards (despite some thinking he has never won anything). He is a sure bet for Cooperstown. Do we think he does not want a ring? I do not know him, but I'd bet my 1st-born that he'd love to get a ring.

I hope that is not too much FACT for some. Sometimes FACTS are tricky things, but I think the above facts are fairly simple to understand... for most anyway. ;)

TeamBoone
09-02-2006, 12:50 PM
Individual achievement does not correlate to team achievement. See Rodriguez, Alex.

Paint me a pinko commie, but All-Star Game MVPs and All-Star Game nominations mean zip to me. Perceived popularity contests, glorified beauty pagents.

When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

When was the last time KGJ won a Silver Slugger?

When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?

I guess if there is one thing KGJ could potentially be in the running, call it best to never win a World Series. I know there were better than him in that category, but he's still in that club. I guess Ted Williams needs some company.


That's because team achievement is exactly that... TEAM. KGJr certainly did his part for his team; had others on his team done as well (or nearly as well) as INDIVIDUALS, perhaps the TEAM would have made it to a WS.

That said, that was not the point of my post. The poster who started this thread asked the question, "what has he ever won?" while not being specific that he was referring to the World Series. One man alone does not go to/win the WS (nor does one man alone botch it, usually).

Regarding your "timeline" for the last time Griffey ever won anything, what difference does that make (especially to the question posed... "WHAT HAS HE EVER WON")? We all know he's not the player he used to be... that should be no surprise nor should it in any way overshadow his past accomplishments.

BTW, last year he won Comeback Player of the Year... IMHO, that's also worth something.

(what has he ever won?... she mutters under her breath. what a joke.)

RedFanAlways1966
09-02-2006, 12:57 PM
PS - WS are not won single handedly by one player alone.

Exactly. Even a sport with only 5 players on the playing surface at one time (basketball) has this too. Ask one of the greatest ever.... MJ.

To even mention that as an accountable "problem" to a single player is ridiculous. Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb, etc, ...

Cedric
09-02-2006, 01:01 PM
Individual achievement does not correlate to team achievement. See Rodriguez, Alex.

Paint me a pinko commie, but All-Star Game MVPs and All-Star Game nominations mean zip to me. Perceived popularity contests, glorified beauty pagents.

When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

When was the last time KGJ won a Silver Slugger?

When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?

I guess if there is one thing KGJ could potentially be in the running, call it best to never win a World Series. I know there were better than him in that category, but he's still in that club. I guess Ted Williams needs some company.

Did you post that garbage yourself? Individual achievement does not help a team? Come again? Please explain in full detail what the hell you are talking about. Punishing Griffey for playing on average to bad teams is just stupid.

What in the world does this post mean? Did someone say he hasn't won anything since 99?

If you are gonna try and be sarcastic and cute when mouthing a legend like Griffey, at least read the prior posts.

Cooper
09-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Relative to his peers (other center fielders) -i think you could make the case that he's the teams weakest regular (except for Clayton-is he a regular?) from an evaluation standpoint. I know he's a good person. I know he tries hard and has done a nice job coming back from injury. He is a winner. Relative to his peers he ranks below average.

MaineRed
09-02-2006, 02:45 PM
If Griffey ran hard on all these routine grounders to the middle infielders what has the higher chance of happening, him reaching safely a time or two or him tearing up his leg again?

Thought so.

Now ask the same question about Ryan Freel or Brandon Phillips or even Adam Dunn. For them and just about everyone else, the chances are better that they will reach base than blow their hamstring.

Some guys earn the right to throw in the towel when they hit it right at someone and Griffey is in this class. The injuries he has sustained give him that right. As Santo mentioned, Griffey turns it on once he reaches base. There is no loafing when he has a chance to score.

4256 Hits
09-02-2006, 03:00 PM
Griffey on a team is the last reason none of his teams have won the WS. He has been a great player and still is a good one.

Him not running out ground balls only bother me a little bit (because very slim chance to 2nd baseman screw it up) but what I really dislike is the singles off the out field wall (which there were more the last two years than this year) because he thought they were HR and was jogging to 1st base and can't make it to 2nd.

RedFanAlways1966
09-02-2006, 03:04 PM
... but what I really dislike is the singles off the out field wall (which there were more the last two years than this year) because he thought they were HR and was jogging to 1st base and can't make it to 2nd.

I agree. Such is the life of a HR hitter in today's game. When I was a kid my Dad would say that you run like there is tornado chasing you until you see one of the umps doing the "finger-twirl" sign indicating a HR. Of course... that was never much of a concern to this non-power hitter!

Bobcat J
09-02-2006, 03:10 PM
When was the last time KGJ won anything post 1999?


2005 - Comeback Player of the Year

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051005&content_id=1239021&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Highlifeman21
09-02-2006, 07:16 PM
Did you post that garbage yourself? Individual achievement does not help a team? Come again? Please explain in full detail what the hell you are talking about. Punishing Griffey for playing on average to bad teams is just stupid.

What in the world does this post mean? Did someone say he hasn't won anything since 99?

If you are gonna try and be sarcastic and cute when mouthing a legend like Griffey, at least read the prior posts.


Obviously you misread my post.

Both Griffey and ARod have been the best respective player in the game at their time, but on teams that just couldn't get it done come World Series time. For Griffey, it was some underachieving/mediocre Mariners teams. For Arod, he's been on Seattle, Texas and now the Yankees, all of which have been historic underachievers. I'm not punishing either player, I'm just saying they've been great players that don't have rings.

Since 1999, Griffey's won a Comeback Award, that's it. 2000 was the only year he put up numbers not far from his career norms. 2001-2005 (yes, even the Comeback year) he dealt largely with injuries that have taken a toll on him and have reduced him from the greatest player to play in the 90s to a player who isn't even the best on his team now. It's not a dig on Junior, but rather an observation.

I'm not mouthing a legend at all. I'm simply making an observation that 2001 to the present, he's been a below average defensive CF, and has put up offensive numbers that clearly show he no longer belongs in the 3 hole. You can't even begin to tell me he's the same player circa 1997 that he is 2006.

JEA
09-02-2006, 08:07 PM
My thoughts on this are fairly erratic, so I'd have a tough time putting it into one cohorent post. It's impossible to state my stance with a single thesis-like sentence, and I think others are having the same problem. But here are the things that keep coming to mind:

- I understand that very, very, very few players actually run at 100% at all times. Sure, it'd be great for kids to see that, but in reality, the risk isn't worth the reward to run full steam on an obvious routine pop-up or groundout.

- With that being said, these two instances of Junior not running it out ARE NOT such cases. These aren't routine popouts or groundouts. These are plays in which just a small amount of effort could make the difference between making an out or not.

- If Junior's being told to take it easy, then Jerry Narron or the medical team or whoever else is telling him to do this should step up and say something. Junior's going to continue getting verbally pounded by many fans as this happens, and if it's not his fault, it's just not fair that this is happening.

- If it is, in fact, Junior's decision not to give the full effort, then he should explain why. If it's for medical reasons and to remain healthy for potentially being in the playoffs, I can almost understand where he's coming from. If you're not healthy enough to run out a grounder, then I'd really question why you should be starting, especially in center field. But at least I'd respect you for looking at the big picture and the potential impact to the team.

- If all players were judged equally, Junior wouldn't be starting. I understand that some fans feel that certain players have earned the right to do or not to do certain things. I'm not one of those people in most circumstances, but I can respect those who are. But no one can honestly say that a player like Chris Denorfia, Todd Hollandsworth, Rich Aurilia or Juan Castro wouldn't be blasted twice as much as Junior was if you put them into those two situations we're talking about. Granted, the spotlight's a little brighter on a megastar like Junior, but the people on the board are smarter than your average fans, they watch the game much more closely, and they would never stand for such a lack of effort by a run-of-the-mill player.

- In my honest opinion, the reason that Junior isn't moved to one of the corner outfield positions or first base (and wasn't moved from third in the batting order) is the same reason he doesn't have to run at 100%. He isn't held to the same standards as everyone else. Do I think it's fair? Honestly, who gives a damn? I doubt Narron or the front office or Junior does. I doubt most fans do either. Perhaps that's part of the problem. No one really gives a damn what the average fan thinks anymore.

- I just wish that people who defended Junior so easily because of his character, work habits and career accomplishments would consider the same criteria when they blast other players as worthless. Junior's often praised for working so hard, but no matter how hard some other players work to improve, they're trashed constantly because they produce disappointing results. Rich Aurilia has, in no way, accomplished what Junior has, but it took forever for many fans to show any appreciation at all for his contributions to the team. I can understand the argument that he was taking time away from better options (Freel and EE, for example), but if Junior surpassed expectations as much as Aurilia has this season, fans would be screaming for him to be this year's MVP. Yet, I doubt anyone would defend Aurilia to the point that Junior gets defended around here.

- But most importantly, I think nothing will ever be accomplished or discussed in a civil manner if people continue to spark debates in the manner the original poster did. It's an obvious attempt to pick a fight. And it succeeded. Sadly, it's obvious the person's mind was made up before any of us ever responded. It just makes me appreciate the well-thought-out, persuasive and considerate posts and posters even more. Work on your delivery if you really want people to respect your opinion.

RedFanAlways1966
09-02-2006, 09:05 PM
- With that being said, these two instances of Junior not running it out ARE NOT such cases. These aren't routine popouts or groundouts. These are plays in which just a small amount of effort could make the difference between making an out or not.

A nice post, JEA. Just want to reiterate that Griffey was SAFE on the error by Todd Walker. Sure he would have been out if Walker makes a decent throw after booting the ball. But he was SAFE nonetheless. And it was a routine play for Todd Walker. Where he was when the ball got to him was not a routine place, but he was there b/c of the shift that most teams use on Griffey and Dunn. I honestly do not think Junior knew that Walker booted the ball b/c on the replay it looked like his head was down as he was "running" to 1st. Had he known I'd guess that he would have kicked it up a notch.

I do not like the non-full-run either. But it is obviously relative to his legs. Nothing to do with his ego or his non-concern as some here portray it. The position he plays can be argued and I do not argue back. However, I think his bat deserves to be in the REDS current lineup. A below average year for Junior this year at the plate (although 26 HRS is 2nd to Dunn). He has been hitting of late. But no one else on that bench gets the respect of opposing managers and pitchers like Junior. They know what he is capable of... even w/ his legs. And they make a living playing the game.

MaineRed
09-02-2006, 09:51 PM
How can people not understand what Junior has gone through and give him a break?

25% of Griffey beats the snot out of 100% of Hollandsworth which is why people are more willing to defend Griffey. He has earned it. Hollandsworth hasn't earned jack.

Griffey is not lazy and he cares. He wants to play in the postseason, not be another reason (due to injury) why the Reds missed out, AGAIN.

If Griffey so called hustled on all these routine grounders that get some so worked up, how many more wins do the Reds have?

And how many less do they have if Junior had been out since April with a hamstring injury?

JEA
09-02-2006, 11:12 PM
If Griffey so called hustled on all these routine grounders that get some so worked up, how many more wins do the Reds have?

And how many less do they have if Junior had been out since April with a hamstring injury?

This has nothing to do with the original subject of this post, but it seems like a good point of discussion.

Frankly, I'm not sure if it would have made any impact at all - neither negative nor positive - had he been out for the season. But I think you can make the case that the team may lose more games with Junior in the lineup -- simply because a manager's options seem to be limited when Junior's playing.

Griffey's .805 OPS is 6th-best on the team right now (behind Ross, Encarnacion, Dunn, Aurilia and Hatteberg) and 7th-best if you count Kearns.

That wouldn't be so bad... if he weren't batting third in the lineup 97% of the season. The fact that someone like Junior will automatically get to bat 3rd or 4th if he's playing, it creates a problem. The heart of the lineup has a guy with a below-league-average .310 on-base percentage (though he does have a decently above-league-average slugging percentage). Considering the options, the fact that Griffey automatically gets prime placement in the order can actually have a negative impact in the long run.

Is the lineup better without Junior all together? No, but this year, it's making the decision a little tougher to determine (simply because he won't be moved lower in the lineup if he's slumping). Junior WILL help those batting around him because even an off year for Junior still creates problems for opposing pitchers. But putting a guy with with this year's stats in the three-hole, especially when you have better options, isn't going to help your offense much.

When you also take into consideration that Junior will play centerfield and only centerfield when he's in the lineup, you can make the argument that he's also weakening the defense. Again, I think better centerfield options are available (Freel, Denorfia or Kearns if he were playing there in the first half), so it's hard to say the defense would contribute to more losses if Junior weren't in the lineup.

So basically, having Griffey is a good thing. But having Griffey with so few options on how you can use him seems to be a negative for the team. If this were my time, I'd LOVE to have Junior on it -- but only if I could use him how and where he benefits the club the most.

NastyBoy
09-04-2006, 02:35 AM
Obviously you misread my post.

Both Griffey and ARod have been the best respective player in the game at their time, but on teams that just couldn't get it done come World Series time. For Griffey, it was some underachieving/mediocre Mariners teams. For Arod, he's been on Seattle, Texas and now the Yankees, all of which have been historic underachievers. I'm not punishing either player, I'm just saying they've been great players that don't have rings.

Since 1999, Griffey's won a Comeback Award, that's it. 2000 was the only year he put up numbers not far from his career norms. 2001-2005 (yes, even the Comeback year) he dealt largely with injuries that have taken a toll on him and have reduced him from the greatest player to play in the 90s to a player who isn't even the best on his team now. It's not a dig on Junior, but rather an observation.

I'm not mouthing a legend at all. I'm simply making an observation that 2001 to the present, he's been a below average defensive CF, and has put up offensive numbers that clearly show he no longer belongs in the 3 hole. You can't even begin to tell me he's the same player circa 1997 that he is 2006.

WOW! nice observation! Comparing a 97 27 year old griffey to a 06 36 year old griffey. Yeah he has lost a little bit. Freaking brilliant observation.

Highlifeman21
09-04-2006, 02:05 PM
WOW! nice observation! Comparing a 97 27 year old griffey to a 06 36 year old griffey. Yeah he has lost a little bit. Freaking brilliant observation.


And this post contributes what exactly to the conversation/discussion?

There's a reason you have 30 rep points and 500 post.

NastyBoy
10-02-2006, 02:09 PM
And this post contributes what exactly to the conversation/discussion?

There's a reason you have 30 rep points and 500 post.

The reason why I have 500 posts and now 40 rep points is I don't care that people like you think. Keep saving up those rep points for me!

flyer85
10-02-2006, 02:12 PM
stuff that a guy named Reggie Jackson was famous for. But I guess he ever won anything either.