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View Full Version : Would you trade Dunn for Hafner?



redsrule2500
09-11-2006, 03:05 AM
Yes or No?

Tornon
09-11-2006, 04:35 AM
Hafner looks like he is going to be a pretty special hitter, not that Dunn isn't. Adam may hit a few more HRs but Hafner will probably be more of a clutch hitter & drive in more with base hits. They both seem to walk a lot, but yea.. I would definitely take Hafner

KronoRed
09-11-2006, 04:48 AM
I'll stick with Dunn because he's younger.

Natty Redlocks
09-11-2006, 07:47 AM
Would we get to call him "Big Pronkey"?

Seriously, if he could handle 1B on a daily basis, I'd rather have Hafner in the lineup than Dunn.

mth123
09-11-2006, 08:01 AM
Forgetting the circmstances and positions and based on pure hitting ability - yes.

But Hafner can play only 1B and isn't very good there. We have Votto coming and with 1B easiest to fill it is harder to get good value for 1B prospects in trade than other positions. If you trade Dunn for Hafner, then you may end-up trading Votto for something that probably is not as good as he projects to be. So I voted no.

But I'd do it if I knew I could fill another need by trading Votto.

Always Red
09-11-2006, 09:15 AM
I voted no.

Hafner has had an excellent year, and is a very good OBP guy, mayber even better than Dunn. But he doesn't play in the field, never really has for any extended period of time.

While an excellent hitter, I think Hafner is a typical Amercan League player, and would be best served by staying in the AL.

The Reds have problems enough in the field as it is, without adding a player that you just have no idea if he's going to be able to field his position.

UK Reds Fan
09-11-2006, 09:20 AM
Why does Dunn playing LF vs. Hafner playing 1B matter? Dunn is without a doubt terrible at LF, so put Dunn at 1B and almost anybody outside of Bonds/Manny would be a defensive upgrade to Dunn in LF.

Hafner is just as good OBP, with not quite as much power as Dunn, but the K's go down bigtime and thus I would say many more RBIs for Hafner vs. Dunn. Also, when you look how this team is being built (if you can see a definable building plan offensively) we need a guy to get 'em in vs. get on right now. Only EdE is a viable RBI guy in the lineup for the future right now.

Always Red
09-11-2006, 09:45 AM
Why does Dunn playing LF vs. Hafner playing 1B matter? Dunn is without a doubt terrible at LF, so put Dunn at 1B and almost anybody outside of Bonds/Manny would be a defensive upgrade to Dunn in LF.

Hafner is just as good OBP, with not quite as much power as Dunn, but the K's go down bigtime and thus I would say many more RBIs for Hafner vs. Dunn. Also, when you look how this team is being built (if you can see a definable building plan offensively) we need a guy to get 'em in vs. get on right now. Only EdE is a viable RBI guy in the lineup for the future right now.

Dunn is very average in the OF, not terrible. He will look much better when paired with a CF who has excellent range. Manny Ramirez is terrible, and he's played with Damon and Crisp.

Hafner is so bad at 1b, that no one will even play him there. Improving defense is a priority for the Reds; why add a guy who can't even play 1B? Please note that I do not questions Hafner's hitting ability at all, I just think he's a prototypical AL'er.

BTW- 100 RBI a year for 3 years in a row does indeed make one (Adam Dunn) a "viable RBI guy," even if he is driving himself in 40 times a year.

UK Reds Fan
09-11-2006, 09:53 AM
Dunn is very average in the OF, not terrible. He will look much better when paired with a CF who has excellent range. Manny Ramirez is terrible, and he's played with Damon and Crisp.
.

I see no way how you can term Dunn average LF. When discussing range about Griffey, Dunn doesn't impress me with his ability to get to a ball either. Quite a few balls fall between Griff and Dunn, not all of which are on Griff. I see no bearing on how good a guy plays defense regardless of who is in CF. Plain and simple, Griff in CF doesn't effect Dunn's inability to take solid routes to balls, drop them or have hardly any arm in LF to take guys out at home or 2b.

I just see no point in labeling Hafner as a defensive liability at 1b, when Dunn is just occupying space in LF as well. Defense for these two guys is a wash no matter which one plays LF or 1b.

justincredible
09-11-2006, 10:23 AM
How many times has Hafner been on the DL in his short career? I couldn't find an actual list but I'm pretty sure it has been quite a few times. If he can't stay off the DL as a DH then no way do I want him playing first base on a daily basis. His yearly games would probably drop from 140 down to 120 or so.

I do think he is one of the top 10 all-around hitters in the game today but he needs to stay in the AL for his entire career if he is gonna stay healthy and have any chance at being around for a long time.

puca
09-11-2006, 10:26 AM
I agree with the premise that it is much harder to hide a poor defensive 1b than a poor defensive lf. A great defensive cf can hide a lot of the flaws of a subpar lf. On the other hand no one can cover for a 1b with poor footwork who, for that, or some other reason cannot catch the difficult throws.

I myself have made peace with the idea of trading Dunn, but only for the purpose of significantly improving our defense and pitching. Although he is a great hitter, Hafner accomplishes neither.

Always Red
09-11-2006, 10:35 AM
Bear with me, here, UK Reds Fan, I've been looking up defensive stats and defense is apparently a hard thing to quantify, statistically.

There are 2 measures that I've been seeing more, and more, to help to measure defensive play. They are range factor and zone rating.

Range Factor (RF) is: "(Putouts + Assists) x 9 divided by Defensive Innings Played. Range Factor simply stated is the number of plays MADE per game at the fielding position. It is better than Fielding Average in several respects: It can be calculated for almost any player this century and it takes into account the fielder's own ability to get to a batted ball - rewarding the more gifted players at each position. Positions can only be successfully compared to the same position on the field when using this statistic and early in the season numbers are often skewed as players chances are not yet normalized."

Zone Rating (ZR) is a defensive rating developed by STATS,Inc. "STATS, Inc. developed their own defensive rating system to also track locations of EVERY hit ball for EVERY game played - similar to the above Defensive Average statistic. The Zone Rating system is different because the area of responsibility, or zone, for each fielder is considered a "playable" area and does not account for balls hit into "Bermuda Triangles", "No Mans Land" or other impossible to field balls. A fielder that turns a double play is credited with 2 outs in the ZR system as their play on the ball actually resulted in both outs versus Defensive Average which only credits the 1 out. STATS, Inc. books area available at every bookstore and their work is updated on a yearly basis for player comparisons."

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/stats3.shtml

Using these two rating systems to look at Adam Dunn's defense reveals the following, since 2002:

In 2002, Dunn made 8 errors (E), had 9 assists (A), was 6th in qualifiers in RF and 11th in ZR
In 2003, he did not qualify as a LF (I think he was injured, and also played a bit of 1B that year, as I recall.)
in 2004, 8 E, 10A, 14th in RF, 11th in ZR
in 2005, 5 E, 6 A, 9th in RF and 12th in ZR
in 2006 thus far, 11 E, 5 A, 11th in RF and 16th in ZR.

Dunn has certainly not had a good year defensively, this year. But then I never said he was a good LF. I said he was average. The numbers show him to be avg-below avg, and maybe even getting worse, at least this year. I would say he is adequate, especially given his offensive abilities. If you cannot see how a CF with better range than Junior could help Dunn in left, then I cannot help you with that.

There are worse LF than Adam Dunn, believe it or not, who play out there very day. You could look it up! http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?seasonType=2&sortOrder=true&split=83&groupId=9&season=2005&qualified=null&sortColumn=zoneRating


Travis Hafner has no statistics at 1B to speak of; why would you take someone who has not played and expect them to do so, and then swear that they would as good a job as Dunn? I don't get it.

Danny Serafini
09-11-2006, 11:38 AM
Hafner is a designated hitter, period. Excellent hitter, but he simply cannot play the field. He's a much better fit for an AL team than he is for the Reds, so I wouldn't make the trade.

flyer85
09-11-2006, 11:49 AM
Hafner has no position. He is so bad defensively that Cleveland often sits him during interleague play in NL parks. In doingso they obviously feel that his superior offense is not worth the large downgrade in defense. Hafner is a DH, period.

osuceltic
09-11-2006, 12:12 PM
Hafner is a designated hitter, period. Excellent hitter, but he simply cannot play the field. He's a much better fit for an AL team than he is for the Reds, so I wouldn't make the trade.

It's amazing how quickly an NL team would overlook that lousy defense in order to get his bat in the lineup. Just as the Reds have done for Dunn.

Danny Serafini
09-11-2006, 12:33 PM
Travis Hafner makes Adam Dunn look like a Gold Glover. He's that bad.

Highlifeman21
09-11-2006, 12:36 PM
It's amazing how quickly an NL team would overlook that lousy defense in order to get his bat in the lineup. Just as the Reds have done for Dunn.

Dunn's defense is actually better than Hafner's. As stated by a few already, Hafner honestly has no postion. I put Hafner in the same defensive ineptitude as David Ortiz.

fewfirstchoice
09-11-2006, 01:37 PM
No,I wouldnt trade Dunn for the Hafner.Dunn is a guy who I really wouldnt mind see being dealt but not for Hafner.The Reds would need to get young pitching of they trade Dunn,he has the most upside of nay of there players and there for would bring the most value back.ANd we all know what Cincy needs, pitching.So use what can bring you the most to get what you need.

What about this deal,Dunn for Bonderman of Detroit.Detroit has been mentioned in possibly moving Bonderman and I would love to have him pitch at GABP every fifth day.

Always Red
09-11-2006, 02:01 PM
What about this deal,Dunn for Bonderman of Detroit.Detroit has been mentioned in possibly moving Bonderman and I would love to have him pitch at GABP every fifth day.

Only if it's for Bonderman and Zumaya, or Bonderman and Rodney.

I'd only trade Dunn straight up for an ace; their ace is Verlander, and I don't think they'll do that deal.

Either Zumaya or Rodney could both close for the Reds next year. They were very impressive when we saw them earlier in the year. They probably want to hang onto both, but especially Zumaya. Ask for him, and take Rodney instead.

All they can say is no.

Team Clark
09-11-2006, 02:54 PM
Only if it's for Bonderman and Zumaya, or Bonderman and Rodney.

I'd only trade Dunn straight up for an ace; their ace is Verlander, and I don't think they'll do that deal.

Either Zumaya or Rodney could both close for the Reds next year. They were very impressive when we saw them earlier in the year. They probably want to hang onto both, but especially Zumaya. Ask for him, and take Rodney instead.

All they can say is no.

I am with you 100%. Hafner would be a great addition to anyone's lineup but the Reds need QUALITY pitching. Dunn is the Blue Chip that could land Quality pitching. Leyland would have a field day with Dunn.

IslandRed
09-11-2006, 03:27 PM
OK, so Hafner only has full value to AL clubs. But AL clubs seem to have the best young pitching these days. So let's trade Dunn for Hafner and then trade Hafner right back to the AL for pitching. :D

I'm okay with keeping the big ol' lug, though.

markymark69
09-11-2006, 04:45 PM
I voted no. Hafner would likely hit higher and may be able to match Dunn's power numbers in GAPB, but I would think his defense would be worse or at least as bad as Dunn's. Why do you think he DH's? They moved Victor Martinez to first base after the Broussard trade for crying out loud. I know some would say so they can get Shoppach on the field, but frankly, I would take Martinez behind the plate, but I digress. There is a reason Hafner is a DH.

Plus, as was written earlier, Dunn is younger? Also, how many Reds teams have had a great defensive left fielder? I bring up names like George Foster, Kevin Mitchell, Kal Daniels, Greg Vaughn just to name a few. None of those players were defensive stalwarts.

Let's leave Dunn where he is or at least if we're going to deal let's get a couple of hammers for the pitching rotation.

joshnky
09-11-2006, 04:50 PM
Another teams players always seem better until they're on your team. Its when they become your team's players that you recognize that they have flaws as well. Thats my take on this poll which is currently 50-50.

Falls City Beer
09-11-2006, 07:21 PM
I'd trade Dunn for Hafner every minute for the rest of my life. I'll just live with him booting the ball over at first. Whatever. Hafner's the third best hitter in baseball. Dunn maybe cracks the top 20.

I love Dunn, but he doesn't approach Hafner.

Sabo Fan
09-11-2006, 07:57 PM
Dunn's younger and actually has a defensive position. Hafner's is "hitter." No thanks. Dunn is still getting better and I want to see his maturation as a hitter occur in a Cincinnati uniform.

Falls City Beer
09-11-2006, 08:11 PM
Dunn is still getting better


Is he?

He's a very good hitter, but he's hardly made tremendous strides the last two seasons.

johngalt
09-11-2006, 08:42 PM
I would take Hafner and laugh heartily for about 37 straight days.

Put him at first, let him boot some balls and live with it. He's an elite hitter who hits for power, average, and has excellent plate discipline.

He's what Dunn SHOULD aspire to be.

flyer85
09-11-2006, 08:53 PM
moot question because Cleveland would never do it. Hafner has a lot more value as a DH than as a 1B.

johngalt
09-11-2006, 08:59 PM
Dunn is still getting better and I want to see his maturation as a hitter occur in a Cincinnati uniform.

Dunn's OPS
2004 - 956
2005 - 927
2006 - 894

Hafner's OPS
2004 - 993
2005 - 1003
2006 - 1097

Who's getting better?

Team Clark
09-11-2006, 11:04 PM
Dunn's OPS
2004 - 956
2005 - 927
2006 - 894

Hafner's OPS
2004 - 993
2005 - 1003
2006 - 1097

Who's getting better?

Excellent point. I was wondering that myself. :thumbup:

Team Clark
09-11-2006, 11:05 PM
I'd trade Dunn for Hafner every minute for the rest of my life. I'll just live with him booting the ball over at first. Whatever. Hafner's the third best hitter in baseball. Dunn maybe cracks the top 20.

I love Dunn, but he doesn't approach Hafner.

True, True and well...True. :laugh: This is one of those times when even people who don't always agree can stand together and agree without question. :thumbup:

Highlifeman21
09-11-2006, 11:33 PM
I'd trade Dunn for Hafner every minute for the rest of my life. I'll just live with him booting the ball over at first. Whatever. Hafner's the third best hitter in baseball. Dunn maybe cracks the top 20.

I love Dunn, but he doesn't approach Hafner.



Career Numbers

Player H/162 HR/162 RBI/162 TB/162 BB/162 K/162 OBP SLG OPS AVG
Dunn 139 40 94 291 113 182 .381 .519 .900 .247
Hafner 164 37 118 322 86 137 .402 .583 .985 .297

Sign me up with FCB. While Hafner has no true position, he's quite possibly a good bad defensive 1B with a great bat, while Dunn is slowly coming back to a pedestrian middle of the road LF. I never thought I'd say that.

Spitball
09-12-2006, 12:38 AM
This has probably already been said, but why even trade a Dunn for a Hafner? If Dunn goes, the Reds need to get someting different than another version of the same guy. They need to acquire at least a starting pitcher, a quality shortstop, and a potential dominant bullpen arm. I mentioned on another thread, but I'd love to see him dealt to the Angels for Santana, Aybar, Figgins, and Shields. That would fill multiple holes.

guttle11
09-12-2006, 02:49 AM
This has probably already been said, but why even trade a Dunn for a Hafner? If Dunn goes, the Reds need to get someting different than another version of the same guy. They need to acquire at least a starting pitcher, a quality shortstop, and a potential dominant bullpen arm. I mentioned on another thread, but I'd love to see him dealt to the Angels for Santana, Aybar, Figgins, and Shields. That would fill multiple holes.

Did the tooth fairy give you that idea?

I'd carry Dunn on my back to the OC if we could get that deal, but Dunn's value on the market is no where near that level. That's ARod/Manny type stuff.

Ron Madden
09-12-2006, 03:32 AM
NO. :explode:

Spitball
09-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Did the tooth fairy give you that idea?

I'd carry Dunn on my back to the OC if we could get that deal, but Dunn's value on the market is no where near that level. That's ARod/Manny type stuff.

I disagree. The Angels have a wealth of young talent and a glaring need for a power hitter to go with Guerrero. Santana would be the only real sacrifice in that deal for Dunn. Aybar is behind Cabrera and his long term deal while AA shortstop prospect Brandon Wood has A-Rod type power potential. I can see Stoneman using Figgins and Shields to make the deal happen. They would have to give up that much for Tejada and Dunn makes more sense for them. The Angels are strong in infielders while they have less depth in the outfield. Plus, Dunn is cheaper and rumor/scandal free.

TOBTTReds
09-12-2006, 05:07 PM
I am with you 100%. Hafner would be a great addition to anyone's lineup but the Reds need QUALITY pitching. Dunn is the Blue Chip that could land Quality pitching. Leyland would have a field day with Dunn.

Although this is true, you could still trade Hafner for that pitching if they want to. My thought is, who would I rather have on my team everyday? The answer is a no brainer. I would rather take the #2 OPS guy that is a bad fielder at a less important position than the #33 OPS guys that is a bad fielder at a more important position. Hafner's on-base % is 67 points higher than Dunn's! His slugging is 136 points higher! Those numbers are ridiculous. Hafner is a monster, a true beast.

On the defensive side, having Hafner at 1st, and someone else in left would be an upgrade over Dunn in left, and Hatteberg at 1st.

Now consider the future though. I would much rather have Dunn and Votto in the lineup in two years than just Hafner. If we get Hafner, where does Votto go? Can't catch anymore, could play third but his arm is awful (then you would move EdE to 2nd?). Votto has to play first, and I wouldn't want to trade him if we get rid of Dunn.

So I guess my result is, no. Unless Votto could play LF, I don't want Hafner because then Votto would have to go. I would much rather have Votto and Dunn in the same lineup everyday, than just Hafner.

Team Clark
09-12-2006, 06:22 PM
Although this is true, you could still trade Hafner for that pitching if they want to. My thought is, who would I rather have on my team everyday? The answer is a no brainer. I would rather take the #2 OPS guy that is a bad fielder at a less important position than the #33 OPS guys that is a bad fielder at a more important position. Hafner's on-base % is 67 points higher than Dunn's! His slugging is 136 points higher! Those numbers are ridiculous. Hafner is a monster, a true beast.

On the defensive side, having Hafner at 1st, and someone else in left would be an upgrade over Dunn in left, and Hatteberg at 1st.

Now consider the future though. I would much rather have Dunn and Votto in the lineup in two years than just Hafner. If we get Hafner, where does Votto go? Can't catch anymore, could play third but his arm is awful (then you would move EdE to 2nd?). Votto has to play first, and I wouldn't want to trade him if we get rid of Dunn.

So I guess my result is, no. Unless Votto could play LF, I don't want Hafner because then Votto would have to go. I would much rather have Votto and Dunn in the same lineup everyday, than just Hafner.


I like it, I like it. Good post. Votto could solve a lot of potential problems for the Reds in the future if he continues his success.

Razor Shines
09-14-2006, 02:03 AM
Although this is true, you could still trade Hafner for that pitching if they want to. My thought is, who would I rather have on my team everyday? The answer is a no brainer. I would rather take the #2 OPS guy that is a bad fielder at a less important position than the #33 OPS guys that is a bad fielder at a more important position. Hafner's on-base % is 67 points higher than Dunn's! His slugging is 136 points higher! Those numbers are ridiculous. Hafner is a monster, a true beast.

On the defensive side, having Hafner at 1st, and someone else in left would be an upgrade over Dunn in left, and Hatteberg at 1st.

Now consider the future though. I would much rather have Dunn and Votto in the lineup in two years than just Hafner. If we get Hafner, where does Votto go? Can't catch anymore, could play third but his arm is awful (then you would move EdE to 2nd?). Votto has to play first, and I wouldn't want to trade him if we get rid of Dunn.

So I guess my result is, no. Unless Votto could play LF, I don't want Hafner because then Votto would have to go. I would much rather have Votto and Dunn in the same lineup everyday, than just Hafner.

Not only all those stats but Hafner has the highest VORP in the major leagues at 80, 4.5 points higher than Albert Pujols and 50 points higher than Adam Dunn. Mark me down for a yes.