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View Full Version : Not Necissary to Spend Boatloads in Offseason



Z-Fly
09-05-2006, 12:59 PM
I Have been browsing other threads and people are saying we need to spend Tons of money in the off season. IMO I don't think that is necessary.

The argument has been made that we need to sign a big time free agent middle infielder. Wile I can see the benefit of that, I ask the question why can't we flip BP to SS and place Rich at 2nd.

I have also read that Tori Hunter would be a great pick-up for the Reds. Yes that also would be nice. But what about just flipping Freel to Center and letting Jr. play Right. IMO Deno is better than he has showed. I believe that he can be a good forth outfielder and play 3-4 times a week filling in for JR and Freel. They have both showed that time off improves their performance. Let us say that JR somehow gets hurt during the seasons final months (which almost always happens), could Jay Bruce be ready for a late season call up if he shows us anything in AA next year?

The Rotation doesn't need a large tune-up I don't believe. Harang has put up #1 Starter numbers this year. Arroyo is a good #2. Milton is a decent at best #3. The jury is still out on Lohse for #4 but looks ok so far. Maybe EZ could fill in the 5 spot next year. Will Homer be ready for the bigs? Or we could bring in a cheap #5 from free agency.

I think the biggest hole is the closer spot. It could be debated the Everyday Eddie could fill the spot for one more year. I believe when healthy we actually do have some nice young arms in there (Jewski, Bray, Coffey, Belisle).

What do you fellas think? I think we are in better shape then some let us believe.

killuminati35
09-05-2006, 01:19 PM
I do hope that BP gets swapped over to short, but I'm not sure of what I think of RA at second. I actually like RA, but I'm not sure how much longer he can put up these numbers. Plus, platooning him around the infield and giving him some days off, I think, has helped his numbers. I don't think he will preform like he has this year if he played everyday at second. Ideally we do pick up a solid middle infielder.

Z-Fly
09-05-2006, 01:41 PM
Plus, platooning him around the infield and giving him some days off, I think, has helped his numbers.

How many days off are you suggesting? He is playing almost every day now. Could Juan fill in some of those days?

Always Red
09-05-2006, 01:42 PM
I Have been browsing other threads and people are saying we need to spend Tons of money in the off season. IMO I don't think that is necessary.

The argument has been made that we need to sign a big time free agent middle infielder. Wile I can see the benefit of that, I ask the question why can't we flip BP to SS and place Rich at 2nd.

I have also read that Tori Hunter would be a great pick-up for the Reds. Yes that also would be nice. But what about just flipping Freel to Center and letting Jr. play Right. IMO Deno is better than he has showed. I believe that he can be a good forth outfielder and play 3-4 times a week filling in for JR and Freel. They have both showed that time off improves their performance. Let us say that JR somehow gets hurt during the seasons final months (which almost always happens), could Jay Bruce be ready for a late season call up if he shows us anything in AA next year?

The Rotation doesn't need a large tune-up I don't believe. Harang has put up #1 Starter numbers this year. Arroyo is a good #2. Milton is a decent at best #3. The jury is still out on Lohse for #4 but looks ok so far. Maybe EZ could fill in the 5 spot next year. Will Homer be ready for the bigs? Or we could bring in a cheap #5 from free agency.

I think the biggest hole is the closer spot. It could be debated the Everyday Eddie could fill the spot for one more year. I believe when healthy we actually do have some nice young arms in there (Jewski, Bray, Coffey, Belisle).

What do you fellas think? I think we are in better shape then some let us believe.

That sounds an awful lot like reshuffling the deck and hoping for a better result next year.

I think you over rate Harang and Arroyo both by one spot (I think they're 2 and 3 in the NL), but otherwise, agree with most of what you say, especially that closer is the most obvious hole for next year.

No way can you compete without a closer. It was ok to go into this year without one because no ne expected the Reds to be in the thick of it. It becamse pretty apparent early on that no one we had was capable of doing the job. Weathers and Coffey have both pitched well this year, except for in the closer role.

In addition to closer, I think we need a starting pitcher (as much as you can afford to spend) and another outfielder, hopefully one with pop.

We should be set at middle relief for next year ;)

REDREAD
09-05-2006, 04:56 PM
No offense, Z-fly, but you're basically saying to just return everyone from this year. We should expect some of the older guys like Aurillia and Hattenberg to decline. Guarado might not be back. Weathers has been good this year, but he'll be another year older.

The team has fallen below .500, despite getting some career years out of some players. This team needs some more talent.

mth123
09-05-2006, 07:26 PM
This team needs more guys who can play both offense and defense. That is the reason to bring in a 2B, SS or CF. You win with defense up the middle but they need to be able to hit too. We do not have a combination of players to do both. Bring in a bat that can play defense and one of the guys you mentioned is available off the bench everyday and there is some depth in case of injury.

RedsManRick
09-05-2006, 09:09 PM
Add another legitimate starter to the rotation and suddenly we have a solid rotation. Personally I think the offense is set, particularly with Junior in RF and the Deno/Freel platoon in CF. The bullpen could use a high quality arm -- god knows we have enough quanitity.

Seriously though, if we can add a real starter through FA Lohse/Ramirez/etc #5 (keeping it warm for Homer) and suddenly we have a major league rotation. Phillips to SS and Junior to RF improves the defense.

If we're able to up the payroll to the mid 70's, I would without a doubt spent it on a starter. Actually, the pitcher I would spend it on isn't even on most people's radar. Let the Mets and Yanks fight over Zito and Schmidt. Meanwhile I'd get out there and offer Vincente Padilla 3/21.

mth123
09-05-2006, 09:15 PM
If we're able to up the payroll to the mid 70's, I would without a doubt spent it on a starter. Actually, the pitcher I would spend it on isn't even on most people's radar. Let the Mets and Yanks fight over Zito and Schmidt. Meanwhile I'd get out there and offer Vincente Padilla 3/21.

I think Padilla is worth a shot. Good call! I didn't mention pitchers because they will all be expensive and not sure the few that would be an upgrade would be available or even worth the moeny/years it would take. But Padilla is a good call. I still think they need another OF. I like Freel in his former supersub role (playing 80% of the time) and I'm not sold on Deno.

RedsManRick
09-05-2006, 09:43 PM
I think Padilla is worth a shot. Good call! I didn't mention pitchers because they will all be expensive and not sure the few that would be an upgrade would be available or even worth the moeny/years it would take. But Padilla is a good call. I still think they need another OF. I like Freel in his former supersub role (playing 80% of the time) and I'm not sold on Deno.

But if you sign an OF, you've basically told Deno, "you'll never get a shot." The guy has nothing left to prove in the minors and the kind of guy who we could get that would be a clear upgrade over what we have would cost as much if not more than the starter (Hunter, Lee, etc.). Meanwhile, we have a virtual black hole in the 5th spot in the rotation and the only guy who's shown himself able to pitch is Elizardo Ramirez, who is injured and fell apart at the end of the season. Milton is in the last year of his deal.

Zito is a flyball pitcher coming from a pitcher friendly park. He walks a lot of guys and his strikout rate is trending in the wrong direction. Schmit is a better bet, but his age makes me hesistant to give him the long term deal somebody will be willing to pony up for. There just aren't any "aces" out there worth ace money. Padilla adds a solid arm without killing the budget. If Deno doesn't pan out, we'll have Milton & LaRue coming of the books with room to sign an OF if necessary.

mth123
09-05-2006, 09:56 PM
To be a little more specific, I would only sign an OF who is a Hunter or Cameron type who would be a defensive plus plus playing in the middle of the field and adds to the offense as well. That would improve the pitching a lot. I just have no confidence in Deno as a hitter but would take him over another player who leaves us with Griffey in CF again. I know he had success in AAA, I'm just not sold.

paulrichjr
09-05-2006, 11:52 PM
I agree sort of but if we want different results we have to change more than just one pitcher. I have always loved Griffey until the last few days when I actually got to start watching him on FSN. His lack of hustle and his poor play in the outfield is costing us a lot over 162 games. I would love to see him traded to an AL team or as others have said moved to right field and told to at least run out the close plays at first.

terminator
09-06-2006, 12:05 AM
If we're going to sign a CF, what about Juan Pierre? I think he just has a one year deal with the Cubs. He still has great speed and plays good defense. His hitting numbers are down a bit the last couple years, but they are still good. And I assume he wouldn't break the bank.

fewfirstchoice
09-06-2006, 12:27 AM
Heres what I think Cincy should do thios off-season to make the Reds a playoff team.
First we need another bat bad in the middle of the order,and a defensive outfielder to play center.I say go after Vernon Wells.He has decent pop with the bat(hit around 280-290 with 27-30 homers a year and 80 to 100 RBI,s also)and he has a great glove,not Tori Hunter good but good.And I believe he will be cheaper than Hunter.
Second we need to add another quality arm to the rotation.We brought in Arroyo this season now if we could bring in another arm of his caliber the staff would be solid.Maybe a Mark Moulder(spelling) if he can get it together,or someone in his groundball style.
Third we need a quality closer,maybe try Gagne out if the Dodgers cut him lose.But we need someone to close and get the job done.
Now if we can do something close to this I believe the Reds will be a major factor next season thanks.

cincinnati chili
09-06-2006, 12:29 AM
Not necissary to spell.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

schroomytunes
09-06-2006, 12:59 AM
I think we need to make a couple of moves this offseason. I think we do need to add a bat to the lineup, our offense is becoming stale. Also we do need to add another arm to the rotation and the bullpen. Particularly the closer spot. Guys that I would like to see in uniform next year for us are:

1)CF-Juan Pierre- assumes the leadoff spot and provides solid defense up the middle, and gives us 30+ stolen bases while batting .280ish.

2)Ted Lilly-is a lefty FA after the year and would provide us with another #3 starter. There is no reason for us to go out and get a #1 when we clearly cannot afford it. We can plug him into the rotation and expect 180 innings and between 12-15 wins.

3)Chad Bradford-solid guy out of the pen, would assume the middle relief role, and has pitched well up in NY. He would fit nicely in with our budget and allow us to look at trading avenues.

In turn I would expect our roster to look like this:
lineup:
1)pierre-cf
2)hatteberg-1b
3)Dunn-lf
4)EE-3b
5)Griffey-rf
6)Aurilia-2b
7)Phillips-ss
8)Ross-c

starters
1)harang 2)Arroyo 3)Lilly 4)Milton 5)Lohse

Bullpen
Closer) Lizard 2)Bray 3)Majewski 4)Bradford 5)Coffey 6)Cormier 7)Franklin

Bench
utility) Freel SS/2b) Castro OF) Denorfia C)Larue C)Valentin

Guys who then can be used as trade bait-Larue, Ross, Belisle, Standridge. I think we are much better with those 3 moves(pierre,Bradford,Lilly) and lizard has the makeup to be a decent closer. IMHO

Doc. Scott
09-06-2006, 02:10 AM
Pierre as a leadoff hitter is a lot of expense for not a lot of on-base percentage.

crazybob60
09-06-2006, 03:31 AM
I am also tending to think we don't need to spend alot in the offseason for position players, but we do need to spend some for some pitching and although we have acquired alot of arms here during the season in the bullpen, we still need to sure up our arms there during the offseason because a lot of those guys are older and just fill-ins for this season is what I am sensing or at least getting older. Such as Cormier, Guardado, etc. And the position players, well we have to get some of the guys from the minors up, and although it may not be right at the beginning of the season, I would say by the AS Break, we have guys like Votto up here. And then sometime in the relative future of course we will have Homer Bailey up here and then within the next year we will have the Jay Bruce's and the BJ Szymanski's and the Chris Valakai's and such. Although that may be over the course of 1-2 maybe 3 seasons tops, I have a funny feeling that is what Wayne Krivsky is trying to do and hold up until then because then we will have a talented, YOUNG team that was built from within that we can focus and build around and also have talented guys who have experience in the clubhouse that are still fairly young themselves such as Phillips and Dunn and Encarnacion, yes Encarnacion, who will be no older than what 26 or 27 when these guys above are fully acclimated in the majors and he would be looked upon for advice....I mean, I have thought about this long and hard and why else would Wayne be traded and signing all of the 'stopgap' kind of guys such as Todd Hollandsworth and Royce Clayton???? Just something that I have been pondering and thinking about, don't know if there is an ounce of truth to it, but there have been stranger things that have happened before, ya know?

mth123
09-06-2006, 06:42 AM
If we're going to sign a CF, what about Juan Pierre? I think he just has a one year deal with the Cubs. He still has great speed and plays good defense. His hitting numbers are down a bit the last couple years, but they are still good. And I assume he wouldn't break the bank.

I think they need more pop. If you are going to sign Pierre, you may as well stick with Deno. I vote Hunter and like the Padilla idea. There should be enough cash for both if we can dump Larue. Remember the new TV deal for cincy with Fox Sports Ohio. Subtract the money spent on:

Paul Wilson, Dave Williams, Tony Womack (minus the money the yanks paid), the money that we kicked in for Casey, Chris Hammond, Rick White, Kent Mercker, and whatever savings from trading Kearns/Lopez and letting Clayton go that is pushing $15 Million freed-up.

If we dump Larue, sign Harang LT and maybe Aurilia (for one year). Factor in raises for guys like Cormier, Hatte and Javy and add in TV money, there should still be money available. Maybe I'm forgetting something. This is off the top of my head. Seems like Freel, Dunn (at maybe a bump in pay) and Arroyo are already signed and Ross, Phillips and Encarnacion should not go up much until 2008. If you can't do it all, I let Aurilia walk and use Harris in that role or bring in a cheaper alternative to go with Freel at 2B and/or Hatte at 1B (Votto's coming).

RedLegSuperStar
09-06-2006, 07:19 AM
We're not going anywhere next year without an offensive bat or two and and middle of the rotation starter or higher. If it costs a some valuable prospects excluding Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce.. to get Vernon Wells here I'd be open for it. Yea he set to make big money but has had a issue with Toronto this season and maybe this could be the Reds chance to obtain that leathel extra bat and move this offense out of shambles.

If we got Wells then I would go after Lilly.. If not then I throw the money at Jason Schmidt(even though M's look like his next destination), Barry Zito (New York), Mark Beurle (ChiSox), or Mike Mussina.

RedsManRick
09-06-2006, 08:27 AM
Juan Pierre is a career .303/.352/.378. Yes, he steals a lot of bases. However, Ryan Freel is .275/.368/.384 for his career. Why go out and spend at least 6MM per on Juan Pierre, when we already have his twin on the roster?

Z-Fly
09-06-2006, 12:48 PM
Juan Pierre is a career .303/.352/.378. Yes, he steals a lot of bases. However, Ryan Freel is .275/.368/.384 for his career. Why go out and spend at least 6MM per on Juan Pierre, when we already have his twin on the roster?

This is the whole point of my thread. In most cases, unless you spend the big cash. The grass isn't greener. My guess is we are not going to have tons to spend. A previous poster stated that we should have around 15 mill free, which is probably true. 15 mill doesn't go as far as it used to. You most likely could not sign a "#1 starter" with that much. If you could, who closes games for you?

schroomytunes
09-06-2006, 06:12 PM
Like I said earlier there's no need to overhaul the roster this offseason we are pretty solid in a lot of areas. We need to add a couple of good seasoned players to next years team, but dont overpay for them either. IMHO, I think our offense reminds me of a softball team, very little speed, all power, but no finesse. We are bunched up with guys @ the .250 mark, we need a Berkman type guy. Some guys I like this offseason:

RF-Shannon Stewart-coming off of an injury, would be the middle of the order guy we need a solid #3 or 5 hitter.

CF-Juan Pierre-improves defense, team speed, and solid leadoff hitter, allows us to move Griffey to Right.

RP-Scott Schoenweis-has done a good job in middle relief, good resign.

SP-Mark Redman(L)-solid #5 starter, gives you innings, and @ 10-15 wins, for @ 4-5 million a year.

SP-Vincente Padillia-solid #3 starter, 180+innings @12-15 wins but he will command @ 7 million per.

SP-Ted Lilly(L)-Solid #4-5 starter, 180+innings @ 10-15 wins for @ 5-6 million per.

RP-Aaron Fultz(L) or Chad Bradford(R)- both are solid middle relievers.

LF-David Delucci- solid 4th outfielder, good bench guy, can start @ 100 games or more.

Just some guys that fit into the budget, that I would like in a Cincy uniform.