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Clay P
09-21-2006, 04:47 PM
The Reds are going nowhere next year unless they find a run producing right fielder. Kearns wasn't the answer and neither is Ryan Freel. The best solution is to sign a free agent. If they cannot do that or are not willing than let's see if Edwin can play right field, he certainly can't play 3rd base. If Edwin can play RF than Aurilla can play 3B. Move Phillips to SS and play Freel at 2B.

Red Leader
09-21-2006, 04:53 PM
Interesting post, but I think the defensive issues center around one position, centerfield.

You could shift Griffey over to RF and he becomes your run producing RFer. It would be nice if we could get a run producing centerfielder that provides good defense..but there aren't a plethora of those.

EE is fine at 3B. He's a young player. Give him some time to improve. He certainly can play 3B. He might be one of the best third basemen in the league if you just let him play there and show some patience with him...

Red Rover
09-21-2006, 05:09 PM
The Reds are going nowhere next year unless they find a run producing right fielder. Kearns wasn't the answer and neither is Ryan Freel. The best solution is to sign a free agent. If they cannot do that or are not willing than let's see if Edwin can play right field, he certainly can't play 3rd base. If Edwin can play RF than Aurilla can play 3B. Move Phillips to SS and play Freel at 2B.

Am I missing something? Are you suggesting Freel needs to be a 2B unstead of RF, or that EE will produce more runs if he is in RF vs 3B?

demas863
09-21-2006, 05:11 PM
I agree, When Edwin throws more overhand rather than 3/4's or sidearm on balls that he has to move to he seems to do ok. Throwing has been his problem. With a little time he's going to be a good one.

terminator
09-21-2006, 05:25 PM
Kearns was the answer. .265/.360, 23 HR, 84 RBI, 85 runs and above average defense (with 10 games to go) would look pretty good out there in right field especially when Hopper and Hollandsworth were in the OF in Houston.

I'm not sure what people wanted from Kearns. During his supposedly awful 2005 -- which was so "bad" that he was sent down to the minors -- he was on pace to drive in 100+ runs for the year. His career numbers don't lie -- 1800 ABs with 280 runs, 78 HR's and 297 RBI's. That's basically three full seasons worth of stats and it averages out to 26HR's and 99 RBI's per season with 93 runs scored and a .360 OBP (BTW, the Red's average is .337 OBP).

Topcat
09-22-2006, 12:42 AM
Kearns was the answer. .265/.360, 23 HR, 84 RBI, 85 runs and above average defense (with 10 games to go) would look pretty good out there in right field especially when Hopper and Hollandsworth were in the OF in Houston.

I'm not sure what people wanted from Kearns. During his supposedly awful 2005 -- which was so "bad" that he was sent down to the minors -- he was on pace to drive in 100+ runs for the year. His career numbers don't lie -- 1800 ABs with 280 runs, 78 HR's and 297 RBI's. That's basically three full seasons worth of stats and it averages out to 26HR's and 99 RBI's per season with 93 runs scored and a .360 OBP (BTW, the Red's average is .337 OBP).


What I wanted from Kearns was a fire in his belly that and it to also be shown by Dunn. That ARod SI article truly defined what is needed is players who are center pieces on a contending team. To use a hockey anology scoring 50 goals in regular season is nice but if its followed by crunch time collapses. they are nothing but a good dress rehearsal performer but when the lights come on there no where to be found.

RedsManRick
09-22-2006, 12:49 AM
If that guy who hit 40 homers and then goes 2-10 in a 3 game series doesn't hit 40 homers during the regular season, there are no lights.

reds44
09-22-2006, 12:58 AM
Ryan Freel can not play everyday.

The infield next year is going to be..........

EE, Phillips (SS), RA (2B), Hatteberg.

RA slides over to 1st with Freel playing 2B vs. lefties. Freel fills in at different positions vs. RHP. It's how he should be used.

Hopefully Griffey is traded, but if not he should go to RF and find a leadoff hitter (or Torri Hunter) to play CF.

mth123
09-22-2006, 07:14 AM
Ryan Freel can not play everyday.

The infield next year is going to be..........

EE, Phillips (SS), RA (2B), Hatteberg.

RA slides over to 1st with Freel playing 2B vs. lefties. Freel fills in at different positions vs. RHP. It's how he should be used.

Hopefully Griffey is traded, but if not he should go to RF and find a leadoff hitter (or Torri Hunter) to play CF.


Yup!

Heath
09-22-2006, 07:51 AM
9 Posts and no mention of Peter, Paul, & Mary's song "Right Field"

And I'm not going to do it.

Clay P
09-22-2006, 09:05 AM
No I'm saying that Edwin will play better in RF than 3B. If the Reds cannot make a deal for a power hitter (RF?) then it keeps the best bats in the lineup.

terminator
09-22-2006, 10:48 AM
What I wanted from Kearns was a fire in his belly that and it to also be shown by Dunn. That ARod SI article truly defined what is needed is players who are center pieces on a contending team. To use a hockey anology scoring 50 goals in regular season is nice but if its followed by crunch time collapses. they are nothing but a good dress rehearsal performer but when the lights come on there no where to be found.
Not everyone needs to be a leader. Dunn and Kearns would be fine if they are surrounded by a couple others like Vaughn. No one really wants a team full of Craig Counsel's, Ryan Freel's and Brady Clark's, even though we love their scrappy play.

I mean, if all eight position players had the stats of Dunn and Kearns -- four guys hitting .240/.370 with 100R/40HR/100RBI and four guys with .265/.360 with 90R/25HR/100RBI, I just wouldn't be concerned at all about the amount of "fire in their bellies." I'd sit back and watch the runs being scored.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-22-2006, 10:57 AM
If Griffey is back, he needs to be moved to LF. That is where you stick your worst defensive outfielder and you need an arm in RF and Griffey doesn't have one.

Dunn needs to be traded or moved to 1B. If traded, Hatteberg and Aurilia simply need to platoon at 1B until Votto is ready.

If Dunn is kept, he needs moved to 1B and Hatteberg needs traded or kept as insurance. In that case, Aurilia should not be re-signed.

Phillips needs to move to SS. EE stays at 3B. Denorfia or a FA in CF. Freel moves around between RF and 2B. 2B is either a FA or a Freel/Harris platoon.

Larue needs to go. Ross and Valentin at catcher until we can develop a decent replacement.

vaticanplum
09-22-2006, 11:20 AM
9 Posts and no mention of Peter, Paul, & Mary's song "Right Field"

And I'm not going to do it.

That is probably my favorite baseball song, not counting individual team fight songs. It actually makes me cry.

(and yes, it's what I thought of when I saw this topic too.)

Highlifeman21
09-22-2006, 11:49 AM
Ryan Freel can not play everyday.

The infield next year is going to be..........

EE, Phillips (SS), RA (2B), Hatteberg.

RA slides over to 1st with Freel playing 2B vs. lefties. Freel fills in at different positions vs. RHP. It's how he should be used.

Hopefully Griffey is traded, but if not he should go to RF and find a leadoff hitter (or Torri Hunter) to play CF.


You had me until you mentioned the out-making machine, Torii Hunter. That would be the same Torii Hunter with a career OPS of .785, .323 of which comes from OBP. Combine his declining defensive skills (due to age) along with his propensity to not get on base, and he's the perfect player for the Reds to avoid.

Ryan Freel is not an everyday player, and I think most people could agree upon that notion.

joshnky
09-22-2006, 01:17 PM
No I'm saying that Edwin will play better in RF than 3B. If the Reds cannot make a deal for a power hitter (RF?) then it keeps the best bats in the lineup.

How?? This makes no sense to me at all. How would EE's play improve by switching to a new, unfamiliar position?

Kc61
09-22-2006, 05:55 PM
Ryan Freel can not play everyday.

The infield next year is going to be..........

EE, Phillips (SS), RA (2B), Hatteberg.

RA slides over to 1st with Freel playing 2B vs. lefties. Freel fills in at different positions vs. RHP. It's how he should be used.

Hopefully Griffey is traded, but if not he should go to RF and find a leadoff hitter (or Torri Hunter) to play CF.

Unless the Reds "blow up" the whole roster, I think you are correct that the most likely spot for a new starting player is centerfield. I agree Freel should be used as you suggest.

If Griffey moves to right, a new centerfielder comes in, and another starting arm (at the Arroyo/Harang level of better) is acquired, the Reds should be poised for improvement. I think that's the bare minimum the Reds should do.

ochre
09-22-2006, 05:57 PM
Hatteberg and Aurilia should only be seen as peas in platoon pod.

reds44
09-22-2006, 06:22 PM
You had me until you mentioned the out-making machine, Torii Hunter. That would be the same Torii Hunter with a career OPS of .785, .323 of which comes from OBP. Combine his declining defensive skills (due to age) along with his propensity to not get on base, and he's the perfect player for the Reds to avoid.

Ryan Freel is not an everyday player, and I think most people could agree upon that notion.
Wow, you owned me.

Well I guess we should go looking for that leadoff man then.
:lol:

mth123
09-22-2006, 07:23 PM
You had me until you mentioned the out-making machine, Torii Hunter. That would be the same Torii Hunter with a career OPS of .785, .323 of which comes from OBP. Combine his declining defensive skills (due to age) along with his propensity to not get on base, and he's the perfect player for the Reds to avoid.

Ryan Freel is not an everyday player, and I think most people could agree upon that notion.

Some good points here about Hunter, but he does have some RH POP which this team needs (especially if Aurilia goes). As for his defense, even in his decline, he would be the best we've had in an every day caliber CF since Eric Davis in his prime (except the one year we had Mike Cameron). He also brings badly needed athleticism. Options are somewhat limited and Hunter may not be one either, but he would be the best choice with the possible exception of Cameron (who also may not be available). I just wouldn't go over 3 years.

I don't think this team has enough offense to carry an OF that can't slug a little bit. Please no Pierres or Robertses. Not sure Deno will hit enough for this team either. He may be a player of some value, but doesn't fill what this team needs. He's an ok fall back option. I would rather try him than invest in another speedy no power guy though.

Highlifeman21
09-23-2006, 04:45 AM
Some good points here about Hunter, but he does have some RH POP which this team needs (especially if Aurilia goes). As for his defense, even in his decline, he would be the best we've had in an every day caliber CF since Eric Davis in his prime (except the one year we had Mike Cameron). He also brings badly needed athleticism. Options are somewhat limited and Hunter may not be one either, but he would be the best choice with the possible exception of Cameron (who also may not be available). I just wouldn't go over 3 years.

I don't think this team has enough offense to carry an OF that can't slug a little bit. Please no Pierres or Robertses. Not sure Deno will hit enough for this team either. He may be a player of some value, but doesn't fill what this team needs. He's an ok fall back option. I would rather try him than invest in another speedy no power guy though.


While we're on a Torii Hunter tangent...

Career OPS of .785. If Denorfia gives us that, it's a plus. Denorfia, IMO is right now a better defensive option in CF over Torii Hunter. Like Cyclone's said, a .750 OPS is the going rate for an average CF, so once you factor in Denorfia's defensive abilities with that .750, then he's definitely the bargain of all bargains for what we'd pay him.

We don't need to go out in the offseason and throw some Milton-esque contract at some CF that we don't need. Keep what we have, and play #19 in CF. Lose #3.

mth123
09-23-2006, 05:23 AM
While we're on a Torii Hunter tangent...

Career OPS of .785. If Denorfia gives us that, it's a plus. Denorfia, IMO is right now a better defensive option in CF over Torii Hunter. Like Cyclone's said, a .750 OPS is the going rate for an average CF, so once you factor in Denorfia's defensive abilities with that .750, then he's definitely the bargain of all bargains for what we'd pay him.

We don't need to go out in the offseason and throw some Milton-esque contract at some CF that we don't need. Keep what we have, and play #19 in CF. Lose #3.

If I really believed that Deno could OPS .750 I would totally agree. Watching him play makes me think his offense will be Castroesque. I would be happy to be wrong. With Rich leaving and probable drops in production in Hat, Phillips, Griffey and the catching spot, the team can not afford to carry a no hit CF. They really need RH power. It doesn't need to be a 40 HR guy, but some one to bat 6th or so and slug .450. I agree with you on Hunter's OBP. I just see Deno being similar with no power. If Votto was ready to add a middle of the order threat I might feel a little differently.

The other question is will Griffey move for Deno? I really believe that it was part of the plan in the Kearns trade that never materialized for some reason. One of the reasons that Kearns was a trade candidate in the first place was to make room for Griffey in RF. I think Griffey would move for some one he views as a star caliber CF. This issue all my own conjecture of course.

Highlifeman21
09-23-2006, 01:26 PM
If I really believed that Deno could OPS .750 I would totally agree. Watching him play makes me think his offense will be Castroesque. I would be happy to be wrong. With Rich leaving and probable drops in production in Hat, Phillips, Griffey and the catching spot, the team can not afford to carry a no hit CF. They really need RH power. It doesn't need to be a 40 HR guy, but some one to bat 6th or so and slug .450. I agree with you on Hunter's OBP. I just see Deno being similar with no power. If Votto was ready to add a middle of the order threat I might feel a little differently.

The other question is will Griffey move for Deno? I really believe that it was part of the plan in the Kearns trade that never materialized for some reason. One of the reasons that Kearns was a trade candidate in the first place was to make room for Griffey in RF. I think Griffey would move for some one he views as a star caliber CF. This issue all my own conjecture of course.

The way I view the Reds going forward, and I could be way off here, is that we have a power bat from either side of the plate with Dunn and EE respectively. We have two speed guys, Denorfia and Phillips, that should provide OBPs in the neighborhood of .350, give or take 10%. I will admit, I'm not sold with either of those options as a leadoff guy, unless either one could get the OBP above the .375 mark. Can that happen for either? Denorfia's AAA numbers over the past few seasons suggest he has a better chance than Brandon Phillips. I'm not sold that we need another RH power bat.

Ideally, using our current pieces, I humbly offer this lineup for next year.

Denorfia CF
Hatteberg 1B
Dunn LF
EE 3B
Griffey RF
Aurilia 2B
Phillips SS
Ross C
Pitcher

My only concern is that I'm not sure Aurilia is an everday player anymore, so we'd have a rotation of Hatteberg, Aurilia, and Freel between 1B and 2B.

Part of me wishes we could ship Griffey to the White Sox for some pitching and Scott Podsednik, but even his OBP concerns me. He's definitely a lead off type hitter, and I'd like him there over Denorfia, but his .342 career OBP doesn't jump out and excite me.