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View Full Version : Worst Reds Trade(excluding FRobby)



redsupport
09-16-2006, 03:14 PM
I think it is among the following 5.
bill caudill to the cubs
bill dawley to the astros
mike caldwell to the brewers
charlie liebrandt to the royals
tony gonzalez to the phillies

redsmetz
09-16-2006, 03:58 PM
Paul O'Neill to the Yankees?

mth123
09-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Ross Grimsley for Merv Rettenmund?
Hal McRae for Roger Neslon and Richie Scheinbloom?
Chris Reitsma for Bubba Neslon and Jung Bong (when I knew Dano was over his head for sure)?

redsupport
09-16-2006, 04:06 PM
excellent suggestion, to which must be added
cesar tovar for gerry arrigo
roger nelson for hal macrae
ross grimsley for merv rettenmund
milt wilcox to the tigers for zero
and
giving claude osteen to the washington senators

RedsBaron
09-16-2006, 04:42 PM
Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie is the worst trade by the Reds ever, including the Frank Robinson deal. After this trade, Mathewson won 372 games for the Giants, while Rusie won zero for the Reds (or anybody else).

RFS62
09-16-2006, 04:43 PM
Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie is the worst trade by the Reds ever, including the Frank Robinson deal. After this trade, Mathewson won 372 games for the Giants, while Rusie won zero for the Reds (or anybody else).



Yep. No other trade even close to that.

redsupport
09-16-2006, 04:47 PM
I guess that settles it, although I was thinking that the trade of Jesse Gonder to the Mets was cataclysmic

mth123
09-16-2006, 05:08 PM
Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie is the worst trade by the Reds ever, including the Frank Robinson deal. After this trade, Mathewson won 372 games for the Giants, while Rusie won zero for the Reds (or anybody else).

You win:D

westofyou
09-16-2006, 05:26 PM
Joe Adcock for Rocky Bridges

Hank Sauer & Frankie Baumholtz for Harry Walker and Peanuts Lowrey

50K for Chick Hafey, but first had to borrow the 50 K from the Cardinals and then used it to buy Hafey... then had to pay the Cards back with interest.

Hafey only played in 83 games his first season and only topped 500 ab's 2 more times as a Red.

RedsBaron
09-16-2006, 06:57 PM
Hank Sauer & Frankie Baumholtz for Harry Walker and Peanuts Lowrey



I have been thinking about Sauer in recent days, after all the "trade Dunn" posts and Paul Daughery's silly column. Bill McKechnie was a HOF manager, but he was an extreme good defense regardless of offense manager, who almost certainly would both bench Dunn and would try to trade him if McKechnie was managing the Reds today.
McKechnie wouldn't play Hank Sauer, even though Sauer played great in the minors and showed he could hit in the majors; unfortunately he wasn't a good glove man. The Reds were long past McKechnie's glory years. After the 1946 season, when the Reds went 67-87 and were last in the majors in runs scored, McKechnie was fired. By the time Sauer got to play regularly in the majors, he was 31 years old. He hit 288 major league home runs, 281 after his 31st birthday, and most of those after he left the Reds. He hit more HRs after his 31st birthday than did Mike Schmidt, Jimmie Foxx, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson, Mickey Mantle, Ernie Banks or Harmin Killebrew. He was the 1952 NL MVP at age 35, leading the NL with 37 HRs and 121 RBI (actually, Jackie Robinson should've won the award that season, but I digress).
If Hank Sauer was with the Reds and, say, age 26 or 28 or 30, Paul Daugherty would probably be writing columns about how the Reds should trade Sauer and "hope" to get "value," and some posters here would be hoping for a scrappy glove man to play in leftfield.

westofyou
09-16-2006, 07:08 PM
I have been thinking about Sauer in recent days, after all the "trade Dunn" posts and Paul Daughery's silly column. Bill McKechnie was a HOF manager, but he was an extreme good defense regardless of offense manager, who almost certainly would both bench Dunn and would try to trade him if McKechnie was managing the Reds today.
McKechnie wouldn't play Hank Sauer, even though Sauer played great in the minors and showed he could hit in the majors; unfortunately he wasn't a good glove man. The Reds were long past McKechnie's glory years. After the 1946 season, when the Reds went 67-87 and were last in the majors in runs scored, McKechnie was fired. By the time Sauer got to play regularly in the majors, he was 31 years old. He hit 288 major league home runs, 281 after his 31st birthday, and most of those after he left the Reds. He hit more HRs after his 31st birthday than did Mike Schmidt, Jimmie Foxx, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson, Mickey Mantle, Ernie Banks or Harmin Killebrew. He was the 1952 NL MVP at age 35, leading the NL with 37 HRs and 121 RBI (actually, Jackie Robinson should've won the award that season, but I digress).
If Hank Sauer was with the Reds and, say, age 26 or 28 or 30, Paul Daugherty would probably be writing columns about how the Reds should trade Sauer and "hope" to get "value," and some posters here would be hoping for a scrappy glove man to play in leftfield.


Hank Sauer came to camp in Tampa in 1949 fresh off setting the Reds single season record for home runs, the 31-year-old WW 2 vet had worked his way through the Reds system since the early 1940’s and had starred at Rochester after the war, yet still he could get no interest from Warren Giles until 1948 when deadball era manager Bill McKetchnie finally left. It was then that he finally won the left field job and ended up the season with 35 home runs, a Reds team record. Sauer was a dead pull hitter playing in a park that boasted that it had the most expansive outfield in the major leagues, however the LF line was only 328 feet away and the wall was 18 feet high. However, operating under the adage that a manager knows best in the spring of 1949 Reds manager Bucky Walters entered camp with a pet project, he and his staff were going to get Hank Sauer to use the whole field, not only would he get 30 home runs buy he would rack up the doubles as well. Sauer was no spring chicken, and the 31 year old took offense to the request and promptly replied, “You wanted to provide power and I hit 35 homers, what in the hell is wrong with that?” Despite his pleas they still attempted the change, focusing much of the spring on taking the ball to right field. Sauer eventually worked so much that his hands swelled up from the change in approach, limiting all his baseball activities, it was then that the project was stopped and Sauer was allowed to return to his prior hitting approach. Because of the lack of regular work Sauer had a hard time finding his stroke in the early part of 1949 and by June he had only batted 152 times and he had only .673 OPS.

Once again the Reds brain trust made a move that they would rather forget than remember when they traded Sauer and Frank Baumholtz to the Cubs for Peanuts Lawrey and Harry Walker, a lopsided deal if there ever was one, this deal was later termed by Reds GM Warren Giles as “The worst deal I ever made.”

When asked by the Sauer why he was traded Bucky Walters replied, ”Because I couldn’t make an all around hitter out of you.” Sauer went on to hit 242 home runs for assorted teams around baseball and took home the MVP award in 1952. He never was much of a doubles hitter only topping 25 twice in his career. However his dead pull hitting made him a popular slugger in a hitter’s era and the Reds got nothing out of it other than the heartbreak of watching him do it in another teams uniform.

Bucky Walters was let go by the Reds after the 153rd game of the season. He never managed in the major leagues again.

I wonder why.

Falls City Beer
09-16-2006, 07:42 PM
I guess that settles it, although I was thinking that the trade of Jesse Gonder to the Mets was cataclysmic

The nadir.

KoryMac5
09-16-2006, 07:51 PM
Mathewson was a bad trade but there was much more to it:

Rusie for Mathewson
There's a lot more to the trade that sent Rusie to the Reds than meets the eye. Late in 1900, Cincinnati owner John Brush was in the process of completing a deal to buy controlling interest of the New York Giants from Andrew Freedman. Brush wanted desperately to get into the New York market. The deal was contingent on Brush being able to bring young pitcher Christy Mathewson with him. Freedman agreed to swap Rusie for Mathewson a few months before the sale of the teams, fully aware that Rusie's arm was shot. The deal was announced, Mathewson went to New York, Rusie went to Cincinnati and pitched just three games, and Brush bought the Giants from Freedman for a hefty price. Brush had smuggled in his ace, who would win 372 games for the Giants in 17 seasons.

westofyou
09-16-2006, 07:55 PM
Mathewson was a bad trade but there was much more to it:

Rusie for Mathewson
There's a lot more to the trade that sent Rusie to the Reds than meets the eye. Late in 1900, Cincinnati owner John Brush was in the process of completing a deal to buy controlling interest of the New York Giants from Andrew Freedman. Brush wanted desperately to get into the New York market. The deal was contingent on Brush being able to bring young pitcher Christy Mathewson with him. Freedman agreed to swap Rusie for Mathewson a few months before the sale of the teams, fully aware that Rusie's arm was shot. The deal was announced, Mathewson went to New York, Rusie went to Cincinnati and pitched just three games, and Brush bought the Giants from Freedman for a hefty price. Brush had smuggled in his ace, who would win 372 games for the Giants in 17 seasons.

Freedman also made some jack off o fthe deal.


Prior to the 1900 season Freedman cut a deal with Norfolk to purchase 19-year-old pitcher Christy Mathewson for $1500, first Freedman was given the opportunity to try him out. After going0-3 Freedman decided he wanted out of the deal and returned Matty to the Norfolk franchise, who promptly lost him for the cost of $100 in a waiver deal to the Cincinnati Reds. The Reds who were hardly a powerhouse could have used Mathewson; instead they traded him to the man (Freedman) who said he didn’t want him prior.

The cost?

Amos Rusie, the “Hoosier Thunderbolt” a man that had openly battled with Freedman and sat out the 1896 season in a salary protest. To compound matters Rusie had also not pitched in 1899 or 1900. Once a Reds he threw 3 games and promptly retired with arm troubles. Reds fans have forever lamented the loss of the future Hall of Famer, most unaware that the back door dealings of Brush and Freedman most likely engineered the whole deal with the goal of saving $1400 and screwing the Norfolk club.

Which they did in a major way.

fearofpopvol1
09-16-2006, 07:59 PM
Maybe not the same caliber, but the Konerko trade has to be mentioned.

Tony Cloninger
09-16-2006, 09:49 PM
The Konerko trade netted Cameron......not a stiff.....and he netted Griffey....so it was not even close to being a bad trade...unless you figure it would have been better to trade casey instead. Turns out it should have been that way, but i still do not believe it was an all time worst type trade.


Wilcox was traded to CLE for Ted Uhleander....who spent the 1972 season doing a good impersenation of the AB's Todd Holly has been giving this team off the bench.

This goes to show you how more valued offense was over pitching back then.

Here you have a good young pitcher......even with Wayne Simpson's arm in a bad state...but they figured with Billingham/Gullett (who had hepatitis in 1972) McGlothlin/Grimsley and Simpson.......were well covered for starters and with Carbo in the doghouse after 1971.....they needed a bat. (The reds only scored about 540 runs in 1971.........that must have been a fun year to watch)

So they trade him to CLE and he gets on the cover of SN with a very fast start......than hurts his arm....goes into the tank in 73-74.....pitches for the Cubs in 75 or 76...then resurfaces with DET and re-united with Sparky by 1979.

That trade is more like one of those where you feel they should have gotten more than just TU.....but TU was actually a good hitter in what was then a better pitcher's leauge in the AL (NO DH in 1971)......by better hitter...i just mean he could hit about .280-.300......which was really important in the popgun world of baseball offense that was the 70's, for most teams not in PITT, PHI or CIN.

fearofpopvol1
09-16-2006, 10:28 PM
unless you figure it would have been better to trade casey instead.

exactly.

redsupport
09-16-2006, 11:49 PM
casey was the most overhyped underclutch piece of bonhomie, a good rotarian but an rbi sieve

machineguy
09-17-2006, 01:50 AM
Tony Perez for Woody Fryman and Dale Murray. Big Doggie might have helped the Reds win another title or two. Fryman flaked out fast.

machineguy
09-17-2006, 01:53 AM
I think George Foster was traded for the most worthless Alex Trevino and Jim Kern and Greg Harris. Foster's career went downhill pretty quickly after that trade. Foster was an enigma. Maybe there are some parallels to Adam Dunn.

Hap
09-17-2006, 02:22 AM
Denny Neagle (with Mike Frank) to the Yankees for Ed Yarnall, Drew Henson, Brian Reith and Jackson Melian.

a microcosm of the Bowden era...

Patrick Bateman
09-17-2006, 03:00 AM
Denny Neagle (with Mike Frank) to the Yankees for Ed Yarnall, Drew Henson, Brian Reith and Jackson Melian.

a microcosm of the Bowden era...

I disagree. Part of evaluating trades is looking at it "at the time" the deal was done. It's unfair to base it completely on results. No prospect is guaranteed-even the best ones.

Drew Henson was one of the league's best prospects at the time. It was a fair return. Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it wont.

Plus we were able to flip henson for Pena, so the whole chain of events worked out.

Looking at the results is also part of the equation, but sometimes I would argue that it's luck based. For example, if Gary Majewski all of a sudden doubled his K/9 rate and became one of the best relievers in the league, I would still say that "the trade" was a very poor one. There is nothing that would indicate that Majewski will breakout. If he does, I will consider Krivsky lucky.

REDREAD
09-18-2006, 03:17 PM
Maybe not the same caliber, but the Konerko trade has to be mentioned.

I think the Reds won that trade. They got something they desparately needed, a gold glove CF with a plus bat in exchange for Konerko who took quite awhile to outperform Casey.

klw
09-18-2006, 05:01 PM
John Wettland to the Expos wasn't that great either.

b-gizz
09-18-2006, 05:25 PM
Not a trade but still, letting Trevor Hoffman go in the expansion draft looks bad now.

redsupport
09-18-2006, 05:26 PM
and scott pose went with him!!!

Blimpie
09-18-2006, 06:43 PM
casey was the most overhyped underclutch piece of bonhomie, a good rotarian but an rbi sieveDoes that mean that he "leaked RBI" onto the field?

redsupport
09-18-2006, 06:56 PM
good pick up, it means that rbi opportunities leaked through his bat

Degenerate39
09-19-2006, 08:36 PM
No one talks about Tony Perez? That ended our reign in the 70's.

redsmetz
09-19-2006, 11:28 PM
Denny Neagle (with Mike Frank) to the Yankees for Ed Yarnall, Drew Henson, Brian Reith and Jackson Melian.

a microcosm of the Bowden era...

Yeah, but Drew Henson brought us Wily Mo Pena who brought us Bronson Arroyo.

mth123
09-19-2006, 11:43 PM
I think Player to be named later for Ryan Franklin was pretty bad. We were robbed.

redsupport
09-19-2006, 11:47 PM
How about the poetic trade Scott Terry for Pat Perry

Blimpie
09-20-2006, 01:47 PM
Yeah, but Drew Henson brought us Wily Mo Pena who brought us Bronson Arroyo....who appeared in "Footloose" with Kevin Bacon.

Roy Tucker
09-20-2006, 02:56 PM
Jeff Russell in the Buddy Bell trade. Bell was pretty well used up and Russell went on to have some big relief years for Texas and others.

Russell had been 6-18 as a starter in '84, but the Reds circa '82-'84 really stunk up the joint.

redsupport
09-20-2006, 03:51 PM
what do you think of the big Aurelio MOnteagudo for Dennis Ribant epic swap

Roy Tucker
09-20-2006, 05:27 PM
what do you think of the big Aurelio MOnteagudo for Dennis Ribant epic swap

I liked the Ribant for Bo Belinsky trade better myself.

redsupport
09-20-2006, 05:30 PM
why?? that is a scandalous proposition, Ribant had a profound effect on the trmendous "arms" on that legendary and heralded 1969 Reds team. Lookl at how he helped delvelop the great Bill Short and Camilio Pascual. Only Mamie van doren would have preferred Bo Belinsky

Roy Tucker
09-20-2006, 05:35 PM
Belinsky's brief appearance on the 1970 staff had a profound effect on Mel Behney (who always reminded me of the punchline "there's the beer that made Mel Behney walk us").

redsupport
09-20-2006, 05:44 PM
Do you think the Reds would have won the pennant in 1970 without the exhilarating efforts of both Mel behney and Ray Washburn. I for one, think that the acquisition of Washburn started the Reds on their great 70's run. Of course Ty Cline was also a key ingredient

Wheelhouse
09-20-2006, 07:42 PM
The worst trade is without a doubt Paul O'Neill. Here's a winner:

· Six World Series appearances, five World Series rings.
· Winning twenty-three of the thirty World Series games he has appeared in. Do you think any other player has won a World Series in both leagues and swept in both? Do you think any other player in MLB history has played in three World Series sweeps?
· Five All-Star games.
* American League Batting Title 1994 - .359 average.
· Shares record for for most games in a season with four or more extra base hits (2): May 11 and September 13, 1991
· From 7/23/95- 5/7/97 Paul played 235 games without making an error.
· Led American League in hitting with men on base 1997 - .429.
· Relentlessly gunning guys out over the years with an arm designed like a Howitzer for the battlefield.
· 15 of 17 steal attempts in 1998. Who says 6'4" guys can't steal?
· The only player in Major League Baseball history to play on the winning side of three perfect games (Browning, Wells and Cone).
· August 25, 2001 - Paul becomes the oldest major leaguer to steal twenty bases and hit twenty homeruns in the same season.
· As a full time, non-designated hitter Paul was on the winning side of 16 of 19 post-season series.
· Paul is the first Yankee since Mickey Mantle from 1952-62 to hit at least 18 homeruns in nine consecutive seasons.
· Paul batted .474 in the 2000 Subway Series, tying a five-game record with nine hits.
· Had 24 hits and 16 walks in 27 World Series games.
· Led Reds in HRs, RBI, doubles and walks in 1991.

My kinda player.

redsupport
09-20-2006, 07:58 PM
yes but Roberto Kelly was a five tool player, he used a file, a scalpel, an adze, a monkey wrench and some flint

Falls City Beer
09-20-2006, 08:03 PM
yes but Roberto Kelly was a five tool player, he used a file, a scalpel, an adze, a monkey wrench and some flint

And a burin to engrave his name into Reds history.

TNRedleg
09-20-2006, 08:41 PM
I find it hard to believe that no one mentioned the 1999 deal in which we sent B.J. Ryan to the Orioles for Juan Guzman. Maybe we would still have Kearns if Ryan had not been traded.

texasdave
09-20-2006, 08:52 PM
trading david wells for curtis goodwin

Patrick Bateman
09-20-2006, 10:11 PM
I find it hard to believe that no one mentioned the 1999 deal in which we sent B.J. Ryan to the Orioles for Juan Guzman. Maybe we would still have Kearns if Ryan had not been traded.

That's all hindsight. You have to remember that knowone in the world thought he was going to be an elite closer. He was not that good of a prospect.

Guzman pitched very well down the stretch for us. Sometimes the unexpected happens. This time it bit us in the ass, but he would have priced himself out of Cincy last season anyways.

redsupport
09-20-2006, 11:47 PM
The valuable Jacob Segura was also included in the deal

redsmetz
09-21-2006, 02:40 PM
I think George Foster was traded for the most worthless Alex Trevino and Jim Kern and Greg Harris. Foster's career went downhill pretty quickly after that trade. Foster was an enigma. Maybe there are some parallels to Adam Dunn.

I was just looking at this trade and it occurred to me it had to be among the worst. I think the Reds were still in the stage where they were refusing to deal with Free Agency and were getting rid of players who would be eligible for free agency. Foster's first year with the Mets was mediocre, but the three seasons after that were not subpar, consistant with how he was with the Reds (leaving out his two monster years). He hit bewtween 24-28 homers, hitting a total of 114 for the Mets. I think part of his problem was he was one of the first huge dollar contract guys with the Mets and he didn't hit 40-50 home runs a year (when that was still something).

I'm sure somebody can pick apart those 1980's teams - those were enigmas!

redsupport
09-21-2006, 03:25 PM
the 1980's were a great time, why Dann Bilardello was an inspiration, he inspired Alan Knicely, Dave Van Gorder Terry McGriff and Brad Gulden all by himself

Falls City Beer
09-21-2006, 03:30 PM
the 1980's were a great time, why Dann Bilardello was an inspiration, he inspired Alan Knicely, Dave Van Gorder Terry McGriff and Brad Gulden all by himself



Why look to the past when the current decade remains a fecund manure pile unlike many other Reds' decades?

redsupport, you are living history; perpetuity will smile upon your encomia to these scoundrels.

westofyou
09-21-2006, 03:40 PM
I'd love the 80's right now. The Reds are almost to what I call 2nd Stage Stink, that's losing more games then you win for more then 5 straight seasons. If they finish under .500 this season they will mathc the run of futility that preceded Mathewson being the Reds manager. (1910-1916)

In that span the Reds built a new stadioum and had 4 managers, a guy with silver hair, a former ump, a former line in a poem and a guy who might best be known for fighting both Cobb and McGraw.

Despite the 6 straight losing seasons it still ain't as bad as it was from 29-37 or 45-55.

Therefore give me some 1980's results.... oh wait the Reds already had some of 87 this August.


1987 August 5th.

The Reds are in first place 58-50 4.5 games in front of the Astros and 5 games in front of the Giants, the Dodgers and Giants had both just left Cincinnati after losing two of three from the Reds. The 6th was an off day and the Reds headed west for a swing through San Francisco, L.A. and San Diego.

The Reds promptly lost 4 straight to the Giants and then split the four game set in L.A and took two of three from the Padres further south.

For the west coast trip Eric Davis and Dave Parker combined for 3 extra base hits in the 11 games, the Reds flew back east tied for first place with the surging Giants who went 17-6 from the arrival of the Reds until the first of September. In that same span the Reds went 6-18 and on the first of September the team was in 3rd place, sitting 6.5 games behind the Giants. The hitting dried up for the Reds that month, and a main culprit was Dave Parker who in 96 at bats produced the following line.
.219/.276/.302 adding to the stink was flashy young shortstop Barry Larkin who was equally putrid with the stick .240/.267/.281

For the month the line was clear, the hitting failed and the team was built on hitting. The Reds ended up exactly where they were on September first, 6 games behind the Giants. There was no need for detective work it was simple case. The Reds were a flawed team and the trip west triggered that flaw and the team never could get back on track.

.266/.330/.427 - Season
.245/.320/.367 - August

15fan
09-21-2006, 04:17 PM
The valuable Jacob Segura was also included in the deal

Sequea.

I, too, was fond of the Pat Perry for Scott Terry trade.

Here are some other faves:

Marc Kroon for Buddy Carlyle

Donny Sadler for Cary Ammons

Keith Kessinger for Greg Hillman

Jack Daugherty for Keith Carter.

redsupport
09-21-2006, 04:27 PM
Jack Daugherty now there' s good detective work by you. For that master sleuthing you get a free baseball card of Jim Dickson

redsupport
09-21-2006, 04:30 PM
by the way, I was exercising the other day, and who should the leadoff hitter be, for the Triple A championship team but the aforementioned star, Donnie Sadler, who then proceeded to triple!!

jpurdy974
09-21-2006, 04:44 PM
Tony Perez & Will McEnany for Woodie Fryman & Dale Murray

M2
09-21-2006, 04:49 PM
The Mathewson trade might be the worst ever. In fact I think David Nemec and Bill James have both referred to it as being the worst trade ever at various points of their careers.

O'Neill, Wetteland, Wells, Neagle and Perez are all worthy entrants too.

I don't see how anyone could complain about the deals that brought in Buddy Bell or Juan Guzman. Bell gave the Reds two solid seasons (for contending teams) and Guzman pitched some quality baseball for the team during a tight pennant race.

Some other screaming awful deals in Reds history include:

Curt Flood (and Joe Taylor) for Marty Kutyna, Ted Wieand and Willard Schmidt

Orval Overall and $2,000 for Bob Wicker

Charlie Liebrandt for Bob Tufts

Jay Howell for Mike O'Berry

Turkey Mike Donlin for Jimmy Sebring

Hans Lobert and Dode Paskert (with Fred Beebe and Jack Rowan) for Johnny Bates, Eddie Grant, George McQuillan and Lew Moren

Joe Adcock for Rocky Bridges and cash

Harry Coveleski, Jim Bagby, Hank Severeid, Jesse Tannehill, Jesse Haines, Danny Tartabull were all Reds prorperty early in their lives and all ended up starring elsewhere, though (far as I can tell) all were waiver claims/draft picks and not traded.

westofyou
09-21-2006, 04:55 PM
Harry Coveleski, Jim Bagby, Hank Severeid, Jesse Tannehill, Jesse Haines, Danny Tartabull were all Reds prorperty early in their lives and all ended up starring elsewhere, though (far as I can tell) all were waiver claims/draft picks and not traded.Add to that Ken Williams, Johnny Mize, Chris Chambliss (drafted twice would not sign), passing on an offer to buy Babe Ruth in 1914, losing Mike Kelly to the White Stockings, losing Crawford in the Peace Treaty, getting nothing from Eddie Joost and trading Smokey Burgess the first time

Cyclone792
09-21-2006, 05:33 PM
Christy Mathewson and Sam Crawford both gone back-to-back. Had the Reds held on to both those guys, their team history during the first 15 years of the 20th century would likely look far different.

Heck, it may have been the Reds, not the Pirates, that would have appeared in the first ever World Series for the National League in 1903. They may have even possibly beaten Boston for the first ever World Series championship too. A starting pitching duo of Mathewson/Hahn in 1903 along with an outfield of Seymour/Donlin/Crawford would have been a force. Imagine an opposing team facing Mathewson and Hahn every game during a short series. Even without Mathewson and Crawford, the Reds still had a nice season going 74-65.

M2
09-21-2006, 05:40 PM
Add to that Ken Williams, Johnny Mize, Chris Chambliss (drafted twice would not sign), passing on an offer to buy Babe Ruth in 1914, losing Mike Kelly to the White Stockings, losing Crawford in the Peace Treaty, getting nothing from Eddie Joost and trading Smokey Burgess the first time

There's roughly three squandered dynasties in that list. King Kelly could have made the Reds (instead of the White Sox) the cream of the crop in the 1880s.

Add Babe Ruth to Edd Roush, Jake Daubert, Heinie Groh, Dolph Luque, Eppa Rixey and Pete Donohoe (not to mention Ken Williams and Jesse Haines) and the 1919 Reds would have been one of many great Cincinnati teams from the era.

Though what happened at the close of the 19th century/start of the 20th century is the real smack in the head. When Sam Crawford, Mike Donlin, Christy Mathewson, Orval Overall and Jesse Tannehill have slipped through your fingers (not to mention Kip Selbach in what can only be described as a player laundering scandal), you've lost the chance to be on the short list of best teams ever.

4256 Hits
09-21-2006, 11:19 PM
The worst trade is without a doubt Paul O'Neill. Here's a winner:

· Six World Series appearances, five World Series rings.
· Winning twenty-three of the thirty World Series games he has appeared in. Do you think any other player has won a World Series in both leagues and swept in both? Do you think any other player in MLB history has played in three World Series sweeps?
· Five All-Star games.
* American League Batting Title 1994 - .359 average.
· Shares record for for most games in a season with four or more extra base hits (2): May 11 and September 13, 1991
· From 7/23/95- 5/7/97 Paul played 235 games without making an error.
· Led American League in hitting with men on base 1997 - .429.
· Relentlessly gunning guys out over the years with an arm designed like a Howitzer for the battlefield.
· 15 of 17 steal attempts in 1998. Who says 6'4" guys can't steal?
· The only player in Major League Baseball history to play on the winning side of three perfect games (Browning, Wells and Cone).
· August 25, 2001 - Paul becomes the oldest major leaguer to steal twenty bases and hit twenty homeruns in the same season.
· As a full time, non-designated hitter Paul was on the winning side of 16 of 19 post-season series.
· Paul is the first Yankee since Mickey Mantle from 1952-62 to hit at least 18 homeruns in nine consecutive seasons.
· Paul batted .474 in the 2000 Subway Series, tying a five-game record with nine hits.
· Had 24 hits and 16 walks in 27 World Series games.
· Led Reds in HRs, RBI, doubles and walks in 1991.

My kinda player.

I disagree at the time the Reds made the trade O'Neill was one year away from being a FA and they badly needed a CF. Kelly then had an good year for the Reds in 1993 (OBP-354 SLG-.475) and was an all-star. In 1994 had an OBP of .351 and SLG of .397 before being traded to the Braves. I can't remember or find who they got back can anybody help me out there?

Paul had a much better career but IMO in order to be the worst trade the player a team gets in return has to be really crappy and certainly not make the all-star team the year after the trade. And play 8 years (14 total) after the trade and end a career w/ 1390 hits, 124 HR, .290 AVG, .337-OBP and .430 SLG.

redsupport
09-21-2006, 11:29 PM
deion

bradmu
09-22-2006, 10:54 AM
Speaking of worst trades, this is a painful read...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060921&content_id=1675136&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I said I'd wait it out to make my decision on whether or not I liked this one, and I think I've seen enough. We could really use Kearns and Lopez back, as well as the Wagner who's pitching for Washington.

NastyBoy
09-22-2006, 08:56 PM
Speaking of worst trades, this is a painful read...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060921&content_id=1675136&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I said I'd wait it out to make my decision on whether or not I liked this one, and I think I've seen enough. We could really use Kearns and Lopez back, as well as the Wagner who's pitching for Washington.

This trade would have looked brilliant, unfortuanely it turns out you need pitch AND offense to win games. Ofcourse this trade opened up a spot for Denorfia and he has been raking it.

I really liked the part about the Reds decided to change Wagners and he gets rocked. Washington has him revert back to a 3/4 delivery and he is lights out. Do the Reds have some real idiots as pitching coaches or what?

bradmu
09-22-2006, 09:11 PM
This trade would have looked brilliant, unfortuanely it turns out you need pitch AND offense to win games. Ofcourse this trade opened up a spot for Denorfia and he has been raking it.

I really liked the part about the Reds decided to change Wagners and he gets rocked. Washington has him revert back to a 3/4 delivery and he is lights out. Do the Reds have some real idiots as pitching coaches or what?

Denorfia has played alright, but he is far from replacing Kearns offensively and defensively.