Dunn.. And His Comments..

[RedLegSuperStar]

DaytonDailyNews/Tom Archdeacon

The other day Hatteberg questioned if the Reds — who haven't had to play for anything in recent Septembers — still have guys who think they don't have to show up every day.

Is resolve giving way to resignation?

Dunn shrugged at the questions: "I have no idea. We're just playing bad at the wrong time. There's nothing we can do. I guess we could take extra batting practice, but that's not really going to do anything ..."

But as he left the clubhouse, the big outfielder showed he was going to get some swings in.

He picked up the golf bag by his locker, slung it over his shoulder and, with clubs rattling, headed for the door.

Might as well start working on the game he'll be playing when the postseason starts.

I don't really know if Dunn is joking, or what. You have to think with your team in reach of the playoffs and you have a guy make comments like that and then grab your golf bag instead of your bat bag. This brings me back to comments he made last year when the Reds were in Houston and he basically said he'd love to play in front of his hometown crowd for the 'Stros.

Does he want to be here? Does he want to win? Does he care? Is it because Football is here and Texas is #2 and playing for #1 when they face top ranked Ohio State?

Dunn got a pretty sweet contract at the beginning of the year and to not want to improve his game or teams chances of winning. I'm sure other players see this and think he's not here why should I? I'm going to use Edwin Encarnacion as an example because it has been heavily documented..but the kid was dubbed 3rd baseman of the futures and given 3rd once Joe Randa was dealt. He lost his job this season not because of his offense but because of his errors. This motivated him to go out everyday before anyone to practice fielding over and over and over. Edwin doesn't even make one tenth of what Dunn does and out there trying to better himself and his team chances to win.

As a fan I see this and think.. Jerry, are you going to be a players manager or a hard nose guy? Along with the above questions I also think that if I was Wayne this offseason I would dangle Dunn to see what teams are willing to give up for him. As a fan... I want this team to at least want to go out and win. I want them to play baseball and only baseball from March to October.

[Heath]

Well - it's that time of year again. Every year it is the same thought - a perpetual weed around here, when the Reds start tanking, its time for "Let's get rid of Adam Dunn" rooters to come out of the woodwork.

Last time I checked, there are (allegedly) 24 other players that make up the Reds Roster. What about the other members of the club? Can't a guy leave his job and hit a golf course for relaxation? For you golfers, that's the ultimate - going out of work early - and playing 18. We do, why can't Adam Dunn?

He's a guy who has a job just like the rest of us. It's just upsetting to us because his job gives us entertainment and lately the Reds haven't been entertaining.

Wayne Krivsky doesn't have to dangle Dunn. He gets calls every day during the season about Adam Dunn. Thankfully, he says "No Thank You" and hangs up.

If Wayne Krvisky could do one thing for Dunn, is to give him a 1st baseman's mitt for Christmas.

[GAC]

Respectfully - I think you're making much ado about nothing and/or trying to read somthing else into his comments. Yes, Dunn's play for the last month, from an offensive perspective, has really fallen off. But are you (or anyone, including Archdeacon) suggesting that it's due to his supposed indifferent attitude and, as some have tried to suggest - poor work ethic OR is it simply as he states..... "We're just playing bad at the wrong time." And they are - not just Dunn.

Look at how many games per season this guy has played in.....

2004 - 161
2005 - 160
2006 - 138 (so far)

The guy has been in there and healthy.

[GAC]

Can't a guy leave his job and hit a golf course for relaxation? For you golfers, that's the ultimate - going out of work early - and playing 18. We do, why can't Adam Dunn?

Nope. He can't. He has to be in the batting cage 24/7 to show some that he really cares. ;)

[RedFanAlways1966]

Dunn got a pretty sweet contract at the beginning of the year and to not want to improve his game or teams chances of winning. I'm sure other players see this and think he's not here why should I?

Generalize much? Do you personally know Adam Dunn?

You think after 5 months of ML baseball that the guy is supposed to hit off of a tee for 2 hours each night AFTER THE GAME? You don't think seeing ML pitching for 5 months straight (not incl. Spring Training) is good enough? You don't think being at the park a few hours before game time and practicing is not enough. Amazing, but no surprise. Edwin? No rip on Edwin, but please tell us about his workout routine since you seem to know the ENTIRE behind the scenes scenario.

Tom Archdeacon? That DUI-offending writer should stick to what he is good at... feel-good stories that involve some person who came back from a tragic event of some sort. He is good at that sort of thing. Of course he'll have people buy into BS when he occasionally writes it (as seen here), but not most.

[smith288]

DaytonDailyNews/Tom Archdeacon



I don't really know if Dunn is joking, or what. You have to think with your team in reach of the playoffs and you have a guy make comments like that and then grab your golf bag instead of your bat bag. This brings me back to comments he made last year when the Reds were in Houston and he basically said he'd love to play in front of his hometown crowd for the 'Stros.

Does he want to be here? Does he want to win? Does he care? Is it because Football is here and Texas is #2 and playing for #1 when they face top ranked Ohio State?

Dunn got a pretty sweet contract at the beginning of the year and to not want to improve his game or teams chances of winning. I'm sure other players see this and think he's not here why should I? I'm going to use Edwin Encarnacion as an example because it has been heavily documented..but the kid was dubbed 3rd baseman of the futures and given 3rd once Joe Randa was dealt. He lost his job this season not because of his offense but because of his errors. This motivated him to go out everyday before anyone to practice fielding over and over and over. Edwin doesn't even make one tenth of what Dunn does and out there trying to better himself and his team chances to win.

As a fan I see this and think.. Jerry, are you going to be a players manager or a hard nose guy? Along with the above questions I also think that if I was Wayne this offseason I would dangle Dunn to see what teams are willing to give up for him. As a fan... I want this team to at least want to go out and win. I want them to play baseball and only baseball from March to October.
Yep. Adam hates winning.

[dabvu2498]

Can't a guy leave his job and hit a golf course for relaxation? For you golfers, that's the ultimate - going out of work early - and playing 18. We do, why can't Adam Dunn?

He's a guy who has a job just like the rest of us. It's just upsetting to us because his job gives us entertainment and lately the Reds haven't been entertaining.

If Wayne Krvisky could do one thing for Dunn, is to give him a 1st baseman's mitt for Christmas.


I would never begrudge a person his or her recreation time. Whether it be golf, fishing, macrame, etc., etc., we all need an outlet beyond the normal 9-5 day.

Should a person be able to leave work early to play golf? I dunno. I would have a hard time looking my coworkers in the eye the next morning if I flaked out early to golf, especailly if there was pressing work to be done.

Should baseball be a 24/7 job? No, of course not. But if I and/or my coworkers have had a bad day at the office, a good coworker is not going to flaunt his or her recreational activities as they head out the door.

Then there's the issue of why his golf clubs were in the clubhouse in the first place. Any of you other golfers physically bring your clubs into the office??? The only logical explanation I could figure for this one is that one of the clubhouse guys was regripping them or something of that nature. Otherwise, there is no reason for golf clubs to be in an "office."

One last item in this rant... 1st base. Never gonna happen. Why? Because Dunn doesn't want to. Exhibit A: Spring Training 2006. Of course, then I guess we do have Mr. Dunn to thank for Scott Hatteberg. Which ain't all bad.

[Edskin]

I still desperately want the Reds to trade Dunn, but I do agree this writer is searching here.

[GAC]

Should a person be able to leave work early to play golf? I dunno. I would have a hard time looking my coworkers in the eye the next morning if I flaked out early to golf, especailly if there was pressing work to be done.

Where did it say he left early? And left early from what? And what pressing work was to be done? It was post-game, the game was over, so the guy is basically heading out FROM WORK after probably being at the ballpark hours before the game in preparation, taking BP. Would that be considered overtime?

But if I and/or my coworkers have had a bad day at the office, a good coworker is not going to flaunt his or her recreational activities as they head out the door.

Flaunting it? He didn't go searching out that reporter and his camera. They came to him. What was he suppose to do? - stash the clubs in his locker till after the interview so as to not give the wrong impression?

Then there's the issue of why his golf clubs were in the clubhouse in the first place. Any of you other golfers physically bring your clubs into the office??? The only logical explanation I could figure for this one is that one of the clubhouse guys was regripping them or something of that nature. Otherwise, there is no reason for golf clubs to be in an "office."

A lockerroom is not the same as an office. So lets get serious here. But I bet there are alot of management people around this country that do, and also sneak off early to play golf, entertain clients, and them claim it as a business write off on their taxes. ;)

NOTE TO ADAM: Next time - hide the @#$! clubs in your car and tell the interviewer you don't have time to talk because you want to go play some golf and relax. I could just imagine the headline of the article the next day. ;)

[dabvu2498]

GAC -- Read the quotes I was responding to. Heath mentioned leaving early. I was responding to him, not to Dunn's specific situation.

As far as him "flaunting" his golfing, I was discussing my own personal behavior modifications after a bad day. I would not flaunt it. As far as what his (and every other player's) interactions with reporters in the locker room, sure he didn't go over to Archdeacon and say "Look Tom, sweet clubs, huh? I'm getting out of here ASAP and heading over to Neuman Golf." But guys know reporters are in the clubhouse, they know their every move, word, and mannerism is dissected. Be savvy (or smart) enought to know how things will be perceived and avoid having negative threads started about you on the internet. ;)

I agree, the locker room is not the same as an office, but we always hear about this being the players' job, so I feel it's a fair comparison. And I disagree with you on management types who take their clubs into their office. If they do, they don't stay in one place very long.

[Chip R]

As far as him "flaunting" his golfing, I was discussing my own personal behavior modifications after a bad day. I would not flaunt it. As far as what his (and every other player's) interactions with reporters in the locker room, sure he didn't go over to Archdeacon and say "Look Tom, sweet clubs, huh? I'm getting out of here ASAP and heading over to Neuman Golf." But guys know reporters are in the clubhouse, they know their every move, word, and mannerism is dissected. Be savvy (or smart) enought to know how things will be perceived and avoid having negative threads started about you on the internet. ;)


Ballplayers have been taking their clubs in the locker room ever since they started having locker rooms.

[RFS62]

Narron should offer to trade him his chair back for the clubs.

[flyer85]

The thing that I find amusing is that others think that losing/having a bad game should ruin their day and affect the rest of players lives. You prepare and then go out an play as hard as you can, when it's over you move on.

[dabvu2498]

Ballplayers have been taking their clubs in the locker room ever since they started having locker rooms.

My question is... Why? Why should a baseball player (any player, not just Dunn) have his golf clubs in a locker room? It's not liked he's parked in a bad neighborhood. Having them regripped?

I very rarely say this, but IF I were boss, no stinking golf clubs in the place of business!!!

[Sea Ray]

The issue with Adam Dunn is not about golf bags or fishing poles. It is the fact that his game has not shown improvement over the past 3 or 4 years. You'd think a guy in his early 20s would show improvement. His strike outs have continued to lead the league. He has not learned to hit the ball to LF, his average has not improved (hitting with RISP has been abysmal) nor has his defense. This lack of improvement along with putting on 30 lbs makes it look like he's not a hard worker. It looks like he's satisfied hitting 40 HRs a year and knocking in 100 and he's so gifted he can do that without working at it like Pete Rose,Tony Gwynn or even Albert Puhols. How often do you hear that Albert is a student of the game and studies his ABs in the clubhouse even during a game? Nobody has ever accused Dunn of being a student of the game.

[Heath]

I would never begrudge a person his or her recreation time. Whether it be golf, fishing, macrame, etc., etc., we all need an outlet beyond the normal 9-5 day.

Should a person be able to leave work early to play golf? I dunno. I would have a hard time looking my coworkers in the eye the next morning if I flaked out early to golf, especailly if there was pressing work to be done.

Should baseball be a 24/7 job? No, of course not. But if I and/or my coworkers have had a bad day at the office, a good coworker is not going to flaunt his or her recreational activities as they head out the door.

Then there's the issue of why his golf clubs were in the clubhouse in the first place. Any of you other golfers physically bring your clubs into the office??? The only logical explanation I could figure for this one is that one of the clubhouse guys was regripping them or something of that nature. Otherwise, there is no reason for golf clubs to be in an "office."

One last item in this rant... 1st base. Never gonna happen. Why? Because Dunn doesn't want to. Exhibit A: Spring Training 2006. Of course, then I guess we do have Mr. Dunn to thank for Scott Hatteberg. Which ain't all bad.

Wow, are you jealous that you can't go and play golf during the day?

Is reading redszone.com and posting during the normal business day just as bad as leaving to play golf? Is your argument about productivity in the office? I'm not seeing the correlation of your point here.

Shoot, if I have a bad day at the office, I'd be more inclined to get the heck out of there and do something that releases pressure.

Yes, I am fortunate, my clubs are at my employment, and at a moment's notice, I have the ability to grab them at anytime and just go out and play.

To be critical of Adam Dunn because he wants to play golf - is stupid, IMO.

BTW - Have you talked to Adam Dunn about playing 1B? Maybe WayneK wanted to give Hatteburg a chance and play 1b this year. It seemed to work out fine. After Hatteburg leaves, Dunn can go to 1b for 2007.

The thing that I find amusing is that others think that losing/having a bad game should ruin their day and affect the rest of players lives. You prepare and then go out an play as hard as you can, when it's over you move on.

Oh my goodness. I agree with Ricardo. Here comes the fire and brimstone.

[dfs]

Tom Archdeacon? That DUI-offending writer should stick to what he is good at... feel-good stories that involve some person who came back from a tragic event of some sort. He is good at that sort of thing. Of course he'll have people buy into BS when he occasionally writes it (as seen here), but not most.

With all due respect, this is exactly one of Tom Archdeacon's specialties. He goes into a lockeroom and finds an angle that the regular beat reporter doesn't see (or won't report.)

[flyer85]

WOh my goodness. I agree with Ricardo. Here comes the fire and brimstone.admit it, it feels good on the dark side. :devil:

[Roy Tucker]

I think the DDN writer took a cheap shot at Dunn with the golf club closer to the column. If there is a story there about Dunn's work ethic, then develop the story and write something on it. But don't make little innuedos.

Having said this, I think comparing Adam Dunn to some work-a-day schmuck who stops off at the driving range to hit a bucket of balls after work is a little silly.

A fact of life is that the more money you make, the higher the expectations of your performance are. The guy is at the top of a difficult pyramid to climb. He makes $7.5M a year. He plays Major League Baseball. The expectations of his performance are very high.

*My* expectations are that every employee of the Cincinnati Reds should be doing everything they can to maximize their wins. And *my* expectations are that every player ought to be as prepared as they possibly can for each and every game.

Maybe this is Dunn's way of preparing for games. And maybe it works for him. But I read something like this and compare it to my idea of a work ethic and it causes me to cock my eyebrow and say "oh reeeeeaaallly". And it does put another arrow in the quiver of Dunn critics.

[ochre]

Ballplayers have been taking their clubs in the locker room ever since they started having locker rooms.
So they should just get rid of locker rooms?

[dabvu2498]

Wow, are you jealous that you can't go and play golf during the day?

I can. I choose not to.

Is reading redszone.com and posting during the normal business day just as bad as leaving to play golf? Is your argument about productivity in the office? I'm not seeing the correlation of your point here.

My argument is about accountability. I'm accountable to my clients, coworkers and employees. If I fail, I lose clients/money. If Dunn (and his teammates) fail, I've spent time and money on tickets, driving to the ballgame, or just watching on TV, I feel like I've lost resources.

Shoot, if I have a bad day at the office, I'd be more inclined to get the heck out of there and do something that releases pressure.

Ditto. But I'm not going to let my clients and coworkers know about it. Discretion.

To be critical of Adam Dunn because he wants to play golf - is stupid, IMO.

Read my comments more closely. I'm not critical of Dunn for wanting to play golf. Far from it. Maybe, I'm questioning his dedication based on his laissez faire demeanor and lack of improvement in a year that should be one of his "prime" years.

BTW - Have you talked to Adam Dunn about playing 1B? Maybe WayneK wanted to give Hatteburg a chance and play 1b this year. It seemed to work out fine. After Hatteburg leaves, Dunn can go to 1b for 2007.
Did you miss RZ the day Hatteberg signed for 2007???

[37red]

Screw the golf club distraction. Dunns at work, he's got a huge presentaion to make and the deadline is now. He's paid to do his job, research it and get it done. If he is short on the details he has to straighten them out and make sure the competition doesn't get the deal over him. Time is of the essense and when I'm working of a huge contract I have to ignore playtime and focus on my work spending lot's of extra hours getting the edge over the competition.... there'll be plenty of time for playing around after the job is done. He's not paid minimum wage to do meanial work, he's paid a huge amount of money to give it his all for the season.

[westofyou]

Having said this, I think comparing Adam Dunn to some work-a-day schmuck who stops off at the driving range to hit a bucket of balls after work is a little silly.

Welcome to Deadzone.

[Heath]

I can. I choose not to.

That's your choice. Congratulations.

My argument is about accountability. I'm accountable to my clients, coworkers and employees. If I fail, I lose clients/money. If Dunn (and his teammates) fail, I've spent time and money on tickets, driving to the ballgame, or just watching on TV, I feel like I've lost resources.

Well, accountability and resources aside, Dunn plays a game that has a winner and a loser. It's a chance that you take going to game. When I feel I am losing "resources" or money - I usually pull the plug and not go. That doesn't make me a worse fan. If you think you are wasting your time - don't go or watch. No one's holding a gun to your head. A baseball player's job and a "regular job" is not "apples to apples".

Ditto. But I'm not going to let my clients and coworkers know about it. Discretion.

That's your call. Shucks, where I work its a badge of honor almost. If I've been real busy and I'm "overwhelmed" per se, I carry a cell phone so I can be reached. I'm out for the afternoon. It doesn't mean I'm not accountable to my employment.

Read my comments more closely. I'm not critical of Dunn for wanting to play golf. Far from it. Maybe, I'm questioning his dedication based on his laissez faire demeanor and lack of improvement in a year that should be one of his "prime" years.

WARNING WARNING - DEAD HORSE ALARM - The same demeanor that Austin Kearns posseses - but Austin got traded away. This is the same Kearns that so many people want back - because he has potential - but he has had no improvement in what should be one of his prime years.

Did you miss RZ the day Hatteberg signed for 2007???

Yes, I must have. I don't carry perfect attendance here at RedZone.com. I have to be held accountable to my job. I have clients you know. That, or I was playing golf. :rolleyes: :dunno:

[NJReds]

WARNING WARNING - DEAD HORSE ALARM - The same demeanor that Austin Kearns posseses - but Austin got traded away. This is the same Kearns that so many people want back - because he has potential - but he has had no improvement in what should be one of his prime years.

I think more people were more upset that we didn't get more in return for Kearns.

[TheBigLebowski]

Has anyone considered the fact that he may have been taking the clubs out of the clubhouse so they stopped providing such a distraction?

[dabvu2498]

That's your choice. Congratulations.

Easy with the snarkiness. If I've been snarky enough to deserve this, I apologize.

A baseball player's job and a "regular job" is not "apples to apples".
Agreed. Heck, comparing your job and my job is not an apples to apples comparison.
WARNING WARNING - DEAD HORSE ALARM - The same demeanor that Austin Kearns posseses - but Austin got traded away. This is the same Kearns that so many people want back - because he has potential - but he has had no improvement in what should be one of his prime years.
Not sure what Kearns has to do with our discussion. Maybe Dunn's demeanor is beaten to death, but it keeps coming up over and over due to long periods of play that are well below expecations.

Yes, I must have. I don't carry perfect attendance here at RedZone.com. I have to be held accountable to my job. I have clients you know. That, or I was playing golf. :rolleyes: :dunno:
I just thought that someone who follows the Reds as much as you or I would know that there's no chance Dunn will ever play 1st here (unless Hatteberg and Votto are no longer with the organization).
I think more people were more upset that we didn't get more in return for Kearns.
:thumbup:
Has anyone considered the fact that he may have been taking the clubs out of the clubhouse so they stopped providing such a distraction?
Why were they there in the 1st place?

[MaineRed]

Anyone know what Glavine, Smotlz and Maddux did just about every day they weren't pitching when all were with the Braves?

Thats right, golf.

Welcome to the club Adam.

[MaineRed]

Why were they there in the 1st place?

Based on your comments, you seem like some sort of business man. I'm guessing you have an office. Got any pictures of your family there? If so, WHY? Shouldn't you be concentrating on your work and not worrying about family when you have clients to think about?

I don't know why his clubs are there but I bet there are 100s of things unrelated in any way to baseball in EVERY clubhouse in baseball. Choosing to write this article now is a joke.

As I said, where were all the Maddux doesn't care articles when he was seen leaving the park with a bag of clubs slung over his shoulder?

But of course these kind of articles only get printed when your losing. I'm sure there were some golf clubs in the Reds clubhouse in April. But that wouldn't of been juicy when the Reds were 18-8.

[westofyou]

Why were they there in the 1st place?

Same Reason Ty Cobb's were in his clubhouse back in the teens.

[KittyDuran]

I think the DDN writer took a cheap shot at Dunn with the golf club closer to the column. If there is a story there about Dunn's work ethic, then develop the story and write something on it. But don't make little innuedos.

Having said this, I think comparing Adam Dunn to some work-a-day schmuck who stops off at the driving range to hit a bucket of balls after work is a little silly.

A fact of life is that the more money you make, the higher the expectations of your performance are. The guy is at the top of a difficult pyramid to climb. He makes $7.5M a year. He plays Major League Baseball. The expectations of his performance are very high.

*My* expectations are that every employee of the Cincinnati Reds should be doing everything they can to maximize their wins. And *my* expectations are that every player ought to be as prepared as they possibly can for each and every game.

Maybe this is Dunn's way of preparing for games. And maybe it works for him. But I read something like this and compare it to my idea of a work ethic and it causes me to cock my eyebrow and say "oh reeeeeaaallly". And it does put another arrow in the quiver of Dunn critics.Post of the thread! :thumbup:

[BRM]

Same Reason Ty Cobb's were in his clubhouse back in the teens.

You keep forgetting that was then, this is now.

[TeamBoone]

This brings me back to comments he made last year when the Reds were in Houston and he basically said he'd love to play in front of his hometown crowd for the 'Stros.

Again, this is a misquote... not only by you, but by many. He was asked point blank by a reporter if he'd like to play in his hometown of Houston. His answer was (paraphrased) "what guy wouldn't? maybe sometime in the future but right now I'm perfectly happy where I am".

BTW Heath, you're post (#2) is right on the money, IMHO.


Should a person be able to leave work early to play golf? I dunno. I would have a hard time looking my coworkers in the eye the next morning if I flaked out early to golf, especailly if there was pressing work to be done.

Nowhere did it say that he left work early to play golf. How do you leave a baseball game early? Most players do their extra work before the game, not after.

I don't know about you, but I read just about everything I can get my hands on about the Reds. Several articles have talked about Adam Dunn's extra work in the batting cage. Freel went so far as to laud him for it saying something like "I'm really happy for him, especially after all the hard work he's put in". I believe this semi-quote came off a particularly good game from Adam Dunn.

Being a professional baseball player is not an easy job, and it's one that runs from mid February through the end of September... into October if they're lucky. It's not 9-5 Mon thru Friday. It's their LIFE 24/7 with very few days off.

[dabvu2498]

Based on your comments, you seem like some sort of business man. I'm guessing you have an office. Got any pictures of your family there? If so, WHY? Shouldn't you be concentrating on your work and not worrying about family when you have clients to think about?

Completely ironic that you say this. But it leads me to a great story!

I got this idea from a veteran colleague of mine several years back. In my office, I have pictures of my family (and my employees' families) on a storage unit opposite my desk, directly behind the chairs where clients sit if they have an office consultation. Rationale: when clients are trying to "barter" for me to lower prices on my services, I have all the reasons I need to make a decision on whether I should do the clients the favors that they ask staring me right back.

Looking at my own wife and son and all the "mouths to feed" that this business represents makes for very good motivation.

[pedro]

You keep forgetting that was then, this is now.

I looked across the street, watching some little twelve- and thirteen-year-old teenyboppers make fools of themselves-smoking, trying to act cool, pushing each other, screaming and swearing so loud I could hear them. I had a sudden recollection of Mark and me at twelve, smoking our heads off, clowning around, hoping someone-usually some little long-haired chick-would notice us and see how cool we were. All of a sudden it seemed like I was a hundred years old, or thirty at least. I wondered if, when I got to be twenty, I would think how stupid I was at sixteen. When I remembered us, it didn't seem possible that we had looked as silly as these teenyboppers, but I guess we had. At least then we weren't worried about looking silly. We were sure of ourselves, so sure we were the coolest things to hit town. Now I wasn't so sure.

[dabvu2498]

Same Reason Ty Cobb's were in his clubhouse back in the teens.

And I still don't know what that is?!?!?!

[westofyou]

And I still don't know what that is?!?!?!

To get the clubhouse boys to clean them, oh and the answer everyone really thinks... To use in the driving contest all the overpayed guys slumping have each day instead of studying video or lifting weights.

[dabvu2498]

To get the clubhouse boys to clean them, oh and the answer everyone really thinks... To use in the driving contest all the overpayed guys slumping have each day instead of studying video or lifting weights.

I figured it was to get some swings in off the turf in the indoor batting cages. Although that wasn't an option in Mr. Cobb's day. :)

[TeamBoone]

My question is... Why? Why should a baseball player (any player, not just Dunn) have his golf clubs in a locker room? It's not liked he's parked in a bad neighborhood. Having them regripped?

I very rarely say this, but IF I were boss, no stinking golf clubs in the place of business!!!

Or for Pete's sake! Who the **** cares!

[Phhhl]

What a bunch of hooha over nothing. Ever been approached by some squirrely reporter after dropping THE game that probably ended any chance for a playoff appearance in any given season? Me neither, but my guess is that my defenses would be up. I might say something in anger, or try to control that anger by being nonchalant, or tell the reporter to go f-off, or I might say or do just about anything. It's not going to be your average joe's best moment, and Adam seems like a pretty regular kind of guy to me.

It's frustrating that the guy hasn't turned it up in the second half and help carry this team. I get that, and it bothers me. But, this is another example of the Cincinnati media picking on something that they know the kneejerk mafia will catch wind of and issue a hit on one of our best players about. I guess this writer views us as a collection of mindless drones, and if your opinion of Adam Dunn is modified by drivel like this maybe you are.

[westofyou]

I figured it was to get some swings in off the turf in the indoor batting cages. Although that wasn't an option in Mr. Cobb's day. :)

True, he was too busy filing his spikes or checking his portfolio out.

[dabvu2498]

Nowhere did it say that he left work early to play golf.

In Heath's post #2, the one that you liked, he asked about people leaving work early to golf. I was responding to that in general, not specifically about Dunn.

[vaticanplum]

My argument is about accountability. I'm accountable to my clients, coworkers and employees. If I fail, I lose clients/money. If Dunn (and his teammates) fail, I've spent time and money on tickets, driving to the ballgame, or just watching on TV, I feel like I've lost resources.

I take issue with the use of the word "fail" here. Adam Dunn has not failed. He's in a bad stretch. Being a person, he's not perfect, so bad stretches happen. For Adam Dunn to "fail" in my eyes, he would have to stop playing, stop trying, and contrary to what some people believe I've never seen evidence of that. Baseball is not like a lot of kinds of business. In certain businesses, if you know what you have to do, you have trained in the methods to do it, and you work hard, you will achieve the desired result. Baseball is different. You can be filled with talent and desire and work very hard and sometimes the results won't reflect it. In fact, that's a given because of the length of the season and the nature of chance and the fact that you're playing with at least nine other dudes. Losing is not inherently failing. Good teams lose, and when bad teams lose, it is failure on the management's part for not putting a better team on the field. Am I saying that players are never responsible for their own losses? Of course not, but if they've given their best, sometimes that's all they can do. If you feel the team has failed you as a paying customer every time you see them lose, then you've gambled on a chance and lost. Even the very best baseball teams lose about a third of their games.

It drives me crazy when I see what I perceive as people creating problems with Dunn that don't exist, but he's gifted and so he is and always will be saddled with the burden of extremely high and often unrealistic expectations. And he's young, with the better part of his career ahead of him instead of behind him like Griffey, so he's often used as a scapegoat when the team isn't doing well (though, funnily enough, he doesn't seem to get all the credit when the team is doing well). I see this constantly in everything from comments from the casual fan to half-baked journalism which takes cheap, manipulative, very pointed shots at him with absolutely no foundation. For me personally, he has exceeded expectations almost every single year of his career. If his personality is such that he leaves baseball at the park after a hard day's work, so be it. These people are needed for balance in baseball and in life and he's likely a happier man and a better player for it.

[Cedric]

You guys aren't going to like Homer Bailey one bit.

He's probably worse than Dunn in this way.

[westofyou]

You guys aren't going to like Homer Bailey one bit.

He's probably worse than Dunn in this way.

Yep, they'd hate Jeff Kent too... he doesn't really like baseball IIRC.

[vaticanplum]

You guys aren't going to like Homer Bailey one bit.

He's probably worse than Dunn in this way.

Who's "you guys"? I have every intention of showering Homer Bailey with love.

[Cedric]

Who's "you guys"? I have every intention of showering Homer Bailey with love.

Obviously the people that are having trouble with Adam Dunn and golf.

[KittyDuran]

Who's "you guys"? I have every intention of showering Homer Bailey with love.The "guys" that don't like Dunn's laid back attitude...:)

[dabvu2498]

Great post VP.

I know my (and others') "issues" with Dunn are based mostly on perception, and in this regard, he hasn't done much to help himself out. I guess he didn't have a Crash Davis to teach him all the right things to say and do to get the media and fans on his side.

[vaticanplum]

I know my (and others') "issues" with Dunn are based mostly on perception, and in this regard, he hasn't done much to help himself out. I guess he didn't have a Crash Davis to teach him all the right things to say and do to get the media and fans on his side.

I think it's true that he is what he is and presents himself as such. If I may be permitted to generalize and stereotype for a moment, Dunn and Bailey are both Texans. In my experience, this is a trait of many male Texans. now, I have a lot of problems with the state of Texas generally, but this is one thing I've noticed and always admired: they work hard, they don't fuss about working hard, and then they enjoy everything involved with non-work. They love work, and they also love their golf and fishing or what-have-you. Compare this to someone like me who is utterly "nothern" in work habits; I cannot leave work at work no matter what and I fuss and stress about it constantly. And I think it probably strikes them as bizarre to cover up their attitudes towards work and play, since they DO work hard and it never occurs to them that the fact that they go golfing later may cause people with different attitudes to question that.

I could be way off-base here, and feel free to contradict this if you don't agree with my generalizations. But it's some food for thought.

[TeamCasey]

How do you leave a baseball game early?

Ask Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Larkin. :laugh: ;)

[TeamCasey]

Or for Pete's sake! Who the **** cares!

I don't think I've ever heard you use that word in real life? :laugh:

[Roy Tucker]

I look at it like this.

The company I'm working for is losing money. People are burning the midnight oil. The CEO is approving all spending to try to remedy the situation. The COO is putting in ungodly hours. Everyone is busting tail trying to turn the tide.

I've got my immediate work done. I'm seen walking out at 5 PM with my golf clubs. Rightly or wrongly, my dedication and motives are going to be called into question.

Maybe I care about it or maybe I don't.

[ochre]

I look at it like this.

The company I'm working for is losing money. People are burning the midnight oil. The CEO is approving all spending to try to remedy the situation. The COO is putting in ungodly hours. Everyone is busting tail trying to turn the tide.

I've got my immediate work done. I'm seen walking out at 5 PM with my golf clubs. Rightly or wrongly, my dedication and motives are going to be called into question.

Maybe I care about it or maybe I don't.
I think that there is a difference that is discrete, yet very important in that analogy. You, as the business man, are working on a product; Dunn is the product (at least per the context of this discussion). Sometimes, particularly in baseball with the marathon season, one just needs to clear one's head.

[dabvu2498]

I could be way off-base here, and feel free to contradict this if you don't agree with my generalizations. But it's some food for thought.

Naw, I'm with you. I have experience with the kinds of people you talk about in your generalizations.

I, unlike some of the other Dunn bashers, have very little/no problem with his on field demeanor. I just wish he would say/do some things that indicate he has a little more bulldog in him instead of so much teddy bear.

[KittyDuran]

I think that there is a difference that is discrete, yet very important in that analogy. You, as the business man, are working on a product; Dunn is the product (at least per the context of this discussion). Sometimes, particularly in baseball with the marathon season, one just needs to clear one's head.And in a marathon season in which the team is competing. I'll give Dunn a pass this year because he has NEVER experience winning this late in the season since he's been a major leaguer (2001-present). And IIRC has only been in the playoffs in his professional career in 2000 with Dayton.

[NJReds]

Sometimes athletes fail to understand how the fans will perceive their actions. Some don't care. Dunn seems to have blown off the season in his words and actions as described by the reporter. His intent doesn't matter to the casual reader -- perception becomes reality.

Fans live and die with every win and loss. They expect the players to feel the same way, even though that's not practical.

I winced when I read this story for that reason. But I see this all the time in the NY press. It doesn't happen as often in Cincinnati.

It's funny though that ARod is the polar opposite of Dunn in this regard. He crafts his words and actions, particularly to the media, to build up what he feels is the perception that he's a tireless worker earning every penny of a bloated contract. And yet he gets booed and over-scrutinized, too.

[westofyou]

It's funny though that ARod is the polar opposite of Dunn in this regard. He crafts his words and actions, particularly to the media, to build up what he feels is the perception that he's a tireless worker earning every penny of a bloated contract. And yet he gets booed and over-scrutinized, too.

Yep, he gets it for being "staged" meanwhile, some guys leave the clubhouseto chase girls (shhhhhhh....) others leave to play golf... well because if you work everyday and your game (work) ends at 3 one day and you have a day off the next day and summer is waning who doesn't ache to get away from work? (be it Golf or riding a bike)

Shoot, what if he had a golf game with a dieing fan, they'd blow so much sunshine up his skirt you'd be sick.

Can't win or lose in baseball, mostly because it's fraught with small successes amongst a mountain of failures and the mountains are what everyone sees.

[vaticanplum]

Sometimes athletes fail to understand how the fans will perceive their actions. Some don't care. Dunn seems to have blown off the season in his words and actions as described by the reporter. His intent doesn't matter to the casual reader -- perception becomes reality.

Fans live and die with every win and loss. They expect the players to feel the same way, even though that's not practical.

You're right, and that's exactly why I feel that it was irresponsible journalism. He took a casual incident and twisted it to make it appear that this kind of attitude is partly to blame for the team's subpar performance. This is a heck of a lot simpler thing for the casual reader to understand than a detailed analysis of team makeup and managerial decisions. And frankly, that's part of the reason this team has an overwhelming glut of casual fans instead of an informed and devoted fanbase.

If he has a problem with Dunn, he has every right to address it in something that at least resembles an editorial. His opinion is his and it's valid. To inject it into a story that way is poisonous. Obviously I don't know Dunn so I don't know exactly what his work habits are like, but I have my informed opinion and my opinion is valid too.

[37red]

My sister's a Texan, she's a National Syndications Manager and she has a lot of responsibility. When she goes home with an important deal on the line the cell phone and pocket computer are always on. She's not out riding her World Champion Paint Horses, she's getting the closing deals done. Get off the Texans bull, when a job is on the line the job has to get done... it doesn't matter who you are..... what a line of crap.

Well boys, since I'm a big ole Texan I don't have to chase down that steer today. If I was a hard working ranch hand I would, but It's just not something I do if you know what I mean, just ask the board members here heh heh. Open up another one of those Star Beers and just let that Ole Steer end up in someone elses hands, I'm just a big ole Texan.

The Reds are or were in the grasp of a playoff spot. Everyone should have been putting in over time to make it happen. This goes for the scouts, Dunn which has no excuses, and everyone else. The season will be over soon enough. Why give any of them an excuse for not busting butt the last month? Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.

[Roy Tucker]

I think that there is a difference that is discrete, yet very important in that analogy. You, as the business man, are working on a product; Dunn is the product (at least per the context of this discussion). Sometimes, particularly in baseball with the marathon season, one just needs to clear one's head.

Yeah, I suppose. Maybe it truly is the best thing for him to go do. It just looks bad. Which, as a concept, is a really stupid thing to care about.

Like what VP said about Texans, I wish I could not give a crap what people thought like them. I have too much midwest and middle child in me.

[NJReds]

He took a casual incident and twisted it to make it appear that this kind of attitude is partly to blame for the team's subpar performance.

And it was at the end of a story where Freel was complaining about the team's poor homestand. So it made it seem like Freel (scrappy) cared while Dunn (lazy) didn't. Although both of them have performed poorly of late.

Obviously I don't know Dunn so I don't know exactly what his work habits are like, but I have my informed opinion and my opinion is valid too.

But your opinion isn't in one of the two city papers. This article uses one incident that could sway the casual fan's opinion against Dunn.

[dabvu2498]

But your opinion isn't in one of the two city papers. This article uses one incident that could sway the casual fan's opinion against Dunn.

Actually, it was in the Dayton Daily News. If we're going to criticize Archdeacon for misrepresenting, we might as well get all our facts straight here.

[Heath]

I just wish he would say/do some things that indicate he has a little more bulldog in him instead of so much teddy bear.

Then your perception of Adam Dunn needs to be changed, because that is not his nature. He's not a fire/brimstone type guy. Neither was Larkin. Neither is Griffey.

Your fiery-types are the "scrappy" ones - One who might get the "red rear".

You are basically like the girl who likes the guy and tells her friends that I am going to change him, when he just wants to be himself.

[Hoosier Red]

Here's the problem, it's not that Dunn went to play golf.
It's not that he didn't work out all night and stay up until 3 studying video.
It's the image of it.
It's probably not a coincidence they "caught" Dunn doing this.

Do you think you'd ever see a similar response from Carson Palmer? From Chad Johnson?

Do you think Derek Jeter would say something like this?

There are certain things that aren't a big deal in and of themselves, but look worse than they actually are.

[MaineRed]

Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.

When is Freel going to start busting his butt to get a hit?

Give him enough ABs and he might compete with Dunn for the K record, and he leads off. And he doesn't hit 40 bombs a year either.

Dunn is 26 and many people give him a chance to break Hank Aaron's record.

Quick, trade the guy.

[NJReds]

Actually, it was in the Dayton Daily News. If we're going to criticize Archdeacon for misrepresenting, we might as well get all our facts straight here.


I'm having a real problem getting my Cincinnati-area papers straight today. It really shouldn't be that difficult. :help:

[dabvu2498]

Then your perception of Adam Dunn needs to be changed, because that is not his nature. He's not a fire/brimstone type guy. Neither was Larkin. Neither is Griffey.

Your fiery-types are the "scrappy" ones - One who might get the "red rear".

You are basically like the girl who likes the guy and tells her friends that I am going to change him, when he just wants to be himself.

I don't need Dunn to be a "fire/brimstone" guy. I just want a guy who has a competitive nature and lets it show. (Don't take this to mean that I don't think Dunn isn't competitive. Anyone who has achieved the level of success he has clearly has some competitive drive. Would it hurt to let it show?)

[dabvu2498]

There are certain things that aren't a big deal in and of themselves, but look worse than they actually are.

Good post. And in the long run, repeated issues like this decrease ticket sales, viewership, revenue.

Perception is still 9/10s reality.

[vaticanplum]

My sister's a Texan, she's a National Syndications Manager and she has a lot of responsibility. When she goes home with an important deal on the line the cell phone and pocket computer are always on. She's not out riding her World Champion Paint Horses, she's getting the closing deals done. Get off the Texans bull, when a job is on the line the job has to get done... it doesn't matter who you are..... what a line of crap.

Well boys, since I'm a big ole Texan I don't have to chase down that steer today. If I was a hard working ranch hand I would, but It's just not something I do if you know what I mean, just ask the board members here heh heh. Open up another one of those Star Beers and just let that Ole Steer end up in someone elses hands, I'm just a big ole Texan.

The Reds are or were in the grasp of a playoff spot. Everyone should have been putting in over time to make it happen. This goes for the scouts, Dunn which has no excuses, and everyone else. The season will be over soon enough. Why give any of them an excuse for not busting butt the last month? Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.

Please don't twist my words. I said I was making generalizations and that means that everything I was saying does not apply to everybody. More importantly, I NEVER implied that people from Texas don't work hard. Quite the opposite in fact; I said several times that they work very hard, just that they get the job done, don't make a fuss about it, and enjoy leisure time. Again, generalizations, but not bad ones in any case. Furthermore, to pick nits, I referred specifically to male Texans. My experience with females has been very different.

This it not making excuses for Adam Dunn. Here we simply disagree, no Texas generalizations involved: you seem to think he's not working hard. I think he is, and that people blame poor results on a misperception about him that is played up by the media.

[Heath]

Would it hurt to let it show?

I think someone who averages 40 HRs, 100 RBI's 100 BB's and an OPS over .900 career-wise is a showing it.

Just because he's not boisterous about it from an egotistical side (which, by nature, most competitive people are egotistical in nature) doesn't make him less competitive.

I find his lack of ego refreshing - the self-depreciating aside.

I think its getting nit-picky here. And I'm not snarky. Just answering questions that have been proposed.

[CTA513]

The Reds are or were in the grasp of a playoff spot. Everyone should have been putting in over time to make it happen. This goes for the scouts, Dunn which has no excuses, and everyone else. The season will be over soon enough. Why give any of them an excuse for not busting butt the last month? Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.

If Dunn is playing golf in his free time then I could careless. Now if he was supposed to be working out or practicing then that would be a problem. It sounds like this was after a game/practice, so I would guess that would be his free time. I would rather him go out and play golf then go out and get drunk.

[Cyclone792]

Adam Dunn came into this season averaging 25.49 win shares per 162 games. That's higher than nine Hall of Fame left fielders before the age of 26. He also came into this season with 104 career win shares, and that's higher than 11 Hall of Fame left fielders before the age of 26.

The guy produces on the field, and quite frankly, that's the bulk of what I care about. The Reds have their own team rules on when Adam Dunn is supposed to at the ballpark and/or engaged in MLB activities, and last I checked, I haven't heard of Dunn breaking any of those rules. As long as he isn't violating any laws, baseball rules or team rules, then I honestly don't care one iota what he does on his own personal time.

Adam Dunn's personal time is Adam Dunn's personal time. It's not my time, it's not your time, and it's not anybody else's time. If Adam Dunn wants to play golf, chase girls, play XBox 360, sit on his rear in a nice comfortable chair, read a bunch of people complain about him on RedsZone or any other legal activity, then more power to him.

Dunn is just doing what's within his own rights; nothing more, nothing less.

[GAC]

The next time I see Archdeacon in the clubhouse, I know where I'd put the clubs. :lol:

[Heath]

Adam Dunn came into this season averaging 25.49 win shares per 162 games. That's higher than nine Hall of Fame left fielders before the age of 26. He also came into this season with 104 career win shares, and that's higher than 11 Hall of Fame left fielders before the age of 26.

The guy produces on the field, and quite frankly, that's the bulk of what I care about. The Reds have their own team rules on when Adam Dunn is supposed to at the ballpark and/or engaged in MLB activities, and last I checked, I haven't heard of Dunn breaking any of those rules. As long as he isn't violating any laws, baseball rules or team rules, then I honestly don't care one iota what he does on his own personal time.

Adam Dunn's personal time is Adam Dunn's personal time. It's not my time, it's not your time, and it's not anybody else's time. If Adam Dunn wants to play golf, chase girls, play XBox 360, sit on his rear in a nice comfortable chair, read a bunch of people complain about him on RedsZone or any other legal activity, then more power to him.

Dunn is just doing what's within his own rights; nothing more, nothing less.


Let's see here -

Stats .... check
Inailenable rights to freedom....check
Addressing complaints from a few fickle fans on a message board looking for a scapegoat....check


Yep, must be cyclone....nice post.

[Hoosier Red]

As most everyone "against Dunn" has been saying on this thread.

It's all about the image it projects.

Maybe he can't avoid it, he was going to play golf(again no real problem there) and the reporters are always around,(a problem Team Boone mentioned in another thread.)

However, seeing the best player on the team, say "well this losing sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it," as he heads out the door to get his 18 holes in doesn't leave good thoughts.

[westofyou]

However, seeing the best player on the team, say "well this losing sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it," as he heads out the door to get his 18 holes in doesn't leave good thoughts.

You're right, and it's exactly why the Reds fired Bob O'Farrell as manager back in 1934. But then all the games were day games and he did it regularly.

Chances are that on a Wednesday afternoon that Dunn was not the only one going out to play golf, especially with a day off on Thursday, shoot he could have been going with Freel, Aurilia and Narron for all we know.

Back in the 50's a lot of the Reds lived near each other, they spent a lot of time together and the team had a reputation as a good "family" team, players talked about it when they came and when they left. Many of those events involved activities other than baseball.

All anyone has to do is read any numerous baseball biography from the 70's and 80's to understand that theses guys HAVE to get away from the game sometimes. They always have and always will, and writers and fans will climb up their butt and try and figure out why they don't eat drink and sleep baseball.... like Rogers Hornsby, one of the worst fielding second baseman and biggest pricks the game ever knew. But boy he could hit and he had all those quotes about baseball and not doing anything else..... what a guy!!!!

[Hoosier Red]

WOY, I absolutely agree.
It was probably best that Dunn did get away from the "office."

But he has to understand the image it projects, not only to the people on Redszone, but also to the majority of Reds fans who would never think to read a biography of players in the 70's or know who Bob O'Farrell is.

I think it's a double standard from a fan's standpoint.
We like the guys that have a "family feel" and genuinely like each other. It's one of the many reasons Sean Casey was so popular.
We want guys to be well rounded, definately don't want to hear an interview with someone who's all baseball and no brain.
However when we see guys in a "baseball enviroment" we want them to think about nothing more than winning and losing.

[flyer85]

I guess this thread is a sure sign the season is over

[NJReds]

I guess this thread is a sure sign the season is over

I guess you're right. If the team's best player thinks that it's over, then it's natural for the fans to pack it in, too.

[Ltlabner]

One short blurb about Dunn going to play golf and there's a sudden uproar that he's a lazy oaf and isn't disciplined and that the fan's perception will be this or that.

I guess those articles earlier in the year mentioning that Dunn was spending extra time in the batting cage to defeat the shift don't count as much because they don't support the "Dunn is lazy" argument.

Dunn strikes me as one of those people who is never going to position himself to the media or take any steps to "manage" his image. This is speculation, but he seems to be someone who'd rather go in, put his head down, and work hard instead of putting effort into telling everybody how hard he is working.

[flyer85]

I guess you're right. If the team's best player thinks that it's over, then it's natural for the fans to pack it in, too.The best player doesn't think the season is over, he just doesn't care. :evil:

[flyer85]

Dunn strikes me as one of those people who is never going to position himself to the media or take any steps to "manage" his image. This is speculation, but he seems to be someone who'd rather go in, put his head down, and work hard instead of putting effort into telling everybody how hard he is working.At the end of the day it is what he does not who he is.

I am guessing a lot of folks on this forum must go home, turn out the lights, ponder everything that didn't go right and then figure out how to make it better after a bad day at work.

[TeamBoone]

I guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

So what if he wanted to play golf AFTER the game... a day game at that; they don't have many.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of his teammates weren't playing with him AFTER the game but that part just wasn't mentioned. I sincerely doubt he was going alone.

IMHO, what this reporter intended to do was stir up a controversy... and he was succesfull. That said, I still don't see why everyone feels that what Adam did was in any way wrong... AFTER the day game.

[flyer85]

I guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

So what if he wanted to play golf AFTER the game... a day game at that; they don't have many.
but they lost, he should put his life on hold(like a lot on this board seem to do) until the next victory.

No fun allowed unless you win. :D

[37red]

My comments were actually directed at ANYBODY on any job for not pushing to beat out the competition when you know the door is ready to close. Again I'm not talking about you're underpaid overworked hourly worker.... I'm talking about the high paid.... make it happen staff which are the ball players in this case.

But all said and done it was a good rap and I can see where I was right and wrong here and there. I'm pooped out on this thread and have work to do before the sun sets whether I like it or not, no golf today, lol.

[TeamBoone]

Well boys, since I'm a big ole Texan I don't have to chase down that steer today. If I was a hard working ranch hand I would, but It's just not something I do if you know what I mean, just ask the board members here heh heh. Open up another one of those Star Beers and just let that Ole Steer end up in someone elses hands, I'm just a big ole Texan.

The Reds are or were in the grasp of a playoff spot. Everyone should have been putting in over time to make it happen. This goes for the scouts, Dunn which has no excuses, and everyone else. The season will be over soon enough. Why give any of them an excuse for not busting butt the last month? Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.

What does this have to do with him playing golf AFTER work?


Yeah, I suppose. Maybe it truly is the best thing for him to go do. It just looks bad. Which, as a concept, is a really stupid thing to care about.

Like what VP said about Texans, I wish I could not give a crap what people thought like them. I have too much midwest and middle child in me.

Why does it look bad? If he'd just left the clubhouse without picking up his golf clubs, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[Ltlabner]

I am guessing a lot of folks on this forum must go home, turn out the lights, ponder everything that didn't go right and then figure out how to make it better after a bad day at work.

Yea no kidding.

The grass is always greener........Yes they are making lots of money to play a game, but how does that change the fact that these are people who get tired, get worn down, get burnt out, etc. So he goes and plays golf after the game. Unless there's a rule that says you have to stick around X hours after a game I'd say he's "off the clock" and what he does is none of my business.

This is a whole bunch about nothing...IMO

[Far East]

Dunn looks like he's already got a Tee Time in Austin while Freel's busting his butt to catch every ball.
The team needs both a Ryan Freel and an Adam Dunn.

But it would make an interesting poll question to ask somebody -- Zoners, coaches, teammates, or just the pitching staff -- if they'd prefer have a couple of clones of Dunn or a couple of clones of Freel patroling the OF and getting 4 AB each per game.

Consider the following possible lineups:

FREEL- LF
FREEL - CF
FREEL - RF
Cleanup
5th
6th
7th
8th
Pitcher

or

Leadoff
2nd
DUNN - LF
DUNN - CF
DUNN - RF
6th
7th
8th
Pitcher

[NJReds]

That said, I still don't see why everyone feels that what Adam did was in any way wrong... AFTER the day game.


Actually, on this board most people seem to be defending him. Check out the the mlb.com board for a real 'Dunnbashapalooza'.

I think the quote was more harmful then the golf. Although the image portrayed by the reporter made the golf seem like icing on the cake.

It's so common here in NY for stuff like this to get blown up (like the early season "Enter Sandman" controversy that the media tried to blow up between Rivera and Wagner) that I just tune it out.

If it wasn't for Dunn's incredible hot streak in July and early August, the Reds would've fallen out of the race a lot sooner.

[NJReds]

The best player doesn't think the season is over, he just doesn't care. :evil:


Touche...;)

[Ltlabner]

My comments were actually directed at ANYBODY on any job for not pushing to beat out the competition when you know the door is ready to close.

All of this focus is on what Dunn did/didn't do AFTER the game. How much time do you suppose he put in before the game prepairing, watching film, working with Chambliss, etc? We don't know because that is left out of the story.

I guess my point is, how do we know what Adam Dunn is or isn't doing to "push to beat out the competition". The fact is, we don't really know what level of effort he is putting into his game.

[westofyou]

If it wasn't for Dunn's incredible hot streak in July and early August, the Reds would've fallen out of the race a lot sooner.

17-8 April and Dunn was .265/.432/.614/1.047

[TeamBoone]

As most everyone "against Dunn" has been saying on this thread.

It's all about the image it projects.

Maybe he can't avoid it, he was going to play golf(again no real problem there) and the reporters are always around,(a problem Team Boone mentioned in another thread.)

However, seeing the best player on the team, say "well this losing sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it," as he heads out the door to get his 18 holes in doesn't leave good thoughts.

There would be no image projected if the reporter had not spun it the way he did. And I'd be willing to bet there was a lot more said that the writer didn't include in the article.

They always pick and choose only bits of conversation... the bits and pieces that fulfill their needs when writing their articles, while not actually reporting the full story. At least that's been my experience when reading several articles by different writers that all based their stories on the same conversation.

[Chip R]

Dunn strikes me as one of those people who is never going to position himself to the media or take any steps to "manage" his image. This is speculation, but he seems to be someone who'd rather go in, put his head down, and work hard instead of putting effort into telling everybody how hard he is working.

We can criticize and recommend he works harder and try to become the best ballplayer he can be but, in the end, it's up to Adam. He's no phony. He's not going to craft some kind of image to the public so they will like him more. It brings to mind a quote from the Bard:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

[dabvu2498]

Why does it look bad? If he'd just left the clubhouse without picking up his golf clubs, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yeah, we would. Don't forget what the man said.

"I have no idea. We're just playing bad at the wrong time. There's nothing we can do. I guess we could take extra batting practice, but that's not really going to do anything ..."

[westofyou]

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

"A slick way to outfigure a person is to get him figuring you figure he's figuring you're figuring he'll figure you aren't really figuring what you want him to figure you figure."

Whitey Herzog,

[Matt700wlw]

This is probably one of those situations in which something was made of nothing.

[ochre]

Yeah, we would. Don't forget what the man said.
He forgot the part about wearing the rose in front?

[dabvu2498]

We can criticize and recommend he works harder and try to become the best ballplayer he can be but, in the end, it's up to Adam. He's no phony. He's not going to craft some kind of image to the public so they will like him more. It brings to mind a quote from the Bard:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Reminds me of what I heard in church not long ago. "Whatever you have on the inside comes outside with an upside and a downside."

[ochre]

Reminds me of what I heard in church not long ago. "Whatever you have on the inside comes outside with an upside and a downside."
Church of Euclidean Geometry?

[GAC]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of his teammates weren't playing with him AFTER the game but that part just wasn't mentioned. I sincerely doubt he was going alone.

Actually.... those weren't Dunn's clubs. They were Jr's. And when he saw Archdeacon coming he looked at the BIG DUMB TEXAN and said "Here, hold these for me. And if you carry them out to my Porsche we'll stop and get ice cream." :lol:

[Far East]

Upon further reflection, these two lineups might be a better comparison regarding the choice of having a couple of Dunns or a couple of Freels on the team:

FREEL- CF
FREEL - RF
DUNN - LF
Cleanup
5th
6th
7th
8th
Pitcher

or

FREEL- CF
DUNN - LF
DUNN - RF
Cleanup
5th
6th
7th
8th
Pitcher

Bottom line might be that it sure is nice to at least have one of each on the team.

[Heath]

Church of Euclidean Geometry?

That's pretty obtuse of you. :D

[osuceltic]

OK, I'll chime in ...

It's not just about the golf clubs or just about what he said. It's everything. It's his numbers declining for three straight years as his weight increases. It's him regressing as a defensive player and his reluctance/borderline refusal to play first base. It's his disappearing act as this team's playoff hopes went down the drain and his indifference as it happens. It's the anecdotal evidence we have that he doesn't work hard on his game, to the frustration of the front office.

It's all this. It's the fact that he's being paid to be the bell cow for this team and he's accepting the paycheck but not the responsibility. It doesn't matter if his numbers are better than Ryan Freel's or Rich Aurilia's or whoever. Everyone has a role, and Dunn's role is more significant than anyone else's -- and he's being compensated proportionately. When you sign that kind of contract, you better perform at a level above reproach or you're going to be in for some criticism. And if you aren't performing at such a level, you better be working just as hard as you can to fix that. If you're not, you're going to be criticized and you deserve to be criticize. You're not just being paid on what you've done -- you're being paid for what you're expected to do. And when the salary is in the $9 million a year range, that doesn't end at showing up and taking four swings a night.

[Hoosier Red]

There would be no image projected if the reporter had not spun it the way he did. And I'd be willing to bet there was a lot more said that the writer didn't include in the article.

They always pick and choose only bits of conversation... the bits and pieces that fulfill their needs when writing their articles, while not actually reporting the full story. At least that's been my experience when reading several articles by different writers that all based their stories on the same conversation.

And it's been that way since sports writers have been employed.
Heck since writers have been employed.
If he cares(he doesn't seem to) Adam Dunn has to understand what image he's projecting.
Imagine Carson Palmer in the same situation.

It's not Tom Archdeacon's job to make Adam Dunn look good. If Adam wants to look good(again, he doesn't seem to care.) He needs to be cognizant of how writers and fans perceive him.

[flyer85]

It's not Tom Archdeacon's job to make Adam Dunn look good. If Adam wants to look good(again, he doesn't seem to care.) He needs to be cognizant of how writers and fans perceive him.I would guess Dunn is comfortable with who he is and could care less what sportwriters write about him. It is quite clear that being a baseball player doesn't define who he is(unlike the majority of his contemporaries).

[westofyou]

It's his numbers declining for three straight years as his weight increases.

Actually 3 years ago he was hitting .215/.354/.465/.819

If you want to amend that to two go right ahead.

[Hoosier Red]

I would guess Dunn is comfortable with who he is and could care less what sportwriters write about him. It is quite clear that being a baseball player doesn't define who he is(unlike the majority of his contemporaries).

So if Dunn is comfortable, I'm guessing his "supporters" are not?
If so why are we having 6 pages of discussion.

[dabvu2498]

I would guess Dunn is comfortable with who he is and could care less what sportwriters write about him. It is quite clear that being a baseball player doesn't define who he is(unlike the majority of his contemporaries).

He should care. Negative perception of him (whether justified or not) leads to a negative perception of the franchise leads to declining tickets sales/revenues = bad for fans.

[Ltlabner]

He should care. Negative perception of him (whether justified or not) leads to a negative perception of the franchise leads to declining tickets sales/revenues = bad for fans.

Assuming that people would get worked up over him playing golf and decide to stop going to reds games over it. I can't see that many (any) would do this.

[dabvu2498]

Assuming that people would get worked up over him playing golf and decide to stop going to reds games over it. I can't see that many (any) would do this.
I happened to catch Andy Furman's show last night. Every call was negative. That stuff hurts the organization.

[Chip R]

I happened to catch Andy Furman's show last night. Every call was negative. That stuff hurts the organization.

And that's different from every other evening, how?

[westofyou]

FWIW here are the Reds who have topped the league OPS by .130 points and the amoount of times they've done it

Since 1950


1 Frank Robinson 8
T2 George Foster 6
T2 Joe Morgan 6
T4 Ted Kluszewski 5
T4 Johnny Bench 5
6 Tony Perez 4
T7 Eric Davis 3
T7 Lee May 3
T7 Pete Rose 3
T7 Barry Larkin 3

Here's the 2006 NL average OB% and Slg%

.334/.428

And Dunns

.371/.522

That's .131 above and would be the 3rd season that he did it and would put him on the list above.

Fore........

[Ltlabner]

I happened to catch Andy Furman's show last night. Every call was negative. That stuff hurts the organization.

Unlike all the postive vibes that flow from RZ on a daily basis? :evil:

People calling to complain on a radio show doesn't neccessarly equate to reduced ticket sales. Fans will complain even if the team is winning.

[WMR]

The golf angle is just a writer being stupid.

The quote by Dunn is disturbing.

You'd see hell frozen over before words similar to those would be uttered out of the mouth of Carson Palmer.

If DUNN doesn't care about how he is perceived... that's his problem. Quotes like the one in that article, however, do not just reflect poorly on Adam Dunn. Quotes like that make the Reds organization itself look bad, and if I was Wayne Krivsky I'd give Dunn a call and tell him to think for at least two seconds before opening his mouth to sports writers.

[BoydsOfSummer]

He had a day and a half off in what is a loooooong season. I hope he scored low on the links and high with the cowgirls. That combo almost always gets me mojo back in synch. Hopefully he let Marty win,cuz that's building good karma.

Fore! and Cowboy Up!

[NDRed]

theres nothing he can do when his team is doing bad?

[GAC]

OK, I'll chime in ...

It's not just about the golf clubs or just about what he said. It's everything. It's his numbers declining for three straight years as his weight increases.

Here are his numbers for the last 3 years.....

2004

.388 OB% .569 SLG% .957 OPS 46 HRs 102 RBIs 108 BB

2005

.387 OB% .540 SLG% .927 OPS 40 HRs 101 RBIs 114 BB

So far in 2006

.370 OB% .523 SLG% .893 OPS 39 HRs 88 RBIs 95 BB

Pretty consistent if you ask me.

[westofyou]

theres nothing he can do when his team is doing bad?

http://theages.superman.ws/Encyclopaedia/images/shirt.jpg

[flyer85]

He should care. Negative perception of him (whether justified or not) leads to a negative perception of the franchise leads to declining tickets sales/revenues = bad for fans.Baseball and all that comes with it does not define him and who he is. A lot of fans wish it were otherwise and that he would take things more "seriously" but he is who he is.

The baseball season is an almost 8 month long mental and physical grind. I personally think his struggles at times have more to do with trying to absorb to much rather than just not thinking too much and letting his natural ability take over.

[TeamBoone]

Imagine Carson Palmer in the same situation.

It's not Tom Archdeacon's job to make Adam Dunn look good. If Adam wants to look good(again, he doesn't seem to care.) He needs to be cognizant of how writers and fans perceive him.

He's not Carson Palmer! It's not fair to compare him to someone he is not, including other players. This applies to anyone, not just Adam Dunn. I'd hate it if someone did that to me all the time. Reminds me of the families that nag their children about being more like one of their siblings... usually the one that's perfect in their eyes! "Why can't you be more like ...... fill in the blank".

Some people are good with the press, some are very good, and some just are not... look at Jr. His lack of media savvy has been criticized ad nauseum.

I highly doubt Adam even realizes how writers and fans perceive him, and I further doubt that it's even occurred to him to find out. They ask him questions, and he just answers honestly with no hidden agenda.

And you're right, it's not the writer's job to make Adam Dunn look good, but neither is it his job (and every other media person, including radio) to make him look bad... especially by innuendo.

[37red]

I thought I was done with this thread but I'm done with the lawn and you all are still banging away at it so I'm back in. Dunn or WHOEVER, being paid an almost criminal 9 million dollars (or what ever it is ) a year with the end of the season and the playoffs on the line should be studying how to force the ball between the fielders I don't care where they're standing. He or ANYONE in his position should be busting his butt diving for every white circular object that comes near them in the field. This isn't just any month at work, it isn't just any day in the office, this is the last ditch chance at the playoffs for a major league baseball team. I wish I didn't even come back to read this thread and I promise to try very hard to not look back at it but gosh folks, this isn't an ordinary situation and ANYONE in his shoes should be doing anything that can be done to make any moment on the field better. OK, I'm sorry, I'm out of here, you don't even have to comment on my rant, I'm going to eat dinner and try to relax..... good night to you all :-)

[vaticanplum]

How people perceive you usually says more about them than it does about you.

[WMR]

How people perceive you usually says more about them than it does about you.

Couldn't disagree more. No matter what you're doing in life, people are constantly judging you by your appearance, dress, speech, words, and actions. And those are all impressions that you can control to a large extent.

All Dunn really needs is some rudimentary media training. If I were Bob C. or Kriv, this wouldn't even be an option. Whether or not Dunn "cares" how he is preceived could not matter to me less. He is a representative of the Reds, and any comments that he makes to the media--NO MATTER WHAT HE 'Believes'--should reflect a ballplayer whose singular goal is righting the ship, winning games, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

[Reds Nd2]

All the work on the range must have paid off, because Dunn just golfed one.

[vaticanplum]

Couldn't disagree more. No matter what you're doing in life, people are constantly judging you by your appearance, dress, speech, words, and actions. And those are all impressions that you can control to a large extent.

Why on earth would you want to? To cater to what others want to make absolutely no difference in their lives? I understand that your concern is more for the organization than for Dunn himself, but if the organization made any attempt to intervene in situations like this, they would have a self-conscious player, a possible fake player, a player who has been led to believe that what is important is what he says off the field rather than what he does on it, and in the end a probably unhappy player who has no desire to stay in such an organization. If the Reds were winning more there'd be no issue with what Dunn said. And the Reds are not losing all because of Dunn.

Then there is of course the possibility that no one within the Reds sees any problem with such an offhand inane incident. Dunn has never been accused of doing drugs, he's never said anything derogatory towards anyone, he's never been anything less than one of the team's greatest ballplayers since the moment he came up. They hardly have a "media problem" on their hands. He NEVER said that he doesn't care about the Reds winning, nor even implied it. That was the reporter.

And as I wrote this, he knocked home a homer. I will take Dunn six days a week and twice on Sunday.

You absolutely cannot control what people think of you; people have different tastes and want to hear different things, especially when you're in a position of public scrutiny as Dunn is. You wear a business suit: one person sees you as an intelligent, wealthy man; another sees you as a mindless conformist with a stick up your butt. You wear a baseball uniform: one person sees you as a hard-working, admirable athlete; another sees you as a brainless misogynist. the only thing you can do is speak and do what you believe, and then you will at least have respect of people for being yourself, and any reaction to statements can be made accordingly. I have yet to have anyone present me with any evidence that Adam Dunn doesn't believe in the Reds.

[WMR]

Someone mentioned "Bull Durham" earlier. I'm not saying give the guy a prepared speech every time he does an interview, but it's not that hard to understand why telling a reporter that there's "nothing you can do" to stop a period of losing is a bad idea???

[vaticanplum]

Someone mentioned "Bull Durham" earlier. I'm not saying give the guy a prepared speech every time he does an interview, but it's not that hard to understand why telling a reporter that there's "nothing you can do" to stop a period of losing is a bad idea???

Well...there's certainly not much you can do about it standing around talking to a reporter. Maybe he just feels that he speaks better on the field.

I'll stop now.

[WMR]

You absolutely cannot control what people think of you; people have different tastes and want to hear different things, especially when you're in a position of public scrutiny as Dunn is. You wear a business suit: one person sees you as an intelligent, wealthy man; another sees you as a mindless conformist with a stick up your butt. You wear a baseball uniform: one person sees you as a hard-working, admirable athlete; another sees you as a brainless misogynist. the only thing you can do is speak what you believe, and then you will at least have respect of people for being yourself, and any reaction to statements can be made accordingly. I have yet to have anyone present me with any evidence that Adam Dunn doesn't believe in the Reds.

If you're in a punk band, you dress and act a certain way.

If you're 50 Cent, you present yourself a certain way so you are recognized as "street" and "still legit."

If you're a lawyer you wear a suit and a tie.

If you're a ballplayer on a team that is quickly losing any hopes of making the playoffs, YOU DON'T SAY WHAT DUNN SAID. Ever.

That should be common sense. Even if it's true, you don't say it. It creates connotations, pitfalls, and beliefs in the everyman that are easily avoided.

[vaticanplum]

If you're in a punk band, you dress and act a certain way.

If you're 50 Cent, you present yourself a certain way so you are recognized as "street" and "still legit."

If you're a lawyer you wear a suit and a tie.

If you're a ballplayer on a team that is quickly losing any hopes of making the playoffs, YOU DON'T SAY WHAT DUNN SAID. Ever.

That should be common sense. Even if it's true, you don't say it. It creates connotations, pitfalls, and beliefs in the everyman that are easily avoided.

Wily Mo...you need punk lessons :devil:

You and I just disagree here.

[WMR]

Wily Mo...you need punk lessons :devil:

You and I just disagree here.

Hahahaha, hey c'mon now, I watched Sid and Nancy just the other night, that's gotta mean something! ;)

[westofyou]

If you're a lawyer you wear a suit and a tie.
Not on the coast..

[Ravenlord]

much ado about nothing.

[SteelSD]

How people perceive you usually says more about them than it does about you.

How refreshing to hear from someone who doesn't believe in the "perception is reality" nonsense consistently spewed from low-level (and sometimes high-level) HR types.

The "perception is reality" concept breaks down on a fundamental level because it involves the concept that the person "perceiving" something is a reasonable person capable of identifying reality without personal bias. In short, perception is personal. Reality is universal.

Problem is that too many people are unreasonable and will pass judgment based on personal bias. Sad, yes. But that's also a universal reality. My personal take is that if you're a good person 80% of the people you meet are going to like you and 20% aren't. Way it goes. The 20% is generally going to be filled with overly-judgmental people who dislike you because you don't fit their unreasonable expectation of who you "should be" or who don't like you because you demonstrate qualities they silently wish they possessed. You can do nothing to change the minds of the 20% without being someone you're not so you focus on the 80% because they're actually worth your time.

Adam Dunn is a good person. He performs on the field. He gives solid effort. He takes in direction- sometimes to his detriment. He wants to win. He always has. He's clever and candid. He's a smart guy. He eschews sound-byte corporate-speak and speaks his mind. How awful. He plays golf. How double-awful. Those of us currently drinking beer after a hard day's work are repulsed by his inability to round up a batting practice pitcher in order to take extra batting practice that no one else on his team apparently took.

When things are going bad, sometimes the most productive thing you can do is nothing. As Steve Covey would say, you need to sharpen the saw; i.e. you need to get away and do something that will rejuvinate your spirit. It's certainly a huge issue that Adam Dunn wouldn't stay up until midnight each day to take extra batting practice...that no one else on his team took. I mean, no one else on the team needed it coming into tonight's game...

September:

Ryan Freel: .280 OBP/.182 SLG
Brandon Phillips: .167 OBP/.095 SLG
Edwin Encarnacion: .320 OBP/.286 SLG
David Ross: .286 OBP/.294 SLG
Royce Clayton: .125 OBP/.250 SLG

Certainly those hitters were working into the wee hours of the morning at the GAB perfecting their swings...or not?

Sometimes you just need to walk away, get your head right and re-invigorate yourself. That doesn't play well with folks who perceive that effort will equate performance but that's the reality during a long hard baseball season in which the Reds have come back during too many high-pressure situations.

Adam Dunn doesn't know what the Reds need to do to get back into contention and knows the team is playing poorly. So he decided to tell someone the truth and go golfing on his off-time. How awful. People will perceive that how they will and it has nothing to do with Adam Dunn's intent, performance, or motivation.

[GAC]

How refreshing to hear from someone who doesn't believe in the "perception is reality" nonsense consistently spewed from low-level (and sometimes high-level) HR types.

The "perception is reality" concept breaks down on a fundamental level because it involves the concept that the person "perceiving" something is a reasonable person capable of identifying reality without personal bias. In short, perception is personal. Reality is universal.

And that is the key as far as I'm concerned. If you already have a personal bias or dislike toward someone, then no matter what they do you're gonna find a way to twist or "massage" it to fit within that prejudice.

So is Adam Dunn suppose to act like he is "walking on glass" all the time because he is afraid of giving people the wrong perception of him? That, in and of itself, is simply an impossible task.

We're not talking of a guy who got busted with drugs, beat his GF up, got arrested for a DUI or weapons charge, or even a misdemeanor. Geez!

And how come no one has ever brought it up, or nothing has ever been made of the fact, that alot of these players play video games in the locker room as a form of relaxation, when they should be studying game films? :eek:

[Far East]

All the work on the range must have paid off, because Dunn just golfed one.
Which reminds me, I know a few parents and coaches who have advised some teenaged athletes not to mix golf with baseball/softball. They maintain that the mechanics of the swing in the ball-on-a-tee game and the ball-speeding-in-from-a-pitcher game are so different that playing one will adversely affect the swing in the other.

Granted, these adults are not kinesiologists or physiologists, but we've all heard Chris Welsh analyze Dunn's swing as having a long downward and then upward "loop." Sounds like a golf swing. But then, does Dunn's physique give him any other choice but to swing that way?

Related to that, mention was made about the tons of golf played by Smoltz, Glavin, and Maddux, but they used their arms to make a living, not their bats.

Don't know if there's anything to this admonition about not both swinging golf clubs and ball bats -- at least in the same season. Any golf or b.b. hitting instructors out there who could answer this?

[GAC]

Which reminds me, I know a few parents and coaches who have advised some teenaged athletes not to mix golf with baseball/softball. They maintain that the mechanics of the swing in the ball-on-a-tee game and the ball-speeding-in-from-a-pitcher game are so different that playing one will adversely affect the swing in the other.

Granted, these adults are not kinesiologists or physiologists, but we've all heard Chris Welsh analyze Dunn's swing as having a long downward and then upward "loop." Sounds like a golf swing. But then, does Dunn's physique give him any other choice but to swing that way?

Related to that, mention was made about the tons of golf played by Smoltz, Glavin, and Maddux, but they used their arms to make a living, not their bats.

Don't know if there's anything to this admonition about not both swinging golf clubs and ball bats -- at least in the same season. Any golf or b.b. hitting instructors out there who could answer this?

First off.... what is a kinesiologist? :lol:

Secondly, you bring up a good point; but I think if you analyze alot of HR hitters swings (guys similar to Dunn) you'll see they are very similar in order to get the elevation because some don't have the quick wrist action/bat speed of say an Eric Davis. They relay on raw power.

[37red]

I'm on the don't worry about the perception bandwagon. Don't be a jerk, be decent to people at least, I'd hope for a lot more but they shouldn't have to prepare statements to carry around and hand out. They should never lower their standards to someone's such as a politician's, that would be a criminal offense similar to being on the mafia's payroll. They are simply working and I should accept as many have here that the day ends when the games over. Actually most of us are over achievers and should lighten up, enjoy life more by going to a ball game with the kids or go fishing. I'm going back to bed since I missed my ride to my continuing education class for my master electrician's license......... there'll be another one.

[letsgojunior]

First off, let me just say I don't care whether Adam was playing golf, tennis, or headed straight to a bar. I don't think it makes a difference, but I don't think it was "irresponsible" journalism either, as the writer buried it at the end of the column, and let the incident itself be the story rather than his own perception of it. I would say if would be "irresponsible" if he went and wrote a whole column about how Adam Dunn was a lazy bum solely based on that incident.

All that said, these types of comments ARE a problem IMO. If Dunn said what he said in NY, he would have every single newspaper and radio show demanding his head. Look at Alex Rodriguez. He sat sunning himself in Central Park with wife and kid before a game several weeks ago and was scathingly criticized everywhere.

Regardless of the equity of it, of the bias involved, perception IS reality nowadays. There is no way around it. And once you get a reputation as damaged goods or as lazy, there's really little you can do about it. That's not to say you should act fake and avoid all media pitfalls by being phony. It is to say though that a player should be careful about what he says, careful about the way he presents himself. Because like other humans, MLB GM's, team owners are making decisions based on their own PERCEPTIONS of people. Words like "team player," "bad attitude" are not irrelevant nowadays.

My own perception of Adam Dunn, complete with my own biases and preconceptions, is that, while he is not a nice guy, he does not have the killer attitude that Michael Jordan had, or that Tiger Woods has. I'm really not sure if he has that hunger to be the best. What I saw in Michael Jordan was an athlete that was NOT the most physically talented player on the floor, but the one who practiced at 3 AM, who used defeat and failure to drive his life. Honestly, and this is not meant to be offensive, what I see in Adam Dunn is a player whose OPS has declined between the ages of 24-26 (when he should be at his peak), a guy who is now being subject to late inning defensive replacements, a guy who has gained a bit of weight rather than putting on muscle.

If I were an opposing GM, I'd have a red flag in my mind. In 2004, I expected Dunn to continue to evolve into a Pujols type player. Instead, he's regressed. That's cause for concern in itself. And it may result in him getting labeled by GM's, fans, and other players. Are labels fair? No, but that's just the way life is.

One thing that bothers me about these types of discussions it that there is essentially a line drawn between Adam Dunn lovers and haters, and never shall the two meet. Haters chalk up everything as evidence that Dunn is a malcontent, lovers refuse to concede and just chalk it up as further evidence that the haters are inherently biased and will use anything and everything to discredit Dunn.

I think the true answer is somewhere in between. Adam Dunn is not responsible for the Reds misfortunes IMO, but he's also not the perfect player who should be blameless.

[Heath]

.... but he's also not the perfect player who should be blameless.

This line reminds me of the quote....those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[RANDY IN INDY]

Much ado about nothing.

[Raisor]

Adam Dunn once kicked a puppy. I know a guy that knows a guy that went out with a girl that saw him do it.

Seriously.

[TeamBoone]

My comments are bolded.

Regardless of the equity of it, of the bias involved, perception IS reality nowadays. There is no way around it. And once you get a reputation as damaged goods or as lazy, there's really little you can do about it. That's not to say you should act fake and avoid all media pitfalls by being phony. It is to say though that a player should be careful about what he says, careful about the way he presents himself. Because like other humans, MLB GM's, team owners are making decisions based on their own PERCEPTIONS of people. Words like "team player," "bad attitude" are not irrelevant nowadays. (I don't think GM's or team owners give a damn about their players behavior... there are many jerks in the game, and as long as they play well they would fight to get them on their teams. I could give some player examples, but I won't; you all know who they are... I wouldn't slot Adam Dunn into the same class as any of them.)

My own perception of Adam Dunn, complete with my own biases and preconceptions, is that, while he is not a nice guy, (he's not a nice guy? what the heck is that based on?) he does not have the killer attitude that Michael Jordan had, or that Tiger Woods has. I'm really not sure if he has that hunger to be the best. What I saw in Michael Jordan was an athlete that was NOT the most physically talented player on the floor (Guess we don't see eye to eye on this one; I think MJ is one of the most talented guys to play the game of basketball; my all-time favorite. A BB player of his calibre is not "made". He worked hard to perfect his game, but the talent was there, not acquired.) , but the one who practiced at 3 AM, who used defeat and failure to drive his life. Honestly, and this is not meant to be offensive, what I see in Adam Dunn is a player whose OPS has declined between the ages of 24-26 (when he should be at his peak), a guy who is now being subject to late inning defensive replacements, a guy who has gained a bit of weight rather than putting on muscle.

If I were an opposing GM, I'd have a red flag in my mind. (repeat my comment from above regarding what GM's look for in their players.) In 2004, I expected Dunn to continue to evolve into a Pujols type player. Instead, he's regressed. That's cause for concern in itself. And it may result in him getting labeled by GM's, fans, and other players. Are labels fair? No, but that's just the way life is.

One thing that bothers me about these types of discussions it that there is essentially a line drawn between Adam Dunn lovers and haters, and never shall the two meet. Haters chalk up everything as evidence that Dunn is a malcontent, lovers refuse to concede and just chalk it up as further evidence that the haters are inherently biased and will use anything and everything to discredit Dunn.

I think the true answer is somewhere in between. Adam Dunn is not responsible for the Reds misfortunes IMO, but he's also not the perfect player who should be blameless.

[SteelSD]

Much ado about nothing.

AKA "Chairgate redux".

[Heath]

AKA "Chairgate redux".


Ah, Steel - the chairgate was actually something that everyone thought was stupid. Except Dave Miley.

This has struck a nerve. Losing 8 of 10 will do that to people.

[creek14]

Sure is good to see that Old Red Guard/Reds Live is separating the wheat from the chaff.

[Cyclone792]

If I were an opposing GM, I'd have a red flag in my mind. In 2004, I expected Dunn to continue to evolve into a Pujols type player. Instead, he's regressed. That's cause for concern in itself. And it may result in him getting labeled by GM's, fans, and other players. Are labels fair? No, but that's just the way life is.

I don't mean to single you out, lgj, as I've seen similar statements everywhere from Reds fans, but I'm really beginning to believe that most people really have little to no idea just how great Albert Pujols really is.

As of September 4th, 2006, Albert Pujols has 212 career win shares in 909 career games. That comes out be 37.78 win shares per 162 games.

For most people, that 37.78 win shares per 162 games is just a number without a frame of reference. But let's go ahead and give people a frame of reference. Here's the list of position players in baseball history who had a career with more than 37.78 win shares per 162 games:

Player Win Shares per 162

Babe Ruth 48.93
Ted Williams 39.22
Barry Bonds 39.19
Ty Cobb 38.55
Mickey Mantle 38.12
Honus Wagner 38.01

That's it; there is nobody else. Guys such as Gehrig, Speaker and Hornsby are in the 36 range, but there's only six guys ahead of Pujols. Granted, Pujols hasn't gone through a decline period yet, but he also is nowhere near finishing his peak.

Albert Pujols has a five-year peak that already places him as the 2nd greatest first baseman of all-time in peak value, behind only Lou Gehrig. In fact, Pujols' first five seasons were collectively greater than Jimmie Foxx's five greatest seasons period. At first base after Foxx, there's only Gehrig to surpass. Again, that's it; there is nobody else.

Pujols is already a baseball legend. He's a guy who has an excellent chance to retire among the top 20-25 players in the history of the game, and even a pretty good chance to retire possibly among the top 10-15 players in the history of the game.

Now, the point of all the above is for people to ask themselves one key question: Is it really fair to compare Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols and place an expectation on Adam Dunn for him to develop into an Albert Pujols type player?

People need to look at the players on the above chart when thinking about that question. They need to consider that Pujols may retire being the greatest first baseman in the history of the game.

Quite simply, it is highly unfair, vastly unreasonable and entirely unrealistic to expect Adam Dunn to become another Albert Pujols, or even remotely close to another Albert Pujols. Sure it'd be nice if Dunn could do it, and it's easy to want Dunn to do it. But please don't place that expectation on him, because if you do then you're asking for the sun, the moon, the stars and everything else between.

[vaticanplum]

Sure is good to see that Old Red Guard/Reds Live is separating the wheat from the chaff.

I'm still enjoying this. We like our horses dead, but at least we beat them articulately.

:deadhorse (see, the guy in the middle is still shouting...)

[VR]

One write-up on Al-

"Preparation is one of Albert’s assets, too. He approaches every at-bat with a clear idea of what a pitcher will throw him and how he will react. His discipline at the plate is evidenced by the fact that his strikeout totals continue to drop, while his walks increase.

Albert is among the most respected players in baseball. Teammates and coaches appreciate—and feed off—his commitment to winning. He also earns high marks for working as hard on his defense as his offense, and though he’s slow, he has learned to be a good baserunner."



Albert has limited natural talent, tremendous desire to win, and a freaky work ethic that has catapulted him to stardom. Adam has freaky natural talent, and baseball isn't his first love. Doesnt' mean we should hate him for it, he'll still give us an occasional all-star and good run production.

[RANDY IN INDY]

Albert Pujols has limited natural talent? The ability to hit a baseball thrown by a big league pitcher, the way that he does, is natural talent. You don't teach that.

[VR]

Albert Pujols has limited natural talent? The ability to hit a baseball thrown by a big league pitcher, the way that he does, is natural talent. You don't teach that.

Sorry, I meant athletically.

[Ltlabner]

For those who want Dunn to be angry and freak out to prove how dedicated to winning he is, to show some passion and fire, I witnessed live and in person that he was irrate with himself after one of his at bats. I couldn't tell, but I think he swung and missed one down broadway to strike out. In frustration he drove the handle of the bat into the ground, kicked the dirt a bit and basically threw his helmet on the ground.

See...he cares. Proof positive.

[ochre]

Probably reminded him of the put he missed on 16.

[TeamBoone]

Hmmmm, you think he's referring to the reporter? Or maybe he reads RedsZone... or someone else does and told him.

09/09/2006 7:00 PM ET

Notes: Dunn enters exclusive club
Third season of 40 homers matches Kluszewski's achievement
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

Adam Dunn is the second Cincinnati player to hit 40 homers in three straight seasons.

CINCINNATI -- Reds left fielder Adam Dunn put himself among some rather lofty company on Friday night.
Dunn's two-run home run in the seventh inning of a 9-1 win over the Pirates gave him 40 homers for the season. The slugger joined Ted Kluszewski (1953-55) as the only two Reds in history to have three consecutive 40-homer seasons.

"It's a great honor," Dunn said. "I don't play for that kind of stuff. I know a lot of people say they don't care, but I really don't care about it."

Dunn, who entered Saturday batting .243 with 90 RBIs, couldn't believe he's only the second Cincinnati player to have ever achieved the feat.

"It really does surprise me, with this organization," Dunn said. "I would have thought a lot more people would have done that."

Another revelation came when Dunn was informed that his 198 career home runs tied him with baseball legend Joe DiMaggio's homer total over his first six Major League seasons (1936-41). In that category, Dunn, who broke in during the 2001 season, trails Frank Robinson (202 from 1956-61), Eddie Matthews (222, 1952-57), current star Albert Pujols (245, 2001-06) and Ralph Kiner (257, 1946-51).

"Slow down," Dunn said when those greats were cited. "That's not even fathomable."

The long ball's significance to the present was more meaningful to Dunn, who was batting .185 since Aug. 1. He has produced just three RBIs over his previous 15 games -- on a solo homer and Friday's homer.

"It's been a long time since I hit the ball good," Dunn said. "I had good yesterday, and [B]as much as everyone wanted to talk bad about my off day, it helped. I felt better yesterday. That's about it."

http://www.redszone.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1154718

[NJReds]

If it was Redszone to which he was referring, then perception isn't reality. Way more people here protect Dunn then criticize him. He must have been talking about the reds.com message board. But they've wanted him out of here for three years.

[Chip R]

They were talking about this on WLW the other night and probably on HOMER as well. Judging from history, I'd say it's more likely the players get that stuf from the radio rather than online.

[Far East]

About Adam's baserunning on Sunday, Jerry said this:
"Dunn moving up on Ross' deep sacrifice fly to left field was a key play. That's one of those things that can be overlooked," he said. "That's one of those little things you start talking about the first day of spring training. It was an outstanding play. That's how you're supposed to play the game."

[dabvu2498]

Sure is good to see that Old Red Guard/Reds Live is separating the wheat from the chaff.

I apologize. I'll stick to Reds Live from now on.

[IslandRed]

Albert has limited natural talent, tremendous desire to win, and a freaky work ethic that has catapulted him to stardom. Adam has freaky natural talent, and baseball isn't his first love. Doesnt' mean we should hate him for it, he'll still give us an occasional all-star and good run production.

Sorry, I meant athletically.

Hitting a baseball is a skill that has little relationship to what we usually think of as athleticism. David Ortiz? Manny Ramirez? Travis Hafner? Any of those guys resemble real athletes? Nope. They can all crush a baseball, though. Heck, go all the way back to Babe Ruth if you want more examples.

Pujols does have a great work ethic, and that's helped him get where he is, but let's not act as if he's some Average Joe in the talent department.

[Razor Shines]

For those who want Dunn to be angry and freak out to prove how dedicated to winning he is, to show some passion and fire, I witnessed live and in person that he was irrate with himself after one of his at bats. I couldn't tell, but I think he swung and missed one down broadway to strike out. In frustration he drove the handle of the bat into the ground, kicked the dirt a bit and basically threw his helmet on the ground.

See...he cares. Proof positive.

I honestly don't see how anyone could say that Dunn doesn't play hard or that he doesn't care. Seems to me that when he's playing he plays his butt off. I've seen him dive for balls in left before. I have no idea what Dunn's work habits are off the field, but it does seem that his defense has gotten better since the start of the season, and I haven't seen him "duck" a fly ball this year. One thing that seems to say he doesn't work on his conditioning is how much weight he's put on since he came into the league. Maybe he thinks that he's in good enough shape to do what he needs to on the field and maybe he is, but I just don't understand how a professional athlete can't keep himself in shape. Obviously Adam isn't the only one, I think Harang could get in better shape. And I lost some respect for Tony Gwynn for letting himself go the way he did, I can find the time and the will to stay in shape, why can't someone who's body is their paycheck? But hey it's their careers.

Back on point, I just think it's silly to question's Dunn's desire to win.

[George Foster]

Nope. He can't. He has to be in the batting cage 24/7 to show some that he really cares. ;)

No hitter should play golf during the season...period. It is a totally different swing, in fact it is the mirror opposite. I played baseball my whole life including an adult league. Now I'm an avid golfer, 6 HC. Your weight has to be behind the ball at impact with golf, not to mention your hand position at impact, etc. If Dunn is playing golf on a regular basis no wonder his swing and hitting is so streaky.

If you don't play golf regularly, I guess you would not understand, but trust me, playing ML baseball and golf at the same time is not good. Pitchers can do it, I don't have a problem with that, but not power hitters, not Dunn who has timing issues anyway.

[bucksfan]

Much ado about nothing.

My thoughts exactly - I was surprised the thread was still near the top of the board so I checked it out to see if there were some key details I was missing, such as where Dunn says something like 'I willl never practice again ever and will only golf as soon as the last itch is thrown each day"....

[TeamBoone]

It appears the golf pro on Reds Live doesn't agree with you. As he disagreed with someone over there who had an opinion similar to yours, I thought I'd post his response here... the guy's a golf pro (who also plays/played some baseball, by the sounds of it), so I have a tendency to think he knows what he's talking about.

Originally posted by Redhook

I disagree with this. I believe you can do well at both, and at the same time. I am a golf instructor. I know the golf swing extremely well and there are many similarities between the golf swing and the baseball swing even though they are on different planes. Let me explain.

In both sports you are trying to maximize your time in the "hitting" zone. In golf, the longer you can swing down the target line the straighter you will hit the ball. Most good golfers can go down the line for 6 inches or so (the best ever was Moe Norman....18 inches. He hit every shot dead straight). In baseball, the more level you are (Griffey is great at this), the better chance you have to "cover" the ball and drive it. I don't know exactly how long Griffey was level through the hitting zone, but I know in his prime he was better than most, if not the best.

Now, I'll get a little more technical, just for kicks. For the better player in golf, the biggest fault is getting stuck. The club gets behind the hands and you're in now man's land (Tiger when he faults). You either block the ball way right or flip it left. The main reason for this is the right shoulder dips on the downswing causing the right elbow to drop below the left elbow (for a righty) and therefore it is virtually impossible to hit down and through the ball. The same can be said for baseball. If a player doesn't drop his back elbow too much then he will be in a much better position to hit down and through the ball. If you try to hit the ball high you'll notice how low your back elbow gets. The lower it gets the more upward your swing will go, thus creating very little time in the "hitting" zone.

Both swings can get rather technical, but playing golf casually is not going to hurt Dunn's baseball swing. And, if he actually knew what he was doing, it could potentially help out his baseball swing, alot. I actually make some of my students make baseball swings to level their shoulders out. Unfortunately, I doubt Dunn knows what he's doing when he plays golf and he's just bashing away at the ball....hitting up on it just like he does in baseball.

If I could just give him one golf lesson I think could also turn him into a .300 hitter.
2nd post by Redhook on the same subject

Before I became a golf instructor, I would've agreed with you on this because I used to have the same problem in high school. Now, I do not. I can shoot under par in golf and go to the batting cages and hit the ball very solid. Why? Because I know how to swing the golf club correctly which can help the baseball swing out too. If you know how to properly swing a golf club, most do not, you can do both quite well, and at the same time. I've done it.

[Ron Madden]

No hitter should play golf during the season...period. It is a totally different swing, in fact it is the mirror opposite. I played baseball my whole life including an adult league. Now I'm an avid golfer, 6 HC. Your weight has to be behind the ball at impact with golf, not to mention your hand position at impact, etc. If Dunn is playing golf on a regular basis no wonder his swing and hitting is so streaky.

If you don't play golf regularly, I guess you would not understand, but trust me, playing ML baseball and golf at the same time is not good. Pitchers can do it, I don't have a problem with that, but not power hitters, not Dunn who has timing issues anyway.

This is nothing more than a tempest in a tea-pot.

I don't play golf or MLB. I quess there is no way I could ever understand. Think I'll put my trust in Adam Dunn.

[GAC]

I disagree with this. I believe you can do well at both, and at the same time. I am a golf instructor. I know the golf swing extremely well and there are many similarities between the golf swing and the baseball swing even though they are on different planes. Let me explain.

In both sports you are trying to maximize your time in the "hitting" zone. In golf, the longer you can swing down the target line the straighter you will hit the ball. Most good golfers can go down the line for 6 inches or so (the best ever was Moe Norman....18 inches. He hit every shot dead straight). In baseball, the more level you are (Griffey is great at this), the better chance you have to "cover" the ball and drive it. I don't know exactly how long Griffey was level through the hitting zone, but I know in his prime he was better than most, if not the best.

Now, I'll get a little more technical, just for kicks. For the better player in golf, the biggest fault is getting stuck. The club gets behind the hands and you're in now man's land (Tiger when he faults). You either block the ball way right or flip it left. The main reason for this is the right shoulder dips on the downswing causing the right elbow to drop below the left elbow (for a righty) and therefore it is virtually impossible to hit down and through the ball. The same can be said for baseball. If a player doesn't drop his back elbow too much then he will be in a much better position to hit down and through the ball. If you try to hit the ball high you'll notice how low your back elbow gets. The lower it gets the more upward your swing will go, thus creating very little time in the "hitting" zone.

Both swings can get rather technical, but playing golf casually is not going to hurt Dunn's baseball swing. And, if he actually knew what he was doing, it could potentially help out his baseball swing, alot. I actually make some of my students make baseball swings to level their shoulders out. Unfortunately, I doubt Dunn knows what he's doing when he plays golf and he's just bashing away at the ball....hitting up on it just like he does in baseball.

If I could just give him one golf lesson I think could also turn him into a .300 hitter. ;)

That would a heck of an accomplishment in golf. But does hitting for average count there? ;)

Overall - good post.

[37red]

This is getting better all the time LOLOLOL

[Heath]

Will it hit page 10?

(not to be confused with the RedsZone 10!)

[TeamBoone]

What's really weird about all this is that everyone is talking only about Adam and golf. A whole boatload of other MLB guys play golf... probably a lot more than Adam does (he usually fishes on off days)... and not all of them are pitchers.

[NJReds]

I think I found one of his golf club head covers.

http://www.bogeysandbirdies.com/images/thumbnails/donkey.gif