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View Full Version : Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?



Will M
09-22-2006, 03:21 PM
check out this site:

http://www.benmaller.com/#mlb_rumors_notes

It seems the Red Sox want to dump Crisp due to a poor 2006.

Could the Reds get him on the cheap?

Would you want him in CF?

cincrazy
09-22-2006, 03:43 PM
I would take him for the right price. I think a change of scenery would do him good, and I think Boston isn't a good place for a guy like him. With that being said, I'd want Boston to pick up a big portion of the contract, because the guy has been a complete bust there this year.

M2
09-22-2006, 03:48 PM
If the Red Sox get short-sighted on Crisp, I'd love to relieve them of his presence. In fact I expect he'll have a break out season next year.

Red Leader
09-22-2006, 03:57 PM
If the Red Sox get short-sighted on Crisp, I'd love to relieve them of his presence. In fact I expect he'll have a break out season next year.

My fantasy team was disappointed not to see Melvin Mora among the AL MVP candidates. ;)

I agree that Crisp will have a breakout season next year,but I don't think that'll happen in Boston. I agree that he doesn't belong there. Defensively, he would be a nice upgrade in CF. Not sure where I'd hit him, though. I think Crisp is more of a 2 hole or 6 hole hitter, but I know Jerry would stick him in the lead off spot, or 7th,

pedro
09-22-2006, 04:01 PM
Boston remains focused on figuring out a way to acquire center fielder Andruw Jones from Atlanta, but a first step is for the Red Sox to unload disappointing Coco Crisp and the three-year, $15.5 million extension he was given before playing his first game in Boston.
-- Rocky Mountain News

Edd Roush
09-22-2006, 04:09 PM
Red Sox fans like seeing home runs, how about we trade them Eric Milton and they will get to see plenty of them. Too bad they will be for the other team.

Red Leader
09-22-2006, 04:09 PM
Boston remains focused on figuring out a way to acquire center fielder Andruw Jones from Atlanta, but a first step is for the Red Sox to unload disappointing Coco Crisp and the three-year, $15.5 million extension he was given before playing his first game in Boston.
-- Rocky Mountain News

Maybe a LaRue + prospect for Crisp trade would work? Wakefield's option will probably be picked up, though, and that means Doug Mirabelli will probably be back as his personal catcher, making LaRue useless to them.

KronoRed
09-22-2006, 04:13 PM
Get him and bury him away from the lead off spot, should explode there.

crazybob60
09-22-2006, 04:36 PM
Unless we are getting him on the cheap or getting him in a deal that would send away some of our higher priced players/contracts (ie LaRue) I just wouldn't do it. I have never really been a been fan/propenent of Crisp for some reason. Even back in Cleveland.

Will M
09-22-2006, 04:48 PM
I am of the opinion we need someone besides KGJ in CF.

Freel can play there but not everyday.

If I were WK I would inquire about Crisp

mth123
09-22-2006, 05:23 PM
I like Crisp and would happily take him here. As was metioned, I'd bat him down in the order 6 or so.

I haven't seen him play so no way to verify, but I've read that he's had a bad year on defense as well as offense. I have only seen this sporadically and don't know what to make of it. Anyone with more info please share.

REDREAD
09-22-2006, 06:05 PM
I love Crisp's tools. It's a bit of a risk though to pick up his contact when he has a lifetime OBP 329 and SLG of 416.

To put things in perspective, In 2002, Reggie Taylor posted a OBP 291 and SLG of 429 [720 OPS] which is only .025 lower than Crisp's lifetime OPS numbers and better than Crisp's numbers this year [702 OPS]. Obviously, Taylor was not very popular around here.

If we get Crisp, it will help the defense a lot (which is a worthy goal), but then it limits our options for improving the offense. I'm on the fence on this one. If we still had Lopez or could persuade Dunn to move to 1b, I'd feel a lot better about it. (I assume the Reds won't acquire a new 1b since they extended Hat).

fewfirstchoice
09-22-2006, 06:10 PM
How about this guys:

Dino (prospect)
Milton (guy who fenway may help)
LArue (a solid backup to Varitek)

for

Crisp (CF wiht speed and can lead off)
Clement (another bust pitcher)

But for this to work I believe the Red Sox would have to pay around %-7 mil of Crisp new contract and a couple mil of Clements,but they can afford it.

This would give Cincy a CF and a pitcher not named Milton.The Reds might have to give up another prospect or Switch Freel out with Dino if Boston kicks in money but i believe it could work and help both teams out.

blumj
09-22-2006, 06:17 PM
I like Crisp and would happily take him here. As was metioned, I'd bat him down in the order 6 or so.

I haven't seen him play so no way to verify, but I've read that he's had a bad year on defense as well as offense. I have only seen this sporadically and don't know what to make of it. Anyone with more info please share.

He's had his moments, mental errors, weak arm, misjudging flyballs. He's had his great moments, too, because his speed and athleticism can make up for a lot. I don't want the Red Sox to trade him. I don't think his finger ever healed properly, and I expect him to do much better offensively next year no matter where he's playing, if he's healthy. But if the Red Sox do dump him at a discount after targeting him specifically and giving up so much to get him, then they deserve to have to watch him play really well for someone else.

Red Leader
09-22-2006, 06:20 PM
He's had his moments, mental errors, weak arm, misjudging flyballs. He's had his great moments, too, because his speed and athleticism can make up for a lot. I don't want the Red Sox to trade him. I don't think his finger ever healed properly, and I expect him to do much better offensively next year no matter where he's playing, if he's healthy. But if the Red Sox do dump him at a discount after targeting him specifically and giving up so much to get him, then they deserve to have to watch him play really well for someone else.


Man, you're good. This from Rotoworld.com moments ago:


Coco Crisp is scheduled to undergo surgery on his left index finger Monday.

There is a fracture in the bone that will require a pin or a screw to be inserted. The Red Sox haven't commented further, but it sounds like the injury he suffered in April never healed correctly. If that's the case, his disappointing performance is certainly more undertstandable. The Red Sox will finish the year with David Murphy and Gabe Kapler in center field.

reds44
09-22-2006, 06:23 PM
Who would lead off?

We need to find a leadoff hitter this offseason to play CF.

KronoRed
09-22-2006, 06:27 PM
Freel at 2nd.

reds44
09-22-2006, 06:36 PM
Freel at 2nd.
vs. LHP

Not everyday.

westofyou
09-22-2006, 06:43 PM
Milton (guy who fenway may help)

Yeah, like how a cross can help Dracula.

westofyou
09-22-2006, 06:45 PM
How about this guys:

Dino (prospect)
Milton (guy who fenway may help)
LArue (a solid backup to Varitek)

for

Crisp (CF wiht speed and can lead off)
Clement (another bust pitcher)

But for this to work I believe the Red Sox would have to pay around %-7 mil of Crisp new contract and a couple mil of Clements,but they can afford it.

Give me that deal, oh and the cash too.

johngalt
09-22-2006, 06:51 PM
Talk about consistency for Crisp:

Lifetime before the All-Star Game - .328 OBP, .415 slugging

Lifetime after the All-Star Game - .329 OBP, .417 slugging

klw
09-22-2006, 06:56 PM
Freel at 2nd.

Soriano at 2nd.:)

mth123
09-22-2006, 07:03 PM
How about this guys:

Dino (prospect)
Milton (guy who fenway may help)
LArue (a solid backup to Varitek)

for

Crisp (CF wiht speed and can lead off)
Clement (another bust pitcher)



I actualy thought about packaging Deno as well when I read this thread.

Acquiring Crisp may be difficult without cutting deeply. I think Milton would be a poor fit as a LHP who is flyball prone. The Green Monster would never be the same after all the dents it would absorb. I can't see Boston having any interest in Larue (Varitek) or Milton (see above).

Actually, given the Red Sox projected needs, I think they would only want Edwin or Phillips for Crisp or we give up Votto and give them PR relief. (They would probably take Arroyo back.) I wouldn't do that from Cincy perspective.

I'd try to work something out invlolving Deno and a reliever (Coffey, Majewski, Bray). Cormier would be great from a cincy perspective. I doubt Boston would do it. Maybe Cormier and Deno and Cincy absorbs the Payroll hit. I think Boston would have to have a ready replacement before they trade Crisp.

fewfirstchoice
09-22-2006, 08:41 PM
Noway i give up EE or Phillips for Crisp.But Dino and a releiver sounds good if the deal I stated above couldnt get worked out.

Highlifeman21
09-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Talk about consistency for Crisp:

Lifetime before the All-Star Game - .328 OBP, .415 slugging

Lifetime after the All-Star Game - .329 OBP, .417 slugging

Consistently bad...

I'm sure Rickey Henderson, at age 40whatever, could still give us better leadoff numbers than the guys we've been kicking around the board.

Let's give him a call, and see if his buddy Jose Canseco wants to come pitch for us as well.

vaticanplum
09-23-2006, 01:51 PM
Boston remains focused on figuring out a way to acquire center fielder Andruw Jones from Atlanta, but a first step is for the Red Sox to unload disappointing Coco Crisp and the three-year, $15.5 million extension he was given before playing his first game in Boston.
-- Rocky Mountain News

I think Theo Epstein is losing his creativity and perspective with age.

pedro
09-23-2006, 02:39 PM
I think Theo Epstein is losing his creativity and perspective with age.


I think he may be falling into the trap of leaning too heavily on his high payroll to fix problems rather than really looking for solid long term solutions. I'd imagine after the relatively poor year they had that this year will really be a watershed offseason in evaluating Theo as a GM.

cincinnati chili
09-23-2006, 03:16 PM
I think Theo Epstein is losing his creativity and perspective with age.

I wouldn't be so sure that Theo is calling the shots in Boston. And if he is, I'm not sure he called the Coco Crisp shot.

Crisp is absolutely not a leadoff hitter. Maybe if you have a crystal ball you can say he'll be worth that contract next year, but he's done nothing in his career (even 2005) to suggest to me that he's worth it.

blumj
09-23-2006, 03:25 PM
Or maybe some people are giving a little too much credence to a line in a Colorado paper? Don't you have to wonder what might be in it for the Rockies to start tagging Coco Crisp as a less than desirable commodity? Especially now that he has a reasonable excuse for a less than stellar season.

Falls City Beer
09-23-2006, 03:31 PM
I've always felt Crisp is yet another piece of the overhyped Cleveland system.

blumj
09-23-2006, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't be so sure that Theo is calling the shots in Boston. And if he is, I'm not sure he called the Coco Crisp shot.

I am. I'm not sure about some of the others, but that one didn't happen until after he came back officially. If he didn't have the power to make decisions at that exact moment, he's never had any power at all.

KronoRed
09-23-2006, 04:52 PM
vs. LHP

Not everyday.
They stuck Rich at SS this year, defense is not a concern for this management team ;)

KronoRed
09-23-2006, 04:52 PM
Soriano at 2nd.:)
20million a year :devil:

gilpdawg
09-23-2006, 06:06 PM
I'm not a big fan of Crisp, myself.

RedsManRick
09-23-2006, 06:53 PM
If you want a CF who can go out and put up a .750 OPS in the AL (translates to lower in the NL), why not just play Denorfia and be done with it? Deno would play better defense and profiles to a very similar to player to Crisp offensively. Only catch is, we wouldn't have to trade anybody to get him.

mth123
09-23-2006, 07:16 PM
If you want a CF who can go out and put up a .750 OPS in the AL (translates to lower in the NL), why not just play Denorfia and be done with it? Deno would play better defense and profiles to a very similar to player to Crisp. Only, we wouldn't have to trade anybody to get him.

I'm starting to come around to that way of thinking. I think this team needs offense and I'm not sure Deno gives enough. I also think that there are too many question marks so I'd rather know what I'm going to get. Certain ok seems better than a potential for Castro level production. My biggest problem with Deno is that he has always been old for his league before putting up good stats. I fear a AAAA type who won't hit in the bigs. Seeing him play makes me even more concerened. I would rather have Deno than Roberts, Pierre, Lofton or any of the no power types. But If there is a guy who we can be reasonably cetain will hit 15 to 20 HR and slug .450 I think this team needs that. If I thought Deno could do that I would be ok with it. Crisp slugged .446 in 2004 and .465 in 2005. 2006 is not normal because of the nagging injuries. Deno didn't slug that much until age 24 in A+ ball or 25 in AA and AAA.

I don't agree that there would be a fall off in the NL. The NL is weaker right now and GABP is a good place to hit.

You guys are talking me into it on Deno though. He isn't my last choice. I just want more pop to go with the defense. Convince me of that and I'm sold.

M2
09-25-2006, 03:36 PM
I wouldn't be so sure that Theo is calling the shots in Boston. And if he is, I'm not sure he called the Coco Crisp shot.

Crisp is absolutely not a leadoff hitter. Maybe if you have a crystal ball you can say he'll be worth that contract next year, but he's done nothing in his career (even 2005) to suggest to me that he's worth it.

Crisp was an .800 OPS player at ages 24 and 25 (2005 VORP of 30.2 playing LF). He's slumped this year (and I think it's been pretty clear how much that hand has been bothering him all season). Yet his base stealing efficiency has been on a steady improve the last two seasons and he plays solid defense.

So he's got a well-rounded game and it's a fairly safe assumption that as he enters what should be his prime that he should exceed that .800 OPS level he reached in his mid-20s. Would I be interested in a .825-.875 OPS CF with some tools? Uh, yeah, I'd like that quite a bit.

lollipopcurve
09-25-2006, 03:48 PM
How about...

Coco, Shields and Kendrick to the Reds

Dunn to the Bosox

Manny (and Freel?) to the Angels

M2
09-25-2006, 05:58 PM
Just as a point of information, Crisp signed a LTC with the Sox in April he'll be paid salaries of $3.5 million in 2007, $4.75 million in 2008 and $5.75 million in 2009. The deal contains an $8 million team option for 2010 with a $500,000 buyout.

My two cents on that are you'd be hard-pressed to find a capable, experienced everyday OF for less.

M2
09-25-2006, 06:03 PM
How about...

Coco, Shields and Kendrick to the Reds

Dunn to the Bosox

Manny (and Freel?) to the Angels

Hell, go hog wild.

Manny and Crisp for Jr. and Milton

Degenerate39
09-25-2006, 06:15 PM
Hell, go hog wild.

Manny and Crisp for Jr. and Milton

Then we have two awful fielders (manny and Dunn) and one good one in the outfield.

*But I would love to see Manny in Cincy. I'd rather have Big Papi but beggars can't be choosers

M2
09-25-2006, 06:15 PM
Then we have two awful fielders (manny and Dunn) and one good one in the outfield.

Dunn would move to 1B.

Hoosier Red
09-25-2006, 06:23 PM
And move Hatteberg to LF?!?!? Now that's just asinine. Our defense is bad enough without guys playing their 5th or 6th best position.
:devil: :devil: :devil:

M2
09-25-2006, 06:25 PM
And move Hatteberg to LF?!?!? Now that's just asinine. Our defense is bad enough without guys playing their 5th or 6th best position.
:devil: :devil: :devil:

As a cagey vet, I figured Hatteberg would play SS.

Red Leader
09-25-2006, 06:28 PM
As a cagey vet, I figured Hatteberg would play SS.

Well, his VORP would definately go up, and he is scrappy.

pedro
09-25-2006, 06:36 PM
nm

Degenerate39
09-25-2006, 08:39 PM
I've always liked Coco Crisp, personally. His downsides outweight the good though. He pasically has no power, he's only batted for 300 once in his short career. He doesn't steal that many bases like we need. But he has a good glove which is what we need in our outfield. He's only got like 10 errors in his career. That might not be saying much when Griffey only has 40 errors in his career which is more than doubled Coco's. But with the addition of Coco's glove in center it might convince old man Griffey to move over to Right Field or Left Field. Then we'd have Griffey, Dunn, and Coco in our outfield which allows Brandon Phillips to move to Short (which seems to be a popular opinion on here) and it allows Ryan Freel to move to second for the majority of the season.

TC81190
09-25-2006, 09:52 PM
I like Crisp. For both name value and skills.

I also would like the Reds to inquire Arizona about Chris Young.

blumj
09-25-2006, 10:28 PM
He doesn't steal that many bases like we need.
He could, though. The Indians and Red Sox are notoriously ultra cautious about stealing, especially since he was often hitting in front of their big bats.

cincinnati chili
09-25-2006, 11:58 PM
Crisp was an .800 OPS player at ages 24 and 25



And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.

cincinnati chili
09-26-2006, 12:05 AM
I am. I'm not sure about some of the others, but that one didn't happen until after he came back officially. If he didn't have the power to make decisions at that exact moment, he's never had any power at all.

Yeah, this article suggests you are correct:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/29/crisp_catches_some_praise/?page=1

unless Theo was doing a major spin job to cover the organization's back.

mth123
09-26-2006, 12:07 AM
I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.

I agree. I'd want him for his slugging and bat him 6th. Don't really care about the steals. Dunn, EE, JR, Crisp. 3,4,5,6. Right now there is no power for the #6 spot.

Red Sox won't let him go w/o a viable option in CF. Since we've been looking at that a lot lately, I'm pretty convinced there aren't any.

Puffy
09-26-2006, 11:07 AM
And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.

I don't think M2 would put him at leadoff - I know I wouldn't, but I would take him on the Reds in a heartbeat.

I'd lean to something like this:

1B Dunn
2B Not sure - Todd Walker would be nice though
SS Phillips
3B EdE
LF Freel
CF Crisp
RF Griffey
C Ross/Valentin

Then you need two things - a strong backup who can play second and short (yes, even Aurilia would do) and a strong 4th outfielder to rest Freel and Junior and get 2 to 3 starts every week (think Michael Tucker in 99).

M2
09-26-2006, 11:32 AM
And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.

Call me crazy, but I'll bet that OB number goes up during the seasons he plays between ages 27 and 30. Combine that with his new-found efficiency in base stealing, his glove and 40-double/15-homer power and you've got a good player. I'm not really all that concerned with where he hits. All I know is that where to bat an effective player like that is a problem I wish the Reds had more of.

As for worth the money, I'll invoke Beane here. Pay for the performance you expect, not the last three years. Given what Crisp was doing when healthy in 2004 and 2005 I think it's pretty safe to project that his prime seasons will make his contract a relative steal.

blumj
09-26-2006, 12:55 PM
Call me crazy, but I'll bet that OB number goes up during the seasons he plays between ages 27 and 30. Combine that with his new-found efficiency in base stealing, his glove and 40-double/15-homer power and you've got a good player. I'm not really all that concerned with where he hits. All I know is that where to bat an effective player like that is a problem I wish the Reds had more of.

As for worth the money, I'll invoke Beane here. Pay for the performance you expect, not the last three years. Given what Crisp was doing when healthy in 2004 and 2005 I think it's pretty safe to project that his prime seasons will make his contract a relative steal.
I don't think you're crazy at all. You're seeing exactly what the Red Sox saw in him before they acquired him, and why I find it so hard to believe that they would abandon their own evaluation of a 26 year old player less than a year later, after an injury depleted season. Unless they're afraid the injury will have a long term effect, or that his experience of the past year has soured him on playing in Boston to the point of no return, it would be stupid. They trusted their evaluation of him enough to trade two very good prospects for him less than a year ago. There is no valid reason for them not to continue to trust it now.

M2
09-26-2006, 01:06 PM
I don't think you're crazy at all. You're seeing exactly what the Red Sox saw in him before they acquired him, and why I find it so hard to believe that they would abandon their own evaluation of a 26 year old player less than a year later, after an injury depleted season. Unless they're afraid the injury will have a long term effect, or that his experience of the past year has soured him on playing in Boston to the point of no return, it would be stupid. They trusted their evaluation of him enough to trade two very good prospects for him less than a year ago. There is no valid reason for them not to continue to trust it now.

True enough. Sanity might prevail.

Cedric
09-26-2006, 01:07 PM
Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

His perception as a great defensive player is just that.

blumj
09-26-2006, 01:16 PM
Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

His perception as a great defensive player is just that.
He's not a great defensive player as a CF at all. Who is that's actually available, and has any offensive value whatsoever, and is as affordable, at least in salary? That's not exactly a long list.

M2
09-26-2006, 01:45 PM
Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

His perception as a great defensive player is just that.

Well, you haven't seen me use the word "great" in relation to his defense. You also won't see me use the word "terrible."

TeamSelig
09-26-2006, 01:58 PM
Range factor is a bad way to judge a players fielding range

Example:

Ken Griffey Jr.'s range was better in 2006, than 1990.

It's PO + A per game (9 innings).

What happens if balls aren't hit your way? You can only be so good to get to certain balls.

Basically, a player with great range and loaded with ground ball pitchers or something that would cause him to not have balls hit his way could have the same range as a player with decent range that has more opportunities.

maniem
09-26-2006, 05:28 PM
I don't think you're crazy at all. You're seeing exactly what the Red Sox saw in him before they acquired him, and why I find it so hard to believe that they would abandon their own evaluation of a 26 year old player less than a year later, after an injury depleted season. Unless they're afraid the injury will have a long term effect, or that his experience of the past year has soured him on playing in Boston to the point of no return, it would be stupid. They trusted their evaluation of him enough to trade two very good prospects for him less than a year ago. There is no valid reason for them not to continue to trust it now.

Sounds eerily similar to what the Reds did with some other 26 year old outfielder this year, wouldn't you say? I'm guessing the Sox won't make the same mistake as Krivsky, unless they do in fact seriously pursue Andruw Jones this winter.

Falls City Beer
09-26-2006, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't get worked up either way if the Reds acquired Crisp. However, I imagine a smart GM could find a player to put up similar numbers next season at a much lower price.

I'd look to make a sickeningly huge splash in the FA pitching department. Yeah, it's risky, but there are no other choices for acquiring the pitching the Reds need at the moment.

Go dumpster diving for most of the offense--maybe shell out a bit (in trade) for some power. Promote the minor leaguers very, very aggressively.