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NPCoach
09-06-2006, 10:22 PM
How can the Marlins build from scratch and win a World Series, dismantle and rebuild to win the World Series again, dismantle and rebuild to be more of a contender for the forseeable future than the Reds? The Marlins have done a good job of getting quality when they traded off their big name players through the years.

jimbo
09-06-2006, 10:26 PM
How can the Marlins build from scratch and win a World Series, dismantle and rebuild to win the World Series again, dismantle and rebuild to be more of a contender for the forseeable future than the Reds?

Not just the Reds......a good 50% of the league could ask that same question.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 10:33 PM
How can the Marlins build from scratch and win a World Series, dismantle and rebuild to win the World Series again, dismantle and rebuild to be more of a contender for the forseeable future than the Reds? The Marlins have done a good job of getting quality when they traded off their big name players through the years.they make the hard decisions(the ones the Reds have refused to make) of who to build around and who is expandable and combine it with solid scouting.

mth123
09-06-2006, 10:38 PM
they make the hard decisions(the ones the Reds have refused to make) of who to build around and who is expandable and combine it with solid scouting.


Agree, but the solid scouting part is the key. The hard decisions are a little less hard when there are solid young players ready to step in. The Reds haven't had that since the "crown jewel" years.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 10:41 PM
Agree, but the solid scouting part is the key. The hard decisions are a little less hard when there are solid young players ready to step in. The Reds haven't had that since the "crown jewel" years.The problems weren't created by WK, but by his predecessors. Although it looks like DanO did draft two studs in his two years.

The issue I have with WK is his draft this year. The Reds might have had a lights out closer next year if they had drafted Lincecum.

jimbo
09-06-2006, 10:43 PM
Agree, but the solid scouting part is the key. The hard decisions are a little less hard when there are solid young players ready to step in.

It's also a little less hard when you've conceded the fact that you are building for the future and have no illusions of contending short-term. The fact that the Marlins are in the hunt this season is something nobody expected, even Marlins management. If Castellini came in this past off-season and decided to clean house and build for the future, Reds fans would have gone ballistic.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 10:47 PM
It's also a little less hard when you've conceded the fact that you are building for the future and have no illusions of contending short-term. The fact that the Marlins are in the hunt this season is something nobody expected, even Marlins management. that's right but it was a nice bonus. The Reds were just glad to be in it but didn't do a good job of assessing how they got there and if it was likely to continue. The Marlins thus having no expectation had no temptation to mortgage tomorrow for today. The Reds did that and now have nothing to show for it and are in worse shape for the future.

jimbo
09-06-2006, 10:53 PM
The Reds did that and now have nothing to show for it and are in worse shape for the future.

If you are basing that on the fact that the Reds may have given up some bargaining power for the upcoming off-season, I could agree with that. If you are basing it on talent alone, I don't think the Reds are any worse shape than they were before.

traderumor
09-06-2006, 10:54 PM
Um, the Marlins are a .500 team. While I suppose that is an accomplishment, is it any moreso than the Reds (who were also picked to be awful) in a weak NL? Would they be .500 if it were not for a weak NL? Would their .500 record be noteworthy were it not for a weak NL?

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:02 PM
If you are basing that on the fact that the Reds may have given up some bargaining power for the upcoming off-season, I could agree with that. If you are basing it on talent alone, I don't think the Reds are any worse shape than they were before.I somehow think that the Reds wouldn't get anything if they offered Majewski and Bray around.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:03 PM
Um, the Marlins are a .500 team. and have a boatload of young talent, unlike the Reds.

jimbo
09-06-2006, 11:07 PM
I somehow think that the Reds wouldn't get anything if they offered Majewski and Bray around.

I'm not so sure I agree. They are both young, have good stuff, and have had success......that's a good amount of upside.

UC_Ken
09-06-2006, 11:09 PM
I'm not so sure I agree. They are both young, have good stuff, and have had success......that's a good amount of upside.

I dont think there would be a market for Majeski because of injury concerns. I think there would be a lot of takers for Bray being young, talented, and lefty.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:12 PM
I'm not so sure I agree. They are both young, have good stuff, and have had success......that's a good amount of upside.they are middle relievers, nothing special in that. Teams(not named the Reds) simply view relievers that aren't setup or closers as interchangeable parts. If they lose one they find another. The Reds problems was that they stupidly cast their lot with Burns, White and Hammond to start the season and had no real setup man or closer. Most of their relievers were fringe roster types at best.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:14 PM
they are middle relievers, nothing special in that. Teams(not named the Reds) simply view relievers that aren't setup or closers as interchangeable parts. If they lose one they find another. The Reds problems was that they stupidly cast their lot with Burns, White and Hammond to start the season and had no real setup man or closer. Most of their relievers were fringe roster types at best.

Poor middle relievers at that.

traderumor
09-06-2006, 11:24 PM
and have a boatload of young talent, unlike the Reds.Which still does not cause me to marvel at a .500 team in a weak league. "Boatloads" of young talent often become a few guys in a row boat. Ask the Indians.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Which still does not cause me to marvel at a .500 team in a weak league. "Boatloads" of young talent often become a few guys in a row boat. Ask the Indians.

The Indians didn't have the Marlins' pitching.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Which still does not cause me to marvel at a .500 team in a weak league. "Boatloads" of young talent often become a few guys in a row boat. Ask the Indians.It plays better when most of it is pitching because they can trade the excess for whatever they need. They have Willis, Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco, Mitre, Petit, Hernandez, Tankersley.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:39 PM
It plays better when most of it is pitching because they can trade the excess for whatever they need. They have Willis, Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco, Mitre, Petit, Hernandez, Tankersley.

But TR has a point.

Take that statement last fall and insert Sabathia, Westbrook, Lee, Carmona, Guthrie, Davis, Sowers, Miller, Cabrera and you have the 2005 off season of the Cleveland Indians.

I'm not discounting what the Marlins have done, their minors, especially their lower minors, are supposedly off the charts for pitching depth. And stockpiling young pitching is key, because quite a bit of it will not pan out, or at least not end up like predicted.

But he does have a valid point.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:42 PM
But TR has a point.

Take that statement last fall and insert Sabathia, Westbrook, Lee, Carmona, Guthrie, Davis, Sowers, Miller, Cabrera and you have the 2005 off season of the Cleveland Indians.

I'm not discounting what the Marlins have done, their minors, especially their lower minors, are supposedly off the charts for pitching depth. And stockpiling young pitching is key, because quite a bit of it will not pan out, or at least not end up like predicted.

But he does have a valid point.

Not to be a punk, but I saw through the Cleveland hype. I wasn't convinced then and I'm not convinced now. I'll say it again: Shapiro's one of the most overrated GMs on earth--he's right up there with Ricciardi.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:44 PM
And back to the topic, the key point with the Marlins is they were shrewd in dealing, Beinfest insisted on young pitching, and lots of it, in every deal last year. They hit the jackpot in the Rule V draft with Dan Uggla, a player anyone could have had for $50k. And they've had amazing luck with retreads in the bullpen this year. That figured to be their tire blowout, if any.

And lets not forget what they gave up to get all that young pitching.

Carlos Delgado
Paul LoDuca
Josh Beckett
Juan Pierre
Mike Lowell
Luis Castillo

If the Reds bit the bullet and gave up 6 of their top 8 players, I would reckon they could pull in a small bounty of arms as well.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:46 PM
If the Reds bit the bullet and gave up 6 of their top 8 players, I would reckon they could pull in a small bounty of arms as well.

If the Reds had a smart GM, he could gain the requisite pitching to compete without leveling the franchise.

IslandRed
09-06-2006, 11:46 PM
How can the Marlins build from scratch and win a World Series, dismantle and rebuild to win the World Series again, dismantle and rebuild to be more of a contender for the forseeable future than the Reds? The Marlins have done a good job of getting quality when they traded off their big name players through the years.

The key reason the Marlins have been able to restock so successfully in their dismantlings is because they blew up teams that were good. They weren't a typical club that waits until the window is closing, by which time their players are older, more expensive and worth less in trade. They weren't an average club that only had a few good chips. They traded good players, coveted players, in quantity. That's why they got what they got.

Of course, those are also the same reasons there aren't many Marlins fans left.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:47 PM
If the Reds bit the bullet and gave up 6 of their top 8 players, I would reckon they could pull in a small bounty of arms as well.the Reds gave up two of them and got basically nothing.

The Marlins traded mostly way overpriced players(and some overrated). The only one you could argue was not seriously overpriced was beckett and he has always had injury issues.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:48 PM
Not to be a punk, but I saw through the Cleveland hype. I wasn't convinced then and I'm not convinced now. I'll say it again: Shapiro's one of the most overrated GMs on earth--he's right up there with Ricciardi.

I don't know who's rating Ricciardi all that highly, especially since he's been handed an open checkbook and still can't seem to put together a competitive AL East team.

But Shapiro, considering what he was handed, has at least turned his team into his own Frankenstein, sans the bulky, overpriced aging talent that was present when he came in. Now it's up to him to sink or swim with it. So far, it's been a small bit of swimming, and lots of sinking.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:50 PM
I don't know who's rating Ricciardi all that highly,



A lot of people for many years.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:53 PM
the Reds gave up two of them and got basically nothing.

The Marlins traded mostly way overpriced players(and some overrated). The only one you could argue was not seriously overpriced was beckett and he has always had injury issues.

well, I don't want to turn this into another debate about "The Trade" - there are about 500 other threads on here about it.

I was just making the point that if the Reds cleaned house of their top players, they could net such a bounty.

But also give credit to Beinfest. Not only did he ask for lots of pitchers (and the right ones so far) he didn't make some potentially stupid ones (Scott Olsen for Joey Gathright was the big talk all spring) and netted some quality bats like Hanley Ramirez in the process.

flyer85
09-06-2006, 11:55 PM
But also give credit to Beinfest. Not only did he ask for lots of pitchers (and the right ones so far) he didn't make some potentially stupid ones (Scott Olsen for Joey Gathright was the big talk all spring) and netted some quality bats like Hanley Ramirez in the process.and now he has excess to trade to fill holes and payroll flexibility to sign some back end of the bullpen help.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:55 PM
A lot of people for many years.

Well I guess he's the junior Moneyball G-Man, so the shroud of the A's success can carry you for a while.

He strikes me as the youngest brother in the family. He really wants to be like his extremely successful older brother. Tagging along and copying his every move, no matter what he does, he just can't quite duplicate older brother. Whatever he tries, it always ends up turning out just short, or just off.

jmcclain19
09-06-2006, 11:58 PM
and now he has excess to trade to fill holes and payroll flexibility to sign some back end of the bullpen help.

Yep - flip guys like Nolasco now before their glass slipper falls off.

Falls City Beer
09-06-2006, 11:58 PM
I was just making the point that if the Reds cleaned house of their top players, they could net such a bounty.


Sure, the Reds could, but I'm not sure you can separate Wayne's trade acumen from the discussion.

flyer85
09-07-2006, 12:01 AM
Yep - flip guys like Nolasco now before their glass slipper falls off.he could deal guys like Nolasco, Mitre, and Petit and come up with quite a bit.

Chip R
09-07-2006, 12:11 PM
It's also a little less hard when you've conceded the fact that you are building for the future and have no illusions of contending short-term. The fact that the Marlins are in the hunt this season is something nobody expected, even Marlins management. If Castellini came in this past off-season and decided to clean house and build for the future, Reds fans would have gone ballistic.

That's true. It's also easier if you don't have a lot of fan support. Hard to make a lot of fans angry when there are few fan to make angry. It's a lot easier to trade your good players away when you don't have anything to lose. That said, you have to give major kudos to Benifest and Co. for acquiring and developing all that young talent. Girardi gets credit too for getting a team that was 20 games under .500 to this level.

blumj
09-07-2006, 12:34 PM
I don't know who's rating Ricciardi all that highly, especially since he's been handed an open checkbook and still can't seem to put together a competitive AL East team.
The Blue Jays have a $75 million payroll, after their big offseason spending spree. The Red Sox spend closer to $120-130 million, the Yankees over $200 million.

dabvu2498
09-07-2006, 02:00 PM
A lot of people for many years.

Even though their minor league system is strapped now???

Falls City Beer
09-07-2006, 05:33 PM
Even though their minor league system is strapped now???

Ricciardi's apologists have become very quiet since this last offseason.

REDREAD
09-08-2006, 01:22 AM
Not to be a punk, but I saw through the Cleveland hype. I wasn't convinced then and I'm not convinced now. I'll say it again: Shapiro's one of the most overrated GMs on earth--he's right up there with Ricciardi.


I'm on the fence about Shapiro. He seems a good rebuilding GM, but not a guy that's going to be able to fill in the missing pieces a contending club needs to get over the top.

Trading Crisp for Marte, letting Millwood walk (signing Byrd as a replacement), and dumping a lot of his good bullpen talent was not smart at all IF they wanted to contend this year. Ultimately, he may win the Marte-Crisp trade, but that clearly damaged their ability to contend this year. He paid 7 ? million for Byrd, but wouldn't pay about 12 for Millwood? Why not pay 5 million more and get an ace instead of a .500 guy?

Maybe Shapiro is getting orders from above, but I was surprised the Indians basically went into rebuilding mode last winter when they were close to contending last year. Maybe Shapiro figured last season was fool's gold. I didn't actually follow them enough to make a judgement myself.